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3 Dimensional Chat / Ravens Zombie model ... C&C'd

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Simple
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 21:46 Edited at: 12th Jun 2003 21:53
Right…..Some of you might think this is just a flame (But take it as you like) “I’m just criticizing this model” in the same manner he does.

A lot of you know how over the past year Raven has tried to put down my modeling and texturing every time I post up any of my models.

He gimbles on about how he is a pro and works for Westwood Studios or EA or whatever, and that the standard of my work is NOTHING compared to his or how a “pro’s” work should be.

But now, and for a change Raven….. you have posted something you have done….. SO NOW I’M GOING TO CRITISISE IT in the same manner as you do mine.

Although you posted this model up in someone else’s thread….. I’m starting this new one because I don’t want “Randi’s” zombie game to turn into a flamebait or get locked/deleted etc.

SO HERE WE GO !!!!

This is my criticism of a so called “professional modeler >(Raven)< zombie model.

Lets start with the actual model itself first…..

Firstly I’ve seen people who have only been modeling for a few months produce better quality models than this.

(Although this is a zombie… it’s still a human).

THE HEAD….. Is too big compared to the proportion of the rest of the body.
The face is just so not the right shape… the eyes are too far apart… the nose is too long which pushes the mouth down too close to the chin… The top of the head looks more like Frankenstein than a zombie with no hair. ( and you have the nerve to crit the proportions on my models )

THE TORSO…. Looks like a very badly edited 6 sliced cylinder. And clothing or not it should still hang via the contours of the body…. (there’s just NO human shape to the torso). And I haven’t seen collars like that since the 70’s and even then, they were never that bad.

THE ARMS….. again, badly edited 6 sliced cylinders. The upper arm is too long compared to the forearm… and the cloth from the jacket would fall off of the forearm if it wasn’t connected to the upper arm somehow. (it wouldn’t just sit there like that). The arms just look like slightly bent cylinders. ( traits of an amateur modeler )

THE HANDS…. Are just so out of proportion to what a hand should be. (Even as mittens) The thumb looks like it’s nearly as long as the index finger…. Even though the thumb is set back on the hand compared to where the fingers start. Their too fat as well. ( look like he’s wearing socks on his hands )

THE LEGS…. Once again, badly edited 6 sliced cylinders. And they looks like LEGO legs. Something just extruded out of a badly constructed waist. And the same goes for the trouser cloth….. impossible for it to stay up like that where the bone is … unless it was connected to the upper part of the trousers. ( hovering clothes… now there’s a new one )

THE FEET…. Well, not much you can say about them really, apart from their too long.

LOFL!! How have you got the nerve to call yourself a professional modeler for 5years and produce something as amateur as this?

And quite frankly it just looks like that cruddy “James Bond” model you made some time back, only edited into this zombie (If you can call it that).

AND NOW THE BEST BIT… THE UV MAPPING and TEXTURING.

OMG !!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t think I’ve seen a worse case of texture stretching in my life. You obviously haven’t got a clue how to Uvmap have you?…. No one would ever map a head like that (Pro or Amateur) and you’ve got the nerve to crit my models for having visible seems. The only reason you can see the seems on my model is because I’ve imported them in to Max for rendering (as a.3ds model).

The seems on my model aren’t visible once the model is in DirectX form and in Dbpro.

And how have you managed to get texture stretching on the face, when it’s been UV mapped separately??

(Any Pro would UV map the head as a whole) listen to the freelancer…. Cylinder map the head, like it’s supposed to be…. Un-fold it like a piece of paper and lay it down flat with the seem at the back of the head.

And if you are going to map the ears separately, then at least make sure they can be separated from the head properly … and not have a great big out of place face at the back of it with a nice big seem. ( I think you need to study grouping )

Also…. It’s nice to see how a pro blends the neck into the torso!!! And zombie or not (Adam’s apple anyone)!! Talk about every UV groups just stands out like a sore thumb !!

The texture job on the head and face is just atrocious…. Some of the worst I have ever seen.

