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Program Announcements / A Top Gear test track simulator .. need feedback

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 23:26
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Okay, this is not masterpiece, but i think it gives a reasonable impression of the top gear track for fun use.
what I need to know though, is how it appears on other computers.
In particular, I have seen a win 2000 setup in which the text is oversize .. and I don't understand why. the fonts weren't set on large size I was told.
Again, do the graphiscs appear too bright or washed out? need an average here, some monitors are set very bright others are dull.

Any comments would also be welcome on how the mouse steering control works ( it is bad I think, but I can't get it better!)

And also how do you find the car physics realism? I have never driven a car at the limit, and I don't know what should be changed , if anything.
It might even be worth downloading just to have, because I wonder if the top gear people will one day notice it and demand I remove this junk copy of their 'intellectual property" !
In any case, comments and criticism welcome .. though i can't guarantee i will be able to change much .. I've reached that stage of mental blank/exhaustion over the thing.

the address of the download page is below >>

http://www.muddleglum.orcon.net.nz/darktopgear.htm

cheers all .... David L.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 23:33
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whoops. more .. it is written in db classic. but using the new 1.2 version with object light commands.

As a matter of interest i tried adding a bit of specular lighting to almost everything at one stage, trying to capture the way the sun can glint of a track ahead in the GT games. it looks though that you need some sort of blended or bump mapped texture to do properly.


David L.
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Mr Tank
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 01:02 Edited at: 26th Oct 2007 01:04
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This is very cool. Ran perfectly well on my oldish computer. I got lost though, but i guess i just need practice. Realism seems good, but i'm no expert really. Driving with a mouse is a bit tricky, but again perhaps more practice is required.

Also, if you want to make it look really "Top Gear", do some vignetting in the replays. You'd just need a dark ghosted plain in front of the camera. Not sure if they use this on the "test track" sections though.

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 06:40
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Thanks for that mr tank .. hope someone else comments on the text.
perhaps if I put a coupl eof screen shots here a few more might be encouraged to look.

I'll try one going into hammer head ..

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 06:41
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and another um .. near the end .

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 06:43
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what the heck .. also going around the tyres.

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dark coder
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 06:50
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How do you even turn? I could accelerate and brake but nothing I mashed seemed to turn, also opening the 'options' failed, I tried pressing O the 0 then numpad 0 nothing worked .

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 06:53
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There you go.
BTW mr tank, you are possibly right about the vignette, but i decided not use the top gear style views in replay because they miss so much of the track. You don't realize until you try to plot it out yourself.
The views are highly zoomed mostly, and they edit/cut from one interesting bit to the next. A bit of an art form.
It actually takes around 12-13 seconds to reach hammerhead from chicago and yet it seems almost instant on tv. I guess tv time is far too valuable to be taken up with the boring bits!

hi ho. david L.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 07:05
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HI dark coder .. just seen your post

that's a very odd problem. the only thing i can think is this ...
I have noticed that the key presses are very slow on my computer, as though they have been set that way by DB classic. (My normal type response is quick. )
And I certainly don't know how to change it.
While using the prog. i have got into the habit of using key 'holds'. rather than a tap as you would normally expect.


( unless you did what i do sometimes with caps lock on by mistake!)

It's just occured to me that it may be a 1.2 clasiic version matter because I don't remember it on the older version.
Shall see what i can find.

actually it is one reason why i was considering going to mouse clicks for selection, but there was the matter of using the mouse steering at the same time, which i didn't really want to think about at the end of all the effort.

Okay , maybe i will have to think about it! point taken.
see what others might say.

cheers David L.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 11:22
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@Muddlegum
Greate car simulation! The suspension felt maybe a bit too wobbly though because the car was just rocking from side to side!

@dark coder
If you have a joystick it automatically uses that instead for turning

FREE 2D PHYSICS PLUGIN!!!
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 16:58
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I'm going to have to download this a bit later and give it a try. I'm a huge fan of Top Gear (we get it on BBC America here in the States). I take it so far you can only drive the "Reasonobly Priced Car," right? That's awesome, I'd love to beat celebrity times and I'm sure I'll never get to try it in real life, hehe.

