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3 Dimensional Chat / Blitz3d vs Darkbasic

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Van B
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:42
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Raven,

SET OBJECT TEXTURE......

Look it up - dunno if it works, but according to the help files, it changes the texturing mode, and mipmap mode. You could try using single layer .dds textures too - force it into a set mipmap texture so it can't use any lower res ones.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:57
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but doesn't turn mipmapping off ... just allows you to change its properties

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 18:00
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That reminds me of the one thing which pisses me off about DBP, there are no instructions saying what the possible values of the mimap generation flag mean. Just like blend mapping or Statistic (apart from Statistic(1) )

I recently discovered several hidden features in DBP, I just wish that Lee would occassionally give some help to people you do not want to use the language like:

do
MAKE FPS CHARACTERS 1,5
APPLY AUTOMATIC RAGDOLL PHYSICS 1
MAKE CORNY JOKES 1,1
HANDLE FPS CONTROLS 1,1
DO EVERYTHING ELSE TO MAKE THE GAME LOOK GOOD 1,1,23,52,55,5
sync
loop

Nice as that would be, it ain't very flexible.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Van B
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Posted: 26th May 2003 21:36
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Raven,

SET OBJECT TEXTURE 1,1,0 - Disables Mipmapping
SET OBJECT TEXTURE 1,1,1 - Enables Mipmapping

Trust me dude, I just checked - I would post screenies if I could.

The exception is when using .DDS images, you can't seem to disable it then.

Ohh, Franis Lionet was his name I think, STOS was a terrible language - I still shudder when I think about numbered lines a horrible IDE's. GFA Basic was the real bedroom language on the ST.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 04:15
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are you sure it isn't just changing the lookup value?
that aside someone would have to still physically change it because mipmap linear is on as standard, so for it not to be on within a dbpro game seems baffling to me.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Van B
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Posted: 27th May 2003 10:48
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Lookup value for what?

It's easy, set the mipmap flag to 0, textures are sharp - set it to 1, textures are mipmap soft. How complicated do you want it! .


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 15:52
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in DB you could change the lookup value

set mipmap mode 0 = off (sharp)
set mipmap mode 1 = nearest (half-life)
set mipmap mode 2 = linear (smooth)
set mipmap mode 3 = anistrophic (perspectively smooth<->sharp)

default in DB was off, but in Pro seems to be On and Linear.

but Nearest - Linear - Anistrophic are the lookup modes, Nearest is probably one of the quickest but worst looking of the bunch because rather than making a perspective blur it just assigns the right texture per block.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Van B
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Posted: 27th May 2003 17:46
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Pretty sure that's not the case - I think it just switches it off or on. I think that the SET OBJECT TEXTURE command is used to setup the object for mipmapping, like create the mipmap image if it has to - it's maybe just a coincidence that it can turn it off too, pretty sure 0 and 1 are the only options.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 18:38
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well perhaps in dbp i've not seen the refference to it in the manual, but then i've not really looked and it could just be one of those "no longer used" functions.

but thats how it worked in DB, i used it also and you could really tell the difference and its on as defualt in dbp - if you wanna see what i mean just make a cube on a plain and texture them both then zoom in/out

so to turn it off in pro you'd have to set each textured object you make to off - with 200 sprites that really be a big waste of time, that would be if it was even possible to turn it off for them as well ... or BSP worlds... or Matricies you'd need a global mipmap function, which as i've said i think they've actually taken out.

they have 9 Levels of mipmap now though, makes it very very very smooth and the speed difference is minimal on newer cards
but i think what i said still really stands (^_^)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Van B
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Posted: 28th May 2003 04:47
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Yeah, I agree that there's not as much/enough control over mipmapping, we probably don't notice as much with pro's smoothing.



Van-B

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Eric T
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Posted: 31st May 2003 10:17
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I'm going to say now, all are very basic languages based on the original basic(but of course). But from what i have seen BB is a very very simple language, only on DX 7 which really brings down the cabability. DBP has multiplayer code a very good thing (GL makin a mmorpg in BB). When i have used BB i have run into many a trouble with movement coding, it's a pain in my balls. I have found DB a lot more eficient. Also with the compile in DB it actually catches some errors. so as you can see i'm DB all the way.