Take the impossible lighting on the face for example… notice how the creases on the forehead have the light source up-side down. And is that lipstick he’s wearing? Painted on the lips while whizzing around on a roller coaster !!!

The jacket is just as bad…. Talk about seems not matching up…. Yours don’t even meet the edges of the UV’s.

And again… you just have NO concept of lighting, it’s all over the place. If you even knew how to texture a crease in clothing then you would understand what I mean.

You need to study clothing and how they would crease in conjunction with how they lay on the body…. Because you just don’t have a clue how to make creases in clothing do you?

Anyway…. All in all this is a very badly constructed model (for a so called pro… NOT ! ) and the UV mapping is terrible. BUT the texturing is the worst I’ve seen in a long time. (I’ve seen better from a noob kid).

But what makes me really laugh is here you have produce this very amateurish model which has more wrong with it than any I have ever produced. And has “ALL” the errors and more which you always try to point out with my models… like texture seem and edges which need turning and basically the whole construction.

To finish up…. Makes me laugh how you have the nerve to call yourself a “pro modeler”.

No doubt you will post up ALL your excuses for why this model looks like it does. (with you being a pro and all).

Oh…. And BTW, I just so happened to have made a zombie the other day…. Along with a few other horror type models…. So no doubt you’ll have something to gimble about soon.

Simple

















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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 22:04
lmao ... aww Simple seems to be smug with himself, be interesting to see the comments others make about this.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
haXor
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 22:09
i totaly agree wit simple.

Sup Kids
MikeS
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 22:53
I'm not getting involved this time.

But since I bothered to post anyway I'll give a simple critique.

I mean simple did make good anaylisis on some of the above stuff he mentioned, but it is a model of a zombie, and maybe raven was trying to go for a specific look.

Also I think their should be some more rips in his clothing, but other than these things, it looks pretty good.



(Current)-Conquest of the Continent Announced!!-
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APEXnow
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 22:53
Simple, I would have to say that this is a seriously unfair comparison, surely Raven has got other models that are equally detailed as your last Soldier figure which could be used for making an inpartial comparative. Besides, who cares whether the models are incomplete or not, Both yourself and Raven have created models to meet the demands of the consumer, as long as the consumer's happy, your both happy

APEXnow

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 23:46 Edited at: 12th Jun 2003 23:51
Good Raven, I'm not going to comment on the main theme of this post, so I'll just provide comments about the model. There should be something attaching the cut off bits to the rest of the clothing, or else they're gonna fall off !

p.s. This post is gonna get locked soon.

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
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actarus
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Posted: 12th Jun 2003 23:56
What a waste of time and energy...

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
darkCorridor
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:07
Not to be a bother but simple your an idiot Your gona be the one getting banned! You were looking for a flame war you were looking for action and personally i think you will soon be banned! Your just gona end up complaining that Raven started everything but you have solid proof here...

[br]mikey
actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:11 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 00:12
I'd be surprised if anyone is banned...

This place is soooo unmoderated...

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
Simple
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:15
I've never heard of anyone getting banned for a honest crit before

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Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:17
Well Simple..that was harsh..

And Raven..from the way you talk I honestly expected more. Where is your orginal post so I can see it with my own eyes and make my own decision.

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:20 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 00:21
This was an easy bash AFAIC.

Similar as kicking someone in the back after refusing a fight with him.

If he wanted to,he could easily find a 2D artist,for instance on CGTalk.com, that's been into arts for only a few years and that makes stuff that completely outcasts your 28 years of arts...but I haven't seen anyone do that yet..Geez people are kind here.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
Mattman
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:29
I say...
Nice model! Maybe not perfect but hey, it's good enough for me!

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
lcfcfan
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:31
I personally think the model is good although it looks like his face was hit by a bus (no offence raven) but that might be what raven was aiming for i dunno!

MikeS
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:33
I should've read Raven's view on the model in the post with his screenshots.He's pretty much right.

Just ignore my top post.
-----------------
Simple what are you doing?