You should be able to race The Stig (or his fat American Cousin, lol). And maybe the three hosts as well, based on their specific driving styles and whatnot. Just a few ideas if you ever look to expand on this game. You should send this into the show when it's finished... maybe you'll get an on-air mention!


Text Adventure Competition 2007
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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 17:12
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I read the other day that GT will have about 40 episodes of TG you can download onto the PS3, plus the TG test track to bomb around. Dunno if that is just for in the UK though. Although I'm sure I read somewhere of nutty worldwide viewing figures once (like a billion or something daft).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 17:38
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yeah, as I understand it, it's one of the biggest shows on TV, if not *the* biggest. I wouldn't worry about getting sued by the BBC though or anything, and heck, I'd tell them about the game just to see if I could get on international television, hehe.

I played it just now because this caught my interest quite a bit. Figured I'd give my analysis . First and foremost, the controls could use a third option. Some joysticks, like my Saitek X52, aren't really intended to be whipped around too much (except in virtual flight emergencies, of course), and more serious flight sim fanatics than myself might not be keen on that. I've had conversations with other X52 owners, who all seem to dispise games like the Battlefield series because they're afraid it'll "wear out" their very expensive sticks. I personally think that's rubbish, it's a "joy"-stick, not a "serious"-stick lol.

Anyway, for those terrified of hurting their precious stick with repetitive motion (as few as they are), the mouse option was, in my opinion, well tuned and perfectly balanced, and the addition of the cursor was great as well. But you might consider adding in a standard WASD control layout for familiarity. Also, the ability to shift and use a clutch, while complicated coding-wise, would heighten this game's realism considerably.

One more feature I'd love to see: celebrity times! I'd love to know if I was faster than Ewan McGregor, Gordon Ramsay, and Hugh Grant. I'd help you find the times if you wanted to add that in, it's one of those things I've always wanted to do .

All in all, this is a great deal of fun. Very good work


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dark coder
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 18:45
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Quote: "@dark coder
If you have a joystick it automatically uses that instead for turning"


I don't.

Also I noticed you can go in reverse at infinite speed then crash the game however there wasn't much else I could test with only two directions

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Robin
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 23:03
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can't steer either. I'm on a laptop.
At the beginning is says 'steering: joystick', although I have no joystick...

can you let the user select whether to use arrowkeys/joystick rather than automatically select one for you? I really want to give this a go, looks good

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Turoid
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 00:44
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This is nice. After struggling around with the keys and options and such I managed to drive around and viewed my replay! Lots of fun!. You got those car physics very well done. Actualy I'm very interested in them.. Like.. I'm struggling for about 5 years now creating crap car physics haha. And yours 'feels' nice, ooh I am so jaleous. Except that you should make the steering using the arrowkeys . Good job!

I am awesome and always right.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 07:43
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Okaaaay.
Lots of things here. thanks guys for the comments.

Turoid ..
Steering with arrow keys was the first alternate option I tried... the reason being that only some keys can be read at the same time and they were the most obvious turn related ones. It turned out that the keys were so close together in use that they were an absolute pain. Crossed fingers everywhere. And trying to handle quickly with throttle and brake was a mental co-ordination disaster.

Tried shifting throttle elsewhere but the conbination kept being a problem .. keys being overidden ... and I also wanted to be able to have thottle held until that 'ready to go' moment , and that required use of another key able to be simulataneously read ( else you lose your power until you repress. pain. )
Cutting a long story short , what you get is what worked for me.

Not the best, agreed, but keyboards are limited. I thought putting the steering out to the mouse was a fair compromise.
Not sure how to go about making a whole 'user selectable' interface. But then that's what dark basic is for I guess.

