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3 Dimensional Chat / Amazing looking levels! Reflections! Shadows! Lighting! Interactive scenery!

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Redmotion
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 16:46 Edited at: 29th Jun 2003 17:13
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(edited 29th June2003) - This BSP:

http://www.btinternet.com/~redmotion/3rdperson/3rdperson.zip (800k approx)
It uses bsp collision but it's very temperamental! If anyone has got a better way to detect collisions (and move a rolling sphere around the environment - aka MonkeyBall/Metroid Prime) feel free to tamper with the code and repost it!
I'm finding it a little limiting, I don't want to follow what has gone before...

(Original post)
I would like to have:

Lightmapping
Lightmapping shadow that fades under light
Metallic and glass effects
Transparent elements
Interactive Scenery
Destructable Scenery

What other features would you like to see in level design?

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It is too late now..BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PLAYING ATTENTION.
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CrayZemon
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 17:24
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Uh, how about good data BSP filtering so that the level only draws what you see. Ram effecient, and nice for all PCs.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 17:57
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Ok.

I thought that was the whole point of BSPs already, or is DBPro a bit inefficient when dealing with BSP maps?

Any other ATMOSPHERIC/GAMEPLAY features?

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APEXnow
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 22:21
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Scripting feature for playing out mid scene movies etc. Like you see in RTCW. That's a cool feature of any game engine.

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Arrow
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 03:16
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Don't sacrifice gameplay for graphic, if you can add all the detail you want without effecting gameplay, go for it. I've seen way too many games that forget about gameplay and focus solely on eye candy.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 12:14 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 12:15
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No, the whole point of these details I've listed at the start are utterly essential to the GAMEPLAY! Destructable and interactive scenery being the major one. Even the lightmapping should effect it. This isn't going to be a find the key to the right door boring concept. My intention is to imitate real life completely down to the level of say: knives and forks in drawers.

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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 12:25 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 12:27
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It's funny that you mention something along those lines, I've never ever played an RPG or sim game where you actually need to go to the bathroom for that special paper reading moment In game that is...

EDIT: Whether that has a destructive effect on the carsey is a matter of gameplay, but it would be rather funny to see LOL

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Redmotion
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 12:35 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 12:37
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Yeah, remember the toilets that flush in Half Life? I just wanted to use them once for the hell of it! You know- human civilisation is close to destruction and you still can find time to have a dump!

All those cans of cola have to go somewhere!

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APEXnow
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 12:43
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ROFL, alien baddies get their b-hind kicked where as we get to use ours. Anyway, detracting from the subject matter here LOL

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Redmotion
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 13:29
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LOL

Ok, back to the GAMEPLAY. This is something that I've had stewing in my brain (not the toilet bowl!) since the beginning of the year(and since I wrote a text adventure in STOS about 10 years ago). The idea that there can be 50 ways to solve the same problem and not one. Next gen gameplay is about freedom of movement and action, not a linear story/level moved along by boring puzzles. Find the key-open the door, find the note-talk to the owner, etc. The thing that excites me about HLife2 is that the story is flexible and will change according to player and NPC actions, how much though, I don't know. Deux Ex did the same. My own concept revolves around the player trying to react and interact with a lifelike world.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 13:44 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 13:48
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The whole point of this medium is that it can react and alter itself as we play. We will create the stories ourselves through our play NOT play someone elses story. It is that reason why Everquest was so popular. People generated the stories. We should watch movies or read a book instead if all we want to do is experience a FIXED story.

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Nilrem
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 17:12
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Jasonio do you have a picket that says 'MUDs forever'?

I don't think you'll get what you're after, not wholly anyway, only on a MUD have I seen/read/imagined such things.

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
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Redmotion
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 17:40
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See:
http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?Multi-User+Dungeon
For the definition of MUD! (Multi-user dungeon)

The concept I'm describing is single-player, story based game. Where you can interact with objects and use them with other objects and the surrounding environment. Clues are placed to draw you into a story but you are still free to roam as you like in areas you have accessed.

The fork for example: you can eat a meal with it, but you can just as easily eat the meal without it. You can also use the fork to pick old doorlocks. Once the door is unlocked, say, you can throw the fork into the passage to lure the guard, and then attack him from behind the door. Drag the body into a hidden place (in the lightmapped shadows) so noone notices (There is another guard nearby), and escape out of the corridor with the keys on his belt.

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Arrow
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 00:57
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What I was talking about is when some game company desided to remove a whole level just so they can add 1000 polys to the main character model and give the all object bump mapping. Lets take your fork example, what you discribed you doing with it, eating picking up stuff, that's all gameplay. I don't care if it casts a perfect reflection, just as long as I get to play with it. I'ld glady give up Xbox quality graphics for N64 quality if the gameplay was a good 20 hrs more.

In any case, have you ever played Shenmue? That was a good step towards having a completely free enviroment, you could look in drawers, talk to random people on the street (they'ld just blow you off though), it had real potental.

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Nilrem
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 03:01
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Yes, but MUD's aren't just that! Grr! Hehe.
I take it you've never played one, they're more immersive then any game (with graphics and sound) I've played.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 12:49
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Arrow - I had Shenmue and played it a lot, but although it portrays a free environment the story is actually quite fixed, you just choose when you want to pursue it. You can't say join the enemy instead of fighting them. Then use that to get really close to the leader so you can kill them. You're right though it had real potential. One of the VERY FEW good 3rd person "realistic" games. Grand Theft Auto Vice City gives you that freedom of choice, but still, the "story line" is basically fixed.