Quote: " “I’m just criticizing this model” in the same manner he does.
"


Errrr.....must.....hold......back.....on.........arguing...Gah,ok.

I really don't wanna start a flame(so I won't, lol), but you really shouldn't do this.You've gotten me so fired up I had to stop myself from posting what I was going to post on this reply.(Yeah, that's how bad it was.)

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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:36
Lol Yellow.

Actually,Raven and Simple are in fact the same person.

it's just to generate interest over their/his threads...but who is it...The master or the Apprentice.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:37
Bah, Boys will be Boys..I say we give em boxing gloves!
But anyways..I went to ravens site and a some bit of his stuff is 'respectable'. I think he may have been drunk when he made this model...cuz Simple beat the sh*t outta it will good solid points..

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
MikeS
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:39
Oops, I said I wasn't getting involved.

(Stupid stupid stupid )



(Current)-Conquest of the Continent Announced!!-
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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:41 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 00:42
-Bah, Boys will be Boys

Actually they're both grown ups.

That's my point.

You do this to me,I do this to you...

You don't stop then I won't stop...

Far too childish.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:43
Well yeah their both grownups...but 'boys' better describes their actions in my humble opinion!

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:43
yeah i know hamish about the cloths it does look weird, but you played "The Blair Witch Project" ... dont remember which one, but when Randi said she wanted something Blair Witchy i would i'd take some inspiration from it. Though thier model has completely floating limbs which looks amusing - atleast you can see there are bones inbetween mine. I kinda figured that it would be just the bones in between but they'd be limbs in between, though with that thought in mine i might add some weights to the clothes when i finally add the IK Dynamics with some Soft Cloth in area's to edit how the clothes flow should give a good effect.

personally i though the actual overall look of the Zombie ended up similar to a Resident Evil Zombie myself.
If you'd like to know more about what i want to do with this model then feel free to read the post it came from and the background of the model ... don't remember at anypoint saying i was making a model to be realistic in anyway, just decided to take some of my sparetime to help out a forum user which Simple has decided to abuse the fact of for his own purposes.

Don't mind that a C&C has been opened up, but it would've been nice to actually have been asked before someone made a post in my name and posted pictures of my work within it - i mean christ not asking is just plain rude wouldn't you agree?

any more suggestions for it i don't mind.

[below the belt stuff]
would like to note that this is being created not to show off my skills, not to try and drum up business for anything, i'm not making any money from this, i didn't impose this on the entire forum for comments - infact it was tucked away in another post and i thought it would actually stay there as just a bit of fun.
[/end]

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 00:51
Quote: "Actually,Raven and Simple are in fact the same person.

it's just to generate interest over their/his threads...but who is it...The master or the Apprentice"


damn my whole plan rumbled... and i would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for you medaling clowns!

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 01:51
Simple - are you an only child?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 03:07
You know something, i actually decided to read that all the way through ... i wonder how much modeling techniques you actually know of beyond those Milkshape Tutorials you host.
As with half the comments you've made you've not just insulted me, but you've insulted around quarter of the industies modeling techniques.

You've assulted the visual aspect of the mesh itself, and yet the mesh is lighter in polygons and still more defined than your marine with better perspective and realism and i wasn't even going for real.
For those people who agree with the majority of your comments, well its laughable to be honest ... only 2 comments stand up - 1 is my texturing skill and the second is the nose on the head.

As one was easily fixxed and the other i'm still extremely young at, as unlike you i'm not a pixel pusher the overall job still stands up better than what you've created. I mean my model might have a terrible texture, but its actually terrible all round ... rather than hyperdetailed and right in just one area with the rest to pot.

