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Dark GDK / ATTENTION: Immediate assistance required for DarkGDK.NET completion!!

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jasuk70
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 16:56
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VB.net is great. You can do anything that C# can do and more!

And I do.

VB6 isn't so great (Which is what most people think VB.net is anyway)

Jas

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"What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not'release' software. It escapes leaving a bloody trail of developers and quality assurance people in its wake!"
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Mahoney
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 18:55
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Quote: "VB.net is great. You can do anything that C# can do and more!"


I have to disagree. Close, maybe, but definitely not more.

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jasuk70
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 19:12 Edited at: 16th Oct 2008 19:13
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Try to do this in C#



I.e embedded XML

Jas

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kBessa
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 21:50
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Embedded XML might have some problems in the future, there are some articles out there that explain it.

C# still has a lot of functionalities that VB.NET lacks, like:
-Object initializers
-Collection initializers
-Anonymous types
-Lambda expressions
-Pointers

But you choose the language you like the most. Most of these features have an alternate method (even if it is more difficult) to do it in the other language. The only REAL exception are pointers, but just a few developers will use them.

Let's not make this a language fight. Anyone uses the language he/she likes. Just like me and APEX, he does most of it in VB.NET and I do most in C#, but we can chat nicely.

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Mahoney
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 22:00
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Quote: "Let's not make this a language fight. Anyone uses the language he/she likes. Just like me and APEX, he does most of it in VB.NET and I do most in C#, but we can chat nicely"


Sorry. Wasn't looking to fight. Just denying the factual sense of it.

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Lilith
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 23:46
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Quote: "I.e embedded XML"


Yeah, but who'd want to?

Seriously, I really dislike XML. Microsoft seems to be using it as a catch all for everything they do. I think Word/Excel/Access are now zip files with several different XML files. That seems rather inefficient to me. And it's wrecking havoc with my anti-virus scanners.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
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Niels Henriksen
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 00:32
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XML is good
Assembler is good
Pen and paper is good

Im trying to look at F# now ... THATS intersting

Niels Henriksen
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if Microsoft can sell software with bugs, so can I.
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Lilith
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 00:34
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But XML isn't a programming language, though I guess it could be cobbled to be the source code for one.

Would you believe the Microsoft is working on a new language called "M"? Guess what that's short for.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
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Niels Henriksen
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 00:37
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I know that xml is not a programming lauguage, but what about XSLT? Im making a CMS using XSLT.

A new language is always intersting...

<joke>
Im planning on making a language called N#++
</joke>



Niels Henriksen
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Mahoney
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 02:16
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Quote: "Would you believe the Microsoft is working on a new language called "M"?"


Four .NET languages is far too many. Seriously:

VB.NET
C#
F# soon
M(#?)

Too many.

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kBessa
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 03:00
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Why? The more the better!

I'm making K# right now...

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Jimmy 9 Toes
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 03:24 Edited at: 17th Oct 2008 03:31
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I'm waiting for Qb (Q-flat) to come out. That will be an awesome language where programs will automatically write themselves for you based upon the mood you're in while sitting on the toilet in the morning. If (for instance) you've eaten some spicey Indian food for dinner. The next morning, your program will burn your backside,and run rather quickly. (I'm not bashing Indian food, in fact I love it). But you see how the language will work.
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pirogoth
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 03:58
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Mahoney: You're missing quite a few .NET languages actually!

C#, VB.NET, F#, C++/CLI, J#, M, IronPython, IronRuby, Lua (yes, there is a .NET port of lua now), Perl (by activestate), Nemerle (My language of choice), COBAL (why god, WHY?) and a great many others.

.NET is a runtime environment and framework. There is a LOT to be said for making all off these languages interoperable. The best part about this, is that we truly can pick the right tool for the job and have it compile down to run on the same runtime.

