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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] What is an FPSC game worth

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Vindicator 209
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 00:47
so let me get this straight, a single model ALONE costs more then a whole game XD wow, thats...intersting....I guess this is what I get for being on a forum full of adults, them and their flashy money -.-'

lol anyway, I don't know how much £10 is worth, but I wouldn't pay more then $5 USD for an FPSC game, I think FPSC is just good for LAN arenas or giving to your friends to show 1337ness(heh), I personally use FPSC to play with...and it's really hard to get a friend to play a game with...

off topic: how do yo make that sign on your keyboard? £ (I copied and pasted =D ) I suppose alt + code would do...

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:02 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 01:05
You are 100% right Ben. I agree with you all the way.

For the longest time I've wanted to "create games" and when I say "create games" I actually mean to "create games" not just some buggy thing that you can steer around a map in.

TGC is clueless to what is going on in the world of FPSC. They are too focused on what they want. We have a suggestion board for a reason. I highly doubt that they even look at it. There has been 8 billion posts on vehicles. All TGC will ever say is, "well maybe someone will get around to that" that someone is supposed to be them. One of the reasons we came to FPSC is it's because it's a game engine that we can work with. Not all of us are super programmers which is generally why we chose FPSC. But all TGC seems to care about is getting rid of bugs. All they have done is create more bugs.

I hate to say this but the way that TGC is steering this version of FPSC. We may never see anything awe strucking coming from FPSC. I LOVE FPSC with every ounce of my bones but sticking with RC2 until I have enough money to buy vista and X10 (which is probably going to be buggy as well) isn't going to last with me too long.

I may never get a computer that can handle RC2. So this whole, I have to wait 57 minutes for a SINGLE level to load. Just isn't happening for me. Especially since afterwards, all I get is, you're amateur. Except from the MODs but they are supposed to be friendly. Now I know my computer doesn't meet the MINIMUN requirements, but come on TGC. The level I made for the Dec level contest I played on my cousins house which just meets the minimum req, and it still took almost 20 minutes to load.

I see all this talk about how FPSC is also cool because of how cheap it is. In know way is FPSC cheap. Maybe the actual engine itself. But if you have the engine itself and nothing more, you won't even make a good game for FPSC (typically.) Think about it, almost everyone on the forums have bought a model pack. I've purchased 3. That there is more than the engine. Also I've purchased Signs4 milkshape, there is another 40. That's $150 right there you just spent including the engine. And there are many other outside programs that are being purchased. And many have bought all the model packs.

The only way I see TGC being able to clean up there act is if they go back to RC2, forget about dark lights, which makes the FPS just horrible, and do something productive. I know I know, TGC is trying there best. But I least do your best in a direction that would help. You don't even have to forget about dark lights, just give an option whether we can use the original lighting or dark lights. That right there would save many problems.

All in all, FPSC is a great engine. It's just being lead in the wrong direction. RC2 is the most stable version. Work off that. But don't lead it the way you did already. Do some work on fixing quicker loading time, FPS. At least do something about Multi Player in the next year.

The way FPSC is designed. It is practically made for MP. Look at it this way. Halo levels are HUGE. Giant open areas mass terrain. But look at a lot of there MP levels. I made a few levels based on Halo 2. I made lockout, foundation, and Hang 'em High (from halo 1) And each level on MY computer takes 13-17 minutes to load and run at a constant 22-25 fps. I'm not comparing FPSC to halo, I'm just using it as an example. But since FPSC can't handle big areas and what not, it really can only handle one battle field. Which is all MP really is.

Remember though, I do love FPSC. And I'm always working on it. Sooner or later when I really realize TGC isn't going to do anything productive. I'm going to get into coding for DBP myself. Now I know that is going to be a while. But if TGC doesn't do anything I'll just have to leave FPSC and go to DBP.

FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:29
Okay...I gotta go with Ben on this.Forget all of the suggestions for a few and fix what's wrong with the engine.I want something stable and I want something that works on my pc...not an upgrade that only works on supercomputers.
FPSC worked (as well as it did) on pc with v1 and I expect the "final" version to work on it as well.
There is all the time in the world to incorporate suggestions into the engine.let's get it working right first.
I can tell you for a fact that FPSC is not going to go backwards.
The implementation of things such as DarkLights (such as it is) was necessary.
If TGC can work the bugs out of FPSC it will be a great engine to work with.
If not I think you are going to see people continue to leave and develop with other engines.

Zdrok
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:32
If I ever find a way to get my game(s) on disc, I'd ask for them to be put in the bargain bin, or in a box, marking the name of the game and the price. I'd be cheating of your money if I sold my game for more than $10, so I'd sell it for around $7.50. Of course, since my house is my game-making business, around 1/2 or 1/3 of the sales money would go to me. So I'd get $3.75 or $2.50 per buyer. If I get around 5 sales a day, and count up the money a week, I'd have AT LEAST $131.25 or $87.50 a week for a bargain game. Pretty good deal. But if the customer's unsatisfied with the game, I'll send back the amount they paid, and they'll send back the game, which I'll return to the store that sells my game.

