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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Creating level for DBpro

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Bulleyes
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2002 16:57
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Hi,

I am a newbie in DarkBasicPro. I have some background in using Director 3D by Macromedia. I bought DBpro because I thought it is somewhat simillar to Director 3D.

1. I was wondering does a level in DBpro need to be in BSP format? Can I use .X, .3DS, .MD1, .MD2 format for creating a level?

2. How do I perform collision detection in DBpro. I need to detect collision of player against wall, floors, objects, enemies, etc. in a 3rd person shooter. There are some collision detection routines under the Basic 3D section, e.g. OBJECT COLLISION, etc. Can I use that for this purpose?

3. I had seen some samples came with DBpro demostrating world collision detection, e.g. using BSP COLLISION HIT, etc. Are those collision detection routine only workable for those level import as .BSP format?

4. Does anyone know how can I export .BSP file from MAX?

I know this is a lot of questions. Thanks in advance!
Thomas.
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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2002 18:24
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1. BSP, X and 3DS models are best suited for levels.

2. You can use the collision commands in Basic3D for handling object collisions.

3. The BSP collision commands are meant for Quake 2, Half Life, Quake 3 or DB Pros BSP maps.

4. If you export your level to the X format in Max you can then use the BSP compiler to compile to DB Pros custom BSP format and then load that map into DB Pro. Alternatively you can use editors like Worldcraft to create maps.

Mike
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Bulleyes
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Posted: 4th Nov 2002 07:30
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Thanks for your reply.

I was wondering, if I built the whole level in .X format, wouldn't it be very tedious and inefficient if I have to use to the Basic 3D collision detection to check collision of the player against the wall (and also other objects in the world)? As far as I know, the basic 3d collision detection is using bounding sphere, how accurate can this be?

Another thing is, if I create the entire level in MAX, then export it to .X, how do I refer individual object that I had created in DPpro. (I named each of the object in the level in MAX.)

thanks a lot!

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

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Lee Bamber
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 02:42
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BSP is always going to be your best bet until we write something better You can use a huge number of scene blocks with box collision, which is also effective though you would have to control your visibility system for rooms/curridors/etc. BSP calculates all this for you thus makes the best one stop shop for both speed and collision.

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 02:55
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1) You can use any one of the formats you named, but BSP is the easiest and fastest. It's been used in pretty much every first person shooter since Doom.
2) Yes you can use those functions, but you don't need to when you use BSPs. Not sure about the bounding sphere.
3) Yes, you can only use BSP collision functions on BSP maps.
4) You cannot export a BSP from max. A BSP has to be done in a BSP editor, ie-WorldCraft/Hammer
OR
You can make the level in max and try the X > BSP convertor provided with DBP.
5) Not really, because the whole model would be checked for collision, unless you split it into sections. The problem isn't tedious, the problem is speed.
6) I believe you can refer to the pieces of your model as limbs...

Lastly, welcome to DB!

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
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Matto
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 04:45
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does this mean there is a converter from .3ds to the DBP BSP type maps~? I wonder because this may save alot of problems for a project I am working on where I am trying to get good collision on a .3ds level object, I have tried the DB conv to get it changed to a .x file but if I could get it changed into a bsp map would the collision be inbuilt to the map? sorry I have no experience with bsp until now.. so I am not sure what is included as a converter or maker of DB BSP maps??? if at all..

thanks for any help

1ghz Cel,512 sdram 133,Gf2 MX 400 64,SBL 5.1,Win98
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Matto
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 04:48
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arg sorry raps just seen your post, not sure how I missed it but what does the converted .x to .bsp model include that is different from the .X, and when changing a model from a .3ds to .x to .bsp will the quality be changed?

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 05:15
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Alright, a quick explination of a BSP:

Pretty much every 3D engine uses a technique commonly referred to as the painters method. This means the engine orders all the polygons in the scene from back to front. It then draws the polys, from farthest to closest, so that closer polys appear over top farther polys, creating perspective. Unfortunatly, there are a few problems with this, which I won't get into now but the main problem is speed: The engine has to figure out what to draw first, what to draw last, etc. And a lot of time is wasted drawing polys that aren't even visible from a certain position. So the BASIC point of the BSP file is that it tells the engine which polys to draw, depending on the camera angle. This is much faster, and as a nice side effect, allows for fast and easy collision detection. More complex engines like Quake/Half-Life use BSP files that are compiled like so:

Process 1: CSG: Removing un-needed polys. Picture a submarine: From the inside, you can't see the outer hull, and you can't get outside because the interior is sealed. Kinda how BSP works. Because you will never be able to see that exterior polys, they are removed. That is why BSP's must be entirly sealed, or else the program won't be able to determine what is "inside" and what is "out".

Process 2: Making a Binary Space Partitioning Tree (A BSP)
A BSP basically gives the engine data, so it doesn't have to waste time on calculations.

Process 3: Vis: Calculates what is visible from where... I think

Process 4: Rad, or Lights. This takes all the lighting data and compiles it into the BSP, giving the Engine all the lighting info, again so the engine doesn't have to calculate it in real-time.

Of course, thats not exactly how it works, but I tried to put it in a way anyone could understand.
------
So, the quality of your map file is decreased, but it's for the better most of the time (By decreased I mean removing uneeded polys and the like)

The thing is, textures and lights are not calculated byt the included BSP convertor, from what I understand. Just CSG, and Vis I think.

Alex Wanuch
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Matto
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Posted: 16th Nov 2002 02:40
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well thats certainly clearer thank you, I supose a little messing around is in order to get things in perspective, thanks again..

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 16th Nov 2002 19:13
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NP

Alex Wanuch
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david
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Posted: 17th Nov 2002 18:13
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I have looked all over the posts on these forums searching for a link to a BSP creator, but all I have found is names of some - ie. Worldcraft.

Can someone please give me a link to a download page for Worldcraft or some other BSP creator (that will work with DarkBasic Pro).
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The Darthster
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Posted: 17th Nov 2002 21:21
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Here's a link:
http://www.downseek.com/download/8907.asp?
I got my copy off a PCGamer DVD, I think worldcraft is on the coverdisc(s) of most issues.
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EdzUp
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Posted: 17th Nov 2002 21:43
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There is a BSP creator thingy with DBPro but as of yet ive still to get it to work . I keep generating duff BSP's that dont load in anything.

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 18th Nov 2002 23:07
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go to any good search engine and search for Worldcraft!!!
Try searching for the Valve-ERC, that's a good place to try. But most sites just link back to fileplanet, so you might as well go get in line...

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
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Bulleyes
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2002 12:04
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Hmmm.... interesting...

It seems like BSP is good for those indoor maps. What if I had a space combat scenario that mixes both indoor and outdoor maps? For example, like in Star Wars, where the player can take part in space combat (outdoor maps) and flying into the Death Star (indoor maps).

Anybody has any good suggestion on collision in this scenario?

Thanks!

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
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pathfinder
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2002 14:16
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how are you supposed to create a lightmap if your importing a .x file? you dont have any light for a reference to create any light data

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actarus
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2002 15:20
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You are not supposed to use Worldcraft for anything other than testing purposes since from what I heard it's made to be used strictly with the Half-Life(maybe more) engines EVEN using Zoner's compile tools.

Try Cartography shop or wait for the upcomming 3d architect.

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Fireburst
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2002 17:02
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I would wait for patch4 to see what improvements will happen to bsp as a lot of modifications to the 3d pipeline in that patch are planned (patch4 not the upcoming patch3).

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2002 02:43
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If our using indoor and outdoor levels, use a combination of bsp and non bsp levels. And with db's convertor, lightmaps are not possible.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
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