-Piro
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Mahoney
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:08
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Quote: "C#, VB.NET, F#, C++/CLI, J#, M, IronPython, IronRuby, Lua (yes, there is a .NET port of lua now), Perl (by activestate), Nemerle (My language of choice), COBAL (why god, WHY?) and a great many others."


:o





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pirogoth
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:23
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Bah, you act like it's a bad thing. This grants you the ability to use the right tool for the job, without leaving behind any substantial code bases you've written in another language (provided you stick to the CLR anyway).

As much as I love C and standard C++, .NET really has made my life a lot easier, and a lot more enjoyable.

-Piro
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Mahoney
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:26
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I know. I was joking.

I've just never enjoyed using .NET languages. C and C++ are the only ones that I find "fun." Oh, and ASM.

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pirogoth
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:32
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To each their own. =P But you should try and broaden your understanding of programming. Pick up a functional language if you haven't (Lisp, OCaml, F#, Scheme). Makes for a whole new world. =P

-Piro
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Mahoney
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:35
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I've been trying to find a suitable language to switch to. Just not sure which one. I only like C-like languages. To be honest, it's because I find any other kind ugly. >.>

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pirogoth
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:43
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Well that tosses Perl out the window then, now doesn't it? =P

In all seriousness, I thought the same about Python for about a year. Learn another language, REALLY learn it, use it for your projects for a while. You'll break yourself of that thought process, especially when you find out how quickly you can get your work done.

At this point I know a few over a dozen languages, all of which are fairly different. I'm a better programmer for it. Lots of tools under my belt and a good understanding of design. Functional languages will beat "design" into your head. =P

-Piro
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Mahoney
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 04:59
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Any suggestions?

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pirogoth
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 05:14
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My initial thought would be either Python or Ruby, but they don't depend on new design or structure principles. If "ugly" is an issue, then that pretty much throws Lisp out, depending on individual taste. From a design perspective Lua would be a good direction, but it lacks any kind of real standard library.

As a personal preference, I'd suggest looking into either Nemerle or Scheme. Both are functional languages, rather than imperative.

Nemerle can do imperative programming, but requires including a separate namespace. Nemerle is a hybrid of a few things really. It's a mash up of Lisp, OCaml and C#, which gives it a lot of options. It's pattern matching is near second to none and provides true macro support.

Scheme is commonly taught in universities as a "first" programming language, and for good reason. Most of the common paradigms can be taught with it, but the design of the language itself forces good design principles from the get go. Then they teach you C/C++/Java/C#/Whatever. As a whole, it's an excellent language and I'd highly recommend it. It supports most of the features Nemerle does, with a few exceptions.

Either will fit your needs, but I'd look towards Scheme. Nemerle is my personal favorite language, but the documentation on the language is minimal at best. There is a LOT of material on Scheme however. Go with scheme.

-Piro
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Mahoney
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 05:24
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I like the look of Nemerle much more than Scheme.

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pirogoth
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Posted: 19th Oct 2008 06:18
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There's nothing wrong with Nemerle. =P Just remember, the documentation is fairly crappy so it might be difficult to learn at first.

This will probably be the most helpful to you: http://nemerle.org/Quick_Guide It's the general breakdown of the language syntax. There are a few tutorials as well, but they tend to be rather poorly written.

That all said, if you're choose Nemerle over Scheme due to the syntax looking less ugly, I'd suggest using Scheme. You want to break that thought process. =P

-Piro
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jasuk70
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Posted: 21st Oct 2008 14:13
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Quote: "
C# still has a lot of functionalities that VB.NET lacks, like:
-Object initializers
-Collection initializers
-Anonymous types
-Lambda expressions
-Pointers
"


-Object initializers
http://community.bartdesmet.net/blogs/bart/archive/2007/08/25/visual-basic-9-0-feature-focus-object-initializers.aspx

-Collection initializers
Yup, you're right about that one but it is going to come apparently
http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2008/05/14/23348.aspx

-Anonymous types
http://community.bartdesmet.net/blogs/bart/archive/2007/08/26/visual-basic-9-0-feature-focus-anonymous-types.aspx

-Lambda expressions
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb531253.aspx?ppud=4

-Pointers
I suppose you can say VB uses references is a pointer type way. But I've never needed to use a pointer at all in VB.net in the C/c++ way of things. (Making my code much easier to debug )

Jas

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kBessa
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Posted: 21st Oct 2008 17:52
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Ok, I might have overlooked it.

