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3 Dimensional Chat / Need some advice on choosing a 3d modeler

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MikeS
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 05:26
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Recently I've been trying all kinds of 3d modelers.

I've tried

-anim8or
http://www.anim8or.com/main/index.html

-milkshape
http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalumsoft/ms3d/index.html

-truespace 3.2
http://www.caligari.com/

-blender
http://www.blender3d.com/

-wings 3d
http://www.wings3d.com/

while most of them are good, I really don't know which one to settle on.I also ask for any advice on why to pursue one of these, or any other that I might not have listed.(3ds max, maya,lightwave, etc.)
Although I do have a budget of under $500.
(So that excludes 3ds max, maya)

Also some of the packages above(truespace,milkshape,anim8or)also have built in animation which makes them even more tempting to buy.

To sum up this topic(if you didn't understand my words above)

What modeler would you get, that's priced below $500, and would work well with dark basic pro, giving good results?

*note- I know milkshape will be a popular anwser, so I will definitly keep looking at this software.


Thanks in advance
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Xander
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 06:29
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Yeah, Milkshape would be the obvious answer, with all of the features and animation, although I have yet to buy it. No money right now. Anim8or (which I use) is free, but the animation does not work very well at all with DarkBasic. Darn. I downloaded Blender, cause it's free, but can't really figure it out. (any help anybody?) If you want my advice, and you have money, then go buy Milkshape and Simple's Unwrap software. Good Luck. Just make sure you try them all out a lot, until they all bug the heck out of you with shareware messages

Xander
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actarus
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 13:45
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-with all of the features and animation

In case you didn't notice,features are what is lacking big time in MS3D,actually,in the above list,it's the worst of them.

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Arrow
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 19:52
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I'ld stick with Milkshape, soon MS2 will be out sooner or later which'll guve Maya and Max a run for there money (hopfully).

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actarus
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 20:11 Edited at: 5th Jun 2003 20:21
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-I'ld stick with Milkshape, soon MS2 will be out sooner or later which'll guve Maya and Max a run for there money

That'd be a hard task.

Come to think of it though,Max is something else.

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MikeS
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 23:33
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Thanks for your reply's



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lcfcfan
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 00:23
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I would personally use truespace it is technically superior to milkshape in every way, the only thing i don't like about it is it's interface but when you have got used to it then it's a very good choice!

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MikeS
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 01:03
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So far I've narrowed it down to

anim8or-very simple, although animation is not good with DBP
milkshape-gives great results in most aspects
(i'm a bit inspired by simple's models.)
truespace 3.2-although a hard interface, I can use the free full version.

Thanks for all of your replies.



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Rellik
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 05:24
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TrueSpace 3.2 is free? How so? Where can I get it? I've used trueSpace before, but no longer have it, and it certainly wasn't free then. By the way, trueSpace was pretty cool, the interface wasn't THAT bad (I could use it, anyway, and I don't have any special 3d skill). Haven't tried it with Dark Basic, as I'm still kind of new at both.

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MikeS
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:17
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Anyone have any recommendations on Poser 4?
I have the money to spare, for poser 4 (not enough for 5 though )

Some of the images I've seen are really quite impressive, but I wonder what the compatiability is with DBP.
Any info. given out would be much appreciated.
(Raven, or whoever owns poser 4, etc.)

I'll keep looking into Poser 4 till I find more info.

But as for now, I've almost settled in on milkshape.

As for free truespace 3.2, I lied about that. jk, jk
http://download.com.com/3000-2186-10187913.html
go here for a download.


Thanks for the replies.


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Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:30
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With your budget..Milkshape hands down. I personally hate the program myself..but it's your best option.

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
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MikeS
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:42
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Right now milkshape is also a good choice because it is license free when you buy it I believe.So I have less to worry about if I sell anything.(If that ever happens.)

As of now I'm reading all of the license agreements for the other 3d modelers, so I'll let you know if I find out anything important.



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WindTech
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:47
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Lightwave 7.5....nuff said.

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MikeS
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:56
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As much as I'd love to get Lightwave 7.5, I'm trying to work under a $500 budget.I think that's around 300 pounds.

Lightwave would definitly be a choice to consider once I have a $1500 budget.



Still seeking info. on poser 4&5 along with truespace 5.2.



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actarus
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 21:06
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Lightwave isn't worth it you'll have 3000$ and + to pay for licensing on a commercial use for each PC it is installed on.