I'd sell your games for about $7.50 (or how much money your country's curency is), because that'd be a pretty good deal.

GunCell: Chrome Soldier

Arriving in 2007.
Candle_
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:32
Let me know when it can do this and you will make lots of money with your games.


MY FPSC FILES

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Zdrok
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:47
I think you can already put your games on a disc, I just don't know how.

GunCell: Chrome Soldier

Arriving in 2007.
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:51 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 01:53
Candle, at least someone else is thinking around here That counts for Fred also

Quote: "Forget all of the suggestions for a few and fix what's wrong with the engine.I want something stable and I want something that works on my pc...not an upgrade that only works on supercomputers."


Did you ever realize that it's ever 18 months that FPSC was released and still Lee hasn't been able to develop one stable version..... 18 months we've been waiting for it, it sure is a long time waiting for something.

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Vindicator 209
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:00
Well now, see here, if people would be selling their games more then $10 USD, then they must be doin some hela modeling, and frow what I see on the web, you could sell models for over $100 per peice, beats $20 big if you ask me, but then again, I guess if your game is good, and lots of people buy it, you'd potentially make more money then selling models... Oh, and I also agree with Ben, and intresting post at that =P

Cheers!
~Vindicator


AutoIt is the future. obey.
Commander in Chief
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:04
Yeah jeez... this thread rocks. Congrats on a working, living, communicotical thread... (wth is communicotical?) Oh well. I want a stable release higher than 104 WITH SHADERS THAT WORK. IF I DONT GET MY SHADERS, I'LL, I'll!!!!!! *sigh* oh well. *slowly puts rifle back under desk*

---PARANOID PRODUCTIONS---
Vindicator 209
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:11
lol...w00t, 60th post! joo just got pwned!

sorry...like said before,FPSC is just a reeeaaaalllly cool toy, but don't expect a career in it...


AutoIt is the future. obey.
Zdrok
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:15
It's for budget game titles. Oh, sure, sure, you can make a game that's so cool you invite your fat friends over, and drink BEER!

Just kiddin', LOL. But really, think about other budget games. They look like they were made with FPSC, too! Gameplay beats graphics any day, my dear Watson.

GunCell: Chrome Soldier

Arriving in 2007.
filya
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:18
1. wow, I made uneven terrain. And look, no collision problems
2. I made a torch. Ofcourse its just a decal used for lighting.
3. Finally I got my enemy intelligent enough to shoot me, and not super-intelligent enough to shoot me through floors!

You call these achievements??? Yes I do!! For FPSC, these are great achievements!!

FPSC is at such a point even after a year of it being released that such trivial matters (which should be the basis of any engine!!!) are achievements in themselves.

Need I say more?


I just pity (also stare at awe!) people (like Butters, Ben) who have been trying to wring out every ounce of what FPSC could provide them to make a respectable game.
Instead of unleashing their talents elsewhere, they are (I am pretty sure!) forced to spend hours trial-rror testing their collision problems, the AI (Aweful Intelligence), and other bugs.
Heck they deserve something better than this!!

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:24 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 02:27
Quote: "I just pity (also stare at awe!) people (like Butters, Ben) who have been trying to wring out every ounce of what FPSC could provide them to make a respectable game.
Instead of unleashing their talents elsewhere, they are (I am pretty sure!) forced to spend hours trial-rror testing their collision problems, the AI (Aweful Intelligence), and other bugs.
Heck they deserve something better than this!!"


We all deserve better then this

You don't want to know how many countless hours I've spent on testing my FPSC projects, I wish no one has to go through all of that. I'm proud of what I've achieved with FPSC, but I'm not sure if it was worth it all. I could have released a sequel to DragonMania in the same time and that would have been much better time spent. (Unless everyone suddenly starts buying Commander Josh )

As for deserving better, I've found something better and I'm going to unleash my talents elsewhere, it's all taking up way too much of my time and I'm not going to wait another 18 months for TGC to fix FPSC. But I'm getting ahead of myself, the official announcement will follow perhaps within days, at the most a couple of weeks.

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:36
I do agree with you as well Fred. But I don't think Dark Lights was necessary. All Dark Lights did was massively slow my computer. If there was an option to go to the original and use Dark Lights. Then that would be helpful.

And yeah, they aren't going to go back, even though RC2 is the only version semi close to stable. I'm going to wait it out, but if FPSC doesn't go in any direction that can be considered good, I'll have to leave.

And why put suggestions aside? I was only using vehicles as an example. There have been TONS of suggestions with getting rid of certain bugs. And I haven't seen TGC do anything about it.

I do agree with you Fred, but I just don't see TGC doing anything productive.

FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:58
Quote: "I think you can already put your games on a disc, I just don't know how."


You open up the the FPS Creator\mygames folder,find the folder with your built game in it...if you game is named "you" then copy the whole "you" folder...not just the .exe...to (in my case it is the E:drive) whatever drive you burn your cds in and then Windows should burn a copy for you to a cd.
It might be nice if you zipped your file up (or better yet) got Vishnu for your games to protect the media in your game.
Now back on topic...
I am a big fan of FPSC.I have been using it for over a year and there quite a few things that you can overcome and/or circumvent with a little trial and error and a lot of patience.
Unfortunately after over a year some of the biggest problems with FPSC are still present...extremely large file sizes,issues with lag,IA (the kind of AI that filya is referring to),etc. still remain.
I am going to keep on using FPSC for some things one way or the other.I have too much time and energy invested in what I am working on.
But that is not to say I am not going to turn to other engines for other projects.
And I know for a fact seveal people have had to delay or cease working on their projects until a stable version is released.
It is frustrating after all of this time not to have a stable version of FPSC.
I like FPSC and I can use it for some things and some people are doing some truly amazing stuff with it.
Imagine what they can do with a stable version.
All we can do about that is be patient and wait for an update.

Thraxas
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 03:04
Quote: "All Dark Lights did was massively slow my computer"


I find this so strange as dark lights actually improved my levels speed... and also not having to wait 365 days to light map levels when building a game is glorious...

I've spent alot of time making 2 games with FPSC... both of which are now "technically" finished but I can't release either until a few bugs from the latest version are fixed... But I'm not holding my breath for any bug fixes in the near future as I believe all TGC efforts are presently going into the DirectX 10 versions of their products...

I also agree that while the engine itself is very cheap all the add-ons I have purchased to make my life easier have made it so that even if I did make a game good enough to sell I would have to sell lots to just break even...

I'm hoping that TGC make a stable version of FPSC soon as I would hate to see all my efforts go to waste with what I have produced so far, by not having anyone see them or play them... They may not be the next Half Life or FEAR but someone might enjoy them, even if only for a day...


RedneckRambo
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 04:29
Quote: "
I find this so strange as dark lights actually improved my levels speed"

Well my computer does horribly suck. I actually haven't EVER had any lightmap problems with the original lightmapping (from RC2 at least) and then I tried this Dark lights and BAM!!! Like an explosion hit my computer and I couldn't do anything it was SO slow.

Seerzack
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 10:22
I have some problem whit the freeweb when i'm adding files like image
movies... Help!

/seerzack
Van B
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 10:23
Quote: "If I normally paid 50.00 for a new and what I thought to exciting game, then I guess I would pay about the same for a game made with FPSC."


Come off it Xplosys. Your saying you'd be happy to pay $50 for a FPSC game?, when you could go get HL2 and the expansion pack?

I hope you take someone with you when you go looking for your first mortgage.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Seerzack
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 10:26
when I'm trying to add files nothing happens. never mind.

/seerzack
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 10:35
Quote: "But I don't think Dark Lights was necessary. All Dark Lights did was massively slow my computer. If there was an option to go to the original and use Dark Lights. Then that would be helpful."


I agree and I asked Lee about this, but he made it clear it's never going to happen. Even though DarkLights look very cool, for most of us it didn't bring the results why it was implemented, speed gain. Most of us have experienced a speed loss instead (not to mention other DL related problems). On thing strikes me in all of the updates..... Lee is trying to improve the speed of FPSC and take care of the lag issues, but until most of us experience the opposite with the updates. More lag and a speed loss, at times a lot of speed loss.

Quote: "I am a big fan of FPSC.I have been using it for over a year and there quite a few things that you can overcome and/or circumvent with a little trial and error and a lot of patience.
Unfortunately after over a year some of the biggest problems with FPSC are still present...extremely large file sizes,issues with lag,IA (the kind of AI that filya is referring to),etc. still remain."


I'm a big fan of FPSC also, but that is excactly what worries me... after numerous updates we still face the same issues and some of them even got worse.

Quote: "I am going to keep on using FPSC for some things one way or the other.I have too much time and energy invested in what I am working on"


I've got lots of time and energy invested also, we all know that, but I'm not going to put anymore into it. Using FPSC is consuming too much of my time and the results are not a reflection of that invested time, energy and effort at all. For me the time/effort/energy doesn't ratio the results at all, so for me it's not worth it anymore. There are good alternatives and if I spent the time I'm waiting for TGC to clean up it's act, I may as well put that into a proven engine and get results.

Seeing TGC only made issues worse with FPSC after all these numerous updates, I'm going to bet on a different horse, one that at least has proven itself to be a winner.

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xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 15:02 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 15:17
Quote: "I hope you take someone with you when you go looking for your first mortgage."