--Eric

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st May 2003 21:50
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Blitz being DirectX 7 based actually brings up its compatibility
more machines can run DirectX7 and more cards can run it as well.

when it all strips down to it though, DBP has far more power and flexibility as well as ease... the power and flexibility used to be what Blitz had over DB Standard. But now thats gone, where really is there left?

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Eric T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 04:50
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i wasn't saying anything about compatibiltity, cause if you wanna get into compatibility then QBasic is best lmao.

--Eric

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 08:09
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Quote: "BB is a very very simple language, only on DX 7 which really brings down the cabability"


you said it and nope i'd say purebasic is the most compatible, covers 3 of the main platforms around + Macintosh is on the way.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 13:09
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I got DBP back in October and, from what I've read, I think I've backed the right pony. This is because I'm still low down on the learning curve and by time I reach the top of the learning curve DBP will have all it's bells & whistles working properly.
And I agree that most people are held back by there own ability way before they are held back by the ability of either language.
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Ravey
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 12:45
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Can I offer a non-biased opinion (well initially).

PC Format (UK Magazine) reviewed Both DBPro and Blitz3D head to head a few months back and concluded the following:

Blitz3D was the overall winner due to being faster and more stable than DPRO, they stated it was more for the "advanced" coder than DBPro (which scored against Blitz3D).

DBPRO scored over Bitz3D due to being easier to use (which is a common misconception here - DBPRO has so many commands to do almost everything for you - Blitz3D you have to work a bit harder at).

Overall Score was Blitz3D 9, DBPRO 8.

I do own both but personally much prefer Blitz3D due to the fact you have far more control over what you are doing, it is far more stable and in all my tests Blitz3D has been WAY faster.

Anyways, looking at it objectively myself, if you prefer to write a game in DBPro then good for you. Not everyone drives the same car - doesnt mean people who don't drive the same car as me are wrong.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 13:20
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Hi Dave,

DBPro is getting better daily. I see Mike and Lee posting daily on what they are doing in their development diaries. I get to test the stuff that they are working on.

DBPro is becoming more flexible and having more low-level control. Its getting more and more away from the old DB Classic model into a more low-level way of working. You can do things in Patch 5 that you can't do in blitz and you have control over it.

I have Blitz 3D right here and Mark isn't doing anything to go forward with Blitz 3D, sure he will throw a few bones your way, but the real thing he wants you to do is buy BlitzMax which is has all the promises that everyone in the Blitz Community is drooling for.

Mark is focusing on Blitz Plus and Maplet 2.0 and some of that architecture will be used for BlitzMax, but its a long, long, long way off and I am not holding my breath. By the time that comes out, DBPro will be at 2.0.

Mark will still update Blitz 3D with two new commands or bug fixes here and there, but I bought it and I was disapointed that it wasn't ever properly updated. Sure he added in a hack to do DLL support and then to hack in a bones format since Blitz doesn't support DX 8.0+, but he lost my money a long time ago. I don't mean to sound offensive, but Mark is stringing a lot of you guys along and you guys just seem to follow him wherever he goes. I hope for your sake that the price is going to be decent for BlitzMax.

Speed is also just relative thing. Blitz is faster than DBPro at some things and DBPro is faster than Blitz at others.

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Redflame
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 15:09
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A few misconceptions to clear up:

BlitzPlus:
Allows you to switch between opengl rendering and directx rendering. The version of directx required is 1. This makes GDI useless since DX1 is available on NT,95,98,ME,2000 and XP. It can also do proper OpenGL in 3D via a small decls file (no dll's needed). The NeHe tuts have all been ported without difficulty.

Blitz3D:
Quote: ""I have Blitz 3D right here and Mark isn't doing anything to go forward with Blitz 3D, sure he will throw a few bones your way, but the real thing he wants you to do is buy BlitzMax which is has all the promises that everyone in the Blitz Community is drooling for.""

Rubbish. I am better informed than you because I am long-term user and tester. I can confirm it is actively being developed. You are merely opinionated without the facts.

Blitzbasic (original):
No longer developed. Replaced by BlitzPlus.


Now for my own opinion on Darkbasic. I did the terrain, particle party, reflection and draco examples for original darkbasic. How I did these still confounds some people. I was proud at the time and still own the original box that Rich sent. It is unopened and looked after.