Nilrem - I played one once - I met this group of players and they were in the middle of a transaction. Someone dropped their stuff so the other could pick it up, except, I picked it up! They then chased through 10-15 locations until I realised I couldn't shake them! And gave it all back! It was quite funny! After that I just wandered about and got bored. But the game is in your imagination because it is just text.

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Soyuz
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 14:03
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I suspect HL2 will still be pretty much fixed levels consisting of areas linked by puzzles. I don't believe these big companies have an ounce of originality in their bodies. They probably scrap the good ideas to make time for stuff like "Hey let's give our player characters 83 facial muscles". I hope I'm wrong and HL2 is a great laugh but I've yet to play a single player FPS game through to the end - kind of get bored of the same "OOo! A nasty alien cweature jumped out on me AGAIN!"
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Redmotion
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 14:24
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EDGE magazine (being the only magazine worth reading about games ) is very positive about HL2. They do think it is going to be different from the rest. It had jaded people going "woooowww..."
at E3. They also had NO pressure from marketing or publishing corps because the project was developed using the money from the Half Life 1
series. No doubt people will pick holes in it when it comes out but lets face reality, NO bedrooms coders will EVER come close to it, technologically, visually or gameplaywise.

We can but try though!

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Soyuz
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 19:28
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Well Jasonio when I saw the E3 movie I went Woooooww - but now in retrospect I look at it and I say to myself - ok sure the graphics are amazing, the features look nice. But when it came to demonstrating the gameplay I have to say my reaction was luke warm. Guess what? It had aliens jumping out on you and you had to kill them in an endless - "ohh look more nasty aliens - how scary" kind of way.

I don't wanna knock the game too much until I've played it. Maybe I'm dampening down my enthusiasm so that if it is a great original game then I'll be all the more excited. At the same time a lot of people want a game where they just shoot endless bugs and don't have to use their brains. ah well can only wait and see.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 20:45
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Soyuz that was kinda my reaction too ... the Ai is about the same in HL2 as Doom3 - and you'd expect that kinda stuff from id as its they're trademark, "Shoot Now, ask questions if it ain't dead ... oh hell kill it anyway."

i always say HL as more of the thinking mans Quake, as you have to think more about the levels and such.
also think the way the PCGUK have described thier reaction to HL2, it certainly won't be high on my todo list

oh well atleast i have my own title to console me

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Redmotion
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 00:16
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Well, a number of rags reckon it was game of the show. It being the biggest show in the world. There were 4000+ games and titles and gadgets. And none of them, apparently, better than HL2 (even Metal Gear Solid3 - which I have to say looks like it could be the final great game on the PS2), maybe some people are never pleased...

Half Life was popular because it turned out gameplay wise between mindless blasting and a little brain taxing, and the setting had univeral appeal (and the graphics/sound/level design were exquisite). Half Life 2 is still the franchise, people buy something called Halflife because they know what they are getting. Of course, it's not going to be "original". Nothing is.

Graphics/sound are essential to gameplay these days. Most games aren't falling bricks rotating anymore, they are EXPERIENCES. They need to be coherent and moving. Doom would NEVER have been so successful without that alternate dimension/"diabolical - in hell" atmosphere. Doom was perfect.

Oh well, Raven, I guess I might have to wait for you game then! Get a move on, ah!

(...unless of course, I finish mine first! )

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 00:55
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you will probably finish first ... i have a good 8-9months to go development wise.

however a demo is due within the next 3months, and you'll be seeing alot of information starting to flood in about it.
Design - Background - Characters - Etc...

i'm not knocking the HL Graphics they are nice, not as good as can be achieved (i think how little Avid & nVidia had to say about it might've been a good indication of things to come) - but they've sacified it all for shortcuts rather than developing and evolving the title all round.
With more defined levels what did they do? they made it more of an all out war game than a using this new depth in thier world to thier advantage.

but as i said, personally i'm having more fun in my own title - driving 120mhz in a Police Crusier into the backend of a Merc S600 into a brick wall and watching both cars turn into little clumps of metal... or shooting through an aluminum wall and watching the light burst in as the holes appear then hearing someone scream in pain cause you just shot them in the leg and watching them hobble to somewhere safe leaving a trail of blood and swearing almost every step (though as its my voice in the game right now i'm not sure i should be having as much fun making them scream and cry out in pain hehee)

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Soyuz
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 01:13
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If HL2 can recreate the diversity that Deus Ex offered then it will certainly appeal to me. If it just becomes the same old linear BS then I suspect I'll not finish it just like HL1, even if the graphics are breath taking. I agree great graphics adds to the experience but lets face it, if a game consisted purely of looking at nice pretty scenery with no interaction you'd be picking dead skin from between your toes before you know it!

I have no doubt HL2 will be a major hit whatever - there are enough dumb arses out their who wouldn't know a good thing if she smothered her perfect girating naked body in their face, so just cos a load of goons at E3 "watching a demo" think it's bees knees that doesn't mean it will be ultimatly turn out so. You'd be unable to count the number of titles that have looked great in a demo and ultimatly played like sheiser.

