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Dark GDK / Dark GDK, False sense of hope?

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wickedly kick it
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 20:43
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As i study more and more about c++ i start to understand some of how its ALOT better than Dark Basic Pro. I think its great to get some c++ experience under my belt, but does learning to use dark gdk spoil me if i wanted to get a job in game programming? I understand that in dark gdk you must use c++ styling, but with a real game engine made in the industry workplace make it this easy?

Thanks,
Wicked

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Pilz X Schizo
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 21:13
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I'm sure alot of people have differnt opinions on this subject. My personal opinion is that with DarkGDK you can create something of equal quality as anything on the market right now, though you would need the programming know-how to acomplish such a feat. Its all in the programmer, their experience and knowlage in creating fast and efficent code. As to if it will spoil you? It probably will but it takes alot of the DirectX overhead of game programming out of the picture, and if you know how to code then you can make very high quality games with this GDK. If you intend to get into the Game Programming Industry and not be freelance then this is a good way to get into it, though you would probably have to move on to move advanced things in C++/DirectX to have much hope of getting hired into any Game Company.
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AndrewT
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 22:06
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Quote: "but with a real game engine made in the industry workplace make it this easy?"


That depends. Some people would say that DGDK is way easier than any other C++ game dev tool. But in some ways it actually makes game dev more difficult. For instance most commercial game engines include tools such as a map editor, material editor, etc.--things that DGDK is lacking. Also DGDK lacks many features you find in most commercial game engines, such as built-in support for a scripting language. Simply put DGDK is more of a DX wrapper than an actual game engine and so if you ever do use a real C++ game engine you might actually find yourself having an easier time on larger projects.

However that's not to say DGDK isn't capable of great things--I just think it's more suitable for hobbyists and more casual game development.

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heyufool1
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 22:09
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Well, I don't have any experience with professional programming but I recently downloaded the Havok Physics engine, and after looking at that, well... it's much more complicated. So judging from that I would say that programming a game from scratch using nothing but pure C++ is much harder then using Dark GDK. Although I have not understanding of professional game engines like Source and Unreal Engine so I can't say anything about true professional game programming (most companies use their own engine like Source and Unreal).

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wickedly kick it
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 23:54
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Thanks guys looks fine as of now, i suppose knowing dark basic helps a ton when learning Dark GDK

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heyufool1
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 00:00
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Well I never really learned dark basic but it does help in the sense that it teaches you 3d and you become familiar with the functions (which are about the same in Dark GDK). But the syntax is different.

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dark coder
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 04:18
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Quote: "So judging from that I would say that programming a game from scratch using nothing but pure C++..."


No one codes an engine from scratch using 'nothing but pure C++', there are thousands of libraries out there that do many things and some are pretty much required.

As for the OP's question, I don't think any other game oriented libraries like GDK are structured similarly because it's counter-intuitive to development and the way the rendering is handled isn't efficient/flexible at all. GDK is just a C++ library version of DBPro, DBPro isn't a repackaging of GDK in a different language so there of course would be limitations. The most obvious of which is because DBPro lacks OO so does GDK, for the most part.

Unless you consider using GDK to mean use it to merely initialize D3D and then you just do the rest in C++ and D3D(no GDK) then you still won't be able to make anything close to any AAA titles because GDK is limited and not fast enough.

GDK is still good for making small indie games though, but if you think you can make the next HL2 then you're living in a world of delusion.

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wickedly kick it
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 05:34
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Lol cmon dark coder, give people some hope, im sure with the right optimizations you could totally make a very awesome game, i'm not saying the next WoW or Fallout 3, but more like halflife 1 (which was probably the best game in its time), Elder scrolls: Morrowind, you know, great games, low quality graphics, it all has oy do with how you process things.

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sydbod
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 13:55
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Quote: "the way the rendering is handled isn't efficient/flexible at all."


Totally agree with this.This is the main problem with DarkGDK.
Without being able to control the rendering sequence, and what gets rendered to what camera, is the thing that slows the game code down immensely.
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AndrewT
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 16:34 Edited at: 29th Jun 2009 16:10
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Quote: "i'm not saying the next WoW or Fallout 3, but more like halflife 1"


I'm certain that if you gave DGDK to a very experienced game dev team they could remake HL1, considering the fairly limited graphics it had, and it would be a pretty damn good remake, too. But the thing is, an experienced game dev team isn't going to be using (nor will they want to use) DGDK.

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jezza
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Posted: 29th Jun 2009 15:43
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I think that a remake of HL1 would run soemwhat slower than the original.

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Matty H
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Posted: 29th Jun 2009 19:54
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I think there are programming jobs in the industry at every level but I think you will need to be pretty fluent in C++.

The thing I find with DarkGDK(any engine?) is you can use as little or as much of the C++ capabilities as you want.

So, I dont think DarkGDK will hold you back if you are utilising all of the C++ capabilities: classes, pointers etc..

Also, alot of the game dev jobs not only require C++ but some sort of demonstration of what you can do, so your small DarkGDK projects could lead to better things if your code is efficient, well organised and easy to read.
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Mista Wilson
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Posted: 1st Jul 2009 11:51
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@jezza :

Quote: "I think that a remake of HL1 would run soemwhat slower than the original."


What makes you think that, If you dont mind my asking ?
I would have thought that the original Half Life 1, would have been easily recreated with the capabilities of DarkGDK and I would think would even run and could possible look better than the original, it was I believe, a Quake 3 mod wasnt it ? or quake 2 or a mod of some engine lol...

Half Life 1:Source, would be another story I think, as the Source engine is light years ahead of anything that GDK is capable of(in my opinion anyway), Ive done a small amount of modding on that engine's SDK code, and its awesome to say the least

If it ain't broke.... DONT FIX IT !!!
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dark coder
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Posted: 1st Jul 2009 13:02
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Quote: "What makes you think that, If you dont mind my asking ?"


DBPro/GDK's rendering engines aren't known for their speed, for a remake to be faster than HL1 then GDK would have to be able to process graphics faster than HL1 which is what's disputed. As for being able to remake HL1, of course.

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Mista Wilson
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Posted: 1st Jul 2009 13:57
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Ahh I see, you have a good point there dark coder. I didnt think of the fact we cant control the renderer too well in GDK, yet anyway lol

As for my opinion of the OP's question about GDK being a false sense of hope and spoiling him in programming, I really think that its not at all. In my opinion, there really isnt a better way to learn basic programming practices than to do it with something practical like the DarkGDK. Instead of printing out some plain text in a console window that demonstrates a purpose surely, but really isnt that much fun, using the GDK I think can make it really educational AND fun, which always makes learning quicker. There is even a printed book at the moment, I think it was featured in a recent newsletter, about learning C++ using DarkGDK as part of the toolset, I think it's called "Starting out with Games and Graphics in C++" or something along those lines.

Once you have the basic principles of C++ coding and also what you learn through using the GDK, it really isnt hard to take the next step and dig into the DirectX API or OpenGL or something and start constructing your own engines, or even contributing meaningfully to an existing open source one to hone your skills.

If it ain't broke.... DONT FIX IT !!!
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jezza
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Posted: 1st Jul 2009 21:55
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Half Life is a GoldSrc game, which is based on the Quake (1) engine. Half Life: Source is a direct port of this onto the Source engine, which has no better looks than Half Life - none of the textures or models were updated, and the bare renderer on the Source engine isn't too fancy until Half Life 2: Episode 2

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