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Dark GDK / Havok Physics

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bjadams
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 15:18
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This sounds pretty interesting:

http://www.havok.com/

Anyone interested to make this darkGDK friendly?
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Zuka
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 09:03 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2008 09:03
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I'm already doing it.

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Zuka
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 09:13
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This thing opens so many possibilites, its frightening.

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bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 15:44
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sounds interesting Zuka.

Will you release the outcome, or you're just getting it to work for yourself?
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unitech
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 19:08
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is it better the dark -phys, is it cheaper?
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bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 20:26
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well the Havok SDK is free for non-commercial use.

however i think that one needs some kind of wrapper to be able to use it easily with darkgdk... that is unless you are very proficient in c++
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Zuka
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 20:32
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It's no doubt better than Dark Physics...


Ever played Halo 3 or Oblivion? They both use Havok.

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unitech
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 20:45 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2008 20:46
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Quote: "however i think that one needs some kind of wrapper to be able to use it easily with darkgdk... that is unless you are very proficient in c++"
- Ya i think thats what Zuka is up to, if not then its more work then he thinks

Quote: "Ever played Halo 3 or Oblivion? They both use Havok.
"
- honestly no.. I don't do those 1st person view things, eww... but I have heard good things about those games..
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monotonic
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 20:56 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2008 21:00
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Quote: "It's no doubt better than Dark Physics..."


Just out of interest what basis are you using for the comparison. Because, I have seen nothing to suggest that Havok is better than PhysX. There have been some great games made using Havok and some great games made using PhysX. Simply stating that Halo 3 and Oblivion use Havok doesn't mean anything, I could give you a list of top games that use PhysX. I haven't played Halo 3 so I can't say anything about the physics implementation in that game but, I have played Oblivion and although it is an amazing game the physics implementation does not showcase Havok at all.

Plus, there is the whole licensing issue, as far as I know nobody has paid the license fee for the PhysX system.

I'm not saying that Havok is a garbage system, I am simply saying that you cannot say Havok is better than PhysX because Halo 3 and Oblivion use it.

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Zuka
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 21:21
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Why not?

I've used the Construction Kit on Oblivion... that thing has a LOT of options that are Havok-related.

Halo 3 has the best physics I've ever seen in a game. I've seen marines thrown into walls, walls just shattering, Warthogs bouncing around on bumpy roads, and a lot more.

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monotonic
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 21:36
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Why not!

Because you can't. In order to say that something is better than something else, you need to give valid coherent reasons. Fair enough, your opinion is that Havok is better than PhysX and everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion. But, to make a statement like that you need reasoning. Plus, all of those items you listed that Halo 3 has, is all old news.

Quote: "I've seen marines thrown into walls"


Ragdoll simulation, I've not seen a physics system that cannot do this.

Quote: "walls just shattering"


This would be easy enough, I've never implemented this but I'm sure it would be pretty easy. Red Faction did this, and that was years ago!

Quote: "Warthogs bouncing around on bumpy roads"


vehicle simulation.

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Zuka
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 21:50
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Ragdolls that can get up on their own...? Convincingly?

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monotonic
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 22:02 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2008 22:03
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That is a transition between a physical ragdoll and a controlled real-time animation, which is used in Euphoria motion synthesis engine for example.

So, this is not a physics system feature, for instance:
http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16856
In that article it states that the Euphoria engine is used along with PhysX in that game.

In my opinion you should grade a physics system based on things such as: speed, accuracy, capabilities & features, simplicity of use etc...

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unitech
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 22:10
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"" and easy of use. This being the fundamentally reasons I dont see it better then dark Phys. Integration is Key in some cases and this is one of them.
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programing maniac
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Posted: 4th Jun 2008 01:18
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Uh, I have just stumbled onto this thread and It is COOL!

Now how do you get havoc working? I haven't even downloaded it, but is it like a .h file and .lib file? If not, how do I get it to work?

Thanks!

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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CAJUN57
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Posted: 4th Jun 2008 02:01
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I just download it also. It has the header files and the object link files. But not sure how to get it to work..

The south will rise again
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programing maniac
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Posted: 4th Jun 2008 02:21
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Quote: "It has the header files and the object link files"

Yep, all 500,000,000 of them! have you seen how many there are? YIKES!

Zuka, could you help us out? You are using it, and it seems awesome!

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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programing maniac
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 02:44
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Do you just put ALL the limb files with the other limb files for darkgdk and the same with the header files? Is there an easier way?

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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Slayer 706
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 02:57
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I downloaded it, played with the examples, and then deleted it. It looks complex.
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Zuka
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 04:32
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Uhh... I just read the website... =P

I haven't even unzipped it yet.

If you can do any models for FW, reply to the FleetWars thread.

