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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] Discussing the shooting "feel" of FPSC

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wizard of id
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 19:58 Edited at: 10th Apr 2009 20:30
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Okay have some more to say.

Well as you pointed out being able to create levels like de-dust in FPSC is meaningless without features.

Well I would have to disagree with you yet again mostly because even as you put it lacks features you can make up for that in numerous ways other than complaining and moaning about some thing that is beyond your control.

Off hand level design music hud’s storylines comes to mind. Think about it this way.
What if valve used FPSC to make Half-life 1 with the default engine not modified in any way how would the game look and feel like. It would be different in every way from what was created with the original.

How good would the game be. Would it have been any less of a game just because it doesn’t have water or recoil or moving cars bikes quads or whatever you describe as basic features a game should have. Does a game or engine that has no gun recoil or water or for that matter ragdoll make it any less of a game or engine.

I hope you see reason in the argument to make a First Person Shooter game to qualify to be called a First Person Shooter game it has to meet a said criteria. You could google it.
You will be amazed how little is really needed to be called a FPS game. Once you have googled that come back and tell me if ragdoll or water or gun recoil forms part of that basic criteria. It does not fit in the basic criteria does it.?

Now that you see that you have every thing that you need to create a FPS game you should not be complaining or moaning about what you have.

There are ways to improve AI code your own scripts that allows AI to react quicker shorten the wait state have the AI line of sight increased so when you come around a corner the AI will be shooting at you already. Increase the damage the AI gives lessen the AI health or increase the health.

You can do many things with the current commands to improve AI by playing around with the current settings you should be able to tweak the values of the current set of AI scripts you have to work for you without having to code.

There is no longer an excuse the AI is dumb or slow reacting or this or that you have the tools you have every thing to improve FPSC at your finger tips.

Try the C4 engine or what ever engine you like and then try and code AI script in 10 or so lines that is more complex than FPSC?.

If you end up still complaining about some thing sorry you got the wrong engine then.

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Pride
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 20:53
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I find it hard to read and understand what you are saying WoI. Although it's difficult, I do understand what you are saying.

I have to say, the given AI in FPSC is terribly basic. But that's it, Lee and friends just gave you the basics; the bare bones so that YOU, the creator, could add-on to it.

Do you expect Lee and friends do do ALL the work? No.

Now I agree, there are a few things that are beyond difficult to fix without the source, but that's just it. You have a complete scripting engine and the actual source code at your disposal, why not use it?

What you can't code is probably what Ply implemented in his(her?) new mod. That mod is a true masterpiece and anyone without can quite frankly go to hell.

Now, the feel of FPSC is not that great, I agree. A heated fight scene in HL1 is pretty cool and taxing, but a fight scene cannot seem to get heated in FPSC.

But, in my head, most of that can be cured with simple scripting. Like lines of code that tell the enemy to shout random commands or etc. Even I can script that.

Imagination is what seems to be missing here. You can't get anywhere without first think of where you wan to go.

You know that pink, bloody thing in your head? Use it.


"March 1st 2009, 12:49pm, a 3 year struggle with cancer ends..."
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 21:40
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Half the suggestions here like player sound effects and such are things you can edit for yourself...

I've found using Cover10 in the main AI, and snipe10 in the shoot gives a semi-believable enemy. I personally am going for the more "Gears of War" type of enemy, that engages you with spectacular blood effects and fun gunplay rather than particularly marvellous AI...

Oh and Pride, brains are grey mate...I should know...

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a fishing rod, and he'll break it up into firewood...or swap it for a fish."
-Frankie Boyle, on Mock the Week
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Bugsy
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 22:46
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@ tosty fresh: I mean entities with static.fpi
Quote: "Bugsy, detect for static entities, in other words detect for level geometry. How's that work? Static entities are part of the level geometry and thus can't be detected."
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Bugsy
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 22:47
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or, just give them strafe.fpi for shoot and put them next to an object wider than they are possibly?
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Jingle Fett
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 23:40
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Quote: "Okay have some more to say.

Well as you pointed out being able to create levels like de-dust in FPSC is meaningless without features.

Well I would have to disagree with you yet again mostly because even as you put it lacks features you can make up for that in numerous ways other than complaining and moaning about some thing that is beyond your control.

Off hand level design music hud’s storylines comes to mind. Think about it this way.
What if valve used FPSC to make Half-life 1 with the default engine not modified in any way how would the game look and feel like. It would be different in every way from what was created with the original.

How good would the game be. Would it have been any less of a game just because it doesn’t have water or recoil or moving cars bikes quads or whatever you describe as basic features a game should have. Does a game or engine that has no gun recoil or water or for that matter ragdoll make it any less of a game or engine.

I hope you see reason in the argument to make a First Person Shooter game to qualify to be called a First Person Shooter game it has to meet a said criteria. You could google it.
You will be amazed how little is really needed to be called a FPS game. Once you have googled that come back and tell me if ragdoll or water or gun recoil forms part of that basic criteria. It does not fit in the basic criteria does it.?

Now that you see that you have every thing that you need to create a FPS game you should not be complaining or moaning about what you have.

There are ways to improve AI code your own scripts that allows AI to react quicker shorten the wait state have the AI line of sight increased so when you come around a corner the AI will be shooting at you already. Increase the damage the AI gives lessen the AI health or increase the health.

You can do many things with the current commands to improve AI by playing around with the current settings you should be able to tweak the values of the current set of AI scripts you have to work for you without having to code.

There is no longer an excuse the AI is dumb or slow reacting or this or that you have the tools you have every thing to improve FPSC at your finger tips.

Try the C4 engine or what ever engine you like and then try and code AI script in 10 or so lines that is more complex than FPSC?.

If you end up still complaining about some thing sorry you got the wrong engine then.
"


Here's the deal. The only way to make FPSC games stand out is through all that extra media. Basically everything except the gameplay because that is the one thing that is NOT up to the user. There is no source code for X10 as I recall, so we can't mod in whatever we want.

You draw that comparison to Half-life
Quote: "Would it have been any less of a game just because it doesn’t have water or recoil or moving cars bikes quads or whatever"

Yes it would be less of a game because that is what makes it Half-Life. If it didn't have that Half-Life feel, no matter how good the graphics are or any of that stuff, it simply wouldn't be half-life. And as to story, well with FPSC/X10, we are also slightly limited in that department since it's extremely difficult if not impossible to have real-time cutscenes and not everyone can make pre-rendered cutscenes.