( My dream is a steering wheel /pedal input. I'm seriously thinking of turning my old, dying joystick into one. Hack, saw, mangle, screw, glue! Maybe even a mini size wheel with seperate 'holddown under spring pressure' plates for your non-steering hand . wouldn't take up huge space then. Use the push buttons for functions.
Hey .... why can't we buy one like that? Needn't be a wheel I guess, could still be a stick, but with seperate SPRUNG , self centering, potentiometers.
I was presented with a PS2 logitech wheel some years ago and i could try the PC interface but it would be wasted on anyone else, whereas a joystick with forward for throttle and back for brakes might be useable by others..?? )

err .. where was i?
the basic physics code is public domain. anyone can get it and use it thanks to 'masked coder'
Mind you, i can't remember where I found it in the forum years ago.

here you are, the original dba file is >> car physics open source.dba
and the first rem line is "CAR PHYSICS OPEN SOURCE - THE MASKED CODER ( 2002 )"
I think there was a jeep model with that, so it may have been a download off forum.
I will search later after work, and if its not around I can put the orig. code on my web site, won't have room for the model. You'll need to change to your own. or make a cube and spheres for wheels.. Hmm sounds fun. might do that. . and then you can play about with the code like i did.


next..
the joystick is simply the default option setting, so I thought it a good idea to tell the user.. and what car was set..
I Left it like that because I never thought for moment that some keyboards would not function as mine does to access options. I will change default to one of the mouse settings somehow.

But I still wonder why dark coder is not getting acces to the options.
Your location is japan, dark coder? does a japanese keyboard have an obscure key asignment? seems unlikely... anyone know?????

Oh and yes, bit odd that i missed the unlimited reverse speed. I was sure i had a limit. It has now!, ready for the next upload.

Robin..
Laptops.. err ahh,, don't know laptops. How many have a plug in mouse? only half????
Does the touch pad appear in dark basic as a mouse input ? does anyone know?

Diggsey ..
thanks to your comment about the wobbling I picked up a rather stupid error in my 'fake suspension' code.
The liana IS pretty wobbly actually, I was amazed when i first paused a video on the last turn, how close the body went to the ground under full G force.

I used that angle as the max/limit of the suspension. but in later changes I had not set the spring tension back to the right value, and the liana , under even moderate G force was going right to the limit. whoops.
took more than twice the spring power to correct .. it still wobbles but perhaps more acurately..
Just as bad, the for/ aft springing was operating only half the original amount.
Augh. How did I miss that?? blind as well as thick! you get used to the code and don't see it properly I guess.

Matt .. I am really glad you say the mouse is okay. A standard WASD layout? In other progs I have used those keys. mostly because they were conveniently placed and I could think of A for accelerate and S for slow. ( its a simple mind here! ).
But that was for a sim where the controls weren't simultaneously needed, as one does when steering and braking /accelerating. For that reason I didn't try those keys this time.

And that was a cool idea about a leader board . . such an ego booster!! I would do that if i was confident of the times of this sims being constant.. so far I beginning to think the final exe. goes a bit faster than my testing.. I got a 1m 44 just before ..on standard.. maybe i am used to it, but thats bit quick.
may have to adjust things a fraction.

Curses, i am going to be late for my boring cleaning job. shall upload a slightly modified version in a few hours hopefully.

cheers . David L.
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dark coder
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 08:39
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Other than some special keys my keyboard layout is the same as any English one. If you are having issues with the amount of inputs you require why not use the mouse and keyboard? I think it would be pretty cool to steer with the mouse and have acceleration/deceleration on the keyboard, rocket launchers with left click etc

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 12:51
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hi again dark coder .
While I'm writing this a new version of the zip file is uploading to my site. BUT DON'T rush to get it because it will take at least half an hour with my pathetic connection.

The new version has the springs adjusted and .. it comes with a options.txt file with it. To go into the same directory.


You had better clear the directory of any other stuff first.

The program will read the new options on starting and you will have mouse for steering and it will be in mph ... very british like the tv program.

I set it on the self centering mouse option. I just noticed its ever so slightly over-sensitive/ jittery for some reason at times. Odd.
But I thought it was easier than the proportional mouse option. You should be able to get around the track anyway.