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bjadams
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 10:08
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Zuka we got the impression from your post that you are already working with it!!!
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unitech
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 14:16
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Zuka here is just a very optimistic person. This does not necessary mean his intention are clear, though he means well.
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programing maniac
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 16:17
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So is anyone using it yet? I mean, if it is like a free dark physics, I would so like to get it....

Quote: "Zuka we got the impression from your post that you are already working with it!!! "


Yeah....

Quote: "I'm already doing it."


I guess being that as an answer to-

Quote: "Anyone interested to make this darkGDK friendly? "


Means that you are already TRYING to get it darkGDK friendly.... I got the wrong impression....

Well, I guess I will try finding a way, does anyone know of one?

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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monotonic
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 18:42
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Quote: "I mean, if it is like a free dark physics, I would so like to get it...."


It's only free for non-commercial use.

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programing maniac
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 19:01
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Yeah, I don't think I am going to be selling stuff anytime soon.... So I don't think that will be a problem!

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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jezza
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 09:25
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i takes hours to download it. ive watched the demos and stuff but havnt managed to compile anything yet.
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 09:46
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Quote: "Halo 3 has the best physics I've ever seen in a game. I've seen marines thrown into walls, walls just shattering, Warthogs bouncing around on bumpy roads, and a lot more.
"


Play Crysis, that's got amazing physics, granted Havok is still a great step forward in gaming with more realistic environs, but nothing can beat the CryEngine......

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Bishop
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 11:16
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In-house engines are usually much better than generic ones in the application that's using it. Even the CryEngine was originally developed for an in-house tech demo-turned-game.

Such custom engines are used primarily because the company that wrote it can tailor it to a specific game or purpose. It allows such fine tuning that the engine is built around the the game, not vise-versa.

Ever played Gears of War? My personal favorite. It is made in the Unreal engine, probably the most advanced and usable engine for making nextgen games. Guess what physics engine it uses? PhysX!

Anyhow, the point of this rant is to say that one engine is superior to another, especially without personally having used both, is not a very logical thing to do. PhysX and Havok both have their merits, and though I haven't used either, I'm sure they both have their flaws. Personally, I think I'll end up using PhysX because it has been free for alot longer than Havok, so it probably has alot more tutorials and resources for it.


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unitech
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 14:33 Edited at: 6th Jun 2008 14:33
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Quote: "I think I'll end up using PhysX because it has been free for alot longer than Havok, so it probably has alot more tutorials and resources for it.
"
- This is how to make a proper decision, and its the only "real" advice I have seen in this thread. Simple but true.. The longer a project or application is our with out any major negative feed back, the better..
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programing maniac
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 15:02
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Is physX also free? Where do you find it? I googled it, and I can't find a place where you can download it. Also, how do you get it working?

Thanks

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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jezza
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 20:58
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http://developer.nvidia.com/object/get_physx_now.html
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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 21:45
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Quote: "This is how to make a proper decision, and its the only "real" advice I have seen in this thread"


This thread wasn't created to ask for advice!

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unitech
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 21:51
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Quote: "This thread wasn't created to ask for advice!"
- Referring to the topic flow of course, as it steered in that dirrection. "It's no doubt better than Dark Physics...". How does that make you any different? Your first post in this topic was to answer that position?
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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 21:54
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Nope, I think you will find if you read my posts that didn't answer any questions. What I did do, was ask the person who posted that comment to clarify why he/she thought that was so.

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unitech
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:23
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ok but you doing so engorged further discussion, thus spawning this debate. All i did was replied to the threads as they came in. You asked for clarification from said poster, and I concurred with a poster. So whats your point?
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Lilith
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:31
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Quote: "get_physx_now.html"


Let's get physxal! Physxal!

Sorry, I just needed a musical interlude.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:41 Edited at: 6th Jun 2008 22:42
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Lilith

Thank you, I now have that song stuck in my head *MUST..PLAY..SOME..HEAVY..METAL..TO..WASH..IT..OUT*


Quote: "and its the only "real" advice I have seen in this thread"


Well, the sentence above seems to suggest that every other post in this thread was useless and/or irrelevant. Now, maybe this was not your intention but, it is difficult to know how to take somebody when all you see is text on a forum. So, the reason I commented on your post to point out that nobody was giving advice, only voicing their opinions on the subject.

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unitech
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:53 Edited at: 6th Jun 2008 22:54
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Quote: "Well, the sentence above seems to suggest that every other post in this thread was useless and/or irrelevant. Now, maybe this was not your intention but, it is difficult to know how to take somebody when all you see is text on a forum. So, the reason I commented on your post to point out that nobody was giving advice, only voicing their opinions on the subject."
-And since you made it abundantly clear that you dont care to discuss this position why should you care? Since you stated you gave no advice who are you defending?