This work might not be the best i've done but i certainly wouldn't be ashamed to put it within the polycount forum and the let the real vultures tear it limb from limb, because i know that they won't find fictious things wrong with it based on assumptions.
They're brutal, but they also know thier shit well - i'd get comments about the hands and the texture, possible about the collar setup offsetting the head. But the comments you've made, you'd be laughed out of the forum.

its amusing how the only place you can have people say they back your words is within a forum with very few actual modelers, and even fewer which are used to textureing.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Simple
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 03:48
**** well its laughable to be honest ... only 2 comments stand up - 1 is my texturing skill and the second is the nose on the head. ****

**** They're brutal, but they also know thier shit well - i'd get comments about the hands and the texture, possible about the collar setup offsetting the head. ****


( Hmmm ... well there's 4 I've mentioned )


**** You've assulted the visual aspect of the mesh itself, and yet the mesh is lighter in polygons and still more defined than your marine with better perspective and realism and i wasn't even going for real. ****

( LOL ! )

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Misanthrope
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 05:31
Well, I thought I'd throw in a couple cents myself without getting all childish and insulting about it like a certain somebody who's forgotten Rich's warning about penis size.

It's not what I would call a BAD model, but it definitely seems like a work-in-progress to me, and I wouldn't quite call it ready to ship. But it's a decent start.

Just some stuff I would do if that were my model:

I'd make the collar smaller, get rid of the lower right pants leg and the lower left shirtsleeve, alphablend the textures in those regions to look tattered and torn, and make the fingers longer in proportion to the thumbs. If necessary, rescale the hands after you've made the fingers and thumbs proportional. I'd also play around with the vertices on the head to get the facial features a little more in scale with each other.

The clothing you've already pointed out some issues with, as has Simple. I can't really add anything except that I do think the cross-sections of the body along the vertical axis could be a little smoother and not so angular. The legs are a also a little strange, there shouldn't be that much of a gap at the crotch, and the posterior is a little too flat.

This one I'm not totally certain of because the guy is smooth shaded, but there's one particular poly on the forehead that's bugging me...I'd move that topmost vertex back a little bit to round out the profile some more, and probably also split that triangle vertically so the two lower corner vertices could also be adjusted back a little bit to round out the forehead from a top-view perspective. I'd do the same for the back of the head.

I'd also make the nose less sharp...like, split it down the middle and add another poly so there's an additional triangle there to blunt the tip of the nose somewhat. I'd also try to make it less of a "perfect" triangle when viewed in profile...sort of either hook it a little or add a little inward curve at the bridge so it looks a little more natural. It'll add a few more triangles, sure, but it'd improve the face somewhat.

I'd also raise the bottom of the nose upwards a little so his face doesn't look so long along the vertical axis, and add some more emphasis to the chin. I'd turn a couple edges, if necessary, and give the chin vertices a little tug forward.

It probably wouldn't hurt to have a little 3D definition in the mouth area either...not that you should model a for-real pair of lips, but just enough of a suggestion of lips so that the texture doesn't quite look so flat around the mouth.

The UV unwrapping could also use a little more work...it looks a little rushed, and there are some proportion issues on the face texture that make the guy look a little odd, even for a zombie.

Now for my superficial nitpicks:

Nearly all walking undead I've seen look really unrealistic...the skin colors and whatnot usually chosen just don't seem right when you're aware of factors like postmortem lividity and tissue necrosis.

My nitpick here is that shade of blue on the flesh in one of the later screenshots really doesn't seem natural, and neither does the green on the bones. I'd stick to a spoiled-meat color palette for any visible offal and musculature, and a pallid gray like you have in the first textured screenshot would do splendidly for dead flesh.

This next suggestion is unrealistic because almost every corpse is embalmed before interment, but you could also mottle the flesh with bluish/reddish/purplish lividity in a few places for a little more of that good ol' "Ew, that's gross" factor. Another delicious thing to do is to have a single empty, worm-ridden eye socket or perhaps even have both eyes appear to be eaten out by carrion scavengers.

There should also ideally be some bits of gristle and whatnot on the bones...it'd be pretty unusual to see bones that clean on a zombie.

Zombies are really cool opportunities to do some neato things with alphablending...like, for instance, I'd model some teeth and the lower half of the skull, and alphablend the texture on the head so it looks like you can see teeth, bones, and muscle through gaping tears in the facial flesh. Sorta like some of the scenes in "The Mummy", before Imhotep gets all whole again, where you can see all kinds of gross things through the gashes in his necrotic cheeks.

