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Work in Progress / N.F.P.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th May 2003 15:44 Edited at: 9th May 2003 15:44
Our animation artist Brendon has been working on our Goblin monster and has made a preview for his walk and run animation cycles. What do you think?

http://freescape.successionthebetrayal.com/animdemo.zip




Pneumatic Dryll
D Man
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Posted: 9th May 2003 18:06
Looks really good!

God is real, unless declared integer.
Dark Mecha
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Posted: 9th May 2003 21:10
looks fat and cool,nice hands

I DO NOT EXIST
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th May 2003 22:16
i'd say you animator needs some more time practising his skills, aside from that - that ran increadible slow on my system, it's hard to say if it was because of the program or because of the animation ... but it seems very slow and not synced properly.
Also the loop was very, iffy

kinda looks like someone has stuck a rod up the things ass and started to slap it to make it move.
but i guess it can only get better...
i'd STRONGLY suggest however is developing these mesh to make them with less polygons, or at the very least put it through Multires and set it to 50%

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th May 2003 02:08
Thankyou for the compliments guys and the constructive criticism Raven.

I will not reduce the polycount needlessly because at the moment we are well within our polygon targets. The game is running happily on all of our development systems and the models are looking lovely (I think) with their high poly counts.

I think the problem you have with the loop is because the animation player doesn't like your machine, that's a shame because this is the only player I care to use before the game goes final - as I don't want the models ripped and nothing else I am aware of can read the format.

I find Brendon's work to be of a high standard and i'm sorry you didn't like the animation Raven - if you want to join the team and animate some of the other characters i'd be more than happy to accomodate you, if you are able to work at the Banshee development pace that is.

In the meentime we'll try and get some more previews out to you all soon

Pneumatic Dryll
Cras
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Posted: 10th May 2003 17:27
looking good... i think raven got carried away with putting it down since it looks nothing like someone has stuck a rod up his arse... his running movements are more human like that my own
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th May 2003 20:35
maniac the movement is a standard biped animation, which has been left in place.
it looks like he's using a Zero-G exercise machine, also what IS the target polygon range?

because i'm currently developing something specifically for highend cards and i'm not going to be using over 400,000 polygons perscene which means around 3,000-6,000 percharacter... and from the looks of that little guy he is using just over 10,000.

if you need extra detail, then setup pixel shaders to do per-pixel-lighting - even still you're market is not going to be one of the highend computer users, only the developers around here have highend machines (and believe it or not that is still only a very small percentage of the users here)

to me if my Althon 900Mhz w/GeForce2 GTS can't handle something at an acceptable speed then it is considered a rethink on how it is developed because it is FAR TOO SLOW for users.
Also alot of the technique is passing off to the user the fact that 15fps looks like 30fps and such...

this would be problem 1 - the models animation IS NOT interpol synced to the FPS, it should be ... else unless the end user is getting the exact right FPS then it'll look wrong.
secondly is to setup the controls oblivious to the fps and update the cameras movement to react to the system timer not the loop sync.

low-polygon modelling is becomming a lost art i think, everyone seems to believe that thier hardware will make up for any speed lost due to the extra polygons - they look screenshots from games like Doom3 and think "oh they have tonnes of polygons" and thats oki...
problem is what people don't see is that the doom3 models are almost all under 4,000 polygons (which is less than most current games like UT2K3 and JK2, etc...) and all of the smoothing and texture effects are Vertex & Pixel Shaders at work.

with a good pixel shading routine you can make 4,000 polygons look like 40,000 because the shading algorithm is better - you add a bumpmap into the shading as your doing it and finally add a subtle selfshadowing effect, and you find that your saving ALOT of processing power but having unbelieveable detail within a model.

if you want a true representation of what i mean download the Fairy demo movie from nVidia.co.uk - because that model is only 6,000 but looks upto cinematic specs of tens of thousands.
but then again that is no different a technique than what the CGR Engineers have been doing for movies for years - which is why Renderman is such a popular render program along with Softimage or Maya for producing movies - becuase you can create Shader Textures that give ALOT more detail than pure polygonated models ever could.

becoming an artist is about learning the balance you have to mark between what you texture for detail and what you polygon for shading.
At the end of the day thats all the models are there to do, allow for more realistic shading outlines which the ending can translate in a 3D space rather than in a 2D space.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th May 2003 21:41 Edited at: 10th May 2003 21:41
I always respect what you have to say Rob, but you've made some oversights i'd like to correct.