You're very amusing but try to read the whole post. The point is that if a game is made well and fun to play, I don't care who made it with what. I would pay for it and so would most people if they didn't know the engine. You're just used to what you see here made by young individuals with little experience. If FPSC were to be used by a talented team, like every other game is made, the results would be very different.

No, we're not going to make HL2 with FPSC, but that's not the point or the goal. It's just to make a decent, fun to play game that would sell. I think it can be done, but not by one person in short order.

We'll also probably never make a living selling FPSC games, but that wasn't the question. If I remember correctly, it was something like "What is an FPSC game worth?". I still stick to my answer. If it's a great game and fun to play, it's worth as much as the other great and fun to play games out there, even if it is made with FPSC. The problem with getting as much as other games is one of marketing and notoriety, but that's a different subject.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Seerzack
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 15:39
Thanks you have give me a lot of help.

/seerzack
KeithC
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 15:48
I have to agree with Brian a bit. I still think alternate uses with FPSC can yield surprising results (such as the maze/puzzle levels). How about creating a nice shooting gallery game?

Even though most people would probably choose HL2 over a very well done FPSC game....what if they've already played HL2, and all the other top of the line games to be had? Maybe they'll pick up a copy of the FPSC game, just for something different. It's just still too early to write off FPSC yet...even with the hair-pulling bugs. We're all too biased here because we know where all the material comes from...we're saturated with it. Somebody off the street may look at screenshots of Pointless Assault, DF2, Wehtam's game (sorry, forgot the name), and a few others.......and say "Wow, that looks great". If the framerate will ever be improved (measurably), and the insanely large file sizes can be tamed....I can see good things ahead. Of course it's always "if".

-Keith

xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:08
Quote: "Somebody off the street may look at screenshots of Pointless Assault, DF2, Wehtam's game (sorry, forgot the name), and a few others.......and say "Wow, that looks great"."


Case in point: The fpsFREE screen shot competition.

The judges for the comp were friends of mine, along with some friends of theirs that I do not know. They are all gamers of one genre or another and although some of them have heard me talk about FPSC, none of them are FPSC owners or forum members. All of them, 100% were taken by Slayer Simons' screen shot and though it would be an exciting game. And as any of you who have seen it knows, it is 100% TGC original content.

We're just too close to the program and familiar with it's issues and content to be subjective about what others will think of the finished product.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:11
Quote: "Wehtam's game (sorry, forgot the name),"

I believe it's "Beyond Life". I do agree with you KeithC but it's just the way TGC has been leading FPSC. I'm getting worried. I'll stick it out with FPSC. But if it never improves. I'll have to move to DBP.

Van B
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:13
HL2 can justify it's price, that's all.

$50 for a FPSC game, exactly how special does a game have to be to claim the same price as the whole damn engine costs?

Imagine Unreal Tournament '07 costing $60,000 or whatever and you have a comparison.

FPSC games will NEVER sell at $50 - when someone sells a FPSC game for that sort of money, well I'll eat my hat.

I'm not saying FPSC games are worthless, I'm saying people just will not pay a lot for them, it's a budget market engine, accept it please. I'd probably get more from a FPSC game than other budget titles, so I'd say they'd make good games in comparison to the usual crud you get for the money - but going head to head with commercial PC games is just rediculous, anyone who can't see that should have their reality gland checked out.

Thing is, I'm imagining what would happen, if someone paid that for a FPSC creation, got it home, then got really annoyed at the fact that the whole package costs about the same as this one game, the fact that it was made in a game creation package in the first place, the fact that perhaps all the creator had to do was drag and drop themselves a game. It's not as simple as that I know, but consider your average punter - how simple are they gonna see it when they get this game home and realise what it is and how it was made. There's no hiding from FPSC's engine - when people get some game and it doesn't shape up - often they go looking for it online, hopefully get a patch, or see if they have a common problem, so don't think for one second that the FPSC engine can be buried with custom media, people love to stab at commercial games that don't shape up. I think anyone spending that money would be hella annoyed at the creator.

Some people think they can take FPSC, make a game, sell it, and make money - these people need a shot of reality. Selling a game for $10 is sensible IMO, because it's risk money - if you spend $10 on a game and it's not exactly cutting edge, then you tend not to care, you can forgive it, and maybe even realise that it's made by a very small team, and actually appreciate the good qualities because the bad ones are just petty at that sorta price.

I argue that FPSC will never be able to make a fully commercial game that would compete with modern FPS games - not slurring FPSC here, I'm saying be realistic, be cheap, and you'll have far less angry customers after you. I'd say the same for a DBPro game, budget is where we belong, and I say it's not such a bad place to be.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:27 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 16:32
Quote: "Of course it's always "if"."


Yep, and that's the problem.....

Quote: "I argue that FPSC will never be able to make a fully commercial game that would compete with modern FPS games - not slurring FPSC here, I'm saying be realistic, be cheap, and you'll have far less angry customers after you. "


That's another problem.... some people aren't realistic over here at all. they think FPSC can compete with modern FPS games. It can hardly compete with Quake 1 and HL1, it's foolish to even try going head to head with more modern fps games.