Wizard of ID, you seem to be forgetting one thing. All those features aren't what make an FPS game and nobody has said that. They're what make an FPS game fun. If a game isn't fun, unless it is simply spectacular in almost every other category, then it simply isn't worth playing. The AI is important yes, but even having great AI doesn't actually do that much to the feel of the game. We're talking about identical scenarios in FPSC vs another game. And there is no way for the average user to get those extra features that make the other game special short of making a mod. So stop telling users to get off their asses and make this stuff because it is something we can't do.

Tell me so that I can do it, how do I by myself improve X10? What tools do I need to improve X10? What exactly is it I have at my fingertips that I can use to improve FPSC X10? Answer me that and I will retract my complaints.

Believe it or not, there are more people with imagination and creativity that you seem to believe. In fact imagination is not what's missing; if we could actually do what we imagine, there would be so many amazing games created on FPSC/X10.
My complaint isn't with the engine or the AI. It's with the fact that even the features X10 does have, there is no official documentation/support. And there's no way to correct a flaw if we see one.

I keep hearing about Ply's mod and how it greatly enhances the gameplay...
Let me know when it's available for X10. Because until then, the "feel" of X10 is not going to change and so your main arguments are simply not valid.

There are indeed things that we can do ourselves like music, player sounds etc. But the topic that's being discussed is not something that a regular user can change and while it might not apply entirely to FPSC because ply's mod and all the others are available and fix this, it most certainly applies to FPSC X10 because the gameplay feel is almost the same. And it is something that CANNOT be fixed by the users. Not without a patch or the source code anyways.

And by the way, one of the main reasons I'm debating on going over to C4 is because all scripting is node-based. You don't need to actually type anything, you create the scripts by dragging and dropping boxes and then connecting them. And you make custom shaders the exact same way and it's all integrated in the engine. So if it works or not you'll know in a few seconds.

Wizard of ID, just so you see that I'm not some random user complaining and so that you see what actually goes on in the X10 camp and what the users are actually doing, why don't you take a look at the X10 Community Forum? See what the users are doing with their time and then make your judgement.
http://www.fpsc-online.com/forum/

A picture says a thousand words.
--H.K.--
http://www.fpscx10-online.com/
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Claws
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 00:20 Edited at: 11th Apr 2009 00:20
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Wizard of id, i believe that was totally uncalled for. We are trying to maintain a good discussion about gameplay elements of the FPSC engine, and discussing how to improve them. That's the original reason of the thread, as you can see in my first post. If you are so immature to the point of calling people who don't agree with you "idiots", i believe that you don't have a place in this discussion. You should at least have some respect for the other members of this community, like Bugsy and me, and be polite.
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Nickydude
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 00:24
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Guys, I know you're trying to get your points across but you can see where this is heading. Please keep it respectful ok?



THE ANSWER TO ALL FPSC QUESTIONS!
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Jesper
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 00:47 Edited at: 11th Apr 2009 00:48
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Quote: "Lee has already added the airmod shotgun reload to the official FPSC and we'll see more airmod features in the migration version.
"


Thanks to god! I want Airmod, but it does not work on my computer.. I have asked about it many times whit no answer... even V 1,07 or 1,09 does not work on my computer, so i can't use any mods.. Why they don't do new mods to V 1.13??
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Dar13
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 00:49
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Quote: "Why they don't do new mods to V 1.13?? "

Because Lee hasn't released the V1.13 source and the source changes every version.

...
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Bugsy
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 01:10
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I want fpsc to come with the mods.
I also think it's stupid how I'm constantly scared to put more enemies because of lag and glitches. I don't get it how enemies in fpsc make it lag horribly, but on call of duty, they have literally unlimited numbers of enemies and It wont lag on my computer
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Wazoo117
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 03:05 Edited at: 11th Apr 2009 03:09
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False advertisement plays a big part in why people buy it, then wonder why its not the greatest thing in the world...

Sure, you can do the things that it mentions on the homepage, with scripting...

For instance - "Design your own first person shooter games
No coding required!"

Sure, you can design your own games, but to make them good, you have to do some minor programming...

It should say, "Minor coding required"

Don't get me wrong, it is a great engine, but some of the things it mentions are a little over the top for something that hasn't even been completely finished...

"There are very few problems in life that cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives"
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dumpus
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 03:27
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FPSC is not a professional game engine, but I think it is capable of professional games - just not out of the box.

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Pride
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 03:55
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WoI is a no crap kinda guy. I know this, he voices his mind. As do I, can't take the heat, get outta the fire.

@CG: Hey...I really like that combo! It makes my enemies pretty cool! Especially with Airmod blood...Oooo, I'm getting chills.


"March 1st 2009, 12:49pm, a 3 year struggle with cancer ends..."
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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 05:57
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Quote: "I want fpsc to come with the mods. "


The mods are made by users so including them would be kind of pointless.
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Errant AI
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 08:32
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Quote: "Quote: "I want fpsc to come with the mods. "

The mods are made by users so including them would be kind of pointless. "


Not really. Most of the modders want their additions to be added to official. I know both Airslide and Ply have sent generous amounts of their code to Lee. So, in a sense, code does fall from the sky.

Quote: "For instance - "Design your own first person shooter games
No coding required!"

Sure, you can design your own games, but to make them good, you have to do some minor programming..."


It doesn't say "Design your own high-quality first person shooter games
No coding required"

Just a couple quick things to add into the fray...

1. Yes it's totally fair to compare apples to oranges. Why? Because the end user (player) will. As will anyone reviewing a game. In the real world, a magazine writer will compare a "small" budget $3M game to a AAA $15M game. You can't expect follow the game around to everyone who uses it and remind them a budget engine was used and therefore the they must lower their expectations. So, fair-yes. or at least realistic, pointless- also yes.

2. Even if you have an end-all be-all engine at your disposal. As a designer, you will still be needing to find workarounds if you wish to push the envelope. If you are unwilling to script, code, find workarounds, etc. You must accept that you are not a game designer working with an engine but an end user playing a game called FPS Creator.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 09:48
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Quote: "Yes it would be less of a game because that is what makes it Half-Life. If it didn't have that Half-Life feel, no matter how good the graphics are or any of that stuff, it simply wouldn't be half-life. And as to story, well with FPSC/X10, we are also slightly limited in that department since it's extremely difficult if not impossible to have real-time cutscenes and not everyone can make pre-rendered cutscenes.