No matter what language you use, I would like to see some honesty. Currently I see lots of bitching and very little to show for it. Where are your DBPRO examples that even come close to my original DB examples? Imagine what I could do nowadays? it doesn't matter what language you use.

I cannot respect hot air unless some decent work has been done. You don't need to be good at graphics to make an excellent attempt. No excuses.

Enjoy DBPRO, STFU and make something you can be proud of. Then talk. I know I have.

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Van B
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 15:41
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I believe the gauntlet was laid by us, so why haven't we seen any good Blitz examples?, why haven't we seen an example of OpenGL with Blitz?, why don't you look around the forums to find examples of DBPro at work?. I know I check out the Blitzcoder showcase, but only when I can't sleep .

There's almost 100 DB and DBPro games on this website, check out the retro competition, hell, check out Jetpac2003 if you like, although I hate showing work to people who have a negative attitude already.

What Blitzers in particular seem to forget, is that DBPro is very young, and is being updated all the time. You seem to put on your rose coloured specs everytime Marks name crops up - yet there is no solid proof of what is happening with Blitz. I mean, when is Blitzmax due out? - what kind of features does it have?, not that I care, but you seem to think we owe you some kind of proof, maybe it's the other way round.

I think, and I know other DB'ers think the same - that the biggest drawback with Blitz is the community surrounding it. It's a real shame, and I'm not pointing fingers, but a lot of Blitzers are complete twats.


Van-B

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actarus
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 15:55 Edited at: 4th Jun 2003 15:56
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@equalizer

Next time you pop in this place to post a 'controversial' subject,why not at least giving one reply to show you weren't just looking for a fight no?

My 2 cents...

Running away You're lost for words again Now you`ve got all what you wanted Are you really satisfied?
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Andy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 16:12
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>Bltz2dbpro<

You seem to have a problem with mark sibly, and instead of being man enough to tell us the real reason, you attack both him and B3D whereever you can... On Blitzbasic and Blitzcoder and here.

>I see Blitz in the same position Dark Basic was in a few years ago

Blitz3D is not comparable to DBC... We both know that!

>when Lee was by himself and over his head with 3D issues. I was very
>frustrated with Lee because he would say things and not do them
>because they were too complicated and there was tons to do and yes
>Lee's coding skills may have not been better than Mark's. This is
>true. This is pretty much true of Blitz today.

So you're saying that a guy who has programmed compilers and games for 10 years is on the same stage as Lee was when he made DBC?... I respect Lee for getting DBC to a ready state and selling it... Few bedroom coders actually do that, however Mark did that many years ago.

>I have Blitz 3D right here and Mark isn't doing anything to go
>forward with Blitz 3D, sure he will throw a few bones your way, but
>the real thing he wants you to do is buy BlitzMax which is has all
>the promises that everyone in the Blitz Community is drooling for.

Actually, Mark has already said that B3D updates will be less frequent as he is developing the tech that will drive Maplet and BPLus and eventually BMaX... At the same time he also noted that B3D would coexist alongside BMaX. BMax is still in early development, so I can't really see why he would want his users to wait for it.

>Mark is focusing on Blitz Plus and Maplet 2.0 and some of that
>architecture will be used for BlitzMax, but its a long, long, long
>way off and I am not holding my breath. By the time that comes out,
>DBPro will be at 2.0.

Well we don't really know much... For a language in early development, it sure seems very advanced, being able to compile on both Windows, MacOSX and Linux.

>Mark will still update Blitz 3D with two new commands or bug fixes
>here and there, but I bought it and I was disapointed that it wasn't
>ever properly updated. Sure he added in a hack to do DLL support and
>then to hack in a bones format since Blitz doesn't support DX 8.0+, >but he lost my money a long time ago.

Which is really the reason for your agenda... No matter if Mark released the updates according to his plan, you didn't feel that you had enough say.

>I don't mean to sound offensive, but Mark is stringing a lot of you
>guys along and you guys just seem to follow him wherever he goes. I
>hope for your sake that the price is going to be decent for BlitzMax.

And the same could be said for many DB users... The first 2 pages in this discussion must be hilarious for both sides... I particularly liked your own statement:

>Blitz users are really not knowledgable about DBPro at all, they are
>very misinformed about whats really going on. DBPro users know whats
>going on with Blitz and some are trying it out.

So Blitzers don't have a clue and DB'ers know it all?...