Ever here of asking? , All i meant was it's the only advice towards the position that is measurable IMO. And specifically i dont feel any of your posts were out of line aside from "This thread wasn't created to ask for advice!", of course. So sit back, pop open a cold one get some midol and let's just be like fonzie here..

Damn it Lilith...
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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 23:04
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Sorry, but what you just said was totally redundant of meaning.

Quote: "And since you made it abundantly clear that you dont care to discuss this position why should you care?"


I have been posting so obviously I do care to discuss it.

Quote: "Ever here of asking? , All i meant was it's the only advice towards the position that is measurable IMO."


??????


Anyhoo, onwards and upwards.

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programing maniac
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 23:16 Edited at: 6th Jun 2008 23:43
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Quote: "http://developer.nvidia.com/object/get_physx_now.html "


Ok, thanks. Now how do I get it working? It seems to have a LOT of .lib's and .h's. Which ones do I need?

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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Bishop
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 01:36
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Lol, I love it, TGC is full of hard-headed people who love to argue =D


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unitech
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 01:56 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 01:59
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Quote: "And since you made it abundantly clear that you dont care to discuss this position why should you care?"
the first instance of "care" refers to the opinion about the physics engine, the second instance refers to my post. I figured you were capable of figuring that out on your own.

Quote: "??????"

Wow. I have to explain that also?

Ok watch..

I say..
Quote: "This is how to make a proper decision, and its the only "real" advice I have seen in this thread. Simple but true.. The longer a project or application is our with out any major negative feed back, the better.."


you chose to reply with
Quote: "This thread wasn't created to ask for advice!"


a better way would be to say

Quote: "So are you suggesting what I'm saying is not meaningful or relevant."



Like you said
Quote: "Now, maybe this was not your intention but"
,... If you would have asked you would not have to wonder.

Now since midol nor alcohol has any effect on you, might I suggesting you coming to the realization that this is getting us no where? Here you are suggesting the topic had nothing to do with advice, yet you continue to have a pointless battle. quite hypocritical. If you're so worried about the topic being on cue then point your focus there.

Quote: "
Lol, I love it, TGC is full of hard-headed people who love to argue =D"
- agreed again, if thats ok with you monotonic...
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Lilith
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 02:02
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Quote: "Lol, I love it, TGC is full of hard-headed people who love to argue =D"


Do not!!!

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Zuka
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 02:20 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 02:21
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I don't like Havok anymore.




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monotonic
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 02:21
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Quote: "if thats ok with you monotonic"


lol. NO!

Ok, this is the last post I'm going to make. I am perfectly capable of understanding what people write, if it is written in a sensible and coherent fashion.

Quote: "Here you are suggesting the topic had nothing to do with advice, yet you continue to have a pointless battle. quite hypocritical. If you're so worried about the topic being on cue then point your focus there."


This bit made me laugh, it takes two to tango my friend. It seems you have made a mountain out of a mole hill. I dislike messing the forum up with nonsense like this but, I'm afraid when people talk the verbal equivalent of cow manure, I feel the urge to try and help them.

Quote: "might I suggesting you coming to the realization that this is getting us no where"


The fact of the matter is, we have both contributed to this. I'm sure you will make another post following this with some other equally redundant sentences.

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unitech
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 04:17 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 04:19
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Ok as you started I finish,, my last as well..

Quote: "Ok, this is the last post I'm going to make. I am perfectly capable of understanding what people write, if it is written in a sensible and coherent fashion."
- Yes we do have to be more specific with some...

Quote: "This bit made me laugh, it takes two to tango my friend. It seems you have made a mountain out of a mole hill. I dislike messing the forum up with nonsense like this but, I'm afraid when people talk the verbal equivalent of cow manure, I feel the urge to try and help them."
help, this is your pile of cr@p my friend I'm just entertaining at your expense.

Quote: "when people talk the verbal equivalent of cow manure.
"
- takes two to talk...

Quote: "The fact of the matter is, we have both contributed to this. I'm sure you will make another post following this with some other equally redundant sentences."
No just finishing the non-sense your started. After all you called me out.

OH heck not like the thread was going any where, both packages are superb. PhysX is at least is a real option with GDK as a sold bundle so its the only real option.
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programing maniac
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 15:49
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this is strange, it says the last person to post something was Unitech, but I don't see the post....

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programing maniac
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 15:51
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wait, I got it

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programing maniac
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 15:51
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So does anyone know how to use physX?

~~Its not about what you know, its about how you figure it out.~~
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unitech
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 18:27
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programing maniac, as far as I know the only "easy" way it to buy the package from GDK. Trying to cast it over it not going to be an easy task, though could be done.
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