I think people around here should really start playing some of the demos of indie games being sold and try other indie fps games. Then you'll quickly notice how limited and outdated FPSC really is.

Quote: "It's just still too early to write off FPSC yet..."


I'm beginning to fear that even Lee has done this already. FPSC X10 isn't based on FPSC V1 at all and seeing how quite he has been lately and how much time he devotes on FPSC X10 (and after that DBX10, I'm having my doubts. I'm afraid once X10 is out we're left in the cold, contrary to what may have been claimed, since FPSC V1 is a pain even for Lee, after all the hard work he's done on it, it only has become more of a mess, instead of less.

I don't have much hope for an application that hasn't been fixed or at least is stable after 18 months after it's initial release.

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Locrian
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:27
It's so hard to say. I don't think we've really seen a really well made FPSC game yet. FOTF has many innovations, but the looks put it in odd style. I personally love Butters modeling for its caricatures quality and stylishness, but others may not. The public is fickle. Dark factions first game ran like crap. Not sure about his second one but all I've seen is like one wall texture. Wizard of Id's games we never see any enemies in and thus far is "pointless". Ben's commander josh game or whatever was kinda goofy. Like a space watergun deal...not seeing the appeal. Lons pencil Wipped game, I haven't seen anything from in ages, and bottom line isn't completed. Rolfys not made an actual game yet, as I think he's still in his development period, but his Urban game is some of the best looking stuff I've seen yet(mine included), but dose he have the storyline and characters to back up his wonderful sets.

I really don't think we've seen the best that can come from FPSC. With the exception of S4 and myself there really aren't any teams, and you can not...I don't care what you say...do everything yourself. It's impossible to be great at every aspect that needs to go into a game.Scripts,mucic,graphics,modeling,etc,all

I think if you could put a team together of like all the top guys, and make it work where personalities didn't conflict, you could make a hl2 quality game. Its boundaries aren't that far removed from FPSC actually. And many people are proving games can be made with no lag. The problem is make a game is overwhelming, and I think many of them come up short.

Can you imagine a game made by the team of: Airslide,Butter,Rolfy,Errant,WizardofId,Other top guys...

Im yet to see a completed game with all of these in one game.
Great original Characters
great textures
script innovations
good story line
great playability
no lag

Though many may have several of these qualities, all thus far fall a little short in one area or another, and this includes the game I'm working on. I don't think you can make a game, like HL2 that took 5 years by a brilliant team, by one person in 6 months. Other then Lons game, I don't know any that took much longer to develop.

I just don't think we've seen the best yet...we see bits and pieces of it scattered from one top member to another....
xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:31
Quote: "but going head to head with commercial PC games is just rediculous, anyone who can't see that should have their reality gland checked out."


I'm not sure why you're stuck on that or why you continue to talk down to those with differing opinions, but no one here ever said such a thing. If it's about my comment and the $50.00, please re-read the post. I was making a point and went on to say that I would never pay $50.00.

The question is, how much is an FPSC game worth, not how well does it relate to HL2. That has already been conceded. I still think you're thinking this through as a developer and not an end user, but that's your opinion and I respect that. To me, when people get the game home and play it, even if they think it's crap and they got ripped off, they are not going to have any knowledge of the engine or how much it cost, or how much time it took to make, etc unless you put that info on the box.

We also already know that we don't have the name or resources to go head to head with the big game companies. I'm just not sure what your argument is. How much is an FPSC game worth?

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:37
Quote: "I think if you could put a team together of like all the top guys, and make it work where personalities didn't conflict, you could make a hl2 quality game. Its boundaries aren't that far removed from FPSC actually. "


I completely disagree with you, HL2 and FPSC are worlds apart.

Quote: "Can you imagine a game made by the team of: Airslide,Butter,Rolfy,Errant,WizardofId,Other top guys..."


Last remark.... I can imagine that, the only issue would be using FPSC.

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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:43 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 16:56
Your post:

Quote: "If I normally paid 50.00 for a new and what I thought to exciting game, then I guess I would pay about the same for a game made with FPSC.

We have an advantage, if you will, knowing the software and our capabilities with it which makes us think the games should carry a lower price. If someone with exceptional skill made an exciting and good looking game with FPSC, why would it not sell for more than $10.00? I think we're basing our price on what we have seen so far, or what we are personally capable of, which in my opinion is not anything ready for sale.

That being said, I would never pay $50.00 for a new game. I always wait for reviews and enough time to pass that the price will come down. If the game is still around and the price remains high for some time, then it's a good game."


Paragraph 1 you seem to be saying you'd pay $50 if you thought it was worth it.
Paragraph 3 you seem to be saying you'd never pay $50 for a game.

Your overall point seems to be that you don't see FPSC games as less valuable than traditional commercial titles.