Well, anyway, I'll probably be flamed to a crisp for this post...but there's my commentary.

-Misanthrope
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 05:51
This flame topic is sooo slow.. or maybe its just starting?

Keep it up guys!
(wat r u all looking at me like that?)

Nice model Raven!

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Kensupen
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 07:28
Just a quick note.

Simple and Raven,

I don't know if either of you have every played/play EverQuest. If you look at the models in their game, they are for the most part crap. They are extremely low poly and the texturing job is half-assed at best. the animations are Ok.

My point being EQ is one of the most popular games out right now. A model doesn't have to look "REAL" to make a game good. The main focus of a game is "content" not graphics. If a game has enough content, then all the graphics have to do is look like what it's supposed to be and the game is fun. Animations need to look realistic, but that's as far as the model needs to go. Dark Age of Camelot has much better graphics and higher poly models than EQ, but it only has like 1/50 the customer base because the content sucks.

You both need to chill if you are raggin each other's work cause you feel it's not as good as yours. Who cares. If you think it looks good, then don't give a crap what others say.

-Kensupen

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Misanthrope
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 07:46
Well, that's another way to look at it, yeah...

Rogue Spear looked pretty bad, but it was a helluva fun game too.

-Misanthrope
indi
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 09:33
yeesh, this is like a good vs evil saga.

APEXnow
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 12:06
LOL, Good vs Evil, Marine Against the undead?, err, maybe there is a connection there somewhere. Either way, whats the game gonna be called anywayz? <snigger>

APEXnow

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 12:59
Personally I think it's time both Raven and Simple were put in their place. So go check out the portfolio section at

www.thinktankstudios.co.uk

and go eat copious amounts of humble pie.

Now this lot make impressive models. I had the honour of visiting them yesterday and their latest human modelling work is just breathtakingly unbelievable. Not only does it make Simple and Raven's work look like a turd on a stick but they manage it in less polygons that your models!

I'm not trying to piss you guys off but just want to bring you down to earth as I think you're both getting a little above your station. To me it feels like you're using the position of being great modellers compared to the rest of us to act like pre-madonnas.

So basically compared to the modellers at Think Tank Studios you're both amateurs with a lot to learn.
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:00
Van B
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:10
Whoahhh!!!

Professional modellers selling models are making better models than the guys on a hobbyist site - who'd have thought it.


Van-B

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Simple
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:13
**** Not only does it make Simple and Raven's work look like a turd on a stick but they manage it in less polygons that your models!

Hmmm ! let me see ..... my last model ( 1500 poly's ) Ravens model is less than that.

The models on that website ( 5000 + ) ... Maybe I missed something ?

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The Big Babou
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:42
why not make a small challenge between raven and simple? everyone makes a model of a man and of a woman. then they send some screens, let's say, to me. I put them here and noone knows who did which model, so the forum members can judge fairly. at the end of the day, they will know who's better and don't need to flame each other. and i see 4 models, which can be released to the community so everyone gets something out of that.
The Big Babou
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:44
oh and perhaps one should make some rules, like a specific polycount or a specific time to work etc. etc.
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:48
LOL Smnple you misread my post - I was referring to the models they showed me yesterday - not the ones on their site.

and Van B, I recall Simple and Raven both stating themselves to be professionals.
kfoong
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:51 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 13:57
Here we go again...
hopefully this wont turn into a flame.
Raven and Simple, what have you got against each other?

For the little challenge, I think Simple will win (if they even try) but I maybe/maynot be wrong. I've seen more work from Simple and they are impressive, especially the Retro Compo models, but this is my first one I've seen and its not bad (coming from a newb modeller view).

Heh heh... Mule...
http://www.stellarblue.vze.com/
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:52
oh and besides Simple I sincerely doubt you could match the talent these guys showed even if you used the extra polys. But feel free to prove me wrong.