I certainly hope I'm wrong
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Soyuz
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 01:18
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Maybe it's just me. I really enjoy playing strategy games like Civilization. Games that offer an unlimited flexibility to the direction of the game. So maybe when it comes to FPS games I expect something of the same thing. I guess the guys that don't like strategy games and enjoy shooting wave after wave of weird looking alien beasts will have a field day with HL2 and I guess ultimatly ID would want to cater for those guys more than those of my own calibre.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 01:24
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Soyuz you've never played Splinter Cell have ya

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Redmotion
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 15:50
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So how do you get them walk somewhere safe? I'd probably cheat and use a technique that reduces an area to 2d and works out (similarly like the -vis bit on q3map.exe) to work out positions of safety (eg: hidden) and vulnerable - then get the NPC to path-find it's way there. But how do you make that look convincing? Considering that if you shoot one chararcter who behaves realistically, the next one you shoot has to behave completely differently, otherwise the ILLUSION breaks. So you'll nead both death and injury animations and reactions to suit each one. Like when the NPCs bullets run out, or when it realises it's cornered, does it surrender immediately or suicidely blast until it has one bullet left and then take it's own life? You;re talking about coding personalities! 'Corse it'll run great on my machine!!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:36
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NPC's you probably can't get to realistically move... thier coding prevents it because they're just prescripted characters not Ai characters

i've learn alot over the past 2years from my friend Julian & coding Space Hulks Ai ... the real advantage with having the GPU take up almost the entire graphical slack actually means for stuff like Ai i also have ALOT more power to play with.

funny you should say personalities though, because although i have cheated a little and used an sort of RPG style system for them - so you have a flag for an ability followed by 0-100% which is randomly determined within the species used ... for example a dog will have random 50-75% hearing, whereas a human will have 20-40% hearing, and machines will have 70-100%.

this applies also to muscles, so people can be strong, quick, etc... also in the random sense and thanks to Karma + my model format it means that each major muscle is assigned, so a stronger person might have the same mesh but his muscles will look bigger because they're defined when the model is loaded and the weighting is automatically calculated to compensate. (fat people's fat will jiggle as they run, which is hypnotically entertaining through a sniper scope)

basically that personality for the Ai to run from will essentially be a reference which whenever an action decision is needed it'll lookup the nessiary states and construct some script which it'll then run to determine the action it takes. Although the actual action itself is randomly determined from possibilities those possibilities are scripted by the engine

if you shoot someone in the leg, they might stop to check the damage done, they might stay put because they think it is too bad, they might scurry to the nearest hiding place they think is safe, they might know where the shot came from and hide behind something they think is safe to - or try to get to somewhere they know they will be safe, they might shoot back.

what will happen even just the possibilities of what they might do i can't tell you because no doubt the engine will script something that not even i would've though of ... i mean try predicting a scientist throwing items just laying around him towards me as i'm walking into a room that i though i'd killed him.
Or a Police dog which runs upto you, so your running frantically just to find out he wanted to pee on your leg.

All of the animations in it have been pain stakingly crafted by hand as i don't have a motion capture studio - and the engines IK allows them to really come to life interacting with the entire scenary.
If someones shot, then i animated several crawl animations - which one he uses is upto him, but the actual limb itself which is shot and is almost incapable of moving (depending on damage might move slightly, might not move at all) but it interacts more with the dynamics to drag behind quite real. The heavier the person is, the longer the animation is stretched out as with little muscle spasms thrown in randomly (which weren't animated they're just little random movements which can happen on the limbs within a fairly real setting of 0.1-3.0cm) and it is literally a spasm jump that is then interpoled to the next keyframe, so it blends seemlessly.

obviously if there were like 30-40 people onscreen at once this system would die even on the best systems, but as each area you play in generally only has a total of 100 people and you then add to that your likely to only see upto 5 in a room at once (if that)

the Ai setup is done to try to eleviate as much as possible, so the probabilities are only calculated when a decision needs to be made ... and alot of the decisions are random based. The possibilities are calculated from the probable actions that could be taken - and there is a flag which allows them to do something out of character.

everything that happens to them is stored in thier personality, so old possibilty script and such ... even scars, injuries, etc...
everything is stored so that next time something happens they can make a decision also based on experience.

it isn't quite as good as it sounds on paper, there are problems - but is some of the most advanced Ai to be seen in a game to date simply because i've taken a completely different route to traditional development

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Redmotion
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 17:33
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This sounds mightily interesting! - I think most studios except fo example: Lionhead (Fable/BC/etc) and Elixir(Republic:Revolution) are pretty much stuck in their money grabbing ways. It seems that this random element to the AI gives the games it's "story", rather than scripted dialogue (which is usually written by people who wish they could script movies - rather than true gamers!).

I like the idea that the sequences of animation are scripted but because the sequences are triggered by "decisions" they seem to generate a life of their own. If an NPC (non-player character- I assumed from this abbreviation that any game character not controlled by a human was an NPC - AI characters,et al.) has to lead the player into the next part of the story then their actions would need to be a lot more tightly scripted wouldn't they? But maybe, along with random placement of the enemies, the game would appear to play differently everytime. In a way we are getting back to the very essense of gaming (like random attacks in galaxians, random bricks in Tetris) where games provide Gameplay that is identical everytime but structured completely differently. Death to the WALKTHROUGH!!! The only problems I can see with randomising the structure is that there is no BALANCE to the play.

Play Timesplitters2 or Goldeneye and although the game is identical every time and it is your human element, your flaws as a player that acts with the AI to make a different game everytime you play. The structuring is brilliant. Powerups are placed far enough apart to present the challenge of staying alive and using your wits - your skill. Too many random reactions might create consequences that players think are UNFAIR (the biggest game design sin) or too easy. Like a whole sequence of difficult NPCs (randomly generated) followed by the boss (who kills you without a chance), making the game impossible to complete, but then the next time you play it, it's a doddle.

What I'm trying to say is, that my design will have a very tight structure (level wise - (I use the word "level" to describe the environment not the game's structure - it wont be a "now go to level 3!!" type game - but it'll have to be broken down into sections.))
But it's the countless ways of dealing with each obstacle or NPC that will give it it's "life".