But i am really curious/ worried about this lack of key input in your computer. There could be others.
I have trusted DB classic for a long time now. It may not be the 'fastest with the mostest' but I always thought it worked on just about anything.

I'm going to take a break and tommorrow, might make a quick key reading program in db for you to see what the keys are doing.

Or can you do that yourself, being a DB programmer?

I used inkey$() a lot for the program, So just do a loop that prints something when you press different keys , checking with inkey$() in particular for 'O' would be interesting.

It just seems very unlikely that it won't work.
maybe the first download went freakily wrong for some reason?

back again
the program upload says 100%

good luck. David L.
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Van B
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 13:14
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I like it - the car has a nice feel to it too - but yeah, those controls could do with some adjusting, I was using the joystick to steer and the keyboard to accelerate!.

You should post this on some Top Gear fansites/forums, I'm sure there's people out there who would love to try this.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
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dark coder
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 16:41
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I got it working in the latest version . You should add a minimap or some sort of guidance as I didn't really know the layout of the track so was just going in circles. It's not a bad start though.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 22:50
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I'm extremely unfamiliar with the keyboard layouts in other countries. In the United States, with the QWERTY layout, W = forward, A = left, S = backward, and D = right, and they're extremely convenient for FPS and racing games. When I don't feel like rumbling my entire desk with my force feedback Saitek racing wheel, WASD does the trick quite well. Just something I figured was worth mentioning, hehe.


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Muddleglum
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 00:05
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Glad to here that dark coder. very glad.
er.. is the map on the web site not showing up?
I'll attach it here.

david L.

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 01:44
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Turoid..
my web page now has the car physics open source code as a .dba file.
have fun.

david l.
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Lazlazlaz 1
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 03:13
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hugely good fun that. Although it took me several attempts to work out the correct track, i kept missing the end of the first corner and going off down the runway into hammerhead, woops. But once I worked it out I got a 1.41 time, although I did "crash" straight through the tire wall.

As with most people I jump around which projects I work on and which I drop for a while.
Currently I'm back working on Sioux, a Hollywood Western RTS.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 04:20
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hmm .
this is making me think that i should put a map on screen.
not sure my computer will take it but .. an option maybe.

hey wait on.. it's an excuse to blow some money on a video card. oh yes!

hmmm.
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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 04:56 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 05:04
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ran a few passes and i think it's a solid start, muddleglum.

haven't tested with a joystick yet (and i have a wheel-stick paddle-thingy controller i'm anxious to dig up and try as well) so re: mouse controls, i prefer (and can see a short learning curve using) the proportional mouse with cursor visible options. also, consider adding keyboard (only) controls?

re: the physics, seems more "arcade" vs "simulator" to me. if sim is what you're after i'd consider tweaking the friction on the rear wheels (there should be some more sliding at higher speeds). also, the turning radius seemed too "wide"/should be able to make tighter turns. if you're graduating them based on speed in the steering mechanics (for playability), the slower speeds should provide a tighter turning radius. i spun out a few times leaving me facing the wrong way; when trying to right my position, my u-turn was a bit wider than it should have been based on the car type (compact?), in my opinion. i don't know if that car could make a u-turn on a city street without climbing the curb/using the sidewalk, for example. or, you'd have to make a 3 point turn, etc.
also, seemed like suspension was very tight. atleast in the replays, there wasn't enough lean.

also, the route isn't quite obvious enough. an in-game mini-map or street signs with arrows directing the driver would help a lot! i know you provided a map of the route, but it's hard to see when the turns are approaching with the driving perspective you're using. i (somehow) completed a lap once, but don't know how i did it. heh.

the options interface needs a little work, too. i found that you had to hit R and then O while stopped to get into the options (lots of games allow you to enter options screens at any time so this was a bit confusing). from there, everything seemed to work (i was able to change set-ups) but there was no confirmation of the current set-up until you hit R again and began the "race". if you could highlight current choices within the options menu, it would help a lot vs the user/player wondering if the controls were set.