Wizard of ID, you seem to be forgetting one thing. All those features aren't what make an FPS game and nobody has said that. They're what make an FPS game fun."
I was afraid of that.

Again forget that half-life was ever made.How would you make half-life how would valve make the game with this engine.Taking into account that valve has a few million to spend on making models segments textures ect.

The point I was trying to get across was that you choose a engine for it's features.You need to research what you want.You don't try and fit your game around a engine.As with most developers they do their game design document before even choosing a engine.They might even set up a short candidate list of engines they might use.

I was working with the Game Studio A6 Pro this is a very good engine if it didn't have some thing you could code your own dll to suite your needs.In the end I got FPSC because I don't have that much time coding what I needed and FPSC is a quicker solution.

Now since I have FPSC there is a special case I do my design document that fits around the engine.



Quote: "Tell me so that I can do it, how do I by myself improve X10? What tools do I need to improve X10? What exactly is it I have at my fingertips that I can use to improve FPSC X10? Answer me that and I will retract my complaints"
Right now I'm looking at my copy of X10.I'm still not in the mood to use it.One day when I do use it again I'll send you a mail.(haven't used it since the fight way back in the beginning of the Year with Lee regarding the failed support)

Quote: "You should at least have some respect for the other members of this community, like Bugsy and me, and be polite."
Okay here is me doing polite. umhmh....er....I tried.

Quote: "WoI is a no crap kinda guy. I know this, he voices his mind. As do I, can't take the heat, get outta the fire."
Yeah well...*blush*


Quote: "1. Yes it's totally fair to compare apples to oranges. Why? Because the end user (player) will. As will anyone reviewing a game. In the real world, a magazine writer will compare a "small" budget $3M game to a AAA $15M game. You can't expect follow the game around to everyone who uses it and remind them a budget engine was used and therefore the they must lower their expectations. So, fair-yes. or at least realistic, pointless- also yes.
"
Gamers are in general very narrow minded and a simple glitch not even the engines fault can send them into a hissy fit...


Quote: "Wizard of ID, you seem to be forgetting one thing. All those features aren't what make an FPS game and nobody has said that. They're what make an FPS game fun."
A last statement what happens if you don't have your fun features as you would like to put it.How will the features you have now work for you, think about it, you even have glitches that can work for you.Have you ever tried to import a mesh that is hollow render it invisible place a light source in it and get directional light mapping?

Do you even understand the concept or how to do it in X9?

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http://w13.easy-share.com/1408971.html
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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 16:15
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Quote: "Not really. Most of the modders want their additions to be added to official. I know both Airslide and Ply have sent generous amounts of their code to Lee. So, in a sense, code does fall from the sky."


I guess I stand corrected then lol.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 16:28
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Well let us strengthen that point of view of mine. I’m back on the half-life issue. Here are some examples of how to get half-life to work to some extent much like the original.

In the first level you find your self in a train car. The level is split up in parts so you should have no problem with that. You should have no problem to make a horizontal lift entity in fact with a little work you should be able to make an entity that you can climb onto that follows a path drawn by you.

Because it is FPSC you have to do a little more work to understand how an entity works
with some thing like this. A lift in FPSC is one segment in size should you increase the size of the lift to say 4 or 6 segments the lift would only activate once your in the middle or near the middle of what is deemed the middle of that entity.

This means you would need to enclose the player to stick to that area for the duration of the ride. How do you go about doing some thing like this. One way would be to add an inverted mesh around the player or to add a normal mesh around the player and apply the cubeent.fx shader to the mesh without using any textures on purpose to render the mesh invisible.


Now with a little tweaking and good level design you should be able to do the first part of the level without any problems. The second part of the level requires a entity to walk up to the train car your in and open the door. You could do this by ending the level where the car stops and then load a new level where you have changed the car into a room segment with a door once the entity is in range can the door be opened with a trigger zone
The entity can then follow the path you have created to open the second door. Once inside the chamber do you end the level and load a new level where you trigger the second door to open.

Here you have numerous entities doing what they do follow paths enter triggers zones and interact with the player.

As you can see it is not very difficult to get the first level done. Without having to modify the engine in any way with your fun features.

Now I have all the time in the world to explain how you would go about making Half-life in FPSC.

As you can see by using a glitch in the engine I have made it possible to have a working level just like half-life would have.

I hope you come to understand why I’m defending the engine as much as I do. With a little understanding you should have no problem at all to have the engine work they way you want it to work.

Don’t get me wrong about saying you shouldn’t use mods every little bit helps. By all means if you can get an extra feature or two from using a mod that would help you go for it.

The point is that FPSC out of the box can make great games even to some extent some commercial if you do it correctly and fully understand what your engine can do and how problem areas can be overcome by combining short comings and knowledge.

Some times brute force is required to make some thing work the other time a gentle tweaking can get you the desired results.

The key is time and effort and knowledge.

Your complaining about X10 what makes X10 all that different from X9 there has been some improvement to graphics AI has been improved a bit some added features. By taking away the X10 graphics you are still left with X9 with a slight overhaul it is not all that different if you compare the two. There are some obvious changes made to collision detection AI huds graphics but they are not all that different they still compile a game the same way still uses the same segments still the same light mapping.

What is the excuse then really, other than the obvious being slower, taking longer to compile maps and handles segments and meshes differently to X9.

Are you oblivious to the fact that X9 and X10 is still the same engine with sections upgraded or improved there should be no reason why you can’t do the same in X9 as you would do in X10…

Then you really can’t blame X10 for your short comings or not understanding the engine.

The point is if I can figure "stuff" so can you!!!

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General Jackson
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 20:20
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um, i already have my own own enemy ai scripts, recoil is impossible.

Also, your enemys cant shoot around corners

My enemy script says stuff too.

So deal with it.

It is well that war is so terrible or we should grow too fond of it- Robert E Lee
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Robert F
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 21:08
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Quote: "um, i already have my own own enemy ai scripts"


do they hide behind stuff?


shes a brick HOUSE!
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Mr Love
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 21:12
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I agree with Claws here! Sure with a lot of work You can make an ok game in FPSC, but because of the wrong size bounding-boxes alot of the fun gets spoiled. The bounding-boxes are alot bigger than the Characters, and try to shoot a meter/yard away from the enemy, Its still a bloody hit in the air.. (Almost impossible to miss!)
-Not sure if You can do this today, but all waypoints shourld have numbers so You courld attach a script for every waypoint, that wourld make the Enemys look/act more Human, and also change tactics after the environment...