Anyways, the matter of choosing a language to develop for the .NET Framework is just a matter of taste. In the end, we will all be using the same core components that comes with it, a bunch of Assemblies with a hell lot more of Namespaces flooded with thousands of classes that are equally available to any CLR compliant language and, in the end, everything will be compiled almost to the same.

But as I said, let's not make this a language war, k?


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Jimmy 9 Toes
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2008 05:12 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2008 05:16
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I don't care. C# is still a much more elegant language.

Besides, consider what the 'B' stands for in the acronym:
Beginners
All Purpose
Symbolic
Instruction
Code

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Lilith
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2008 05:24
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I think that BASIC has evolved considerably since the early days and perhaps Beginner is a bit misleading. I was never comfortable with it when I built my first computer and I only used it when I needed something quick. Most of my early work was done in assembler for the 8080.

C (and its derivatives) got me closer to the bits and bytes than BASIC did and once I understood pointers enough I couldn't do without them. I love writing my own pointer based code.

C# has let me write some really quick and not so dirty code because the classes that are delivered with it do 95% of the work for me. But I do miss pointers.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
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Niels Henriksen
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2008 11:53
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Lilith is right... BASIC is not for beginners anymore. But for people like me who started with BASIC back in goood old '85 (no... not 1885 like in Back To The Future) its more easy to use BASIC like VB.NET becuase Im familiar with the syntax.

But the jump to C# is not so big. Thats the thing about .NET platform I love.

I have tried C++ but it takes me more time to make the same in C++ than in VB. So the language for me is clear... I know what I use...

I have been programming in: Perl, PHP, Delphi, Assember, C++, Comal80, Java, Javascript, Lua, Pascal....

Niels Henriksen
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jasuk70
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2008 12:08
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Quote: "Besides, consider what the 'B' stands for in the acronym:
Beginners
All Purpose
Symbolic
Instruction
Code"


Just as a bit of random knowledge. The company I work for does a basic compiler as part of its product base. And you may be surprised that before the local governments in the UK started splurging out loads of money on computer systems that do not work, they mostly run (And quite a few still do) on basic code. A few years back (In my youth) I wrote part of an A&E system that was written in Pick Data Basic. And it happened to be the only system in the country at the time that could return the government information automatically without the need to add things up manually. And today quite a few world banks run on Basic code at the heart of their systems (And no it's not the cause of the worlds financial problems before the first wise crack, that lies in the hands of humans).
I've never said that C/C++/C# are bad languages, I have to use all 3 on a day to day basis (And yes I use a "Pick" style Basic and VB.net too).

Quote: "But as I said, let's not make this a language war, k?"


The only reason I followed that message up was to do with the dodgy "Facts" being presented

Jas

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kBessa
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2008 20:06
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No problem Jas, I admit I was wrong

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Jimmy 9 Toes
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2008 20:46 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2008 21:02
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Sorry folks.

I just love to stir up a juicy controversy from time to time. I actually enjoy using Basic. It was the first language I learned on the old TRS-80 Model I my science teacher used to bring into school (We didn't even have a computer department at the time, it was his own personal computer). My first exposure to Structured Basic programming came when I got my Sinclair QL. What an awesome little computer for it's time. On my first job as a programmer we actually used QBasic, then later Quick Basic, then we moved to PDS 7, then Visual Basic For DOS.

I love C# becasue it was as easy to learn as Basic, and seemed more geared for the .Net framework when it first came out.

I just like to poke fun at people still using VB.Net out of sport.