re: the replay feature and options, i loved them! only suggestion would be to change to next camera a litle sooner (in the pan modes, the car seemed a LITTLE too far away before it switched to the next location). also, i wasn't able to save a replay. it made a "reply" file in the directory, but it was "empty". i don't know if you have this fully implemented in the current version, so...

overall, a great start! i look forward to this being fine-tuned toward master-piece status. speaking of which, your paintings are very nice, as are melody's miniatures! i can see you're very much into detail in whatever you create, so, no doubt, this sim will definitely become "art" as well!

edit: also, wanted to mention TORCS, if you're not already familiar with it. it's an open source "racing simulator" that i had looked into some time ago. you may find some useful info there regarding the application of "driving physics" for games.
http://torcs.sourceforge.net/

Virtual Nomad
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 13:02 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 18:16
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Pretty darn good. The engine sounds a little weird. You might be able to find something that sounds less like a bulldozer in some of the Racer addon cars.

Try this. You'll need permission from the creator of the car addon. It sounds appropiate.
http://www.racer-xtreme.com/cars.php?ck=192


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 31st Oct 2007 02:08
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NeX ... the FFF ( like that name ) ... and thanks for the sound link.
may be some delay before i get around to that. ( like acces to the broadband at work!)
I've thought of another sound source as well though it takes luck to get your own one right, the tone must be absolutely even, and the loop joins inaudible.

Seems to be a huge interest in car sims out there i must say. And pretty amazing 'free' or open source work.
But you lose freedom to get the appearance the way you want .. the built in limits can't be changed.
And some require for example, max 3d (at a zillion dollars ) to make your own track. thats just another world to me..

Found a good summary of the tyre grip theory while checking your link.
My urge is to invent a simple two line algorithmn that does it in new way instead. hah.


Virtual Nomad .. thanks .. good suggestions and link.
And just what i need on the driving 'character" . Have to think about those. Bearing in mind that space and speed is limited for me.
( ergh! you looked at the rest of the site. One puts stuff out there never knowing if anyone looks at it. )

Some reaction..

showing selected options . why didn't I think of that? Will add , unless problems .

The basic layout is like a Gran turismo game. A start screen on which you select things, .. then go to drive or go to replay..
You have to exit driving to do anything else. Seemed a good idea at the time. Probably a G T user would approve .
I could make the screens different to be clearer whats happening.
In my own justification .. , this 'thing' just grew. It wasn't designed . Then it had to be reshaped to go public with replays etc.
You probably have some idea of the hassle /pain of trying to get a program working properly again once you have hacked into it..

Lost on track ?
Yes, there are arrow signs beside the real track corners. I left them out because of doubts about my own computer power running out, and download size growing..
Shall see how much more I can put in. I thought everyone either knew the track from TV, or would just slowly go around till they learned it.
I could add one ' easy drive around the track' replay,.. A user could be advised to first follow the replay around the track. That might be the best way to go.

Or have the replay running at the start??? in a small screen?? Nice idea, but not to do immediately .. there will be complications for sure.


Softer suspension ? errr .. shall double check with the old video recordings bits I have. I recently saw a re-run of the episode where the liana lost its wheel and I was pleased with the similar angle at the time. Hmm .. I bet some people would like it, if after a time of use, I randomly had a front wheel rip off at a hard corner!

Tricky business deciding on tyre grip. The present car actually slides a great deal .. when at high speed after the follow thru corner it is in a sideways 'skate' for some time. I didn't know cars did this sort of thing until I read the physics material. I increased the grip at one stage to make steering more positive and because the rear end was skidding out everywhere.. If anything I am tempted to increase grip further, ( which would reduce the turn radius.) but with a increase also in the velocity change effects.
Can alter radius seperately though. It isn't actually modified to be less with speed, ( though I originally tried that, and it works for playability as you say) its a result of the 'slipangle' from speed on the front wheels.

