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3 Dimensional Chat / Blitz3d vs Darkbasic

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equalizer
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Posted: 10th May 2003 19:22
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Hi i am a blitz3d user and I wonder which is best, Darkbasic or blitz3d? Which is easyest and which is powerfulest?
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Ian T
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Posted: 10th May 2003 19:45
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Ummm...

I'm a fanboy(tm) so of course I'll say DBP. In my opinion, even if I wasn't a fanboy(tm) I would say DBP anyways. Blitz3d is about one quarter as fast and it's outdated.

However, I don't think posts like this are allowed...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Arrow
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Posted: 10th May 2003 20:10
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Nope, prepair for deleation, plus it's in the wrong topic.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th May 2003 00:26 Edited at: 11th May 2003 00:26
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DBS arn't keen on comparison threads, the official view is to download the respective demo's and see for yourself - which is a bit self defeating as the DBPro demo is so out-of-date and not a good example of what the language is capable of.

My recommendation is to peruse some software written in DBPro and compare that to Blitz software, check out http://www.darkbasicpro.com/retro_results.php for some examples of DarkBASIC programmed games.

Pneumatic Dryll
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TigerZ
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Posted: 11th May 2003 02:21 Edited at: 11th May 2003 02:23
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Hopefully this thread wont go into the twilight of fire zone.

Ive been looking on BlitzBasic.com and BlitzCoder.com and DarkBasicpro.com ever since i got introduced into the 3d game programming world, and i always try to keep an opened mind, altough im more pro Blitz3d then DarkBasicPro, i wouldnt say whichever is best, instead i would say 'try and judge yourself'. If your more comfortable to one language then the other, its better to go with your instinct. And I resent comments like: 'Blitz3d is about one quarter as fast and it's outdated' as i dont want to go in a (sorry for the expression) 'pissing contest' again.

But basically, go with the language that suits you the best.

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Siege Delux
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:25
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I have tryed Blitz3d and have Blitz2d, but i like DBPro. I must say that bb3d is more easy that db - dbpro but neverthetless i like dbpro.
dbpro has a better graphic system that bb3d, and suports more extensions like b3d and so on.

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Eric T
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:35
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blitz basic its good for a very beginner caus eit is easy, but it lacks the commands that DB and DBPRO have. Thats why i say go with the pro.


-Eric

I always win don't you know that?
Programming RPG games in Dark Basic
Since 1999.
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Siege Delux
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:43
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yes i am with you, that caus i bougt dbpro was that bb3d had a lack of internett codes.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:48
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Oh God!!, here we go again....

<Seen this conversation before LOL>

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 13th May 2003 16:56
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LOL! How did the Mods lost sight of this!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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actarus
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Posted: 13th May 2003 17:02
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Why not trying actually the software Demo and then make your own idea...

Do you really think that you'll make your choice based upon other people's preferences/experience???Let me tell you you won't,in fact,most of the time I hear bad things about a software,it turns out to be one of my favorite,go figure.

Anyways,this is the DB forum(really!I tell you!!) so only a few will be using BB3D.

Caught by the Fuzz,well I was,still on my buzz
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th May 2003 18:06
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"How did the Mods lost sight of this"

We didn't. I'm letting it live to see what happens.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Yavin
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Posted: 13th May 2003 19:23
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Em.. Time for the other side.

I have used both DB DBPRO B2D and BB3D ... and In my honset opinion B3D kicks strips out of DBPro and thats with only DX7 support .. how much better do you think its going to be when the DX9 update comes out ???

I think the only way to put a stop to all of this crap is a DEMO. a simple demo. loads of pollygons loads of nice effects .. and see which language does it best.. real simple.

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Yavin
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Posted: 13th May 2003 19:27
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Better yet why not have a fair and honest competition <yav stirs it up> Show your BEST and I mean your BEST games.

We will show ours.. and then let the public decide.

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TigerZ
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Posted: 13th May 2003 19:37 Edited at: 13th May 2003 19:38
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well it had to come to this so..

Agreed!

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IonStorm
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Posted: 13th May 2003 19:48
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A CHALLENGE

Why not have a Coding Language shoot out on neutral ground, and let the people judge who has the BEST System?
Im an ardent Blitz3d supporter, BUT i have BOUGHT Dark Basic. I would love to see what Dark Basic Pro can do compared to Blitz Basic 3d.
Rik you shall see what happens...

Ion-Storm
arxspace@ntlworld.com
irc.blitznet
#blitzbasic
#blitzcoder
#blitzradio

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 13th May 2003 20:32
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I coded in DB for nearly a year before 'converting' to the other-side. And I have used DBpro more than once(Morbid facsination? Like watching a train-wreak.)

A few myths DB`ers seem keen to spread, yet never actually back up with facts.