I personally asked the author of anim8or nd he doesn't care if you make money with his product,a credit would be appreciated but no obligated.

AFA trueSpace goes,I read the EULA and nothing seems to protect them for it as well.

Forget about poser,it's models aren't useable in realtime,unless you want to animte them for a pre-rendered movie which would require another application too..


You can go with Milkshape also but keep in mind that it does NOT have many modeling tools,mainly relies on a split edge bisection function.

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MikeS
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 21:13
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Thanks for your help everyone.

Right now I'm gonna practice with both truespace, and milkshape, and I'll soon let you all know my decision.(just incase your interested.)



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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 23:23 Edited at: 9th Jun 2003 23:26
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I like Gmax, its free aswell.

http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/

Download the tuts and help aswell, they help a lot.

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Misanthrope
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 23:44
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Free stuff's always a good place to start.

I use 3D Canvas Pro because it's cheap, powerful, scriptable, it's a DirectX native modeller, and I can write DLL plugins for it to expand its capabilities and export to any file format that I have a specification for. It's also fun and extremely intuitive for me. The last version of it that exported to .X for free was 3.32, IIRC. But the demo is still freeware and good enough to see if it's just right for you.

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Rellik
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 00:56
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I have LightWave, and I don't think it works with DarkBasic... or at least I don't see how.
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John H
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GMax is just a good learning tool for max. There is some crazy liscense you have to pay to use GMax models in a game Id go with milkshape.

RPGamer

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Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Go to the Eternal Destiny Forum!
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MikeS
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 01:48
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I really like milkshape because of it's simplicity, though truespace is very simple two once you learn what all the icons do. The main deciding factor will probebly come down to which animations come out better with dbp, although I did get a copy of character fx, with my copy of dbp.

Alright that last line really makes no sense.(lol)

Right now it's really a tough choice.



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JAT
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Allow me to plug my editor, JTEdit, which although it is still alpha-release quality, it is free, and probably has the best read and write .x support of any editor that I know of (note that I wrote the Milkshape DirectX (JT) exporter). It's definitely not as easy to use as many editors, but it's quite powerful once you understand it (and can dodge the bugs inherent in an alpha release). Check it out at http://www.jtgame.com/jtedit.

Any day now (I hope tomorrow) I'll put up a new release with a new .3ds file format plug-in, once I figure out the animation format, which I've been stuck on (and which many editors punt on, I've noticed).

-JT

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MikeS
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 17:39
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I'm trying it out, pretty impressive, with what I've done so far.



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MikeS
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Gah, so hard to chose.

I really like milkshape, but it's not really good for world building.
(Although the main concern is just modeling char. and objects.)

I've spent about an 1 1/2 hours battling truespaces interface.Still havn't come up with much.(even with the help of tutorials.

I'm still seeking advice on any modelers.(remember $500 budget)

::I wish I had enough money for lightwave , hint, hint.(j/k)

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Simple
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Cinema4D R8 >> http://www.maxon.net/index_e.html

It's good for high poly AND low poly

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actarus
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 04:31
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Simple:Any licenses fee for commercial purposes?

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MikeS
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Now I'm looking into Lightwave.
(I'm a bit inspired by brent's and windtech's models made in lightwave i believe)

If anyone knows where I can get a good deal on lightwave 7--> or lightwave 6 I'm all ears.

(don't worry folks, soon enough I will come to a decision and this post will close.)



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Rellik
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Lightwave is really confusing I would probably learn on something else first, if I were you. Not that I know anything.
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actarus
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 14:59 Edited at: 11th Jun 2003 15:00
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Well you know at least one thing.

Yellow:Try the different demos available,if we were to list all of the modelers that are worth trying we'd still be listing them out...

...and try to go for the lowest license fee,you don't wanna go half-way through a game design to find out the Newtek or Maxon guys ask you for a 2000$ license contract or something.

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Simple
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There's NO license fee to pay once you have bought Cinema4D ...... basically >> whatever you make is yours to do as you wish.

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actarus
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 16:15 Edited at: 11th Jun 2003 16:15
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That's a very good deal then .

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MikeS
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AND THE WINNER IS..................

CINEMA 4d R8

here's why (for those of you who are also looking for a modeler)

I downloaded a trial version today of cinema 4d.I had already made a pretty detailed head and body(unfortuantley I could not save.)on my first attempt with the software.It's very simple like wings 3d, you pretty much just pull faces, and extrude them.(but there's so much more than that radiosity(to make your renders look great,polygon crushers, very easy workflow,great lighting effects,etc,etc.)