I have puzzled over the steering myself. The feel of that is the real test of any sim. It would be great to get it absolutely right, but I'm not even sure its possible on a computer .. at least, for me. ( And you do need the right controller, I think, with at least some force back to center. )
I have caused consternation when driving a real car by swerving to get reactions at different speeds. You can get hardly any visual movement but you FEEL a quite strong lurch. Deceptive I think.
I know the physics here are basically correct, but the final ground interaction used by the best sims is very sophisticated in comparison.
But also confusing. As a user of several of the top PS2 sims and a couple of PC trials, I am surprised by the difference. And you get forums where drivers of real racing vehicles claim this or that is the best or most accurate just like the real one etc.. but they can't all be right.. there's obviously subjectivity in the matter.
perhaps it also depends on the car you are used to?

Perhaps what is most missing from this sim is the ground interaction. bumps, judders, camber , and the little shifts that result. ., It is a dead level glide the way it is.
and it's probably not going to change ( i tried a random bumping effect but ... aahh .. no.)

So, in the meantime, I will change the things I can, but the driving feel and physics, is going to be a long haul. I can only work on it ..... quiiiiiite ...... sloooooooowly .

BTW anyone reading this stuff, I have now discovered for sure, that in all the versions I have of DB classic, the screen fps, when using XP anyway on my computer, goes in steps and doesn't strictly follow the set frame rate. Perhaps because of XP system overhead .. or priority with system timer? . Perhaps ... who knows ... but it seems very likely that faster computers are going to get around the track in very good time.
Like lazlazlaz I guess. try the double power liana. laz.

time for a break here . Do somethng else.

cheers all , l David L.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 05:48 Edited at: 1st Nov 2007 05:52
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Sorry for that lengthy outburst above.

Just a note to say there is new download version.

It has a slow demo run so a new user can check out the track from a drivers point of view.

As suggested by Virtual Nomad, the selected options are highlighted. So much more sensible for little effort. Thanks for that.

Also thanks to him for noting the lack of turning radius.
While correcting I tried reinstating the trick of reducing the response as speed increases. I am going to keep it .
I think it improves the mouse control noticeably.

the softeness of springs thing.
It turns out that the mamximum roll angle , as far as i can measure it, is about half a degree more than the real liana. General softness seem about right, but might chnage for exaggerated effect later.
(I was surpised to notice that the replacement chevrolet leciti - is that spelt right? -- seems to bounce about a little more than the liana. As if softer, but well damped.)

Anything more, I'll wait until I have thought through the physics again.


cheers .. david L.
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Butter fingers
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 19:15
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Checked it out and had some fun, I'm not going to re-iterate what's already been said, a minimap would be great etc.

I don't know what your uncapped framerate is, and if you can squeeze it out of the CPU, but I think some shaders could do this a world of good. Specular on the car, and maybe a little bloom?

The sim plays very nicely, but I didn't really dig the graphics! I don't neccessarily think you need to re-texture anything, just get some shaders in there so that it looks more polished.

Only other crit, is... is there any chance that you can change view in race mode? People have said that you need a minimap to orientate your self better the the route, but perhaps it would be simpler if you had an outside view? It would definately give you a better perception of the space you are in, plus you'd be able to see the nice suspension physics while you're actually racing.

Anyway, I literally downloaded this after watching an episode, and it defiantely did it for me. I had like 10 goes around the track (rubbish times).

Oh, and to clarify the thing about TopGear's popularity, it's not the most popular show in the world, but it is the most Pirated show of all time!

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 19:22
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I could make a higher res ground texture for you if you want. I'd need the original, though, to ensure that it all matches up.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Butter fingers
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 20:29
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Quote: "I could make a higher res ground texture for you if you want"

Dag it! I was sat here trying to remember the other crit I had, and that was it!

I have a mod of the vertex shader that does a really nice grass effect if you want that too!

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2007 03:07
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hey guys .. this is DB classic! .. nor would my computer take much more. Hmm nor my web site.

