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3 Dimensional Chat / Milkshape VS Wings3D,an unfair battle?

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actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 18:50 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 18:51
Your comments?

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.
If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again?
actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 18:51 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 21:34
Keep this thread clean.FGS


Advantages of Modeling in Free Wings3D over Milkshape


Important and Personal Note TO READ:The only real advantages of a 3D software solely depends on it's user,his talent,background and how much he is willing to put in to perfects his art over the 'lukewarm enthusiasts' '

This is informationnal only and is NOT meant to prove Wings3D to be Easier but Technically Better and much more Featured(for the ease of use Ms3D wins hands high no doubts,so if you're a beginner/lowpolygon only modeler reading this,go with Ms3d for now like I did!).



The best and arguably Biggest advantage with modeling in Wings3D is it's ease of use and full customizability give the user the capability to concentrate on the Modeling Work itself rather than having to deal with the software's tools which involves of course and inevitably,more steps(a simple example is moving something in Ms3D involves...Select a sub-component Mode,Select the Sub-Component itself and finally Move it which is only performed in one action in wings3D via Tweak Mode)


1:Lighting:there is no easier way to get a good looking surface than with a good set of well placed diagonal lights(2) and rotating them as you work to get the shadow planes or shading as realistic as possible.

*There is no lights in Ms3D*


2:3D Viewport Editing:This is a priceless function that any modeling program should be equipped with and to quote Bay Raitt<<

-To avoid adversely affecting the silhouette while changing it in another,it's best to constantely adjust the camera position while you're working,many artists end up working on x,y and z planes,especially when the model becomes too complex to spin around freely,fortunately,that object or control object should never become so complex.


*In Ms3d,to recreate this age-old useful scuplting method,you would have to rotate the perspective viewport around the whole model/group only(no sub-selection(verts,face) can be Framed) and edit either using the Top(Y) Camera or by editing in Both X and Z viewport which is a rather old and slow method*


3:Use of Edgeloops:No Polygon-Modeling method can achieve simple muscular deformations or preparation for Morph Targets than Edgeloops.As some may have heard it is a series of inter-connected edges forming the shapes of muscular structure to be deformed such as the radial area around the mouth/eyes(either Sub-D or Low-Poly).

*In order to create edgeloops efficiently,you need to use non-triangulated meshes which Ms3D does not allow.While it is possible to create them loop shapes in it,keeping an eye on the right topological structure is really a useless pain since ALL points in a mesh are connected by one or more edges in Ms3D and also note that to make edgeloops,it is rather useful that the software actually supports Editing them(Ms3d only edits Vertice,Faces and Groups) *


5:Selectability:Wings3D excels in that matter.First,the 'Tweak' mode,by entering this mode,you can select and move any components when hovering the cursor on one of them.The Editing Planes(ZYX,XYZ...) will depend on which orientation your camera is in.It not only allows for editing the silhouette in the many angles but also has a Magnet options which,for instance,when the meshe's area is rounder(ex;breasts),allows for pulling vertice with a customisable weight in order to keep the smoothness.It is also useful for simulating deformations around the mouth or torso for allowing much more realistic deformation freedom to the mesh.
Selection being the number one tool in wings,it has it's own menu which has functions such as Selecting an Edgeloop(useful to verify their correctness),Selecting an Edge Ring(parralel edges),grow/shrink selection and more which again,like many of wings3d's dynamic tools,decreases the workflow dramaticaly.

*Ms3d has a non-dynamic select component function*


6:Box-Modelling:While the beginner may think it is a limited and hard technique,the fact is,it is the best way of learning digital sculpture you will come across and as you use it,you will understand why it is most widely used method for low-polygon modeling,myself using point-face-creation and edge-extrude techniques when using High-End softwares such as Softimage Xsi have had to re-adjust/re-adapt my workflow and methods but I learnt a great deal more than I thought I would by doing so...Never overestimate yourself,ALL artists have good and bad ones

*Milkshape,while allowing box modeling via extrusion and splitting edges,isn't an ideal choice for it can only work on one sub-component at the time,so if you ever needed to achieve a very simple operation such as adding an edge all the way around a model's leg to add details,it would implicate several(depending on the number of faces to Cut) Spilt-Edge,Turn Edges and Move the Vertice and the right point(ms3d splits edges evenly which isn't always what you will want)...while in Wings,selecting an edge,hitting the 'G' shortcut-key for Edge Ring selection would select ALL adges across a mesh,Cutting the faces would be as simple a hitting 'C'(connect),note that you can decide to place the newly Cut vertex by right-clicking over the Cut function instead of left clicking,a simple right click will confirm and finalize the position.*


7:Subdivision Surfaces:Although this is in a game devlopement context,having high-detail/Resolution Graphics is important in most of the cases where games will require pre-rendering stills or highly detailled models,Wings allows for working in Subdivision mode meaning you can model on a surface and see it's derived-smoothed version updated in the same viewport one over the other.It is also called other names depending on the software but the most comparable ones are Lightwave's and SoftimageXsi or Maya Unlimited.

*Milkshape1 will never have that implementation for it needs both the use of Quadrilateral Faces,Support for Edges,a better Renderer and many other'Under the hood characteristics that I probably don't know about but that will available when you'll pay for the next version*



TO BE DEMYSTIFIED:The use of a 'Hole' Component/material(like Gmax's Border Sub-Object ):It is very useful to clear/fill components areas of a mesh that needs welding/shaping or needn't be exported,it has come to my attention that many people think it isn't impossible or hard to achieve in Wings3D,this isn't true.Wings3d can also export geometry with 'Gaps'


Whether you like it or not,you should give it more than just a little try.

thank you,

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Simple
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 19:10
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!