"Right Man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world"
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Jingle Fett
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 22:19 Edited at: 11th Apr 2009 22:24
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Quote: "
Quote: "Tell me so that I can do it, how do I by myself improve X10? What tools do I need to improve X10? What exactly is it I have at my fingertips that I can use to improve FPSC X10? Answer me that and I will retract my complaints"
Right now I'm looking at my copy of X10.I'm still not in the mood to use it.One day when I do use it again I'll send you a mail.(haven't used it since the fight way back in the beginning of the Year with Lee regarding the failed support)
"


By saying that you admit the very point I am making, and it also lowers the validity of your points. You don't use X10 therefore you don't have any experience with it therefore you don't have experience with any of the problems that comes with the dirty use of X10. We've been pouting about the failed support (I'm guilty of the pouting and complaining as well). Do you know what the difference between you and me is? Unlike you, I didn't set down my copy of X10. I continued to use it despite all the problems. You on the other hand didn't do the very thing you're telling us to do. So like I said, you've just disqualified your own arguments.

Quote: "
Are you oblivious to the fact that X9 and X10 is still the same engine with sections upgraded or improved there should be no reason why you can’t do the same in X9 as you would do in X10…"


It is you who are the oblivious one otherwise you'd know that there are in fact things that you can do in X9 that you can't do in X10. Prolonged use of X10 reveals that.

Quote: "
Then you really can’t blame X10 for your short comings or not understanding the engine.

The point is if I can figure "stuff" so can you!!!"


Are you saying I haven't figured out stuff in X10? You are truly making a fool out of yourself, do your research before making statements like that. The reason you are making a fool of yourself Wizard of ID is because you are quite plainly wrong. I have the evidence to back it up.If you you are too lazy to take a look around, I can provide you with several links. If you want me to post them here, I will. When you can do what I've done in X10, then we can talk. I do and have every right to blame X10 as much as I want. Believe me I know the X10 engine better than most and I can say confidently most certainly better than you. That is why I can blame it.
Also, I believe I already stated X10 and X9 are almost the same engine when I said that that is why this "shooting feel" a problem with X10. They are at the core the same engine and so have the same shooting feel in both engines. The shooting feel can be changed in X9 via modding. Not so with X10, which is why it is a problem.

A picture says a thousand words.
--H.K.--
http://www.fpscx10-online.com/
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xplosys
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 23:01
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I wish I had enough experience to get involved in this conversation, though I'm too busy working on a game anyway. I just wanted to point out that...

Quote: "If you are unwilling to script, code, find workarounds, etc. You must accept that you are not a game designer working with an engine but an end user playing a game called FPS Creator.

Errant AI
"


is by far the most pointed, true and telling quote that I have ever read on the forum, and it should go down in TGC history.

Best.

fpsFREE - Contact Me
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Wazoo117
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 23:48
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Nice, xplosys

"There are very few problems in life that cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives"
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wizard of id
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 23:51
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Quote: "Believe me I know the X10 engine better than most and I can say confidently most certainly better than you"
lol are you willing to take a bet on that.?

But yeah what ever.Who was the first person to get MP6 working with shaders I might add with some limited success. Who got MP3 working who figured out that centering meshes and then editing the segments and saving them fixed the misplacement of walls and other MP3 segments.

Who took the time to inform the rest of the forum of those finds.

Your sadly mistaken if you think the little knowlege you know is more than what I know and shared with the rest of the forum members.


I'm willing to bet a few members would back me up here.?You started the I'm smarter than you now I will end it...

Have you seen the segments I have created in the last few weeks and given away for free.How about the mesh pack I have given away.

I can afford to have a big ego about knowlege I worked my butt off to get it in the first place.

I'm sure or rather I'm positive there is some one here smarter than me but your not one of them.

Quote: "You don't use X10 therefore you don't have any experience with it therefore you don't have experience with any of the problems that comes with the dirty use of X10. We've been pouting about the failed support (I'm guilty of the pouting and complaining as well). Do you know what the difference between you and me is? Unlike you, I didn't set down my copy of X10. I continued to use it despite all the problems. You on the other hand didn't do the very thing you're telling us to do. So like I said, you've just disqualified your own arguments."
I never said I didn't use it I order the product a day or two after the release and used the copy ever since till the beginning of this year with regards to the support issue that is nearly a active year of using the product.Because of that fall out and most of it didn't happen in that thread I sent a few emails to Lee with regards to problems with X10.Among other things I have send a few emails with regards to collision detection and culling problems among other things.So don't be so quick to judge me for not using X10.I have my reasons for not using X10 and I'm not willing to tell you why as it is personal and between me and Lee.

All I can say it came down to me using the option of legal action.
Quote: "
It is you who are the oblivious one otherwise you'd know that there are in fact things that you can do in X9 that you can't do in X10. Prolonged use of X10 reveals that."
Lol and x10 can do things X9 can't come on this the best you can do.

Quick question long have you used X9? Do you even have a copy.What is worst is that you try and make you argument on weak points in my argument which is normal that is what you do in debating.That is a sign of weakness that you can't debate the stronger points or lack the knowlege to do so.

Quote: "The shooting feel can be changed in X9 via modding. Not so with X10, which is why it is a problem."
*shakes head* why don't you use X9 like I do.?

What is sad that you have to resort to "I'm smarter than you" complex.

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Wazoo117
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 23:54
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Ok, I think this thread needs to be locked now...

"There are very few problems in life that cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives"
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Jingle Fett
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 00:44 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 00:55
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You say whatever you like. You're obviously not going to change your mind about anything, even if I did show you stuff I've made and the stuff I've accomplished with X10. Believe it or not, you're not the only one who has worked their butt off with FPSC. You continue to make a fool of yourself by insulting my knowledge of X10 (of which some memers of the forum are also aware of) and I see no point of wasting my time any further. Hopefully you will realize that some people's lives don't revolve around these forums and are much more interested in actually making a good game rather than making something just to show on the forums or arguing pointlessly. I wasn't the one who started the mud slinging and I've wasted enough time here...I've said my part, I bid this topic hasta lugeo.