1. DBpro has more features,

Blitz3D and Blitz+ have userlibs. The language is now entirely in the hands of the coder. Blitz+(The 2d only, windows varient of blitz(Full winAPI access) has already had an openGL extension giving full access to the OpenGL api(Native calls. glEnable() etc)
User Libs can be wrote in any .DLL capable language. And are used in the same exact same manner as 'built-in' functions.(I.e no loading of dlls is needed, although Blitz can make DLL calls)

2.Ease of use

Blitz(All versions) has an extremely well thought out command Syntax.

For instance, All 3d objects are 'entities'

PositionEntity Entity,x,y,z

Can move/position 3d objects, cameras, lights...

Compare that to

SET CAMERA POSITION

And of course this extends through the entire language.

Handles... All object based functions return handles, rather than you explictly setting one.

Polymorphic objects. (Object. and Handle functions allow you to pass any type of object through a single 'pararemeter' window.)

Speed... Blitz mathces C++ for it's execution speed.

2D performance. Blitz has lightning fast 2d(Per-pixel) and now, in Blitz+ even greater control..

Basically, apart from a few flash 3d features that boil to nothing(Vertex/pixel shaders support is non-existent in DbPro. It's a case of getting the blurb on the box first, developing it to a usable/stable point later. As with most DBpro 'features'. See Cgg for how a Vertex/pixel implentation should be implented in a language(How or low-level, it matters not.) anything that DarkbasicPro does, Blitz does it faster. Blitz makes it easier. Blitz offers more control.
And more importantly, Blitz gives you the total freedom needed to create whatever type of App you see fit. (WindowsAPI with Canvas'.. Canvases are 'gfx' surfaces(DirectX/Native/OpenGl at present) that allow you to perform all of Blitz's lightning fast 2d operations on them. And thanks to OpenGL Direct 0.5(A free userLib) openGL 3D. And since it is DIRECT acess to the API, there is really nothing that opengl can do that Blitz+ can't do.

Can you say the same with DB?

People really should sum up all the 'FACTS' before they claim DBpro to be better/more advanced than Blitz.
(Not personal beliefs, or loyalty..which ISN'T a bad thing, just makes the arguement kind of pointless and reduces it to petty name-calling in the end. (We all know where this will end up... Deleted thread, few people banned. )

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 20:37
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Such a contest will only demonstrate the preffered platform of the best coder and not the platform itself.

Let me elaborate please. The year is 1999, when I last raced seriously:

I used to race Go-Karts and I raced in the nationals. There would be a few works teams with their own chassis and then all the privateers clamboring to get the chassis of who-ever was winning this season.

It wasn't a matter of which chassis was best, I can tell you which is best:

If you are racing at Rye House, use Deavisons or Swift - it's Deavisons own test track and therefor that chassis is extremely quick around it. The Swift's unique front torsion system handles the dogleg much better than most karts so in the hands of a good racer can get the drop all the way down the main strait.

If you race at Buckmore Park, use a Swift or a Project One. Project One test their and their kart is particularly good at that track because it's the circuit the kart was developed on, Swift again performs admirrably because of the lower end of the circuit and that torsion system. If you are in a Swift at the top end of the track you need to be defensive, therefor if you are in the midfield you are not going to be on the attack and may have difficulty overtaking.

If you race at Le Mans, use a Biz Kart and you are adept at setting up a Go-Kart, use a Bizz kart - it's advanced chassis setup tools will enable you to get the most out of this long circuit where-as other karts will always have a compromised setup, if you arn't very good at mommentum physics, take a simple kart such as a Deavisons - if nothing else it will last the race.



Now there's another factor that determines who wins at a Go Kart race.

Bizz kart spend around £80,000 a year on their works team development with an extensive testing program and unlimited resources.

Now look at the works 'supported' Muskateers team. Sponsored by a BUPA hospital and running the Swift chassis with a 'return if unnused' option on their spare parts. Their budget for the year is nearer £5,000 and £3,000 of that is spent in collobartion with Swift developing the kart.



Finally there is a third factor - and this is the important one. With their unlimited financial package you have Bizz kart and they of course have the best drivers around with an extensive test program to keep their skills honed.

In the middle of the pack you have The Brazilian National Racing Team who spend most of their grant just travelling to the race track.

At the lower end you have teams such as Dead Game, a group of Jamaican ex-pats who spend most of their budget on that well known Carribean past-time involving Rizla and you've teams such as Autosport, a collection of journalists who should stick to writting about motorsport instead of taking part.



The platform comparison

If you give a Bizz Kart to Dead Game are they suddenly going to lead the race?

If you take away Bizz teams own kart and give them the Swift, will they suddenly start loosing?



DBPro v's Blitz

Each language has it's own strengths at different tasks.

Each company producing the language gives a different level of support and updates at a different rate.