I think we're all ignorant to some degree about both products, and the differences are enhanced by many because we all see things differently and want to believ that we made a good investment by buying B3D/DBP/whatever...

I used to be like that, but I have realized that being a zealot just leaves me less time to code, makes me agitated about stupid comments by people who obviously have no idea what they're talking about(speaking as a zealot)...

Healthy rivalry is trying to compete in the arena, but often the B3D/DBP users turn into hooligans raising hell whenever they visit eachothers forum.

I just like to programme, and B3D serves my needs. I used to own DBC and I would ´never have known about Blitz, had I not been introduced through the official DB forum.

Andy

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Redflame
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 17:26
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Quote: "I think, and I know other DB'ers think the same - that the biggest drawback with Blitz is the community surrounding it. It's a real shame, and I'm not pointing fingers, but a lot of Blitzers are complete twats."

Really? I agree but I would say every community has twats. Perhaps you're the twat of the darkbasic community for example. Anyone who cannot string a valid argument together and speaks up on behalf of entire communities is surely lacking something.

Stand on your own two feet and show us what you have done personally Van B.

This isn't an attack on DBPRO and never has been. I fail to see how you'll learn unless you've been soundly put in your place which is what I'm doing right now. Have the grace to accept this.

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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 17:37
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I DO desire bump mapping and a move to DX9 from blitz personally. I think that all languages/dev kits will have their fair share of feature-request-freaks and people who just knuckle down and get on with it.

The good thing about DBPRO is that it DOES actually have bump mapping and similar such things. The good thing about Blitz is that it is better structured.

My ideal language would have the structures of blitz and the hardware features of darkbasic, yet not sacrifice stability or reliability. The thing with a mass of features is, you can quickly introduce instability on a wide range of hardware. That said I believe Lee and team have done really well so far. I hope that the patches continue and the language matures, after all DB classic still holds a warm place in my heart

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actarus
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 17:40
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-Stand on your own two feet and show us what you have done personally Van B

?!?

LMAO!

Running away You're lost for words again Now you`ve got all what you wanted Are you really satisfied?
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Van B
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 18:04
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I don't think my work is in question here Redflame, this isn't a 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours argument' - you asked for examples, we've told you where to get them - try some first, then come here with your opinions and make a sensible post - perhaps even showing us what's better in blitz like so many of us have asked before - without response. What was so invalid in me asking for proof about your claims? - or aren't you used to providing proof of anything at blitzcoder?. I wasn't asking for a personal example here, just a bloody screenshot.

As for me being the DB twat - great!, at least we got that sorted. Now we just gotta worry about all the BB twats over here.

Consider me firmly in my place :-s.


Van-B

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DMXtra
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 13:07
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Quote: "
A few misconceptions to clear up:

BlitzPlus:
Allows you to switch between opengl rendering and directx rendering. The version of directx required is 1. This makes GDI useless since DX1 is available on NT,95,98,ME,2000 and XP. It can also do proper OpenGL in 3D via a small decls file (no dll's needed). The NeHe tuts have all been ported without difficulty.
"


It also allows you to use software rendering as well. This was all added in the last updated released two weeks ago. The OpenGL hack does use .DLL's dude, I have seen the source. However, I really don't care for BlitzPlus, its a Purebasic wannabe. There is some big slow downs for people with the 1.34 version, but I honestly don't really care that much to tell you the truth. Blitz Plus was just a ploy from mark to get more money from Blitz 2D because it wasn't selling anymore, he said so himself so he made it more attractive, reworked the entire engine so it could work on useless winnt 4.x machines and windows 95 without Direct X 7, all which I could again care less about.


Quote: "
Blitz3D:

Quote:

"I have Blitz 3D right here and Mark isn't doing anything to go forward with Blitz 3D, sure he will throw a few bones your way, but the real thing he wants you to do is buy BlitzMax which is has all the promises that everyone in the Blitz Community is drooling for."

Rubbish. I am better informed than you because I am long-term user and tester. I can confirm it is actively being developed. You are merely opinionated without the facts.
"


I have also been a beta tester of the original Blitz 2D from back in August 2000. I bought Blitz 3D in Sep 2001. I switched over from Dark Basic to Blitz only to be disapointed later. I even remember you beta testing Blitz 2D and posting messages in the mailing list back then, remember the mailing list through email that was set up for Blitz testing back in the old days.