Someone else is going to have to do this properly ... ( Like polyphony on the PS 3 !? )

I have the image for higher res ground, though it would take some fiddling to scale/fit. And I would love the corners to be equally high res.
And even better would be a natural impression of grass .. at least near the track.
Personally i would love to lower the light source and have shadows cast everywhere, and so on. and redo the whole thing!! and make a decent car model .. different cars .. . etc..


okay i'm dreaming. It's been a long haul for someone like me just to get this far.
I may try a few more things . but it may be some time before I'm ready to really bite the bullet again.

But those are decent offers .. sorry I can't do them justice..

cheers David L.
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Roxas
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2007 21:23 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2007 21:26
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btw i tried the car physics .dba thingy..

But it give me really ODD results.. When i keep pressing a button the car started to fly and the app was slow like hell and car rotated weirdly.. Could it be cuz im using dbpro?

And btw.. Quoted from your site
Quote: "But my local track may never happen, and will probably require the use of blitz basic rather than dark basic."


What that suppose to mean? I found dbpro lot better than blitz..

E:
Sorry i just remembered you used classic

You should try Dark Basic Professional

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 09:08
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HI Roxas ..sorry .. i should have put beside the link that it might need reworking for db pro.

In any case, i found on my back up drive, one of the first ever demos for db pro and when i tried it on this computer it allowed me another 30 days.

If you haven't discovered this already, one of the problems is that after randomizing a matrix, you must 'update matrix' with pro.. it is automatic with classic.
I've change the code on the site.
what was probably happening was that the 'car' was driving up the invisible matrix. still apparently recognising the co-ords even though not renderd.

On this old pro version the camera was out as well. being 180 degrees out of true and it wasn't pointing at the car object either in dropped camera mode.
i would imagine that is now fixed on later versions? if not, you know where to look in the code to change it.

Blitz instead of Pro? Pro is more advanced graphically and faster on a test. I am so impressed with the look of the cube mapping demo.
But pro has a very large size exe and is pretty slow compiling.
Not good for a 'check it over and over with small changes' programmer like myself.
Or good with limited internet space and speed.
Pity, as I felt really attached to DB and wanted to move up to pro.

But someone bought me blitz for a gift ..and its bug free and I really want a fogging trick that it can do and pro can't .. and well .....
Maybe classic still has some life in it for me. Especially if one can get .x object collision working quickly .

cheers david L.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 12:25
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There. Fogging done.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 23:18
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errr um .. NeX was that for me? for Pro?

the trick blitz can do is have a fog with negative value start point. you can be IN a fog all the time. ( unless pro can do it now? it would be easy to add, I imagine, if they wanted )

If it is set so as to be a thick, consistent fog, it can be a neat effect in itself. Also tried making it fluctuate like wind blowing a fog about.
didn't work so well. but maybe with alpha blending?.

Otherwise, for games attempting natural appearance anyway, I think the near softening by fog is a great help.
In real life, the atmosphere is often full of dust and whatever, the near fading of colour intensity is quite marked.

or something ..

BTW I just spent a few hours trying the bits of code i downloaded from the forum , years ago.
some good stuff out there. makes you realize that there's room for just about every style of coding.

made me think how unfinished my own can be.

Wonder what jobs, / work the talent has ended up in.


david l.
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Turoid
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 00:58
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Quote: "Turoid..
my web page now has the car physics open source code as a .dba file.
have fun. "


Sorry for me noticing a bit lately, but thanks a lot man! I found it, going to try it out right now

I am awesome and always right.
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Roxas
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 02:26
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just settin fog distance closer and you are in fog

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 11:14 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 12:04
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sure Roxas. Good enough for most stuff.

I just couldn't get the same even, very light fog over long distance with DB ... its because blitz has a start distance as well as a full strength distance ... sooo. okay.. just a thing I tried and liked .
not enough to swing a decision by itself ... but its there

david l.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 11:21 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 11:25
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whoops duplicate .. sorry . can't see how to delete
david l.
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Roxas
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 12:37
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Hmm very true.. But i have seen fog like that in some projects i just dont remember

I may be wrong too..