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Shadow Robert
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yeah personally perfectly linear games are starting to get right on my tits ... everytime you play you don't have to be good, just do a section enough times and you can get through.

although my game is gonna be mostly eye-candy i've a strick policy to make my games as playable as possible ... and with the animations & controls setup in the way they have been it gives you pretty extensive possibilities there too. Like if you jumped off a catwalk, if you kept ahold of action you'd not let go when you vaulted it and if you pressed left/right when you were in mid air you'd turn to be holding onto the catwalk to be able to pull yourself back up, or grab your weapon and shoot someone.

takes a bit of getting used to, but it enables some awesome things like sliding across car bonnets (not just a scripted but a REAL move you pull off) and then continue to run on or duck down

i like true exploration style levels like GTA, i mean although the missions are still structured ... its all done in a way to give the gamer total freedom. As well as the mini-missions that have nothing to do with the story, i find it pretty cool to be able to roam like that. I sorta liked HL for the same reason cause you could go forward & back throughout the levels - but there was never anything you'd missed or secret really. It was still a pointA->pointB game.

I certainly look forward to seeing your game now though, nice to see someone actually taking a more thoughtful approach to improve a genre rather than just making the next Quake and thinking its the dogs naggers

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
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Redmotion
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 17:19
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Ok I've just updated my original post - I wanna talk BSP! I've been messing with BSP/collision & 3rd person views and a rolling ball character aka - marble madness/super monkey ball. But its playing rather badly... If anyone wants to improve the collision/movement for the ball and camera (I'm no great programmer!) feel free - if it manifests itself into a full game you'll be included in the credits. Cheers guys/gals.

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Redmotion
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How can you make it so a character moving around a BSP knows when it is in shadow and when not? You'll notice in the demo that the ball shudders or drops through the steps. Do I need to use the SET BSP COLLISION THRESHOLD? And how might I stop it getting stuck to the wall? I know this is because the position of the object keeps shifting but the BSP collision stops it moving. I've sorted of the cameras response to this, but I'm a bit stumped on the rest at the moment...

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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 22:03
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Jasonio, After seeing your updated posting above, I'd thought it would be an idea to post some suggestions for your collision issue.

I've played around with the collision on BSP maps under DBPro, and have come to the conclusion that it will never work in it's current evolution. The BSP collision system under DBPro has yet to be sorted out, but this is an issue I understand will be fixed in Product Upgrade v5.

Instead of using BSP, I suggest that you create your map files using two .X files. One file contains your base textures for the surface geometry, and the other contains the UV lightmapped textures. If you load both models simultaniously, and ghost the Lightmapped model using ghost value flag (1), this will achieve the exact same result as loading a BSP file. There is somewhere on www.realgametools.com forum, a posting that contains code using the INTERSECT OBJECT command that can be used for sliding collision of objects against an .X map model. This approach is significantly better than the approach used by the BSP collision system in DBPro at the moment. I'm currently working on this approach at the moment and it looks promising.

Until the BSP issue with collision is sorted out, I'm not going to use it, but the two .X model approach appears to work well when using the INTERSECT OBJECT method.

The only obvious disadvantage to using the two .X model approach, is the lack of map drawing efficiency obtained when using BSP files.

Hope this idea helps

APEX!

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Redmotion
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 23:20 Edited at: 30th Jun 2003 00:12
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Cheers Apex - I was thinking of using .x files to achieve what I described above (in my original post), creating seperate parts for metallic elements, lit, dark, interactive/destructable sections.

But I cannot get the UV maps to work. I have tried baked textures but they never come in 100%. What program and .X exporter/convertor do you use? I'm downloading the DX8 SDK because Raven mentioned there was a microsoft convertor/exporter...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 02:42
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well it could work with BSP, but you'd need your own reader as well for the format - something which you can access the lightmap data & the collision data (as both are stored in the actual format)

however my dealings with BSP leave me with a headache so i don't know where exactly to give you direction to start

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
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Arrow
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 08:01
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Just becuase I was gone this weekend, I'm gonna rewind time a little bit back to the randomization of games. I love the idea of random enemy placement, it makes the game more challanging and adds replay value. On a second note, I'll like to point out Random level creation. So far I've seen only 3 games that have really used this sucessfully: Dark Cloud 1 & 2 and Parasite Eve (the Chrysler Building). There are 2 problems with it, one it can get very fusterating, and the levels can't get that detailed. I personally don't recomend randomization of levels (Dark Cloud 1 is reason enough), but I do like the idea of radom enemy placement.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 13:36 Edited at: 30th Jun 2003 16:07
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Randomization should be limited. Such as an enemy in a room appears in a different position everytime - or sometimes there are two. This gives an element of surprise (say furniture can have 1 of 10 different arrangements). NPCs could take you by surprise one time (jumping out from behind a cabinet) or they could be obliviously chatting away and you take them both out before they realise what hit them!

On Levels: I wrote a cliched dungeon based game on the ST about 10 years ago (and the PD company I sent it too decided to publish it! I made about £40! - not bad for two years work ) It had randomized creatures and levels. It was basically structured the same every time and I had warp gates/tunnels/warp spells to bridge gaps that occured. It's not fun to play randomized levels (after repeated play), because levels have to have varied structure. But elements within the levels can have a random element...

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 13:08
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Ok, I probably shouldn't be posting this, but what the hell.

I work in the games industry. I'm a professional level designer. They pay me (the fools). And I am working on a console FPS.

Right, now that's out of the way.