But, I'm not just responding to you, I'm offering my opinions based on peoples opinions - particularily to those saying that FPSC could make a commercially competing game.
I don't think I'm talking down to anyone, I'm remarking on how rediculous it would be to charge very much.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Locrian
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:52 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 16:57
I don't think they are Ben(worlds apart). The engine may be that's for sure, but the game play can be mimic'd closely. I personally have played with hl2, or Fear, or COD and think..."I can do that" "I can get that effect". There are things you can't do. But so much of it you can.

I think all over you see people doing the things you see in games like Fear and hl2(look at Butters shock trooper where a particle like effect is shown for it's shield aura when shot). Though for sale now, your seeing butters LyteFx which emulate games like Splintercell. It's just you don't see any one game with all these innovations. That's where the problem lies in creating something that could really be commercial.

I don't think I can sell my game for 50$. But I can see 20$ all day, specialy when I'm selling the media rights for that amount. But I can see a 10$ version, Vishnu packaged, selling easy for 8-10$.
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 17:25
I think instead of thinking you should give it a try

Make the super game you're talking about it, release it, see what happens and then we'll talk again. I seriously doubt you can pull it off with FPSC.

Not that I don't want you to succeed, I just doubt FPSC can handle it and create something that good.

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filya
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 17:34
The question isnt what you can do with FPSC. With enough effort, time and commitment you can just about do ANYTHING!!

The question is...is it all worth that much! You can spend 2 years trying to make a great game with FPSC having spent $50 on it. But if you can do the samething in 1 year with en engine worth $150, is it not sensible to use that engine then? Or it your 1 year worth less than $100?

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 18:00
Quote: "The question is...is it all worth that much! You can spend 2 years trying to make a great game with FPSC having spent $50 on it. But if you can do the samething in 1 year with en engine worth $150, is it not sensible to use that engine then? Or it your 1 year worth less than $100?"


Well that sounds like your trying to figure out if it's going to be profitable, which again, is not the question here.

This has obviously gone from a "How much is an FPSC game worth" to a "FPSC will never make HL2" conversation, so I will restate my answer and call it a day.

A good FPSC game is worth as much as any other good game.... no more or less, and if for whatever reason you can't make a good game with it then you should definitely move on to something with which you can.

Just my opinion.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Locrian
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 18:38
Ben your missing everything. I think I've said "Mine included" but since you don't mind trying to call me out, I'm going be honest here.

Ben I think your biggest problem is yourself....Not the engine. And no offence on this. I know you worked hard on your game. I just don't think you'll see many sales because of how commander josh looks. I mean I'm not going to buy the game to see it's got great playability, when the graphics look old school, and no real plot of character development in the story. And nothing wrong with that. It's 20 times better then most the people on both the FPSC and DBP(as well as most engines) looks. But it just don't look good enough that 'I'd' buy it. And you can say I'm dogging you out or whatever, but most people world wide, don't know what FPSC is. What engine you made it with is of very lil concern to the people viewing that site where your selling it. What dose matter is how it looks....and it falls short man. If your screenshots for that game reflected Rolfy's exteriors and Wizards interior...Errants guns....JonnyLee's characters...you'd get sales...end of story.

It's not that I'm trying to be mean here, but I'm kinda tired of listening to you whine and no ones telling you how it is. Yes there are problems with the engine but the biggest problem with Ben's games is Ben.

Your game just doesn't look good enough to buy to the majority of the people wanting to buy an indie game. I'm not trying to say mine does. I'll see that I guess when ever I can get it finished. I know the modeling community likes the work, but they know what work goes into it, so they are appreciating the work as well as the visual. They don't really count. The public does not care about all that. The only thing they look at are the graphics. And when I finally post my game on another site that has nothing to do with development, I'll see if my work stands up well enough to the publics eye, just has you've done. Theres no guarantee on the work you did getting a return.
filya
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 19:37
Quote: "What engine you made it with is of very lil concern to the people viewing that site where your selling it. What dose matter is how it looks...."


precise...very precise.
That is why I keep saying that you need to put in amazing efforts in a FPSC game to make it sellable.

For those who are talking about how games made with FPSC can sell as well as others, I don't mean to doubt you. They can, yes. But it would take years of effort to make something of that quality. That same game could be developed using a slightly higher priced engine in half the time.
The decision is yours. What you value more...a year of effort (just debugging and testing basic stuff!!) or spending maybe $100 more.

According to me...there are a few things needed for a game to sell.

1) Looks : This is what a person sees first in a game, before deciding to buy or even dowload a demo!
This includes models, textures, lighting, interface.

2) Awe : Once your demo is downloaded, this is what makes the player like your game. The start, the features, the first level etc. You need to impress your user as much as you can at this point.

3) Game play : This matters ONLY once your game is bought, or you user sticks long enough to your demo.
This is what will get you reviews, word-of-mouth sale etc.