At the end of the day the quality of your final result is down to how good YOU are, not the language. If that wasn't the case then we'd all be using C++ and writting the most amazing games at a rate of 3 a week.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Yavin
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Posted: 13th May 2003 20:49
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Quote: "DBPro v's Blitz

Each language has it's own strengths at different tasks.

Each company producing the language gives a different level of support and updates at a different rate.

At the end of the day the quality of your final result is down to how good YOU are, not the language. If that wasn't the case then we'd all be using C++ and writting the most amazing games at a rate of 3 a week."


Bull. Soz bit thats just Bull. The langugae does matter, if its easier to use and runs at a faster rate then no matter how good you are on a slower harder to use language your gona produce products that are not as good. and you know it.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th May 2003 20:54
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"Blitz3D and Blitz+ have userlibs. The language is now entirely in the hands of the coder."

As with DBPros DLL support. Userlibs are no different. Perhaps it would be correct to say DBPro has move NATIVE features. I.e. ones you don't have to rely on a third party for.

"Compare that to SET CAMERA POSITION"

.. and you get the exact same end result. This is a matter of personal coding taste, not functionality.

"Polymorphic objects" - to a certain degree. But far from the true levels of polymorphism available in a real OO language (DBPro equally as guilty I admit).

"Blitz mathces C++ for it's execution speed."

A slightly generic comment. I'm sure it does match it in SOME cases, but far from all. At the end of the day there is always overhead going on in a Blitz/DB/DBPro program that doesn't exist in a pure C++ one - this is unavoidable and no amount of grandiose claims about either package will alter the fact. But then that's the price you pay for having a language you can code in and get results quickly and easily.

Use whatever floats your boat.

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:03
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Yavin - "if its easier to use and runs at a faster rate then no matter how good you are on a slower harder to use language your gona produce products that are not as good. and you know it."

Rubbish - most the games out there are crap because the game itself is crap, not because it's "slower" than if it had been written in a different language. Just because you're using say pure ASM it doesn't mean your program is going to be gods-gift to the gaming world. Pneu is absolutely right when he says that at the end of the day it's the developer that makes or breaks the game. If it plays badly who cares if it moves at 250 fps or 50. Vice City on the PC will be much faster than on the PS2 - does it make the PS2 version the poorer game? Bollocks does it.

I don't believe there is ANYONE who has yet taken either Blitz or DBPro to their limits.

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:20
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>As with DBPros DLL support. Userlibs are no different. Perhaps it >would be correct to say DBPro has move NATIVE features. I.e. ones >you don't have to rely on a third party for.-

So within Darkbasic you can actually ADD to it's core-functionality?

I.e, within my current blitz set up, I ran the IDEA, and enter,

glEnable() <- and Blitz highlights and offers syntax help(I.e it's just another function, no messy callDLL procedures involved)?
-


>and you get the exact same end result. This is a matter of personal >coding taste, not functionality.

I never claimed it to be. I clearly stated it as a comparasion of 'EASE OF USE'

>2.Ease of use

>Blitz(All versions) has an extremely well thought out command Syntax.

>For instance, All 3d objects are 'entities'

>PositionEntity Entity,x,y,z

>Can move/position 3d objects, cameras, lights...

>Compare that to

>SET CAMERA POSITION

>And of course this extends through the entire language.

See?


>A slightly generic comment. I'm sure it does match it in SOME cases, >but far from all. At the end of the day there is always overhead >going on in a Blitz/DB/DBPro program that doesn't exist in a pure >C++ one - this is unavoidable and no amount of grandiose claims >about either package will alter the fact. But then that's the price >you pay >for having a language you can code in and get results >quickly and >easily.

At the end of the day, C++ is a compiler. Blitz is a compiler. So,

for j=0 to 5
next (Blitz)

and

for(a=0;a<5;a++)
{
} (C++)

will most likely compile to a very similar looking piece of ASM/Machine code. I'd say the only real overhead concerns are Blitz's variable speed.(No direct memory acess, only banks) Of course you have to consider that Mark probably isn't in the same league as Microsoft's C++ guys, but from tests I've done, he's in their ballPark.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:31 Edited at: 13th May 2003 21:33
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"So within Darkbasic you can actually ADD to it's core-functionality?"

Yes of course. With DBPro you can write custom commands that are used natively from within the Editor - none of that "call dll" stuff. Add them to the Editors keywords list and it'll syntax highlight them and offer command-insight too. DBPro had this support before Blitz, thank you (unimportant I know)

"comparasion of 'EASE OF USE'"

This is entirely personal and subjective though - in your mind "PositionEntity" is "easy to use" - while in my mind "set camera position" is equally as easy (if not more so). Sure it's more typing, but that doesn't mean it's less easy to use.