Ok - you complain about the games being too linear - so do we. At the moment, we are trying very hard to make sure that there are multiple solutions to the challenges presented in our game. Sneak past guards, poison guards, distract guards, disguise yourself as a guard and shoot the breeze with them - or blow them to little chunks with the wide and varied means at your disposal (including 'weapons' created by combining found items).
You're probably thinking - 'great, but it's not enough'. Well, I'd like to remind you about a couple of things...
a) Publishers - publishers DON'T like risks. That includes innovitive gameplay. They WANT (and will fund) the next Quake/HL beater. Original stuff is risky and they will not stick their heads out for it.
b) The public - they walk into shops and say - "I want a game like Half Life." They do - I worked in E.B. (before it turned into game) for three years, and for every person who came in loking for 'something different' there were 100 who wanted 'something like...'. And of course, that means the Publishers won't touch it.
c) The magazines - how much better their magazines sell to emblazon 'Half Life Beater?' on the front cover. How much easier to describe a game (told to them by marketing) as a 'cross between HL and GTA3!'.

Sad but true. People like Molyneux (Lionhead) get away with it because they have decades of experience, truck loads of money and a name that will sell games anyway. And the rest of us can't afford to have a game in production for 5 years

I could go on, but I think that's the most pertinent points.

Independants, like all of us here (and me in my spare time) have an amazing amount of freedom - and a wonderful opportunity to change things. If inde games like ours do well, the public and publishers will take not - and yours can be the next genre of game to be copied until oblivion!
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Redmotion
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 17:35
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Tinkergirl: (I made a decision about 3 years ago. It was architecture or games...? I was a 3d artist at the time. I also knew getting into the games industry would be tough and I might end up hating it for the reasons you described.) So I stayed as a trainee architect. I'm bitter and twisted about Architecture too, but at least the pays reasonable and the hours are normal most of the time. And crunch times never last longer than about 3 DAYS (EVER). I've worked on a weekend once in 6 years. (Although I'd be playing games all weekend which is what do half the time anyway!)

At a game company I would have I wanted to be in charge. But I knew that was highly unlikely (because I can't act!). (But people like Elixir keeping making my game ideas anyway - EVIL GENIUS Can't wait for Republic.). I wanted to be original and as you say - in the industry that is also highly unlikely.

And I agree, DB means I can work when I want, on what I want (even if it's pants !!) and have the oportunity to do something brilliant if I'm lucky! Don't hold your breath though.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 18:25
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Tinkergirl... i've also done alot of level designing (and yes at a professional level), and although the publisher says they have a clear view of what they want it's my experience they're like the 12yo's around here.

they tell you they want one thing, if what is show is something along the lines of what they want but with things they'd of never through of suddenly you get comment like "Ohhh awesome, we'd never of though of that."

see the best way to get around the limitations that we're all given (aside form actually being the Senior member in the team and having some power to make decisions ) is to actually panda to what they think they want, then convince them that they actually want something a bit more.

i'm not saying you can take Quake and make it into a Semi-Command&Conquer ... there is only so far you can reasonably push it, but if you think of little innovations then suddenly you'll find that it is that which makes you game stand our from the rest.

its like when Rag-Doll physics was first used 2years ago, everyone though that the developers were being insane - however now Rag-Doll phsyics is used everywhere. You might be wondering what that has to do with level design and linear gameplay.
its simple everything that you can push which is new and novel - that will be something else you can use to give the illusion of taking away the linear setup.

although yeah you can have a totally linear mission like HL, what you could do is actually design a whole floor rather than just a section. Some with misleading sections and such - it doesn't take much as alot, especially if you think about the fact that most buildings which are large have some similarity throughout which you could have the player get lost and confused within. Even with only a matter of 3 identical sections of the level with very slight differences this can give the illusion the base is ALOT bigger than it previously was.

of course for 7dp i've thrown the manual out on sensible level creation and it all goes to the suite of a very limited setup, but you have so much free range you'd think that the missions were as well. A good example is there is about 20 square miles of LA being created (i only have about 4 from my house right now) which the player can come back to at any time using a plane or something to travel between the countries, follow directions to actually get to just this one little apartment which has someone you have to talk to.

ofcourse this can be enourmous work, but when you think about howto impliment it and talk with programmers about how they could achieve a system for developing a city based on a preset structure design. you can give the player alot of freedom and wasted space which makes them thing they can go anywhere and do anything.

also how the player has to react in situations, can they think thier way out or do they just shoot thier way out? giving them options even limited options on if they can go one without a conflict of if they have to go through a single point.
Perhaps a small script that changes what happens in the next level so you have say 2 possible endings for a level, if you go out of one route then you have a small side adventure that shows you a different section of the same story from a different perspective, but the end of that one again is crossed to have the exact same two possible endings as if you'd chosen the other route.

there are so many things you can do without breaking what the publishers see as a "winning" formula - and if you can impress them to have more fun with a set genre then you can bet you can get damn good reviews from the mags which people listen to - sometimes blindly

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Redmotion
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 21:28 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2003 21:31
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Raven : thats what makes doing DB in evening so relaxing! = NO POLITICS. No manipulation, no trying to con people into what you want and making them think it's something else. Architects have to do that with planners!! (Who, without a single HOUR of design education, think they know what good or bad design is. But because they are in a position of power (they say yes or no) they inevitably get their own way or at least some of it... )

Enter the Matrix is awful but it is a winning formula (it made a few bob I reckon) - it is a license for a mediocre film sequel. People bought cos it because it got "Matrix" written on it...

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APEXnow
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 23:36
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Jasonio.