But without the first 2 (mainly first) factors, its hard to sell a game (atleast to me)!!

Now the 'Looks' are not very related to FPSC. They are more to your modelling skills...but then how good can everything look boxed up? You need a variety of terrain, environment etc to get the 'looks' factor up. FPSC, for now, is quite limited to indoors. Outdoors, jungle, streets etc is possible, but with much difficulty with framerates. This is where FPSC lets us down.

The 'awe' factor is a bigger problem with FPSC. You may make great screenies and models etc to get your demo to the user. But when he start playing...do you think he would be impressed when :
a) He shoots at the enemy and the enemy does something stupid like walk to a wall?
b) When the player or enemy gets stuck on some terrain?
c) He enters a room with decent furniture and some nicely placed debris etc...and suddenly he gets framerate issues?
d) When he plays for 15 minutes, but he keeps seeing the same rooms, corridors, stairs and no change in enironment?

I dont think he will stick to playing the demo after that.

And you think he will buy your game now??

There goes your gameplay and replayability. Your game may be real fun to play as the levels progress. It may be fun to try different routes and strategies to complete your game. But how will the user know all this unless he buys it first??

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 19:55
To be really honest and with out being offensive or rude. FPSC user base at this time is not really showing us what FPSC can do look at the NIVDIA game from alemar with a little time and effort you can create wonders.

The best response here would be to most people don’t quite your day job…yet

Now just imagine if the best FPSC users come together to build a game do you really think that it would not be possible to create a triple a game…


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filya
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 20:12
Quote: "Now just imagine if the best FPSC users come together to build a game do you really think that it would not be possible to create a triple a game…"


they would create the best of models, the best of textures, the best of scripts, the best of levels, the best of gameplay...

...and then they would be restricted by FPSC's limitations...

they would have to try a work-around to get an outdoor environ, they would have to try a work-around to making the enemy smarter, they would have to try a work-around to get better framerates, they would have to try a work-around to get things like projectiles, armor, torchlight, etc in the game

So all they would do is try a work-around solution for their needs, which should have been fulfilled by the engine in the first place.

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 20:20
Quote: "Quote: "Now just imagine if the best FPSC users come together to build a game do you really think that it would not be possible to create a triple a game…"

they would create the best of models, the best of textures, the best of scripts, the best of levels, the best of gameplay...

...and then they would be restricted by FPSC's limitations...

they would have to try a work-around to get an outdoor environ, they would have to try a work-around to making the enemy smarter, they would have to try a work-around to get better framerates, they would have to try a work-around to get things like projectiles, armor, torchlight, etc in the game

So all they would do is try a work-around solution for their needs, which should have been fulfilled by the engine in the first place."
Do you even know what this engines limitations are..???


Pointless Assault RC1 Demo
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Locrian
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 20:46 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 20:49
Sure do. Not as many as everyone complains about. The problems there are with the engine, can for the most part be worked around. I remember people crying that version 1 lagged so bad they couldn't play the games. Thats only because the game maker didn't have a clue of how to put the game together. I've never had a level run(in its revised state) under 28 fps with all my triggers and characters in place(and that includes the cpu suckin bond1 sexy.bip running on one character). At times do you have to revise your map to get things to work? Sure. But it's all doable.

It's the designer far more then the engine. Tired of hearing people whine.

And filya it's all been done at one time or another. Butters has made better scripts....others have made workable outsides. Limitations are a cap your putting on things. Butters/rolfy/errant/ets are taking stuff way beyond because it's doable. And it's pulled off with a pretty high level of realism.

Point is the engines more limited by the developer then it self.
FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 20:48 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 20:57
Quote: "Do you even know what this engines limitations are..???"


I think he has a pretty good idea...he listed some of them in an earlier post.
I know I have a good idea of what they are.
I could (and have done so in the past) give you a nice list...but I won't.
The simple matter is that in its current state you might be able to make a good game with FPSC...might...
The are still quite a few issues with FPSC that need to be worked out before anybody is going to do anything top of the line with FPSC.
Everything filya said is true.There is nobody here or anywhere else that can dispute it.
I have played a few FPSC games/demos that were fun to play.
With the exception of a handful (like less than five) they were not worth buying.
Some of them had potential if the developer continued working on them...but five...maybe...that I have played were worth buying if and/or when they ever get finished.
And I am sure there is a growing list of people who have either had to stop their projects or go on to other engines because of some of the issues in FPSC.
Now I am not going to bash FPSC and all of the members that have been here a while know the limitations of the software and all of that.
Just some points:
Without a team you are not going to pull of a top game...it's not going to happen.As has been stated earlier no one person is good at everything.In my case I am using media and such that I have either download for free thanks to the generous forum members who have contributed or I have purchased it.Before I complete my game quite a bit of the models in it will be ones that I made...but I can't carry a tune in a bucket.So I have to get my music elsewhere since I can't make it.