Now your saying yeah sounds pretty good, but those other modelers you mentioned have some of these features.Of course cinema 4d is also at a budget price.I've found it for $400, while that's expensive, it's a great price for high quality modeler.

Here's why I didn't chose the others.

anim8or-animations weren't working well with DBP.No where near the results of c4d.(of course it is freeware so really no complaining.)
truespace-While truespace ranked 3rd out of these choices, I just couldn't get use to the interface after about 5 hours work.
(not much time when you consider, but enough to give you the idea.)
Overall I probebly could've gotten something out of this, but I wasn't willing to work with it.
milkshape-Ah, No.2 choice. I still may even purchase this for a friend that I'm trying to get into db.(he's learning the program now.)Very easy to use, and I was inspired by simples models(and everyone elses)to keep working at it, but cinema 4d beat it out.
blender-I really didn't give this program a fair shot, just looking at the interface confused me and I wasn't willing to give into it.
wings-Well what can I say, I wouldn't be as good as a modeler today if I hadn't started out with this very basic modeler.With no direct animation support it kinda threw it out.(I'm not complaining though,it's freeware, and I recommend it to anyone getting into 3d modeling.)
lightwave-Budget
3dsmax-Budget
maya-Budget

The last three were all budget concerns, that's all I can say.Plus the license fees I would have to pay if I wanted to sell any of the models, or use them in a commercial game.

Now the top 2 reasons to choose cinema 4d.
According to Simple(and I will further invtigate,before i officially buy)
NO LICENSE FEE!!!!1
and the number 1 reason

The ease of use, and the simple and adjustable interface.While everyone likes their interfaces different this is what suits me best.

Thanks to everyone that posted, and helped by providing suggestions and any comments.



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actarus
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 15:20
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-I wouldn't be as good as a modeler today if I hadn't started out with this very basic modeler.

Sorry but LOL!!


I wouldn't be surprised if there'd be less modeling tools in C4D...(come to think of it,I'm quite sure)


Good Luck and have fun

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kfoong
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I dont like milkshape3d, it has too many bugs. Once in animation it took me a long time to make all the animations then one arm inverted and went 180 degrees y. Took quite a long time to fix. Though it is the only one that I know that is cheap that can animate.

Wings3D is good for its modelling, better than milkshapes in my opinion. So i use wings for modelling and milkshape for animating

Heh heh... Mule...
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actarus
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Kfoong,if you're stuck with a tool or just need help to achieve something,post your question on this board.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 21:28 Edited at: 12th Jun 2003 21:31
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Damn, I knew there would be a catch with GMax (I like all the crazy extra tools that you get), it was too good to be free. How would they tell if you used their models in a game? I tried the milkshape demo, but I couldn't get the hang of it.

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MikeS
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 22:47
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Anim8or tutorial
http://craig1913.tripod.com/rumble/id3.html

milkshape tutorial
http://www.gen3d.de/MS3DTutorial/

cinema 4d tutorial
[note your about to see a nude model,don't use this link if your against seeing it, or if your parents are in the room.]
http://www.maxoncomputer.com/tutorial_detail.asp?tutorialID=142

truespace 3.2 already has some tutorials in the program.
You can download here.
http://download.com.com/3000-2186-10187913.html

These are the tutorials I used to learn how to model for some of the listed programs.(hope this helps you out a little in milkshape Hamish McHaggis )

Quote: "-I wouldn't be as good as a modeler today if I hadn't started out with this very basic modeler.

Sorry but LOL!!
"


It's true!(you gotta start somewhere.)
(*note wings 3d was that modeler.)

Quote: "I wouldn't be surprised if there'd be less modeling tools in C4D...(come to think of it,I'm quite sure)
"


Well, it's got what I need, and that's what matters right now.
Plus, the whole free commercial license thing is really big push.



Again

Thanks to everyone that posted, and helped by providing suggestions and any comments.




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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:01
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-I wouldn't be as good as a modeler today if I hadn't started out with this very basic modeler.

Sorry but LOL!!



It's true!(you gotta start somewhere.)
(*note wings 3d was that modeler.)



What I meant is that wings may be basic but for anything else than modeling...Hell some people switch from Maya to wings.

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MikeS
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Your right, I probebly should've reworded some of my phrases.