Quote: "the models animation IS NOT interpol synced to the FPS, it should be"


This is not the game, this is a piece of model viewing software that we're using to distribute a preview animation of one of the games model. As you are no doubt aware i'm a big advocate of making DB software run at the same speed on all machines and have given source code away to achieve this dozens of times.

Quote: "i'm not going to be using over 400,000 polygons perscene"


This would require hardware well above what this game is running sucessfully on, the characters are all circa 10,000 polygon, the scenery never takes up more than 5,000 polygon at the moment. We have two characters onscreen for most scenes and are therefor hitting 25,000 polygons. If we had 30characters onscreen that would be another matter, but we don't.

Quote: "low-polygon modelling is becomming a lost art i think"


It is an art not lost at Banshee, just check our model downloads for evidence! Nick is rapidly becomming an excellent low polygon modeller. Sure he's not at your standard, but like most of us here this is a hobby - not a £400,000 a year job. I bet you my left leg you cannot cook aswell as Nick does, and i'm confident that you've not had rock stars and royalty compliment your audervs.

Quote: "with a good pixel shading routine you can make 4,000 polygons look like 40,000 "

Quote: "learning the balance you have to mark between what you texture for detail and what you polygon for shading"


You may notice that the model is still untextured (your own advice to me was to animate first then texture), and it's not even running in the game engine yet therefor there is no pixel shading. Now as it happens i've not looked at pixel shaders yet as i'm still learning but if I work them out before releasing this game it'll have them, if not the models will still look pretty good - especially for a freeware game - infact I think they knock the socks off everything i've seen so far in other DB games.

Now let's get down to business: This is the best that the Banshee team are able to do at the moment, remember for a second that Banshee are amateurs. We feel that this model, and the game that is evolving (see our work in progress section for more info) is of high quality for a freeware game.

We're not trying to get this published by EA, we'll probably give it away for free or possibly shareware. I think the evidence of what we've released so far demonstrates that this game will be significantly better than most of the so-called commercial projects i've seen on these boards but does that meen we should be judged as professionals? Take a look at our webpage, what does the second line say? "Non-Commercial Software House".

I had the vacancy for a model rigger and animator open for about two months before Brendon stepped forwards, and I know you where aware of the trouble I was having in finding someone with the skills to do it because I spoke to you about it, perhaps if you spent as long typing your replies up doing some of the models and animations for us then we wouldn't be walking around with sticks up our arses.

We will get there Raven, but please, let us take one step at a time rather than try to write the all-in-one super game with everything and fail like every other FF-MMORG around here.

Pneumatic Dryll
NickIgoe
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Posted: 11th May 2003 21:48
Its Hors-Duerves

Nick Igoe
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th May 2003 22:38
Well you should know your the *%£( chef.

Pneumatic Dryll
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 01:48
Download updated.

Pneumatic Dryll
Cash Curtis III
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Posted: 13th May 2003 03:02
funny goblin

Cras
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Posted: 13th May 2003 14:47
well i think its funny when u modellers go off on one with all these complicated words... none of it makes any sense to me, although the extent of my modelling has been a helecopter which looks like budgie the little helecopter from the tv program... neway, is n.f.p. a fighting game? i cant remember.
Danmatsuma
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Posted: 13th May 2003 15:35
Hehe, mischevious. You have a style which shows through in both your 2d and 3d stuff pneumatic, 'tis a good thing (haven't checked out the animation yet though)

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
Eric T
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Posted: 13th May 2003 15:41
maniac,

these words make good sense.....to programnmers....if you ain't a programmer i suggest you read a programmers bible and learn what some of these words are.

-Eric

I always win don't you know that?
Programming RPG games in Dark Basic
Since 1999.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:49
rofl Maniac, it can't be that complicated because I understand them!

<------ neanderthol

Pneumatic Dryll
kfoong
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:52
It doesnt work... It says 'unable to set graphics mode'.

Quote from my brother:
Quote: " Patience is a virtue... I know that but how does that help me? "

http://www.stellarblue.vze.com/
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 17:45
Quote: "You have a style which shows through in both your 2d and 3d stuff pneumatic, 'tis a good thing "


You hear that !? I got style.

Quote: "'unable to set graphics mode'"


I'm sorry but the application was written by Forest Mark studios so I don't really know what it is doing, i'm told DirectX7 is required and that's all I know.