"compile to a very similar looking piece of ASM/Machine code"

As it would in DBPro which is also a compiler and also compiles to Machine code, especially for functions such as for/next loops.

Can people see why I've locked threads like this so far? It's because no-one ever has all the facts from both sides! Assumptions are made everywhere and treated as gospel.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:43
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Quote: "Bull. Soz bit thats just Bull. The langugae does matter, if its easier to use and runs at a faster rate then no matter how good you are on a slower harder to use language your gona produce products that are not as good. and you know it."


Well Yavin, I think you need to wave bye bye to Yoda and come into reality for a moment

I am an intermediate skill programmer, are you telling me if I buy Blitz all of a sudden I will be a highly skilled advanced programmer? Reading that, yes you are!

OMG i'm going to buy Blitz strait away! That's just too good to be true...

Without wishing to bring this subject into a flame fest I shall refrain from comments about speaking out of your non-recreational orifice and instead focus on the issue, that being:

There is a wide range of skills of people using DarkBASIC as their choice of language. Some are very good such as Dimitiri, VanB etc. some are not so good, I shall refrain from names but instead say that few of us are at Dimitri's level.

There is a wide range of skills of people using Blitz as their choice of language. Some are capable of high quality games. Some arn't.

Are these two languages the same? No. They do have different strengths and weeknesses. So what are those strengths and weeknesses?

It's actually very hard to quantify, for instance I have a terrain demo that displays a large map with 500,000 objects on it and maintains an fps over 100. It is written in DBPro.

I have helped some people who have slowdown running a terrain engine with 300 objects on it. Written in DBPro.


Programming style and the way you use the resources made available to you will define what is the best language for YOU.

In short what I am saying is, try the demo out - then decide which is best. I've made my choice - i'm a DBPro man.

Pneumatic Dryll
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:45
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But if it were all based on fact, it wouldn't be no fun would it?

I would argue that Mark is a far more capable coder than Lee(Was coding in ASM when Lee was using Gamesfactory( no comment)) so even in circumstances where the compiled code SHOULD pretty much even up, chances are...well,again that's just speculation... sod it you know, use whatever makes you happy I say.. I just got pissed off at the comments up above claiming 'DB' to be better more advanced...

(Reckless comment) it isn't. (Now you try to ignore that. Now you know how why I couldn't ignore their comments...

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TigerZ
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:51 Edited at: 13th May 2003 21:51
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The only reason why we got on a defensive/agressive position is because some people *looking at the top of the thread* claimed that B3D is much slower then DBP without proof.

I have nooooooothing against DBP, but only the people who give out comments as i stated above.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:56
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"But if it were all based on fact, it wouldn't be no fun would it?"

Well true, but I do have better things to do than stop this thread descending into a flame war as a load of people jump on your back because you voiced an opinion

"I would argue that Mark is a far more capable coder than Lee"

I don't think anyone can say eitherway (and any anti-Lee/Mark threads that start appearing here will be erased instantly thank you). However there is more than just Lee working on DBPro. 2 full-time developers, 1 part-time IDE developer, then extra people working on docs and tutorials. This isn't a one-man band any more.

"compiled code SHOULD pretty much even" - there are only so many ways to convert a for/next loop to ASM but yeah I know what you mean. But it's still speculation - you have no way of knowing which code is better (and until Blitz and DBPro both go open-source, no-one ever will).

"I just got pissed off at the comments up above claiming 'DB' to be better"

Obviously - just as I had to correct you on a few assumptions too. This debate will never end and if you stop to think for a second about how many man hours of time must have been utterly wasted over the past few years in slagging each other off.. wow.. if we'd invested that into learning to code better maybe there would be less arguments

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 13th May 2003 22:04
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Well, Rich, At least this one ended peacefully. Must be a school-day tomorrow

(Cue to the on-slaught...)


Sorry for making an easy day at work a slightly harder one

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Cras
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Posted: 14th May 2003 00:53
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dbp and blitz, both amateur languages, never really going to make big bucks using them, dbp is cheaper. i rest my case.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th May 2003 02:18
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jimbo and petrat - both your messages deleted as totally irrelevant to this thread. Conduct personal business elsewhere.

Maniac - never really going to make "big bucks" outside of an International publisher either. I rest my case.

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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kfoong
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Posted: 14th May 2003 02:22
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lol another blitz3d vs darkbasic thread...

Quote from my brother:
Quote: " Patience is a virtue... I know that but how does that help me? "

http://www.stellarblue.vze.com/
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AntonyW3
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"dbp and blitz, both amateur languages, never really going to make big bucks using them, dbp is cheaper. i rest my case."

That has to be the most flawed reasoning I've ever heard/read/seen....