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Posted: 5th Nov 2007 03:31
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For anyone who wanted a mini map, its now an option to show .

Have used a pasted image rather than a ghosted plain ... Because it turned out to be easiest to run a replay in a new small prog. read the car co-ords, divide them to the right scale , and use them to draw continuous circles along the path. save image . done.

then use same division to place car 'blob' in use.

well .. a bit of painful fiddling to get it not too obvious , not to hard to read.

hope its okay . guess i will hear soon enough.

david L.
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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 00:07
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@muddleglum,

thanks for the timely tweaks. minimap is very helpful, as are the other additions (highlighted options, etc).

also, i've grabbed the physics source dba and look forward to picking through it some day.

good stuff, muddleglum thanks.

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El Goorf
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 10:50 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 10:52
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1 min 22, I AM THE STIG!!

well made physics, but i think the track would do with more detail, the track surface could be a higher resolution, its a bit blurred for my liking..

http://notmybase.com
All my base are not belong to anyone.
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 10:52
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El goorf .. 1.22! you sure are the stig!

anyway there is yet another modifed version of the program uploaded. ( and i thought i was finished with this a few weeks ago ...)

I gave in to those wanting a keyboard only option, but it meant changing a few control keys. Using scancode() to read the keys allowed me to get some accelerator that wasn't overidden by the other arrow keys etc.
the result is probably to no one's liking, but it is keyboard only.

Also there is an option to use an auto limiting frame speed in attempt to get standard times between computers.

The suspension effect has been modified . there's a note on the web page.

So thanks everyone who has commented. It really does make a difference to have an outside view.

I seem to have about 5-10 fps left in my system so it may ( MAY) be possible to do something about detail, grass etc. but it may be some time. The only decent grass i have seen is pretty graphic intensive.
Just higher res textures would have to be rather large indeed.
It may be possible to do some object selecting for hiding, and just show grass and objects in close view . a major experimenting and rewrite in fact.. I'm not sure its worth it with the playstation version on the way.

Upload complete.

cheers. david L.
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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 00:40
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beautiful!

thanks for adding keyboard-only input (specifically the "smoothed" option), mg. it allowed me to crack the 2 minute mark (1:45 is my current best. i've attached the replay file *** ).

so... IF you do continue tweaking this already great little sim, here's a couple items from my wish list:

1) tail lights - when games first started having replay options, the first time i saw working brake lights i was immediately impressed. what that feature does, for me, is add to the submersion/feel that you're in the car, experiencing the vehicle and track. i don't know how you have the model set up... if brake lights are/can be limbs, i can see adding the feature simple enough... otherwise, "decals" could do the trick.

2) replay info - when i watch a replay, i'd like to know the vehicle set-up. atleast the version of the car i'm watching. again, i don't know how you've gone about implementing the replay feature, but another byte or 2 shouldn't be difficult (?)

i noticed from my last few runs that i'm "learning" the track. what speeds to take curves at, how to use the landmarks, etc, so i'm looking forward to playing it more.

another fine update, muddleglum. thanks again!

*** - i just checked into loading replays (not made on my computer and therefor not logged by the program) before i added it to this post (made a copy of my run and renamed it) and it doesn't show up as load-able. i'm not sure how you've formatted the "replays.txt" file so would altering the replays text-file by adding other replays to the queue cause it to be corrupt? otherwise, an import replays option?

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 01:09
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tail lights .. could do.. easiest to locate a seperate object there and change colour with brake on. or add limb.

Should be no problem with cartype on replay. hmm. could have it beside title as well .

It might have to be seperate 'import' for replays .. because I cheated and wrote the list on saving etc, rather than write a file search /test routine.
Wondered if it might 'come back to bite me'.. as they say.

shall see what happens after weekend.
other things to do.

david L.
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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 02:19 Edited at: 9th Nov 2007 02:20
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please consider this as fan art



Virtual Nomad
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