Wings3d is a really good modeler,it's simple to use,but you can gain powerful results if you put time into itjust like any of the other modelers.(Plus it's freeware!)



To be really honost all the modelers were good, that's why I had to post for some help to decide.The Truespace interface was bad for me, but it might have been great for someone else.It's really up to you to decide.



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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:38 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 00:38
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....But that goes in the 'Help me Choose a modeler' thread no?

Relax m8.

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kfoong
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Im not stuck with it milkshape, just dont like its bugs.

Heh heh... Mule...
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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:56 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 14:56
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I was talking about Wings.

Milkshape sux for adavnced modeling IMO

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Hamish McHaggis
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Is there a tag attached to the gmax models so that the company can recognise them?

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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 20:59 Edited at: 19th Jun 2003 15:07
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Yes,they will know the creation date,the software it's made in and the processor number or something like that

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Ravey
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 03:46
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I use Quill3D - it is developed especially for games.
i think it costs about 59 USD - well worth it when u consider the features it has.

Quill 3D gives you:

Full blown modeller
mesh builder
uvmapper (unwrapper)
scene layout and lightmapping
THEN
you get the map builder
which gives you lightmapping, csg, occlusion data etc.

check it out http://www.quill3d.tk
im using it for my game ROOT: http://www.miltronec.com



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Misanthrope
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 03:58
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Yeah, Quill3D's a NICE package.

I played around with the demo, liked it a lot. Does everything from characters to levels, with lightmapping and stuff.

The only reason I'm not buying Quill3D is because I've already hot-rodded my copy of 3D Canvas Pro 6 with DarkBasic-compatible level, character, particle, and code generator plugins. (I LOVE being a Visual Basic coder, it goes with 3DC Pro like scones with tea)

But Quill3D is very impressive for the price. I'd recommend playing around with the demo version at least.

-Misanthrope
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MikeS
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 03:59
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Wow, some pretty impressive screenshots you got there,

I checked out the site for quill3d.
Very impressive, and I can tell it was designed for blitz3d, although as long as it exports to .x(which it does)I'm good with that.

Recently my head has been in a loop between cinema4d,wings3d,truespace, and now I must further investigate on this quill3d.

Did you design everything in your game with this quill3d?

Hmmm, correct me if I'm also wrong, but is there no built in animation support?



http://www.geocities.com/yellow1dbp/index.html?1055790955556
Let me know if you want your site to have a link on my page.
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Ravey
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 04:19
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Hi

Yeah it exports to .x and spits out 2 models - one with the textures on and the other with the lightmap one to make it easy to load in to DBPro.

I built all the graphics for my game in Quill3D.

You are correct with regards to animation - it was in there originally but was taken out (to be put back in later) in favor of probably the most used part of Quill3D - the fantastic map builder which allows you do build any kind of level in side or outdoors and with the latest update allows you to import detail meshes that you have build in the mesh builder section or from anywhere else. You can use it as a level editor also and have things called "null entities" which are objects that do not affect the level visually but instead let you assign properties to them - way points or triggers etc. You can also load in your character meshes and set them to not be affected by light - allowing you to place your baddies and assign properties to them.

Anyways ive waffled on enough - although feel free to ask me any more questions about it - i am an avid quill3d fan

you can also check out whats happening with quill3d and ask questions at its forum:
http://invisionfree.com/forums/Quill3D/index.php?s=8c1ad419180cc3a0de79f7f03bc687a1
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MikeS
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 04:23 Edited at: 19th Jun 2003 04:25
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Yea, I say your name in the forums a couple times.

Although this is primarily for blitz 3d, how many db users are actually using it?

I'm very interested, because $59 is a bargain deal, and some of the screenshots I've seen are amazing!



edit: I'm also interested in the learning curve.
(although it's not much of a concern, for I'm slighty experienced with 1 or 2 other modelers.)

http://www.geocities.com/yellow1dbp/index.html?1055790955556
Let me know if you want your site to have a link on my page.
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Ravey
Retired TGC Developer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 04:34
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dont know how many users have it - but the forum is healthy and ive seen it advertised in pc format and other pc magazines here in the uk - i think its doing really well (which it should do) - using it in db or any language is nice and straight forward.

Learning curve wise - it has a full colour printed manual which takes you step by step through all the features - you will pick it up in no time as there are some really good tips in there.

The demo is a good place to start although it is a bit out of date now as there have been some excellent additions and the whole thing (especially the lightmapper) is amazingly faster.
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