A picture says a thousand words.
--H.K.--
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Claws
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 01:18
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I ask the moderators to kindly lock this thread. Wizard of Id destroyed the thread subject while trying to show that he's the best and he's the only person that ever achieved good results in FPSC. Unfortunately, we are never able to achieve decent discussions on this forum due to the immature actions of certain members.
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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 01:26
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I'm with Errant's quote. I never bought FPSC to make loads of money off it. I just thought It'd be a lot of fun. And it is. To this day I still haven't successfully finished a full game, I just like to make little levels and run around shooting things, sometimes experimenting with different weapons, etc.

I still only buy Errant's guns because they're well made and a lot of fun to play with and such.

FPSC is a great program to give you some idea on soft-core scripting, modeling and all that. I mean, god, some people have called my models professional quality, and yet I'm still playing around with what could almost be a kid's game engine. If anyone ever thought they could buy a fifty dollar piece of software made by a couple people and make the next half-life, they're completely demented to be honest.

In my honest opinion, FPSC should still be in it's beta stages. X10 might be a bit better, although I've never used it, but FPSC might, if it's lucky, might be able to make a game comparable to a very old game such as, I dunno, GoldenEye for the Nintendo 64, but it's deinately not advanced enough to make anything better.

I will treat FPSC as a half-decent dev kit when it has some actual modern day stuff; name HDR lighting, the ability to have huge, open, exciting battle scenes, and crap like that.

But TGC are not flipping Microsoft. They're only a small company with a small budget, and the way I see it that version of FPSC I was just talking about will never come.


Just throwin' it out there.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Bugsy
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 01:29
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aww, this is by far my favorite thread. we don't need to listen to wizard of id.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 04:10
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FPSC is a better 'engine' than Quake 3, Half Life or Unreal. Just because the gameplay is better in those games than a typical FPSC game doesn't mean the engine as a whole is worse.

The graphics achievable in FPSC surpasses all of these engines, the scripting language like Unreal allows the user to change every element of the game from entity properties to enemy AI and scripted events. Even the controls can now be experienced through an xbox 360 controller.

If you took FPSC, added Errant AI's guns, Bond1's characters, Xplosys scripts, environments from someone like Ertlov and a bunch of high quality entities and shaders from around the forums you would have something better than games produced with those engines.

We are all learning how to get the most of FPSC X9 / X10 and I don't believe any of us can say we're superior as we are all learning all of the time. The fact of the matter is without FPSC very few of us would be making a first person shooter at all, let alone with the quality achievable with FPSC.

How far you take a game in regards to getting it published and receiving commercial success is down to you.
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xplosys
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 04:23
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Quote: "The fact of the matter is without FPSC very few of us would be making a first person shooter at all, let alone with the quality achievable with FPSC."


WOW! Another quote of quotes! How very true that is.

Quote: "If you took FPSC, added Errant AI's guns, Bond1's characters, Xplosys scripts, environments from someone like Ertlov and a bunch of high quality entities and shaders from around the forums"


Thanks for the mention, but if you want high quality scripts, look to Plystire and Conjured Entertainment.

Best.

fpsFREE - Contact Me
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Bugsy
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 04:42
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Quote: "If you took FPSC, added Errant AI's guns, Bond1's characters, Xplosys scripts, environments from someone like Ertlov and a bunch of high quality entities and shaders from around the forums""


Imma go do just that.

otherwise, I've always believed that in fpsc, if you can make a good map, (or totally rip one off from a game) and incorperate clever cover spots and puzzles, then youre fine.

if you can dream it, you can do it.

oh, and I think eai's guns, jfletcher's characters, and my workaround guide, you'd have a purty good game (jfletcher's characters for street shooters)
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Pride
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 05:47
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Quote: "recoil is impossible."



Airmod, anyone?

I do agree, this thread has gone down a hole but that shouldn't stop it's life. I also agree that some members of this forum are just pricks but WoI is not one of them. He's the only piece of brutal humanity left.

"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic" or something along those lines quoted from Butters.

Some people just need to suck it up. WoI makes up the 10% of the population who isn't hiding behind nice words. Don't bash on people like that. WoI is not nearly as bad as Higgins, although there's only a fine line.

Back on topic.........

I think this thread should continue to live, we need to forget all the flaming that's happened here.

I agree w/ Toasty.

Quote: "I never bought FPSC to make loads of money off it. I just thought It'd be a lot of fun. And it is. To this day I still haven't successfully finished a full game, I just like to make little levels and run around shooting things"

I couldn't agree more.

Ply's Mod makes FPSC so much more awesome, it's not funny. The mass amounts of commands, improvements, etc. he (she?) added just amazes me!!!

You either adore FPSC of you effing hate it, there's no in-between.


"March 1st 2009, 12:49pm, a 3 year struggle with cancer ends..."
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Claws
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 06:42 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 06:45
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Toasty Fresh, i didn't bought FPSC with a commercial project in mind. All of my projects are future free games, not commercial ones. I'm passionate about making games, not earning money with them. And that's exactly why i created this thread: i wanted to discuss the shooting feel of the FPSC Engine, which is the major problem with the engine. By discussing it with other game creators, maybe we could come out with a few workarounds, ideas, and suggestions for Lee and the other guys. However, the only thing we were able to come with was a silly immature flamewar.

FPSC IS a pretty decent engine. The segment building system gives you a lot of freedom and, most importantly, fast-deployment of assets and structures. (oh, if we just could, for example, build segments real-time based on primitives and paint textures them real-time... but that's a complete different thread)

The overall results with the engine are amazing. You can see that i mentioned this before even starting my thread. But, unfortunately, some guys didn't get the whole picture. FPSC is amazing. It has great graphics, decent physics and features a complete framework for fast game development, allowing us to focus on gameplay and media development.

The problem lies when we focus on gameplay. FPS Creator has evolved in graphics (we can see that the main TGC focus on the FPSC product is graphics, because of the X10 release) but still has a very primitive AI and gameplay elements. That could be fixed (a work-around, to be honest) if we were able to create decent multiplayer games with FPSC, but the Arena games are way too buggy for a final release.

You have mentioned TGC budget... well, we are not asking for AGEIA Physics implementation or an expensive AI engine. We are asking for bug fixes, decent implementation of the DarkLIGHTS system, as well the DarkAI. Also, DarkSHADER (if shaders work perfectly on it, why they can't work on FPSC? I don't believe this would cost millions for TGC). All of them are TGC products. There's also the excellent and new DarkVOICES.