Do you go for the cheapest football just because you're not going to have an audience of millions down the local park? Do you get the cheapest guitar simply because your home-made songs..etc

Besides, all it takes is talent. You have the talent/time there is nothing you can't do with either language. (Doom was shareware once upon a time... Think about that. )

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:10
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i'm going to add something that might actually change each persons veiw on how you see each language...

in the past whenever arguments like this have arrisen i have likened Blitz3D to OpenGL and DarkBasic/DarkBasic Pro to DirectX

now the reason being is because whenever you start a 3D game within C/C++ you will be using one of these libraries because manufacturers of graphics cards make thier cards to specifically use them (and it would be a little daft to use anything else in a serious capacity).
So how many here have heard about the advantages and disadvantages of each of these libraries?

Well it is believed that OpenGL is far quicker than DirectX and is also far easier... and for the most part this is a correct statement. However when you get people who know howto use each of these libraries properly, it doesn't matter a flying fudge what a newbie can achieve with it - because they'll find a way to extend its abilities far far beyond what you'd deem possible.

now players from both sides will say "oh OpenGL can achieve this, because John Carmack made it in Doom3" or "DirectX can achieve this because Kevin Atamus made Halo2 do this!"
the fact of the matter the people who are spouting this off can't bloody achieve the same effects today, and all bets would be they would need to use the language for almost as long before they understood quite as deeply howto use it in the same fashion.

the point that the analogy of Blitz3D vs DarkBasic is identical to that of OpenGL vs DirectX ... although from the outside Blitz appears to be faster and simpler to use, when you get down the to nitty gritty unless you can stomach the language totally then you'll never achieve anything past its core coding which is significantly less than DarkBasic Pro.
That said DarkBasic Pro is only really capable of shineing in its abilities once you get to know the language and with its enlongated language, this tends to put off people.

if you want to talk about bugs of the languages they both are riddled with the bloody things - and i can guarentee you what you think is a perfectly stable DarkBasic Pro or Blitz3D i can do something within it in under 5minutes which shows a bug...

The fact that niether DarkBasic Pro nor Blitz3D are assembly based machine compiled languages actually means thier overheads will NEVER make them AS FAST as C++ (which in turn isn't as fast as C marginally for the exact same reasons)

The points about each language really is 100% neglable, because quite frankly anything myself or anyother hardened DBPRO developer can do i can promise you a Blitz3D developer could also do in Blitz.
This doesn't mean a newbie can type a single command and hey presto they can achieve this too ... the fact of the matter is WE know our own languages, and WE know howto achieve the best from them.

you go with the language you are capable of using the best...
the simple fact of the matter is,

Blitz3D is a very quick to learn language with instant results, and a very compact way of achieveing them
DarkBasic Professional is a more feature packed language which is a far more allround product rather than focus being primarily on speed and graphics.

that is what really is what i've always prefered about DarkBasic, because they try not to focus on just the Graphical aspect - but the actual overall usefulness and ease of the language.

yes it is a much longer language with more descriptive terms, this doesn't mean they're used any differently - it just means it takes longer to code things. It also doesn't mean it is slower either...
what the main thing you have to remember is that Blitz has had 3years to wean out all of the major bugs, DBPro is a matter of 7months old - only on p4.1, i would have hardly of called Blitz stable until p6.6 which was released only about a year ago.

the way i see it both language have merits and pitfalls, which won't matter a lick to a programmer because all they want is a tool which they're comfortable using. Because if you hate a language you cannot perform anywhere close to how you'd like to.

if you prefer Blitz then fine, if you Pro then fine ... personally i couldn't give a rats ass which anyone else prefers as at the end of the day i'm not any of you and i'm the one who is programming for me - as soon as one of you starts programming for me, then i'll give a rats ass what ya'll think is best

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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John H
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:11
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I don't believe there is ANYONE who has yet taken either Blitz or DBPro to their limits.

I agree. Eternal Destiny is looking to do just that.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:13 Edited at: 14th May 2003 04:15
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hey Rich, Pro was never a one man band to begin with... don't forget Malcom helped right from the start, so did Mike

[edit-] Hey RPG, i'll talk to you later on msn and show you some shots from my nVidia Demo - and i can tell you now, what ya'll see isn't Pro's limits by far ... might just put in to perspective what you think the limits are though

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:25
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I can't believe this thread is still ALIVE!

Frankly, it boils down to this.

1. I've downloaded the demo of both packages. I played with the demo samples for both packages. I liked both packages.

2. I found issues in both packages which I eventually weighed up and decided which package I wanted to use. Which one? Is obvious!

3. Why do people insist on debating the pro's and con's of each package if they can't even be bothered to download BOTH demos and decide if that system meets their needs, and honestly, an advanced programmer or beginner programmer will always go for the system they think they can use quickly and effectively. They might say to themselves. Ooo, yeah, this system has a single command for doing lens flares, where as the other package requires two commands. So what! You, me and everybody else chose the package they wanted to use because it suited your, my and everybody else's needs.