Quote: "But I cannot get the UV maps to work. I have tried baked textures but they never come in 100%. What program and .X exporter/convertor do you use? I'm downloading the DX8 SDK because Raven mentioned there was a microsoft convertor/exporter"


At the moment, I've been playing with two programs. Cartography shop being the first, although I'm really waiting on v3.

Secondly, I've been using AC3D for exporting into a program for lightmapping which can be found at http://www.windssoft.com. Basically it generates two .X models, one for base textures, the other for UV lightmapped textures. When loading in the models into DBPro, I've had to make sure that both .X map files are not affected by the ambient light level, otherwise they look crap!

I'm still playing with the INTERSECT OBJECT collision method, but it isn't very efficient at the moment and I'm totally rewriting my code to make it more robust.

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pugmartin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 01:01
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Ha! Talking about people nicking ideas!...

You know, ive been waiting years for someone to come up with my unique idea for a game (I even hinted at the basic premise at the start of the year - search for the 'Old Skool Adventures' topic) but have been too bogged down of late to check out the forum.

And guess what?

Someones finally realised the same as me!

Good on you mate. Ive got a few things i done a couple of years ago when i was using DIV to try and make the exact same thing youre talking about. As you can imagine, its a lot harder in 2d. Before that, i was using AMOS PRO on the Amiga to try a few things out. Even harder on that.

Ive mentioned before that i was a fan of Personal Nightmare from ages ago. If youre not familiar with it, its a horror game set in a very small village with a tight knit community. And it used to be atmospheric as hell!

Ive got the whole story, characters, ideas etc worked out, and have had for bloody ages, what with working on it for so long.

Thats what my level editors gonna hopefully be used for.
Unfortunately, as you say yourself, it would need lightmapping to be any use for the kind of thing we are talking about. And with BSPs, thats just a waste of time.
So i took good old Ravens advice a while ago now and started on COG.
(Havent had ANY time at all lately though - new job, three shifts - so all i do all day is dream of new plot lines and character quirks/animations etc)

I truly believe that if something like this was developed (By that i mean a true "FREE" adventure. This "hey! You got my idea" thing has happened once to me before: Shenmue... What a let down after all the promises. That isnt a FREE game at all: follow someone until they go home. Knock on the door. "I guess theres noone at home"...Aaargh!) then the whole gaming world would take notice and maybe even start focusing on the 'bedroom coders' again. And even if not, the very least it would do would be to force the BIG BOYS (ie the EAs of this world) to stop churning out the same old crap year in year out. If only Lionhead or *Miyamoto* could put their resources to something such as this...

Jasonio, i salute you for being the first person ive come across (oo - er missus...) to see what COULD be done in a game. You've hit the nail right bang on the head when you talk about multiple ways to complete a puzzle etc. One ive always had is say breaking into someones house:

Window, door, roof etc. Any way is viable but the doors locked at night. You could catch the guy when he's at the pub and hangs his coat up (This being an idea straight from Personal Nightmare) , but you'd have to be quick, he'll need it on his way home (This, unfortunately, isnt...).

Or you could maybe open the upstairs window with the aid of a ladder, maybe found next door. You`d have to be quiet though, and no 'Monkey Island'-esque ladder in pocket stuff here - be seen, be caught.

Or, if youre lucky enough, you may just open the letter box and see the spare key hanging on the inside of the door (apparently some *mad* people do this.

I have plenty (more complicated) ideas for a project such as this - believe me, ive thought about this for a long, long time and its a big part of my life - but ive always felt very reluctant to mention it anywhere for fear of it being seen by some industry big wig and them thinking : (strokes chin in thoughtful way as strokes fluffy, evil looking cat on lap...) "Hmmm, interesting..."

If youre serious about this mate, drop me a mail, you`ve just made me want to get something going even quicker now!

Honestly though, ive got some ideas, routines i definately think will interest you...

Good luck with this either way though, im glad someones finally seen the light!!!

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 16:17
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Hi all again, and I'm sorry this is off the original topic.

Right.
Pugmartin - the game I'm currently working as a level designer on, and have had the design documents for almost a year now, utilises some of the concepts you've been mentioning. Basically, if there is a problem facing the player, there should be at least three ways of doing it. Preferably one sneaky way, one other way and ALWAYS a 'blow everything up' way. That last is imperative as it is a FPS we're working on, and I'm not allowed around that. The reason for that is - it's a shooter. People who buy the game and can't win by shooting everything in the game (no matter how hard that might make it) will be VERY annoyed. So, we do our best to provide, and cater to as many different ways of succeding. Believe me, breaking into houses to suceed is not new (Thief I/II, Deus Ex etc) and the game that I'm working on does it too (occasionally).
I'm afraid that nothing you have mentioned is terribly original in the world of games, exept possibly the exact method of puzzle solution.

Raven - Introducing somewhat disorientating surroundings, and extranious level space. I would get fired for that. People HATE getting lost. (And when I say 'people' I mean the vast majority of the teenage-male-American-buying-public.) Getting lost is 'very bad'. Hell, being required to retrace your steps without something drastically different and novel happening in the space that you had already explored - BIG no-no. These are not 'rules' that I have made, these are accepted (not nessesaryly good) in the games industry. 'People' want constant action (with maybe an instantly accessable HQ for a breather), new and exciting locations every 5 minutes or less (2 minutes is becoming popular), 'levels' that average out at 6 minutes to run across (there is a good article about this in Develop magazine), short or no cutscenes, a plot that is easily ignorable, etc etc etc. I don't say I like it - but it's what SELLS.