The other features we are asking for are also simple features. I would be more than happy if 50% of Ply's Mod features were added to the vanilla engine. There are so many small elements that are overlooked by TGC staff... camera movements, gun recoil, damage penalty for running/jumping. And please, don't flame about gun recoil and damage penalties. I managed to add such features to the Quake3 Arena source without having advanced coding skills.

I don't care, and i believe that you guys also don't, about HDR rendering and modern graphic features. Bump-mapping is enough. And FPSC has all of that, if TGC fixed the existing bugs. And i also don't care about the inability of having great outdoors. We can make an entire game without the need of outdoors, and still have a pretty high-quality game.

Quote: "The graphics achievable in FPSC surpasses all of these engines, the scripting language like Unreal allows the user to change every element of the game from entity properties to enemy AI and scripted events. Even the controls can now be experienced through an xbox 360 controller.

If you took FPSC, added Errant AI's guns, Bond1's characters, Xplosys scripts, environments from someone like Ertlov and a bunch of high quality entities and shaders from around the forums you would have something better than games produced with those engines."


Exactly. But the game would suck. Why? Because core-engine features, and some very simple ones, were overlooked by TGC and, without the actual updated source, we can't implement them. The only thing holding me back from getting the source and implementing all features i need is the fact that the source is pretty buggy and the 1.07/1.09 version of the editor is very unstable.

Just a quick link that should interest you all:
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/fpscsource
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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 07:23
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Let's put it this way; If FPSC was made and TGC had a team and budget equal to that of ValvE's, it would be far better than it is now. However, TGC don't have that. While they don't it's never gonna get any better.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Claws
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 10:25 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 10:27
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Toasty Fresh, it's not about implementing expensive and top-market features, it's about implementing basic features and, most importantly, fixing bugs. Also, FPSC could be heavily improved if TGC implemented the new versions of the following products into the FPSC code:

* DarkShader (for better shader support and fixing actual FPSC shader bugs)
* DarkNet
* DarkLights
* DarkPhysics
* DarkAI
* DarkVOICES compatibility

These are products developed by TGC and i believe that implementing them into the FPS Creator would be a matter of time, not money. And, if implemented, we would be talking about a pretty powerful and stable engine (of course, with the so needed bug fixes).

I also believe that the developers of Air Mod, S4 Mod, Ply's Mod, Lemur and EFX would be more than interested in helping TGC fix bugs and implement new features based on their work. They could even work as freelancers to speed up the project.
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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 10:38
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Quote: "Toasty Fresh, it's not about implementing expensive and top-market features, it's about implementing basic features and, most importantly, fixing bugs. Also, FPSC could be heavily improved if TGC implemented the new versions of the following products into the FPSC code: "


I know, but it sure as hell would help if they had a larger budget. For example, when ValvE made HL1, I wonder what would have happened if they had the same budget as TGC do now? It'd be a very sucky game and possibly still in development.

Quote: "These are products developed by TGC and i believe that implementing them into the FPS Creator would be a matter of time, not money."


You are wrong. It is a matter of time. TGC is working on the migration now. And if it comes out this year, I swear to god that I will repeatedly eat hat after hat until no more hats remain.

Quote: "I also believe that the developers of Air Mod, S4 Mod, Ply's Mod, Lemur and EFX would be more than interested in helping TGC fix bugs and implement new features based on their work."


Well, the ROF, fixed shotgun stuff etc. was all made by Airslide. I could imagine Ply helping out, also S4, Urlforce probably wouldn't as he vowed to never work on an FPSC mod again or something, and trying to get some of the Helix devs to work cooperatively with others would be like trying to drag the moon a few meters with a piece of elastic.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Claws
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 11:21
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Well... not so sucky, since they used the QuakeWorld engine for developing GoldSrc. QuakeWorld was pretty full-featured at that time.

Quote: "You are wrong. It is a matter of time. TGC is working on the migration now. And if it comes out this year, I swear to god that I will repeatedly eat hat after hat until no more hats remain."


I remember reading in the forums or in the newsletter that they didn't started the migration yet. They are still fixing the enormous list of bugs in FPSC X9 and X10. I'm certain that, if they released the 1.14/1.15 source code to the community, we could help in the development phase by reporting bugs and also fixing minor or even major bugs, as well implementing new features.
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Errant AI
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 11:53 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 11:58
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Quote: "The only thing holding me back from getting the source and implementing all features i need is the fact that the source is pretty buggy and the 1.07/1.09 version of the editor is very unstable."


That sounds like a pretty lazy argument/excuse to me. The 1.07 and 1.09 editors seem quite stable to me... Yes there were loads of problems with the 1.07 source but the modders have overcome them through will and perseverance and have also fixed a number of other longstanding bugs possibly still present in the official versions such as some audio and lighting issues. Really all something like Ply's Mod is missing now is headshots (*cough*cough* MOD contest winner pls pick this LOL) and I am 100% certian, Airslide or Ply could develop a better, more robust, headshot system, in their sleep, vs. what is found in official.

I can find no fault with TGC or Lee for having gone the route they have considering the finite number of man-hours they can spend each year on development. I mean, are there really any other programmers assigned to FPSC other than Lee who is responsible for so many other TGC products as well? Having modders develop things is a total force-multiplier (even if only a fraction of their efforts are donated) but even so there is only so much time to be devoted to integration, testing, etc. The fact they make the source available -at all- and for FREE is simply amazing to me. TGC has provided an excellent foundation for this community to build upon.

In the time you spend waiting for the 1.14/1.15, think how much you might be able to accomplish AirMod itself, which addresses 99% of the concerns of the topic OP is even open-source so any modder can implement it into their mod.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 12:05 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 12:22
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Quote: "You have mentioned TGC budget... well, we are not asking for AGEIA Physics implementation or an expensive AI engine. We are asking for bug fixes, decent implementation of the DarkLIGHTS system, as well the DarkAI. Also, DarkSHADER (if shaders work perfectly on it, why they can't work on FPSC? I don't believe this would cost millions for TGC). All of them are TGC products. There's also the excellent and new DarkVOICES."


Dude I'm not going to say it again plugins cost money are you going to pay lee to have these plugins installed.I can't see for what ever reason why all these plugins will be added for free?

Quote: "I do agree, this thread has gone down a hole but that shouldn't stop it's life. I also agree that some members of this forum are just pricks but WoI is not one of them. He's the only piece of brutal humanity left.

"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic" or something along those lines quoted from Butters.