Until a stable version of FPSC is released you are going to have quite a bit of difficulty making a top game.
If you make a level that is tunning visually chances are the lag is so great its like watching a slideshow.

Most of the developers here that are putting forth better games are not close to releasing their games anyways.I've been working on my game for over a year and it's not close to being done.

I think that someobdy can sell an FPSC game.I do think we need to be realistic about it though.
Unless you have some amazing hook or trick up your sleeve to sell your game or to make it stand out don't expect to get rich quick.

Edit:I almost forgot to address this...
Quote: "FPSC user base at this time is not really showing us what FPSC can do look at the NIVDIA game from alemar with a little time and effort you can create wonders."


You are talking about a game that you haven't played.
Who is this Alemar?I don't remember seeing him post in the FPSC forums.
And I didn't really care for the game based on the way it looks anyways but that's just my personal opinion.
You can't take a few screenshots from somebody and go "Wow!It's Halo 3!"
There are some forum members around here...
Loc for example...
Who appear to be putting forth A+ efforts around here...
I can think of other examples as well.
But Loc knows the score and how things work.He and s4 also have some top notch skills.
At any rate this discussion is just going to continue endlessly,it appears.

wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:14
This engine doesn't have limitation per say.More simply what it can do and can't do.

There is a reason why people picked this tool above others not because it lacked features the sooner you start working with what you have the sooner you will start being more productive.

Again this engine is not limited infact it's better than most engines on the market right now.

And I'll say it again I'm dissapointed with what this forum has come up with lately.As soon as every one is on the same standard every one this going to keep pushing the engine in the gutter and blaming bugs as the cause of their bad development.


Pointless Assault RC1 Demo
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Locrian
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:15 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 21:17
@Fred,
Yeah I figured $8.00. Maybe 10$ on the no media version at it's highest. I've looked at a lot of indie games for sale, and that was kinda my take on a game that's indie and has a ton of work in it. I think maybe I can get 20$ for the full version only because that version I'd market to indie devs and the sheer amount of decent models and characters in it, people will jump on.

@Anyone

Is 20$ max to a few people a good return for a years work...lol. Well no. I just get tired of the people whining, that I don't really see come up with any innovations to push the engine in some odd direction.

If you want your game to play a movie before the actual game without the use of some 2nd party app like game cover....code it in. We have for SinninSoul and helps the look to be more pro.

Want your menu to have other pages or descriptions of your characters, or a credits page...code it in...It's doable, but most menus I see look lame and are never any more then start,load,and quit with lame splash screens.

And that's not even getting into the game. My point is from the get go, people just aren't trying hard enough(or they don't have that skill and thats where they need a partner).

Most of what people need to make a game come off even semi-pro is there. You just gotta get off your butt and do some work and quit crying.

Askin me if I know what the limitations are......Yeah I know um. And his name is Eric
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:25
Quote: "Again this engine is not limited infact it's better than most engines on the market right now."


I'm sorry to say so but the statements are getting more and more absurd. I only have to look at the Torque engine and 3D GameStudio A6 to know that your statement is far from the truth.

There's only one way to end this discussion and that is for someone to create a full commercial valid game and even those who are saying FPSC is working fine and has no limitations (I'm not even sure if you use the same engine as I do) have not managed to do so up till now. I'm not talking about one level, we all manage that, the challenge is create a full game with FPSC that is truly marketable.

We hardly see finished projects around here and we've seen some talented people leaving lately, tired of struggling with FPSC.

I guess that's the challenge and all I can do is wish you much luck, very much luck, you're going to need it.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:48
Quote: "I'm sorry to say so but the statements are getting more and more absurd. I only have to look at the Torque engine and 3D GameStudio A6 to know that your statement is far from the truth."
In the same price range 3D gamestudio standard edition sucks compared to FPSC and torque how many addons do you have to buy before you get shaders ect...

Get your facts straight.Why do I know this.Well lets see I have 3D gamestudio Pro edition have a older version of torque.Have a few other engine lisences as well.

In the same price range there isn't any thing close to what FPSC supply's including media....?Get realistic.


Pointless Assault RC1 Demo
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Candle_
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:50
I'm going to try and make a little adventure game with fpsc and I know it's limits so I know what i can do and can't do.
But there is no shooting , not a lot of NPC , just a lot of puzzles like any adventure game has.
Going to be on one level so that will be the hard part to kepp the speed up and run good.


MY FPSC FILES
darimc
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 22:01
I got the vista trial and it corrupted my hard drive.

go to:
www.freewebs.com/futurefps
www.chainoffreedom.com.piczo.com
Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 22:12 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 22:14
Quote: "In the same price range there isn't any thing close to what FPSC supply's including media....?Get realistic."


We're not talking media, we're talking engines and if you have both of those you SHOULD know how much better they are then FPSC.

Next thing you're going to say FPSC is better then DBPro?

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