In the not too distant future, a month or two, I hope to have the first playable demonstration written in the games own DBPro engine, you can see it then

Pneumatic Dryll
Cras
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Posted: 13th May 2003 19:46
to be a programmer you dont need to know all the fancy words for things, im obviously demonstrating that.. i tend to refer to everything by what it does... rather than the name given to it. yusuke i think that was a very unfair comment in a poor attempt to put me down... very friendly, the no.1 objective on these forums, it would seem.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 20:48
It takes time to learn the lingo in any past-time or hobby.

Would you believe i've had some experience as a sailor - but there is a whole other language that yachtsmen speak and I can't understand a word of it.

I can fathom out what rigging is, and how to pull it to adjust the sails - and I pretty much know when and how to do these tasks. What I can't do is follow the instruction of 'lower the transom and raise the mainstay to 3/4 threshold and clear the jibs rigging of the cleat on the footdeck, when you've done that notify the harbour authority of our entrance on the demarkation channel for southern entry on a crossing wind... yada yada yada....' where-as just 'sail over there' would have done nicely and achieved the same thing.

Having said that, the lingo comes in time and you will adapt as your skills improve - but you'll never stop descovering new words. It may seem amusing but recently on the team requests forum I asked for a boner. Apparantly they are called riggers. Notch that one down to experience and move on...

Pneumatic Dryll
Cras
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Posted: 14th May 2003 00:32
lol... why on earth did you cofuse it with boner... its not a matter of knowing lingo. Its just everytime raven goes off on one i just get lost. I dont like long posts much, thats probably why. becides even if i didnt know the lingo, it makes me no lesser programmer, maybe not quite as gooder one, but still, i have plenty of time to figure out the use of pixel shading. Im only 16, been programming since i was about 8, so i havent really had much need to look to complicated stuff yet, although recently ive began exploring some pretty useful commands ive never used. Ive also probably used darkbasic for one of the longest times here. I literally bought it when it 1st came out. There was only 1 or 2 pages of pics in the galleries section... thats how long ago.
Rob K
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Posted: 14th May 2003 02:56
@Pneumatic Drill

Personally I thought that the model was excellent and the animation was top notch too. If I saw that in a commercial game I'd be quite happy with it. Raven's comments were somewhat unfounded. I am not a modeller myself (as in not a SKILLED modeller), but I know enough to appreciate the enormous amount of effort that goes into these things.

As for the pixel-shading buisness, most PCs will NOT have pixel-shader capability by the time your game is released, so by all means, have it as a feature on high-end machines, but don't worry about it too much.

The only thing I would bear in mind is that the poly count is pretty high, if you have little on scene, then fine, it is worth the extra polys, but surely there will be more than one goblin on screen at once? The flipside to this though is that with this kind of quality model, you could use it in cut-scenes, no need for FMV.

"problem is what people don't see is that the doom3 models are almost all under 4,000 polygons"

... but Doom 3's models aren't as fantastic as people make out, some of them have horribly jagged areas, for example, loads of polys put into making a curved chest, then you get a chin consisting of about 20 polys! The texture work is substandard in some areas as well. To be honest, Half-Life 2 / Halo / DeusEx models look much better. As you said though, shaders can be used to cover quite a bit of this up, but for us DBP users, I think it would be unwise to rely on them.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_101.zip
Cras
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Posted: 14th May 2003 14:47
well im sure itll work out in the end... but still a long way before we see some sort of outcome. thats the annoying thing about thiese forums... people announce games... they sound really good, and then you have to wait a year.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th May 2003 16:53
Aye Rob, sometimes there will be two Goblins onscreen, the idea of this game is to tell a story in a manner akin to a saga - the sort with orchestral music and highly dramatic voice overs and not with Diablo like constant action and overwhelming numbers.

The main character is playing a Fairy, not a fantasy race particularly associated with their ability to fight, so a single Goblin will prove a tough adversary requiring much tactics to defeat - and defeating a monster such as a Troll will require the use of the lay of the land and out-witting him, such a battle may take 20 minutes to defeat the monster.

It needs only two big battle scenes and the main character will not be involved in those - therefor I shall do them with a cinematic.

I have considered a few encounters where the player has to face off two monsters at once, maybe three. In these instances I may produce a few monsters with a lower polygon count, but in the interests of bad game design - i'm waiting until I get some of the gameplay in before I make the decision.

Sadly though Maniac does have a point - this is not the typical Banshee two-week wonder as it has already taken several months of development and i'm still not ready to release a playable demo.

Pneumatic Dryll

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