Look at Mark's own worklogs here and figure it out... He is mainly working on Blitz Plus and Maplet 2.0 and working on Blitz 3D a very little bit with no big improvements. It looks like the plan is to get you all to buy BlitzMax and spend yet again more money and they thought darkmatter was bad. Hear anymore about Blitz 3D going DirectX 9? yeah, I didn't think so...

"There has been a fair bit of talk in the community about the reduced frequency of Blitz updates. This, unfortunately, is unavoidable: Blitz is morphing into BlitzMax which is a relatively big project." -- Mark Sibly's worklogs

Quote: "
No matter what language you use, I would like to see some honesty.
"


I agree and I am being honest. If you like Blitz, use that, if you like DBPro use that. Fine by me, not trying to convert anyone, just telling the truth. As I have been using Blitz 2D since August 2000 and Blitz 3D since September 2001 and DB since 1999 and DBPro since 2002.

DBPro is still young yet and its getting further and further away from DB Classic as far as having more low level commands and more control. DBPro is becoming more like a Blitz 3D that is using current technology.

This september, Blitz 3D turns 2 years old. Thats 24 months of development after it went out to the public, its really spent 3 years in development total.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 13:37
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I agree with Blitz 3D being better structured, I don't think anyone would disagree with that and its more stable thats true.

However, DBPro is getting more stable and getting a lot more low-level stuff, some which Blitz 3D doesn't have yet and of course vice versa.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 14:08
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Andy, you forget, I own Blitz 3D download and boxed version with a manual and valid BUID and was a beta tester for Blitz 2D back in August- september 2000. I am over on both Blitzbasic.com and Blitzcoder daily and I read everything that goes on on both forums. I have coded non public domain programs with it.

I know whats going on with Blitz as I read the forums and keep up with the latest news or the lack of it daily.

I left DB in late 2000 for Blitz and didn't know anything about DarkEdit or anything back then, I stopped going to the DB community and only was on the Blitz community. I loved the structure of Blitz and its very well thought out and I was very excited back then and thought there was going to be a new world which DB could not touch, now thats true, no doubt about it. However, I was promised stuff that never came true like mark had said that he would add Direct X 8.0 support soon after the release and a BSP compiler and it started to go down hill ever since.

I was sooooo excited about Blitz and so religious about it - I was a lot like you, finally DB had some competition and it was going to kick db's butt and I was not looking back. Blitz crushed DB, sure, but it really never innovated in the way that it should have. Lots of promises broken, just like DBS has done in the past. I expected better and better is what I got, but no growth.

Instead of Mark Making Maplet, why doenst he have redflame (Rob Cummings) create the same program, or Birdie to do it. He wastes a lot of time that he could use to get stuff done. Now Dave Birdies Program kills Maplet and just puts it to shame. All that work just wasted, why not have Dave Birdie design maplet instead?

I could go on, but I don't want to be a downer. My suggestion from 18 months ago are now at least coming true for Blitz (code base consolidation).

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 15:53
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ya know i got bored and skipped most of that, probably have the simple ghist... "ooh Blitz is good" or "ooh DB is good"

now to be perfectly honest most of ya'll are just being complete idiots :: suddenly notices they've all aim'd thier guns at him ::

PureBasic is better technically than both languages, it can use several operating systems ... and 3D Library you want, either interfaced or in native Library form.
you can code in ASM natively, you can code DLLs, there is even a Visual Editor and the IDE was relased in the last Patch as an example to learn from.

so really if you wanna sit there on your soap box about the best damn'd BASIC language DB and Blitz are both bottom of the league compared to PB.

this post is just getting insane really

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 16:20
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But this is a DB board, not a PB or BB board. I would'nt expect a purebasic user to come here and start shit like this, I expect it from Blitzers because they do it every 6 months or so, then try and make it look like we're the trolls. I reckon this topic is a testimony to how much crap we can take without resorting to all out flaming.

I mean Redflame claims that his DBC examples from years ago are better than anything we've done in DBPro - how the hell are we supposed to take arguments like that seriously?.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 08:46
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yeah well i'm by far not one of PB's biggest fans, as i don't like it and i barely even use it ... i'm just saying that this pissing contest is getting us nowhere when that bigass jamacan over at PB has an unfair advantage

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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 22:28 Edited at: 6th Jun 2003 22:29
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"Now for my own opinion on Darkbasic. I did the terrain, particle party, reflection and draco examples for original darkbasic. How I did these still confounds some people. I was proud at the time and still own the original box that Rich sent. It is unopened and looked after."