Jasonio - So true. Office/developer/publisher politics stink. Also - big names and liscences can be a curse or a blessing. If you want paid, and if you want a guaranteed number of sales, do a liscence. But you'll have less time, less freedom and will be considered a 'cop-out' by you're contemporaries. However, there are a couple of GOOD liscences - Tony Hawks could so easily have been a £9.99 piece of cack.

Um, I think I've said enough. Sorry if I sounded rude.
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Redmotion
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 19:20
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I hate getting lost too actually, especially after leaving a game alone for a few weeks, picking it up and going - dur... what do I do now? I've forgetten! Then it's straight onto the internet to download the walkthrough!

Breaking into houses sounds like a ninja game idea I've been toying in my head with...

(I write more later.... busy!)

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Redmotion
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 19:31
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Of course not knowing what to do is impossible if there are between 2-10 (Say) ways to solve a puzzle - like breaking into a house. It could be based around time:
1.He goes to the pub at five - leaves his coat on the peg and you take the key from the pocket.
2.You wait until he leaves pick the very flimsy lock on the gate to the garden and go round the back where he's left the door onto the patio unlocked.
3.He comes back at 11 and while you watch concealed behind a fence nearby he realises drunkenly that he has drop his keys.
4. Try to enter the house at other times of day/week & it is locked or he is in and you'll have to blag your way out of the situation.
5. Bump him over the head while he stoops to pick up his dropped back door key under the vase on the patio,etc...
6. The patio door is locked - the key is under the patio.
7. Like a moronic Arnie you can fire a rocket into the front door!!! A charcter nearby blurts out "Haven't you ever heard of knocking?"

If it was a time travelling game you could observe these events and trace back so you can get the key by knowing when it was vulnerable.
Or Talk to other unsavoury characters in the street to find clues to these solutions then use your nonce! ...etc.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 20:24
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Also, if you check out a films like goodfellas and heat (very popular lads films I might add!), the violence is not constant. It is interspersed with 'quiet' bits (at least bits not requiring gun fire!), which in turn make the violence a lot more pronounced and shocking when it comes.

The "constant barrage of gunfire" is a misleading route for companies to be taking. The human brain quickly becomes numbed to repetative experiences no matter how violent. (Which, I reckon, is one reason why we don't finish most of them.) Many games place bosses as the token "rewards" - I personally find bosses just get on my nerves. Or you get the token cut scene pulling the story onwards.

It is the play = reward structure that carries people through a game. I'm suggesting the structure is puzzle based with a violent, well orchestrated game for the gun battle to complete each section, the battle being the reward.

I'm thinking of a game having probably no more than 5-10 large gun battles, along the same intensity as that scene in Heat. I want the violence to go from quiet to climatic. It's kind of an FPRPG. If I was in charge you'd be lucky if there is a single gun in the first 3 levels. People don't feel that confident without a gun do they? It might be a bit scarey in that case... Course I might stick an axe in there instead...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 21:16
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Tinkerbell, you wouldn't be fire for it trust me ... although you have to put it into perspective.

look at DeusEx, although personally i hated the actualy gameplay of the game - it was one of the biggest sellers and the worlds were setup basically exactly how i've descriped, there are doors that lead nowhere, extra ways to get into a building.

the reason you don't deviate from the "unwritten forumula" is because people are afriad of change without the push, they like to know thier money will go to making some which will sell - and the ironic thing is that they're actually alienating alot of the gaming population by doing this.

just look at the amount of people who play things like serious sam, complete it within no time then take it back.
although i'll admit immediate sales are great, gamers are now used to the 10day money back guarentee ... just because you sell the game doesn't mean that it'll count as a real sale.

level designer need to be more inventive, you need to explain to your seniors how a more creative level can add to the gameplay.
It doesn't have to be big changes, anything to break free of "walk here-shoot this-grab the key-walk here- kill him- complete" kinda levels.

Medal of Honour on the Playstation for example has some very confusing levels, but that just add to the atmosphere and it was one of the best selling FPS on the Playstation which is why it got a sequal.

Hidden&Dangerous have a more open level giving you a complete world albeit small and then you the option to complete it however you choose with your team.

innovations aren't bad, and level designers than believe that if they deviate even a little from the set standard they'll get thier p45 are what are actually killing the industries creativeity.

underneath the game is still an FPS isn't it, just because you add the ability to push walls so that you can reach new areas - or be able to hack down doors in a build or even add in a full working air ducts system you can crawl through... these changes only add to the gameplay they don't take away from what the game it.

but all means put in a linear mission setup, but the world itself seems bigger with even the smallest of novel ideas to use...
you make the world to suit the game, not the gamer - if it doesn't them you might as well assign the game a budget sticker on release because it'll just be classed as another clone - unless it has better graphics, but if you think pure better graphics improves the game then go ahead and let that continue.

i'm a 3D/CGi Enginner/Artist by trade, and personally i see graphics as a tool not something to just flagrantly show off. Sure it is a point to make a good looking game, but a bigger point is to have agame which deserves to look good.

if i want a linear pointA->pointB game with no thinking required with good graphics. Look at games like Goldeneye, they're very linear missions, but the way the worlds are setup give you a sense of freedom although you have none. Sure they can be confusing sometimes - but that is probably one of the best FPS game on a console of all time.

change might not be what publishers want, but change is what the people want ... Halo is one of the most highly anticipated games for the PC, it is one of the best games on the XBox, that is what an FPS should be like ... the freedom and the pure involvement scale.

if you stick to publisher rules, you will NEVER create a game like that. should remember your the developers - it might be the publishers money your developing with, but at the end of the day they don't have a clue what gamers like, only what thier books like.
but if you create something the gamer actually like thier books will look like a dream to them.

innovation is the way forward, not the way out of the door - i just wish more developers had the balls that a select few companies have.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 16:18
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Hello Raven,

Ah - I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Believe me, the game that I'm working on has innovations here and there, the style of the game is subtly different (at least, we like to hope it is) from the glut of fps's that instantly boomerang back to the shops. We have a variety of ways of achieving the player's goal, catering to a fairly wide variety of gaming styles. And again believe me, I'm suggesting no few of thse mini-innovations myself - expanding the remit of the design document in small, digestable ways.