I'm done!

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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John H
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:32
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Ooo lense flares? Where where! Lol jk I like the package that has power and ease of use, but can also be user edited (like with plugins) to make it more powerful, like we are doing with ED.

Raven: Hey cool Ill talk to u

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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:35
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lol

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Yavin
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:45
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OMG I hate to say it, but both sides are actually starting to talk facts and not bull.

This I like. I never really wanted this thread to go downhill, even if some of my comments may have leaned in that direction. so Im glad the mods have had good heads on their sholders and let it run its course.

TBH. I prefer BB3D. I feel it offers more flexability than Pro. and yes I have used Pro. so Im talking about this after having experiance in both languages.

To hit on anohter point about them both being amature and never going to make any big money. ERM thats the most crap I have seen on this thread so far. because it doesent matter what language a game is written in, its what the end product turns out like.

I know that it only takes a few seconds to peek through the blitz showcase before you will come accross more than a few games that could and some do compete with main stream developers.

Although I still feel some sort of competition would be FUN.. and I mean FUN. I dont mean to continue with the Mine is better attitude its not going to work out like that.

So. What im suggesting is this. a joint competition run by both communitis. For example Im sure both sides have run retro comps in the past I know blitz has and im sure I remember DB doing the same. So how about this. we setup a Retro Comp. but for entry by blitz and DB users. we each follow the setout rules of the competition, and at the end we have a fair pannel of peeps to judge it. would be huge kudos to the side whos code wins, We could also make it a regular event.

With the final intent to stop driving both communities appart and to try and build some links here. you know what the say about a little competition.

So what do you guys say about that ? would you be willing to take part ?

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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2003 04:51
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Yavin, Dark Basic Software did a compo, find it at http://www.darkbasicpro.com/retro_entries.php

In either case, they both bost excellent results from dedicated members. Don't you agree?

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 14th May 2003 05:21
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'Both are riddled with bugs'

Blitz3D has bugs? That's news to me. Do you have the demo? The lastest version(1.83) is bug-free AFAIk.(And yes I do have it.)

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DMXtra
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First of all, I think people should check out both languages.

I have Blitz 3D and I also have DBPro. I am a member of DBDN and I am over on the Blitz basic boards every day. I am also reading on Blitz coder everyday.

I see a lot of the issues and here is my thing about the two communities.

Blitz users are really not knowledgable about DBPro at all, they are very misinformed about whats really going on. DBPro users know whats going on with Blitz and some are trying it out.

I see Blitz as a language that had great potential but has lost a lot of momentum and a lot of potential. I hear all this Direct X 9 stuff coming from the Blitz community, but most of those people have no clue about how Mark Sibly's mind works and most are newbies.

Blitz 3D has some features that DBPro does not have including a lot of low level stuff, however, this is changing with DBPro and these features are starting to be worked on. I can't say what they are but I am in a conversation with Mike almost weekly. ;p

DBPro has a lot of features in the pipeline and is a work in progress. Blitz is in need of a huge update as it doesn't even use many advanced features beyond static T&L. Its not going to get this for a long time and your kidding yourself if you think it will.

I have had Blitz 3D for almost two years and not a lot has changed. Sure bug updates and little small updates and updates like B3D which is a hack because Blitz couldn't supported the more popular boned X format.

Because mark doesn't change much and because he releases small updates he can keep things more stable, but that sure didn't help when he came out with Blitz Plus.

Everyone in the Blitz community is waiting for BlitzMax to save them and to be a big step forward, but thats not nearly going to be here for a long time.

Blitz is a good product and so is DBPro, but after two years of disapointments with Blitz and how it rarely takes a step forward and with seeing all the stuff that DBPro is heading into it looks like DBPro in the longterm is the better of the two.

Blitz is better organized of the two, but DBPro has the strait forward syntax and easier to understand. Blitz as I said is also more forward for lower level functions currently, but this is changing in DBPro and DBPro is becoming a lot more low level and more flexible. Of course I can't say whats coming, but its all good in the hood.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 14th May 2003 06:46
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-I see Blitz as a language that had great potential but has lost a lot of momentum and a lot of potential. I hear all this Direct X 9 stuff coming from the Blitz community, but most of those people have no clue about how Mark Sibly's mind works and most are newbies.-

Rubbish. Blitz+ has just been released(Adding near complete WinAPI access, geared towards anything. Apps/Games. (It is the groundWork for BlitzMax).. The lastest version(Released DAYS ago) includes new OpenGL drivers.(So Blitz+ is now officially Dx/OpenGL.) and quite a few new features. The update before that added UserLibs.
So it has not lost any momentum. (I've been using Blitz since the first betas.. So trust me when I say it is going according to plan as far as it ever went to plan..)