Redflame, admittedly you are a very talented coder, and that has held DBP back, because a lot of Blitzers who came from DBC have not yet moved back - but if Blitz stays as behind as it is now - that will eventually happen.

Patch 5 adds the last of the missing low-level commands (ie. direct vertex data access) and will bring DBP up to DX9, and not a half-assed update either - the whole shebang (saw the latest tech demo this morning - wow! ). The portal and CSG commands are things that Blitzers have been after for ages (I know - I read the feature request forums there).

Mark seems to change his mind pretty frequently, one minute he goes all out to add BSP support, then he practically just ignores it. Maplet was another example. Mark spent ages coding that, while DBS just marketed Cartography Shop.

Finally - I can contact Lee or Mike, I can get a response from them, Mark is an enigma which very few Blitzers can get through.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 13:25
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Quote: "Finally - I can contact Lee or Mike, I can get a response from them, Mark is an enigma which very few Blitzers can get through."


i can get through to mark ... might just be me - and although he isn't a widely as available as the DBS team, but you can still contact him if you want to.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 14:35 Edited at: 7th Jun 2003 14:42
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Well I have left 5 messages from Mark and there have been no replies to any of them. This was supposed to be a big Blitz advantage, it was at the begining, but I think things have changed there.

I have just now come back to the DB community, I have been gone since 2000 when Blitz 2D came out. I was excited about it back then, but I didn't know support was going to drop off and not much was to be changed.

Blitz 3D does have some advantages over DBPro..

1) Platform Stability. Because its DirectX 7 it works on just about every computer imaginable with at least Windows 95 and DirectX 7.

2) Code Stability. Not many if any major crashes or huge bugs holding back coders.

3) Low Level support for 3D. Nice and low level support, doesn't try to get in your way and do everything for you.

Thats all I could really think of and as DBPro matures, there will be less and less advantages. This September, DBPro will be one year old, Blitz 3D two years old and there havent been any major changes with Blitz's 3D engine which along with using such an old out dated DirectX explains why its so stable.

Patch 5 and 6 (Upgrade 5 and 6) should reverse #2 and #3. There should be more low-level features in DBPro than Blitz by Patch 6 if everything goes as planned.

DBPro has been slow since it began because of two main reasons, fixing bugs and rewriting the entire 3D engine from the ground up a second time to change the entire structure, so this increased speed dramatically, but it also took a long time to put together, that and the scene graph thats being used. Patches should come out quicker after Patch 5.

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Andy
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 19:29
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>I was sooooo excited about Blitz and so religious about it - I was a
>lot like you

I am not excited nor religious about B3D... I could and would use any language to achieve what I wanted to achieve.

>Instead of Mark Making Maplet, why doenst he have redflame (Rob
>Cummings) create the same program, or Birdie to do it. He wastes a
>lot of time that he could use to get stuff done. Now Dave Birdies
>Program kills Maplet and just puts it to shame. All that work just
>wasted, why not have Dave Birdie design maplet instead?

>Mark seems to change his mind pretty frequently, one minute he goes
>all out to add BSP support, then he practically just ignores it.
>Maplet was another example. Mark spent ages coding that, while DBS
>just marketed Cartography Shop.

Mark has made it pretty clear that he uses BPlus and Maplet as a way of developing the technology that will go into BMax... Maplet is not just a useless tool, it is a way for Mark to develop and perfect things which will go into BMax and B3D.

>I expect it from Blitzers because they do it every 6 months or so,
>then try and make it look like we're the trolls.

The reverse is the case on BB...

>I reckon this topic
>is a testimony to how much crap we can take without resorting to all
>out flaming.

Is it crap to ask bltz2dbpro to tell us why he is spending so much time on several forums denigrating Mark Sibly? I am guessing that his reason is personal, but he masquerades it by critizising Blitz Research and their products instead.

Andy





This entire discu

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SS1k
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 07:04
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Ok, hear is my two cents.

I personaly beleave the strength in the programming language dose not lye in the fucnctions, the speed, or the power of the tools. It lyes in the syntax and if you understand the language.