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Jimmy 9 Toes
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Posted: 28th Oct 2008 17:25
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AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

COME ON!!!

I haven't much hair left on my head...
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kBessa
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Posted: 28th Oct 2008 18:02
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Lol! I'm getting a little bit anxious too.

I really need the newest (release, not pre-release) version so that I can re-compile and release my plugins

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Niels Henriksen
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Posted: 29th Oct 2008 10:54
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<joke>
I have just heard that TGC want to wait till .NET 4.0
</joke>

Niels Henriksen
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Gervais
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Posted: 29th Oct 2008 13:02
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<joke>
No this is too early they are waiting for the Linux version of Dark Basic Professional version xyz
<joke>
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Diggsey
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Posted: 29th Oct 2008 16:44
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For a moment I thought the thread title read:
ATTENTION: Assistance required for immediate DarkGDK.NET completion!!

Ah well

[b]Yuor signutare was aresed by a deslyxic mud...
BOX2D V2 HAS HELP FILES! AND A WIKI!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 1st Nov 2008 19:55 Edited at: 1st Nov 2008 19:57
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Ok, Mike has the new version, and I've done all I can on the toolkit for now until I get some feedback from Mike and a few other testers. If all is well, the toolkit will be ready for release.

I appreciate people's patience, but I just wanted to let people know that it's on track.

[EDIT] I got the help I needed to get the tutorials sorted, although they still needed touching up after. Thanks goes to those that helped out.

Cheers for now.

Paul.


---- The Meridian Culmination ----
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Yarbles
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 00:26
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I'm looking forward to trying this.

It may bring me back to the DarkBasic API for, hopefully, more than just nostalgic reasons.
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DarkBasic Pro Guy
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 21:14
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If C# is really as easy to learn as BASIC, I'll have to learn C#!


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Niels Henriksen
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Posted: 5th Nov 2008 01:15
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@DarkBaisc Pro Guy

Then you should look at VB.NET.

Niels Henriksen
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if Microsoft can sell software with bugs, so can I.
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Jimmy 9 Toes
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Posted: 12th Nov 2008 19:24
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Let's don't forget this little beauty eh?
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Mason
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Posted: 13th Nov 2008 19:24
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Yeah no joke, I would love to have VB backed up by Dark Basic Commands. Would make level editors and/or any windows based gui programs amazing.


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Yoda Master
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Posted: 20th Nov 2008 11:34
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And we must don't forget that what makes a good language is not the language itself but the programmer who use it.

Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to suffering
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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 20th Nov 2008 12:52
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We are nearly there. Only a few minor points to sort. Closing in on release
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kBessa
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Posted: 20th Nov 2008 14:22
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Yay! That means... next newsletter it will be there?
I got start packaging my plugins.

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Niels Henriksen
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Then I will try to explain my wife that we need to cancel christmas.... becuase I want to code...

Niels Henriksen
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Gervais
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Posted: 20th Nov 2008 16:51
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I guest I know what I will be doing with the extra vacation days I have for the end of the year code code celebrate Christmas day then code code code then celebrate new year then code code

ho and mike is this the one with the new GDK that will be up to date with DBP7 or that will come at a later time
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DarkBasic Pro Guy
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Posted: 26th Nov 2008 03:03
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Look at the stickies, there is a November 2008 upgrade at the very top with the up to date with DBP7 version of DarkGDK.


DBRemake: Space Invaders
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sydbod
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Posted: 26th Nov 2008 09:37 Edited at: 26th Nov 2008 09:41
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Quote: "there is a November 2008 upgrade at the very top with the up to date with DBP7 version of DarkGDK."


That is news to most of us.

The November 2008 Upgrade is only a structural upgrade for the DGDK, (I believe) to make its library structure the same as that used in DBP, to make it easier to update all versions of the game library at the one time.

The November 2008 Upgrade of DGDK still has the old instructions with the inclusion of a very few new ones, and that is all. The DBP 7.0 instruction inclusions will probably be done at a later date.
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