>DBPro has a lot of features in the pipeline and is a work in >progress. Blitz is in need of a huge update as it doesn't even use >many advanced features beyond static T&L. Its not going to get this >for a long time and your kidding yourself if you think it will.

Because(And quite rightly so.) BlitzMax will not use DX at all. It will use OpenGL. And Blitz+ already has full access to the OpenGL API(Directly, not some third-party engine) thanks to amazing yet FREE directGL userLib.
What you have to understand about Mark is that he NEVER rushes to please the audience. So when Blitz does get a cool much wanted feature(Userlibs for example) it is always fully-developed and bug-free. Which is how it SHOULD be done.


>I have had Blitz 3D for almost two years and not a lot has changed. >Sure bug updates and little small updates and updates like B3D which >is a hack because Blitz couldn't supported the more popular boned X >format.

Well, Mark has been working hard on BlitzMax and of course the recent Blitz+.(Which was a massive overhaul under the bonnet. It no longer uses DirectX7.0)



>Blitz is a good product and so is DBPro, but after two years of >disapointments with Blitz and how it rarely takes a step forward and >with seeing all the stuff that DBPro is heading into it looks like >DBPro in the longterm is the better of the two.

No step forwards? Darkbasic3D had been out for over a year when initia Blitz2D developement started. Since then Blitz3D has been released, (Several huge updates..userLibs, bsp, 3ds..etc etc) Blitz+ has been released(And already updated), Maplet has been released(Coded by mark, world editor in case anyone is wondering) and work is well underway on blitzMax... How can you justify saying that? Perhaps to you maybe, your specific needs havn't been might. Which is fair-enough.


-Blitz is better organized of the two, but DBPro has the strait -------forward syntax and easier to understand. Blitz as I said is also -----more forward for lower level functions currently, but this is --------changing in --DBPro and DBPro is becoming a lot more low level and more flexible.
-Of course I can't say whats coming, but its all good in the hood.

And you assume while DBpro advances Blitz will stand-still? BlitzMax(If Mark keeps his public promises, and I can't recall him ever not, aside from release dates) will make Blitz+/3D seem like childrens toys...

(Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.)

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Dave J
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Posted: 14th May 2003 11:20
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OpenGL in Blitz would have to be one of their main advantages, I've never liked how DB is solely DirectX.

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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2003 12:21
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Ohh god, I knew this would happen.

It's just BB3D users bored because their free forum 'Blitzcoder' is down. It's funny how they all come out of the woodwork. I can imagine them, like little boyscouts, 'Yez captain, we strike Apollo at dawn, stay frosty!.

I'm biting my tongue - but keep it friendly please blitzers, otherwise we might be tempted to visit BC when it's back, and leave a giant turd like you have.


Van-B

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Siege Delux
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Posted: 14th May 2003 12:46
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The Blitzers server is damn slow, and is always down. LOL

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APEXnow
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<----<Ignites ciggy on the masses of flames eminating from the thread>

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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2003 13:26
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Actually, BC is back now - so this thread will most likely just be us mumbling amongst ourselves .


Van-B

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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th May 2003 13:46 Edited at: 14th May 2003 13:50
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Quote: "
Rubbish. Blitz+ has just been released(Adding near complete WinAPI access, geared towards anything. Apps/Games. (It is the groundWork for BlitzMax).. The lastest version(Released DAYS ago) includes new OpenGL drivers.(So Blitz+ is now officially Dx/OpenGL.) and quite a few new features. The update before that added UserLibs.
So it has not lost any momentum. (I've been using Blitz since the first betas.. So trust me when I say it is going according to plan as far as it ever went to plan..)
"


You mean all the WINAPI stuff that should have been a free add on for Blitz 2D? Mark even said himself that he wasn't making any more money on Blitz 2D, so he invented Blitz Plus to generate more funds. You mean the WINAPI attempt that tries to compete with PureBasic and Visual Basic?

The OpenGL support in Blitz plus is far from complete, even mark says that in his changelog. He still suggests using Direct X for stability sake. You are better off using a userlib for OpenGL support, but whoops, your app still requires you to have Direct X installed. doh!

I also was never talking about Blitz Plus, I was talking about Blitz 3D and DBPro. Try to stay on topic please oh and that goes for me too. ;p

Trust you? You don't even have a valid BUID, you hardly know whats going on, you have been gone for months. Maybe 4 months at least. I read on both boards daily.

Quote: "
Because(And quite rightly so.) BlitzMax will not use DX at all. It will use OpenGL. And Blitz+ already has full access to the OpenGL API(Directly, not some third-party engine) thanks to amazing yet FREE directGL userLib.
What you have to understand about Mark is that he NEVER rushes to please the audience. So when Blitz does get a cool much wanted feature(Userlibs for example) it is always fully-developed and bug-free. Which is how it SHOULD be done.
"


BlitzMax will have to use OpenGL because its multiplatform, thats kind of common knowledge there.