For instance, I am makeing a demo for my new game Morpheus:Keeper of Dreams. Now, I could program the game in almost any language I wanted. C++, Java 3D, VB, Pascal, hell I could even do it in Assembaly! However, even tho the final verson will be in C++, I chose not to use in for the demo. Why? Because even tho I understand most of it, it is a real pain in the @$$ for me to adopt and learn the syntax and the commands. I find C++ more code like and criptic.

The first programming language I learnd and masterd in 2 months was a dummy language called FutureBASIC. They teach it at most high-schools because it is real eazy to learn and its syntax is very familer to other programming languages. For example:


Now, I have learned many minor-to-major programming languages. However, when finding a language to make the Demo, I wanted something that is fast, flexable, and I can understand the syntax better. It was a choice between Blitz Basic, Dark Basic, and Jamagic. I picked DB obiously. Why? Altho Blitz Basic is eazy to learn the commands, it is so english like that its not very flexible to me at all. I am more of a coding person. I will rather impliment a game engin than artisticly desine one, because I like to be hands on with my projects. I could have programed with Jamagic, but it is very similer to Javascript`s syntax, and I have issues with them.(IE. Having to put all images and moddles into a little bin with src than just importing them and giving them a variable name.)

So, the bottem line. I chose DB because it reminded me of the eaze of FutureBASIC without being to rigid and overly-complex. I could have done it eather way. However, in the end, the type of language you use depends on what the program is, how you want to make it, and what type a programer you are.

What ever floats your boat.

.:SIDEP0CKET:.
:..>Mind is Thought
:..>Play is Fun
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DMXtra
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 14:52 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 14:54
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Quote: "
Is it crap to ask bltz2dbpro to tell us why he is spending so much time on several forums denigrating Mark Sibly? I am guessing that his reason is personal, but he masquerades it by critizising Blitz Research and their products instead.
"


Just because I don't follow him like a god like you do doesn't mean I have a personal grudge against Mark. I am a realist and I am just pointing out the facts to people. I don't hate mark and I am not out to get him, only someone as religious as yourself would think that.

See this thread...

http://www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=22220
or this one
http://www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=22182

I am just calling it like I see it. I have been with Blitz 3D for almost two years now and Blitz 2D for longer, its not like I have not used the language or know whats going on.

I am just point out the truth and its a truth that you do not like, so I can't really help that.

It is what it is...
Just because you don't like what you see, don't be hate'n.

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Andy
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 01:30
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>Just because I don't follow him like a god like you do

You seem to have the idea that just because you keep repeating it it becomes reality...

>doesn't mean I have a personal grudge against Mark.

When you use 3 different forums to denigrate everything Blitz, then I personally start wondering what your agenda is. You don't just attack B3D, but also MS personally, BPlus, Maplet, Blits Research business practices and everything Blitz you can think of...

>I am a realist and I am just pointing out the facts to people. I
>don't hate mark and I am not out to get him, only someone as
>religious as yourself would think that.

So you don't like that I am calling your bluff, and decides to change the subject into how 'religeous' I am...

As for your links, I bought DB and wasn't satisfied with the product and support. I recognize that DB Software and Blitz Research has different business strategies, so it is more than just DBP vs. B3D.

Bottomline for the thread is that people should use whatever tool suits them... I don't personally use DBP, but I think that great games can be made with it.

Andy

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DMXtra
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 14:09
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Quote: "
When you use 3 different forums to denigrate everything Blitz, then I personally start wondering what your agenda is. You don't just attack B3D, but also MS personally, BPlus, Maplet, Blits Research business practices and everything Blitz you can think of...
"


I am not attacking anyone. I am just stating my reasons why I am not so in love with Blitz. You need to not be so sensitive, I don't have time to sit and try to find reasons to say something negative about Mark. I have better things to do, but I will give my opinion on how I see things and call them like I see them. I don't suck up to him like the rest of the community does. One of the biggest problems with the Blitz community is Hero Worship, they worship Mark like its the second coming. I don't worship mark or lee or mike or guy, there is no need for that.

Quote: "
So you don't like that I am calling your bluff, and decides to change the subject into how 'religeous' I am...
"


suit yourself, but I never tried to change the subject.