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actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 19:16
Keep this thread clean.FGS

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.
If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again?
Simple
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 19:29
Well, you can't get cleaner than a good old laugh

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actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 19:30
Ok.

Now back to what really matters.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.
If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again?
Mattman
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 20:58
ya. deciding which color shirt to wear today

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 21:02
Lol!

As long as it doesn't have an logo as immature as the above I'm okay

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again?
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 22:15
I was waiting for you to start a thread soley dedicated to this topic ,

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
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actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 22:18
hehe I was eager myself

The only advantage for Ms3d so far is that it can animate and hahahahahaha.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 22:23
yes animation is a neccesary tool for gammers though i like just writing the file out in the .x format under notpad with a tool i wrote takes longer but it makes cool effects on parts of faces that you select, long live ASCII...ok i dont like Wings cuase i thought you had to compile it with visual c++ i dont know if i have it.

In our hearts and minds we keep the powers of love, hope and the hidden powers of evil in which we can mold a hero or daemon of ourselves-Book of Enoch Chapter III
actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 22:30 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 22:51
Recompile?

The source is available if you wanna try.

As far as animations are concerned they don't plan on implementing it...for now.

Wings is a dedicated modeler.

Note that it claims a very strong reputation amongst profesionnal CG artist and coders and that it is the ONLY software among 3DStudioMax,Maya,Softimage,C4D that deserved it's forum on CGTalk.com before even reaching version 1.00

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 22:42
i respect it, i saw the gallery, its really good.

In our hearts and minds we keep the powers of love, hope and the hidden powers of evil in which we can mold a hero or daemon of ourselves-Book of Enoch Chapter III
Guyon
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 23:08
Nice to see it is compatible with Hash:Animation Master not may apps do that. Sweet!

Though for DBpro you need to export .x file format. So I guess I am forced to say yes the battle is lopsided in favor of Milkshape?
actarus
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 23:24 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 23:28
hehe yes it is playing in it's favor....Plus Milkshape is easier.

It's a bit like the Dark Side of the force,more seductive and easier...But better is another matter.

About exporting the .x format,most people will agree it's easy to get done in ms3d or character FX but that's because not many people try the other softwares available...

For instance 3DCanvas exports both limbed and SkinnedMesh animation and it has for since the freeware version was out.(3.3 in 1998)

EDIT: Damn I always forget to mention that 3dcanvas uses inverse kinematics and has premade skeleton with premade joint restrictions.

TrueSpace Exports animated limbed models in an .X file.

Undoubtebly though,for limbed models,the easiest way is to use the DB convertor supplied with...you guessed it,DBV1...So's 3dcanvas and coupla' good freewares.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Mattman
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 23:55
Quote: "As long as it doesn't have an logo as immature as the above I'm okay "


r u tryin 2 insult me?

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
actarus
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 00:05
LMAO!

Nope,it's simple's logo that screams immaturity.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Arrow
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 00:26
I wonder how long you'll be abill to keep this up when Milkshape2 is released.

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actarus
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 02:10 Edited at: 27th Jun 2003 02:17
Is milkshape 2 planning on supporting Quads and Subd's?

And finally edge editing.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 02:29
i hope so because there are many 'maya' like features that should appear in it.
gotta remember to get around to emailing him the new boolean, csg tools & Render Engine

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
actarus
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 02:35
Finally that looks good...On the horizon,right there with the money.

I may even use it(yep I am open-minded)...But I'm pretty sure it'd serve me better as an animation plugin for a modeler you may know.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Smooth-Shading is an approximation of Shadows defined by the tension between two vertice.

If I've seen it all before,why's this bus taking me back again? @_@
Mattman
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 03:30
no prob actarus.

back on subject, i use milkshape

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Falelorn
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 09:32
I prefer Wings, but MS is good to. Im planning on using Wings 3D with 3D Canvas Pro.

The only reason I prefer Wings over Milkshape is how quickly i can do models in Wings. Im much slower in MS.

MegaDib
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 22:56
Where can i get a free trial of Milkshake, or can i not?
Do they sell it the shops(e.g computerworld), because i have never seen it.

Cheers guys
(Any nice Fa**y out there listening (or glistening!!).)

Simple
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 23:19
http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/

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indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 23:38
Use both, it doesnt have to be a battle.
It takes an ignorant person to use one tool and not grow from there exploring them all and utilising them hand in hand..
do they take up the same exact space on a harddrive?
do they corrupt each other?
why start a battle about it.?
I dont see the point, Its a stupid boy policy and usually the argument is left for luddites with fast cars or windows monkeys trying to push it over a mac.

to say (a) is better than (b) when they clearly live side by side is a form of racism and hatred if you get deep enough into the problem at hand.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 02:52
Quote: "windows monkeys trying to push it over a mac."

nowadays its more the Linux monkies trying to push that whatever version thier using is far superior to windows ... wish we could just go back to the simple days where Linux was a toy for the geeks or professionals.

i would've thought this'd be locked by now for the very nature ... surprised it isn't

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MikeS
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 05:37
Quote: "Use both"


I myself have used

wings3d
milkshape
quill3d
lightray3d
annim8or
cinema4D
blender
povray

and 3 or 4 more.

It's finally hit me, that one cannot be better than the other without using them both.
I use wings3d for my models, milkshape to animate them, and to fix them up a little.Simple as that.

This thread is now almost pointless.



2D Fighting game in Progress
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 06:23
well i use SoftimageXSI 3.5 - its got more features than you can shake a stick at ...

to be honest my personal preference would be Milkshape over Wings, no real reason - i just prefer it

i mean you can list all the best features in SoftimageXSI all you like, i still prefer using the inferior Maya, its not about having the technically best program ... its about having one you feel comfortable using.

Sides if you wanted free and technically better then there is always gmax

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason

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