Some people just need to suck it up. WoI makes up the 10% of the population who isn't hiding behind nice words. Don't bash on people like that. WoI is not nearly as bad as Higgins, although there's only a fine line"
.Sadly I have given up to try and explain to people just as hard headed as me.

Quote: "
aww, this is by far my favorite thread. we don't need to listen to wizard of id."
But if you do, take some contraceptive precautions as you might learn some thing and we don't want that, do we.
Quote: "
The other features we are asking for are also simple features. I would be more than happy if 50% of Ply's Mod features were added to the vanilla engine. There are so many small elements that are overlooked by TGC staff... camera movements, gun recoil, damage penalty for running/jumping. And please, don't flame about gun recoil and damage penalties. I managed to add such features to the Quake3 Arena source without having advanced coding skills.

I don't care, and i believe that you guys also don't, about HDR rendering and modern graphic features. Bump-mapping is enough. And FPSC has all of that, if TGC fixed the existing bugs. And i also don't care about the inability of having great outdoors. We can make an entire game without the need of outdoors, and still have a pretty high-quality game"
If you took the time to read or understand my ramblings I said by all means use what ever mod you want I insist that you use a mod if it improves your game.

I'm not fighting against using mods or adding features to the engine that improves the shooting feel of the current FPSC.

I'm fighting with some people because they feel that FPSC is substandard just because it lacks a simple features as gun recoil.

In all fairness we might have gotten of on the wrong foot. Sadly you don’t seem to care.
You have your mind set on FPSC should have or don’t have that will make it a truly great piece of software.

I don’t blame you for that I never said FPSC shouldn’t have gun recoil or you shouldn’t
use mods. I was making the point that FPSC doesn’t need those features to still be able to make a successful game with FPSC. Is it really that hard to understand. There are people
who feel that FPSC does need those features to be able to make a successful game. Fine if you feel that FPSC needs those features before you are able to make a successful game or as some one put it fun.

I’m going to make a statement and then ask a question. Lee has developed this piece of software in his mind and with his ideas of what a First Person Shooter game engine should look like.

The question is this how much research have you done before buying FPSC.? If you have done proper research and looked around on the forums wouldn’t you have found that FPSC has many bugs or has limited features.

Would you have gotten this software if you knew there were so many problems?

In the beginning some of the members here would not know about we had to wait nearly a year or so before getting the first update for FPSC and these updates were minor bug fixes like being able to build 50 levels. The days were there were only 2 model packs available to choose from no one even heard of FPSC Mods in fact Airslide was still thinking about using FPSC source and was still messing around with scripts the first version of signs was still being developed there was no entity work shop or lemur.

Bloom and weapons with arms was still a pipe dream. The complaints back then was about the lack of support once the updates came out people started wanting more features
FPSC first notable feature was when part of the darklights plugin was installed.
There was also a few members trying to add new media to FPSC some on these members are still here sadly some of them have left. They helped to improve FPSC some what.

If you compare what we had back then to now we are spoilt rotten. Sadly one thing didn’t
change we are still complaining and moaning about some thing we can do our self now which we couldn’t back then.

I hope some of the older members look back to the good ole days and see how far we have come.

Just a little bit of history.

Now back to the future.

Now some here say that FPSC can be matched to older engine like quake 3 engine or unreal yes it can be matched and FPSC is on some aspects better than those engines.

But would you agree that no one hardly ever uses those engines any more the only truly die hard of fans. In general gamers move forward not backward when buying games they rather have the next block buster id 20 engine game than buy a game made with the first unreal engine. However not every one can afford the latest and greatest hardware to run those games so there is still market for games made with older engines.

However those markets for lower end market is slowly dwindling as hardware becomes less expensive to make and more affordable. If FPSC wants to make it in that sense it has to move a lot faster to stay ahead or move forward at a fast enough pace to keep up with all the new features that developers are popping out left right and center to make it to some extent possible to have some chance of commercial success in future.

This however is happening at a snails pace and when we do get that neat features we all have been hoping for to improve the shooting feel of FPSC it will be out dated which it is slowly drowning in its own pool of code.

The migration version doesn’t hold a lot of hope to improve the shooting feel of FPSC at least in the first few versions. But it might be too late then. As the new windows version is on our door step as well as DirectX 11 also Microsoft stopping XP support.

I don’t see much hope in general that we will ever reach developers heaven soon or improve the shooting feel of FPSC.

Maybe it’s just me being me hard headed and all.

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Claws
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 14:50
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Quote: "Dude I'm not going to say it again plugins cost money are you going to pay lee to have these plugins installed.I can't see for what ever reason why all these plugins will be added for free?"


He's the owner of The Game Creators, which is the company responsible for the mentioned plugins. I'm absolutely sure that implementing those plugins into FPSC would not cost Lee any money. Please, Wizard, pay attention to what you are saying.

Quote: "I was making the point that FPSC doesn’t need those features to still be able to make a successful game with FPSC. Is it really that hard to understand."


That's in your opinion. Why is it so hard for you to understand that people have different opinions?

Quote: "The question is this how much research have you done before buying FPSC.? If you have done proper research and looked around on the forums wouldn’t you have found that FPSC has many bugs or has limited features.

Would you have gotten this software if you knew there were so many problems?"


Wait a minute... are you somehow saying that, if a software has bugs or lacks features, it will stay bugged and lacking features? Have you ever considered the fact that FPS Creator is a product and, in order to stay in the market, new features and fixes must be released on a regular basis? C'mon, dude, listen to yourself.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that the engine is not perfect and that improvements ARE possible, and can be implemented?
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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 16:09
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Quote: "That's in your opinion. Why is it so hard for you to understand that people have different opinions? "


You are being completely ignorant of this. It is not *impossible* to make a quality game with FPSC. I have three letters for you to look up: ELE. This game looks VERY good, %100 custom media and it sure as hell doesn't look like it was made with FPSC.

Quote: "Wait a minute... are you somehow saying that, if a software has bugs or lacks features, it will stay bugged and lacking features?"


Guuurgh... Every program ever concieved, as long as it exists, will remain to have bugs and glitches. Especially FPSC. It would be completely impossible to get TGC to remove EVERY SINGLE BUG from FPSC.

Quote: "Why is it so hard for you to accept that the engine is not perfect and that improvements ARE possible, and can be implemented?"