However, with Mark being so conservative, he isn't going to use OpenGL 2.0 and probably stick to 1.1 or 1.2 of OpenGL and without video card extentions that can be pretty basic. With every video card, there are tons of extensions for every make and model of video cards by all different manufactures,this alone makes support a nightmare, thats why John Carmack has such a hard time coding for each card. So I doubt Mark will go this route.

OpenGL has two advantages over Direct X, one is multiplatform and the other is that its simpler to program the API to get it to do what you want to do,the negatives is that it can't stack up to Direct X 9 or 10 and its hell to try to program for all the extensions.

userlibs don't have DLL callbacks and you have to create some cheesy external file to use them. Better than the DLL hack he had, but it still sucks.

Quote: "
Well, Mark has been working hard on BlitzMax and of course the recent Blitz+.(Which was a massive overhaul under the bonnet. It no longer uses DirectX7.0)
"


It uses DirectX right? So whats the big deal? Direct X did not even come with the first version of Win95 anyway and NT 4.x is used in old archaic server environments and nobody would dare use blitz plus on that when they could use visual basic or visual c++.

Quote: "
No step forwards? Darkbasic3D had been out for over a year when initia Blitz2D developement started. Since then Blitz3D has been released, (Several huge updates..userLibs, bsp, 3ds..etc etc) Blitz+ has been released(And already updated), Maplet has been released(Coded by mark, world editor in case anyone is wondering) and work is well underway on blitzMax... How can you justify saying that? Perhaps to you maybe, your specific needs havn't been might. Which is fair-enough.
"


Dark basic Pro will be out in a year when September 2003 hits at that point Blitz 3D will be two years old and not much has been added to it that I would consider major features other than mainly a few hacks here and there and its being updated less now...

userlibs is a step forward, I only asked for them about 12 months ago and begging and pleading for a better way to use DLL's and it still sucks as I stated above.

bsps work, but are not really supported anymore, kind of like an afterthought now. Not many people use them and they have trouble loading some maps which Mark isn't really interested in fixing because he changed his mind about this feature.

3ds? You mean b3d,the model format that is only used with Blitz because they don't support boned model formats that the entire world supports and thus people are pleading all the time asking for someone to make 3Dmax converters to B3D converters?

mod support. Nice, not programmed by mark but thrown in the language anyway.

Movie commands - Finally something cool and much needed.

Vertex Alpha - Should have had this from the begining, but took 14 months just to get this feature.

External IDE support - Well after Darkbasic Classic having to have a crap IDE and not supporting external IDE's,you would of thought mark would have got this along time ago, but nope, took a long time to get this and its finally here.

Quote: "
And you assume while DBpro advances Blitz will stand-still? BlitzMax
(If Mark keeps his public promises, and I can't recall him ever
not, aside from release dates) will make Blitz+/3D seem like
childrens toys...
"


BlitzMax is a huge undertaking and people are expecting quite a bit, which usually means people will disapointed, this happened with DBPro and I am sure it will happen with BlitzMax as well.

Mark is one programmer, verses at least two main ones for DBPro and another person doing the IDE and other stuff.

BlitzMax is huge project and Mark does not want to rush it and he isn't progressing with Blitz 3D at the moment, mainly just Maplet 2.0 (which has already fallen behind of David Birds program) and Blitz Plus which is forming the foundation of the GUI code for BlitzMax. Even people in Mark's inner circle such as Rob cummings is saying its going to be a long time. I would be shocked if it came out this year and if it did, it probably would be rushed and disapoint like Blitz Plus did.

Dark Basic Pro -- The luxury for game programmers everywhere
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Cras
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Posted: 14th May 2003 14:40
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Quote: "Do you go for the cheapest football just because you're not going to have an audience of millions down the local park? Do you get the cheapest guitar simply because your home-made songs..etc"


umm yes... actually... thats just the way i am. and i think thats what this whole thread comes down to. most people like the software they have bought. what makes them buy it could be what they have seen made, the fact that they never knew the other one existed, that they were hanging around the forums and made a few friends. The odd person could have downloaded the demo beforehand and actually made judgement, but its hard to make a proper assessment within 30 days of using a language. Notice how most blitz users will argue for blitz and most dbp people will go for dbp, then u'll get the odd person now and again making out he/she is all mature by arguing both and making out they dont have an overall oppinion. If you have invested money and time into software, its human nature to find it hard to allow that software to be put down. I think thats what this arguement boils down to. There are people who bought one, and people who bought the other, and all want to justify their decision. If you look at the sites for both, you'll notice that alot of the results for using each are similar to one and other... funny that.
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