However, my earlier point was that the often black-and-white view that people who have not yet 'enjoyed' the industry is that developers should just make totally unique, novel games that will be published world wide to massive acclaim. And that that was unfortunately quite unrealistic.

I think I'm fairly safe from the dreaded p45 at the moment - my comment was most likely the over-dramatised knee jerk reaction to a suggestion that is currently very unpopular in the mainstream industry. And yes - I know that a lot of the games buying industry is being alienated by the current percieved thoughts on 'the proper game'. Hell - I probably fit into a significant number of those pidgeonholes that marketing loves so much. Female gamer? (Though not as rare as we once were.)

As for Deus Ex - yep, I liked it (at least the start, never felt compelled to complete it). And the exploration and 'semi-rpg' feel to it has not gone unnoticed. I'd like to tell you about the game I'm working on, but as you know, NDA's forbid.
I'd defend it, cite examples of levels and play and try to convince you that we're NOT going for the 40bullets/sec approach (at least, not primeraly). We're trying very hard to provide that approach to the player who chooses that option - and fun, feasible and novel approaches for those who do not choose that way. Anyway, I think I'm repeating myself now.


Hello to Jasonio,

The need for moments of contrast is not lost on me As I mentioned (badly) in one of my earlier posts, even conventional bullet-fests provide a moment of respite in the form of loading screens and mission briefings/HQs. While those are really pathetic solutions, I like to examine the pace of play over a level (and I'm not alone here), ensuring that the 'acts' of many film styles is maintained on each 'level' or section of play. The introduction, the building of tension, the first climax, the respite and the finale. You'll also find that in several games, the Shakespearian (sp) tactic of comic relief is also used with effect. Even he knew that relief from heavy going topics (be them tragedy, horror or violence) needs a respite to provide perspective to the watcher, a rest for the emotions and an outlet for stress. Shakespere's plays were the mass media of the day - much as games are becoming now. The Bard was on the right track

Aye, I'll shut up now. x-d
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Redmotion
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 17:16
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Ahhh, Mission briefings... well theres a thing. I only remember playing a few games that did that well and one of them was hidden and dangerous (one of the reasons for the insane amount of games based around WW2). But the game itself also had very well structured levels too. The silent approach creeping towards the destination, taking people out with the rifle... Making sure other members of the squad were safe...The sudden bursts of violence...

Heres to H&D2 being more of the same, because lets face it: the time inbetween has been pretty devoid of innovation. At least they got the formula right first time...I don't mind if they repeat it. Noone else has. In this respect, I hope Half Life 2 remains close to its original. I played it again about 3 months ago and there was definitely something different about the gameplay... Think it might have been the LEVEL design...

I doubt many other similar commercial games this year will touch it. Regardless of what is being developed by people NOW. HL2 was finished pretty much 6 months ago with only tweaks and bug ironing-out to be done. So the ideas and concepts in it are nearly 2 years old. So slagging it off (not you Tinkergirl! ) because it isn't the latest tech is pointless. We won't see stuff like that for another year. It will, when it arrives, be the most advanced FPS game in the MARKETPLACE to date. No arguements.

Dual athlon 2000 MP - 1GB ram
"It's the devils way now...There's no way out...You can scream and you can shout!
It is too late now..BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PLAYING ATTENTION.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 03:48
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i know the industry is very different to see from the inside than the outside... and unfortunately as a Jnr your adviced to keep your mouth shut about design - personally i love innovations in what i'm developing so you can just image how i felt working on level for TR4 & 5 ... the idea was just enough innovation to make it seems slightly new, but not enough to actually give the player a new experience. There was a fight nail&tooth to include the prescripted hand2hand, and even more disappointingly was we'd worked on a whole hand2hand combat system which the designer felt made the game too violent and was just dropped like an anchor around 3weeks before release

i've found that in a design seat you can have alot more freedom to push what you feel should go ahead ... and listening to the ideas of everyone around you as well as making sure they back you up tends to help
unfortunately there are too many pig headed designers (always a guy) who think they know whats best.

to tell you the truth i hated DeusEx, it hated its design and implimentation - but the ideas behind it were good and novel which in the right hands could've be truely awesome.
it only takes changing one little thing in a game to make it so totally different that it seems a new experience - and making sure the game can flow around the change is really what designers need to do.

if a game doesn't hold any innovations its obvious that that team is lead by the designer and people who don't actually get thier hands dirty or have any real imagination rather than sitting down and having a meeting on what to make.

whilst i held a place over at BlueBox it was my first time as a Senior Artist, and my secondary role was Design. I felt it was good to sit down when designing key features and getting the input from everyone ... we'd all agree on what should happen, the artists would pitch some ideas and the programmers would tell them what they could possible do ... the programmers did the same with the artists - and between the two we'd come up with a pretty good blend of ideas that would be taken further.
i guess it more depends who you work under the freedom you get really.

hopefully come autumn i'll be at another company which really needs a reform in that dept. i hope my unique way of developing titles is something that will aid them for the better it certainly as hell helped the last company i worked for.

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