Quote: "
As for your links, I bought DB and wasn't satisfied with the product and support. I recognize that DB Software and Blitz Research has different business strategies, so it is more than just DBP vs. B3D.
"


Well at first I loved DB in 1999, but your right, I wasn't satisfied and eventually moved on to Blitz, now Blitz is where DB was years ago. Its a lot more advanced yes, but suffering from the same problems.

DBS has changed drastically over the years, they now actually have a team to work on DBPro instead of one person who doesn't know how to program 3D, they got Mike who is pretty good at what he does in 3D and Networking, guy has an awesome IDE, compared to that crap that DBClassic had. DBPro is getting further and further away from the old DB command set into low level commands and its starting to move forward fast.

Quote: "
Bottomline for the thread is that people should use whatever tool suits them... I don't personally use DBP, but I think that great games can be made with it.
"


I agree with you here

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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 11:22
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Oooh it looks like a sterio type war going on ere.

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 14:14
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I'm going to make it simple: why are Blitz advocates using DB forums to talk about how good Blitz is? And second, why the heck are us DBers falling for it?

I always thought these forums were about needing help, finding teams, and announcing DB games or other products? I personally don't go to other people's forums (ie Blitz) and use their forums to spout how much better DB is over Blitz. Heck, I doubt I would know really as I have never used Blitz. My point: lets just get back to business and kill this thread.

I'm seeing why these threads get deleted now. I thought you could simply say something along the lines of "well, dbp has this and that" and someone else would say "blitz supports this other thing and that other thing" so that people can make a desision on which product to buy.

Reason's I chose DB: I tried Jamagic first and realized that it needed some graphics overhaul. DB seemed to have a very solid Graphics engine. I didn't really care about anything else as long as DB supported Vertex lighting, 3d meshes, mesh frame switching, and the 3D graphics engine was solid (which it is in my opinion... it's other features that need help). I figured I'd do ALL the physics myself (I'm sick, I like playing with Sine and Cosine and plotting vectors etc....).

Anyways, that's my story about it. Don't think it will make Jerry Springer's show .

Current Projects: Game Spawn 85%, mini BSP maker 50%, Height Mapper with many features 75%, Space Tactical (Like BC300AD) 15%.
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 17:56 Edited at: 24th Jun 2003 17:59
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Hey i learned about both DB and BB at the same time and i looked at BB for 10 minutes and couldn't uderstand it, then i looked at DB and fell instantly in love with it, its syntax made sense to me and i liked the fact they didn't offer 1 2D and 1 3D, i am a DB fan and never like BB.

i did, though, go back over and downloaded the BB demo after i learned DB and DBPro but still i didn't like it cause it lacked the creative functions that i saw in DBPro and the potential i see in its growth.

i don't wanna diss BB but i think DBPro is better, as for all your stability pluses i dont care, its not the language(well sorta it is) its the skill the programmer has. cause BB has built-in heightmapping (i think) well DBPro users came up with one, so everything is available for both it just requires dll or creative coders like on the DBPro forums.

Thank You Apollo you have taught me that a great community and a good language can make anything possible. Thumbs up

In our hearts and minds we keep the powers of love, hope and the hidden powers of evil in which we can mold a hero or daemon of ourselves-Book of Enoch Chapter III
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Van B
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 19:03
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LOL! - won't this topic die!!!!

If it does'nt go away soon I'm gonna get my crayons out and scribble all over it!.


Van-B

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 19:14
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Van you get the DBTanks and I'll rally an army well destoy this post once and for all...Muhahahahahahahahahahahaha

In our hearts and minds we keep the powers of love, hope and the hidden powers of evil in which we can mold a hero or daemon of ourselves-Book of Enoch Chapter III
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 19:18
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Just think of all the think DBPro has got that BB hasn't (as far as I know) :

A) Printing (by me)
B) Database access (by me)
C) E-Mailing (by me again)

plus more

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Arkheii
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 13:00
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In my understanding, OpenGL is faster than DirectX because of the video card support etc. DirectX can achieve near similar graphics quality, but it allows it even on slower machines. Well, that's how I understood it. Is this correct?

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WarHunterX
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 07:58
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People, people! All this time you were muddling over which compilier was better, you all could have been working on projects instead. Then you would have solid proof which one is more capable. Instead of words, there would be games/demos to try out and really see. I still believe it depends on the coders preference. Who gives a s**t who the "other guy" uses? Just keep coding, and mind your own business!

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