Look for the record I think you both make great models but your arrogant attitude when really both of you are not exactly breath taking modellers compared to many guys I've seen.

And another point for Van B -I've seen a lot of "hobbyists" make professional looking models that put Simple's to shame.

Ahh screw now look what you've done - I'm being sucked in to this whole tit-for-tat BS!
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 13:56
So I go on .... maybe Simple you should have checked out their 1500 and less poly ships in the Virgin interactive section. Not so easy to compare ships with humans but it makes a point.
kfoong
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:06
Wow, looking at Ravens artwork, I'm quite impressed too. So I remain unbiased.

Heh heh... Mule...
http://www.stellarblue.vze.com/
Van B
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:18
What point?

1500 polys for a ship is fairly high poly, and I'm afraid mechanical modelling and character modelling are 2 sides of the coin.

As for you being sucked in, I'd say you waded in with your socks off.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
Manic
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:31
heres an idea, i'll post both of simple's and ravens most recent models on polycount.com's forums. As non of them know either of you (i assume) they can give a fair judgement.

i know which i prefer, but i'm not saying anything.

whats the poly count on your zombie raven, looks like it should be about 800, close? ( i can't post these on polycount without letting them take the polys into account )

Manic (staying relatively out of the argument)

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:35
My point is that Simple and Raven need to appreciate that they are not both perfect. They are not the dogs bollox. The fact is that they both have valid points criticising each other's work because neither of them are making work that is what I would deem as "pro" standard - by this I mean PERFECT - which is what those models on that site are. Whether hobbiests or not is irrelevant.

There attacks on each other are utterly immature and if I were looking at employing either of them I would run a mile. Is that the kind of attitude you'd want on your staff?

My point is that this whole inferiority complex they have for each other is unjustified. This childish battling is unjustified. They both have a lot to learn and could ultimatly benefit from each other instead of trying to tear each other down. I mean what kind of tosser does that?

Ultimatly I really don't give a damn. They only make each other look stupid in front of all the other forum dwellers so I am merely trying to bring them back down to earth with a practical demonstration of why they need to do so.
actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:39
Ya gotta ask yourself what PRO means on a amateur forum...

I mean,I remember posting a model(TEXTURED) of Kabuto Koji(Alcor for the French people or Kohai ) and although it didn't suck,I got comments like 'very pro'...'game worthy' and all eventhough I actually didn't think it was myself.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:44
Look, whther they deny it or not Raven and Simple consider themselves Pro. Does it matter if the FORUM is amateur or not?
actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:48
I've seen Simple claim alot of stuff but not being a pro.

He's an hobbyist just like you and me.

Anyways,if you really wanna know who's what,why don't you read the forums thoroughly in every word,maybe that'll help you make your mind.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
Simple
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 14:49
kfoong .... Bare in mind that NOT ALL the artwork on ravens forum is his own work.

You may look at a medical bay door and then the concept art work and think WOW ! but only the door is ravens work ( NOT the comcept art )

And as he has specified that he has ALL of the original Lara Croft models on his HD, adds the question whether that Lara Crof is ALL his own work.

The only other stuff which is his work is that Black Opps and C&C style buildings ( very impressive stuff ) !!!!


Soyuz ..... your Gimbling !!

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

Soyuz
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 15:06
Gimbling!! lol well maybe. I just want to see the world as a happy and friendly place where we all get along and give each other our last Rolos.

I mean simple you say in another thread that you pick up work through showing your stuff on these forums. But really you have to wonder if you've lost an equal amount through people reading the flaming you've been involved in. Just think about that for two seconds instead of dissing it off.

Maybe you feel the satisfaction you get dissing Raven is worth losing those jobs - even if it were a large gaming project worth tens of thousands? Because any respectable gaming company wouldn't care who was to blame, they would just see the arguing taking place and the alarm bells would start ringing.

Remember, this is a public forum and DB Pro is gaining reputation all the time. Ignore my words if you wish, I have nothing to lose.

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