If wizard thinks that, then he's stupider than all of my cousins put together. And I doubt anyone could be that stupid. I'm pretty sure that he's aware that this program has it's limitations.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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wizard of id
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 16:41
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Quote: "He's the owner of The Game Creators, which is the company responsible for the mentioned plugins. I'm absolutely sure that implementing those plugins into FPSC would not cost Lee any money. Please, Wizard, pay attention to what you are saying."
Your not understanding what I'm saying.Each plugin that Lee has made costs money how many FPSC users are there that will use the plugins.Now because Lee gave the plugins away as in free and have not charged any money for it and the price of FPSC stayed the same and did not increase to compensate for the plugins.FPSC is a product running a loss instead of profit.

Or do you understand maths

a 50 dollar engine with 200 dollar plugins that equals to 150 dollar loss.Do you want it in klingon as well....???

Quote: "If wizard thinks that, then he's stupider than all of my cousins put together. And I doubt anyone could be that stupid. I'm pretty sure that he's aware that this program has it's limitations."
Well the other day I checked if the box FPSC came in could fly your right it does have limitations and I'm very well aware of those.Having the limitation work for you is what claws doesn't seem to understand.

I even explained how a glitch can work for you.But he/it whatever claws wants to call him/her self is completely oblivious to those facts and completely misunderstands me turns and twists my words.

Hence I referred to him being an idiot....Now I'm going to call him
moronic babbling idiot.

Yeah claws pay attention in school don't forget to take that contraceptive precaution we don't wont your mind to overload and spill the idiocy on every one else.

Gee I have lowered my self to insults and it feels good I guess I have lost the will power to argue.I guess I'm done now.*crawls up into a fetus position and starts laughing hysterically* RBRBRBR

Pointless Assault video
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Bugsy
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 16:58
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personally, imma start from my last post:

@ all the stuff you all complain about being supported: It's coming, it's not like they'll just stop making it. Eventually their would be a need for it, and all of you will be complaining, and they'll put it in fpsc.

@ wizard of id: i like you, but if no one else does, than they dont need to listen to you. you don't mind writing a long, well thought out posts and assessing our concerns, but claws and I are most certainly not idiots. we are smart and want to be respected and come out of this thread with our dignity intact. so stop calling us idiots.

@ all of you complaining about the buggyness of 1.07/1.09: this is why i stick with simple v1.00 (or 1.03 if i'm needing the 10 scripts)
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Claws
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 16:59 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 17:03
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Quote: "You are being completely ignorant of this. It is not *impossible* to make a quality game with FPSC. I have three letters for you to look up: ELE. This game looks VERY good, %100 custom media and it sure as hell doesn't look like it was made with FPSC."


Does ELE have enemies with AI and actual combat? No. It uses the strong parts of the FPSC engine that i already mentioned and leaves the bad, which is actual FPS combat. You guys are completely losing the subject of the thread. Please, read my first post again. And again.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to make a good game, i'm saying that there are a lot of cons in the actual engine and a total lack of simple features that would make the engine better.

Quote: "Your not understanding what I'm saying.Each plugin that Lee has made costs money how many FPSC users are there that will use the plugins.Now because Lee gave the plugins away as in free and have not charged any money for it and the price of FPSC stayed the same and did not increase to compensate for the plugins.FPSC is a product running a loss instead of profit."


Erm... dude... He won't be giving the plugins away for free, since the FPSC-Game would be compiled for FPSC customers. The only thing available would be a plain executable, not the plugin sources. Please, do you even know how the plugins work on DBPro?

FPSC already uses the DarkLights product and he's not giving it away for free. You have to buy DarkLights in order to compile the FPSC-Game source. Seriously, pay attention to what you are saying before making any ridiculous statements.
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Errant AI
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 17:04 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 17:16
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Quote: "FPSC is a product running a loss instead of profit.a 50 dollar engine with 200 dollar plugins that equals to 150 dollar loss."


It might actually be a good gamble for TGC. Think of FPSC-FREE edition, for example. I'd think they could have a clever way to have the extra stuff dormant somehow but you pay to activate the modules like the build upgrade.

Even if it were all active it might still be a good gamble because it would make it a more attractive product and for better or worse, I think in many ways FPSC is becoming a gateway vehicle to the Game Creator Store which is where the TGC profit potential truly lies. It's not really lost revenue if FPSC users are not likely to buy those DBP components otherwise. Somebody would likely still need to buy all of those components in order to successfully compile the code to make a source mod.

Of course, once all of that was squared away people would complain" WHY DOES FPSC NOT HAVE BASIC FEATURES LIKE 3RD PERSON AND VEHICLES?!?!?!" LOL it's like the old joke about the guy who had a bad muffler paid 500 bucks to fix it then heard all of these other problems with the car so he had to spend another 500 to buy louder speakers
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wizard of id
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 17:39 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 17:40
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Quote: "i'm saying that there are a lot of cons in the actual engine and a total lack of simple features that would make the engine better"
Then I said you don't need those features to make a good game and it got sidetracked lol guilty as charged!!

On the topic of this thread I'm sticking to my first comment.
You don't need those features to make a good game but the sure as hell they would help.


Quote: "It's not really lost revenue if FPSC users are not likely to buy those DBP components otherwise"


I know that,however the full darklights isn't active only parts directional light mapping spot light mapping and other types of light mapping is missing.That gave me the idea the of how unlikely it is Lee will do it free or charged.

The other bit I left out I did question Lee if other types of light mapping will be added.He clearly stated that it is not in future plans for this product version...

Now if you draw your own conclusions on that it would seem unlikely that we will see other plugin additions in this products version or the migration version.Perhaps in other products releases other than X9 X10 or migration version.

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Errant AI
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Posted: 12th Apr 2009 17:47 Edited at: 12th Apr 2009 17:53
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Quote: "The other bit I left out I did question Lee if other types of light mapping will be added.He clearly stated that it is not in future plans for this product version..."


It's understandable. I don't know much about it but I can imagine the FPSC framework can only bear so much. I might be mistaken but I could swear it's been mentioned that some of the core components of the DPB plugins are licensed to TGC (not owned by them or otherwise rebranded under the Dark label) and would be legally incompatable with FPSC's licensing.

Really, this topic was resolved by the 14th post

Quote: "Perhaps in other products releases other than X9 X10 or migration version."


I've said it before but I'll say it again... I'd love to see an advanced version of FPSC in the $150 range to compete better with some of the other inde-class engines while keeping the current version as an entry-level, Silent Walk killer.
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