Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [LOCKED] Criticisms of DarkBASIC Professional

Author
Message
mr Handy
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 23:30 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2009 23:31
Link
Well, for me all that talks about limitations is a bullsh:t. DBPro have everything to make every type of game, as for newbies, as for pros. It has full shader support. Commands are clear and source is not complicated (depends on coder, of course! ). Plus plugins to add third party functions like physics, etc. But...DBPro is a 'little bit' slower, that i expected

So, please stop kicking DBP, it's not Microsoft™ monster like C, it's just Lee's Basic.

Lee Bamber is so~o sweet'n'cool desu nya ^^
Back to top
Profile PM
draknir_
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Oct 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 00:25
Link
I'd just like to chip in with support for all criticisms in the OP. It's all these little things which add up to a whole lot of inconsistencies and annoyances when programming in DBP.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 02:06
Link
MrHandy, it has full shader support - for directX 8, and some of 8.1

Back to top
Profile PM
BillR
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 05:48 Edited at: 4th Oct 2009 07:21
Link
Editted to tone down my comments...
Complaining about DBPro - wishing it had more 'C' or 'C++' like features, doesn't seem fair to TGC.

When You can use DarkGDK with whatever version of 'C' you like to use,
go for it and stop complaining here, if you want those 'C' features, then go use 'C'.

The more advanced 'C' features you add to DBPro, the harder it becomes for hobbiest programmers to use.
This is a BASIC programming language, and is just about right for beginners and intermediate programmers to use, while still being powerful enough for advanced programmers also.

I do agree with Benjamin in his post below:
Quote: "
There are many issues with the language that make it awkward to use, even for beginners. Some of the suggestions here are actual basic necessities, while others would make development a lot faster, without greatly increasing the difficulty of use.
"


I just think these posts sound overly harsh toward TGC, but I too would like for TGC to support DBPro and the plugins they sell better, rather than see how many plugins they can offer. DarkPhysics for one needs major attention.

I just think it is easy for some to complain about DBPro and forget how much it REALLY offers.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 06:16 Edited at: 4th Oct 2009 06:30
Link
Did you guys actually bother to read the post? It has legitimate criticism on the limitations and flaws of the language, from someone who has much experience with both DBPro and C++ and who has actually won many competitions with his projects. He's not just mindlessly bashing DBPro for not having polymorphism, etc.

There are many issues with the language that make it awkward to use, even for beginners. Some of the suggestions here are actual basic necessities, while others would make development a lot faster, without greatly increasing the difficulty of use.

In short: Come back when you've read the original post.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 12:46
Link
Oh i do love the pedantic formalness of it all.

Anyway,"to be fair to the TGC" stop releasing countless addons and fix the base tools - the IDE and DBP

Back to top
Profile PM
mr Handy
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 14:18
Link
Quote: "MrHandy, it has full shader support - for directX 8, and some of 8.1"
Wha..?

DBP supports 2.0 and 3.0 shaders, that is important!!!
If you have some knowledge, you can make any effect in DBP, any!
Anyway you need latest dx to launch db application!
blah...

Lee Bamber is so~o sweet'n'cool desu nya ^^
Back to top
Profile PM
Sasuke
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2005
Location: Milton Keynes UK
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 16:32
Link
Quote: "DBP supports 2.0 and 3.0 shaders, that is important!!!"


Not really, if you can't get your game to function correctly because of limitations or your stressing the compiler which is slow already with stupid work arounds then whats the point of your game looking pretty. Also you can't make any effect or it you would kill your frame rate from trying, I would say its mainly down to how the camera's work which means more work arounds. One thing I would like to see is more control over how everythings being drawn, though core functionality fixed first.

A dream is a fantasy, if you achieve that fantasy it was never a dream to begin with.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 16:41
Link
Dark Basic has personality. That counts for something doesn't it? It's fun to call anything made with it "Dark Whatever"


Come see the WIP!
Back to top
Profile PM
Sasuke
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2005
Location: Milton Keynes UK
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 17:07 Edited at: 4th Oct 2009 17:18
Link
It sure does. I've use DBP more than any other language and loved every moment. And thinking of it, finding these limitations and working out work-arounds has improved my coding ability.

A dream is a fantasy, if you achieve that fantasy it was never a dream to begin with.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
RUCCUS
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 17:32 Edited at: 4th Oct 2009 17:33
Link
I couln't agree with you more about the issue concerning arrays inside UDTs. Its gotten to the point now where I've written a library of around 10 functions that take care of simulating this effect. The work-around involves creating array's with variables that refer to the index of another array, this index is their parent. So instead of having something simple like;



You're forced to;



Which get's completely out of hand when you're dealing with resizable arrays that can get extremely large. Then when you throw in deleting array entries and shifting array data things get all out of order yet again and more code is needed to deal with that. Arrays in UDT's are something I've always wished DBP had. UDT Methods would be pretty good for efficiency as well.

While we're on the topic I completely agree about references as well. There would be no need to globalize unnecessary variables just to have them interchangable between functions.

Thing is I really doubt Lee or anyone that could convince Lee to take a look at this would. He's far too busy with FPSC X10, DBP X10, advertising / sales and all of those other apps they've been pumping out for the iPhone to worry about updating DBP.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Joe T
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 18:27
Link
I fully agree with most of the points made, apart from:

1-1) 1-2) Global variable and array declarations - I personally like the idea of statements only being executed when program runs to that point. Executing certain commands before others will cause more confusion than it's worth. At least there is consistancy at the moment.

2-1) Lack of option explicit - I have no problem with being able to write to variables without previously declaring them, but what is utterly insane is that you can read variables without having written to them previously! In what crazy world could this be considered anything other than a huge stinking bug in the language?

2-3) No methods in UDTs - DBPro is not an object oriented language. If you add methods, then why aren't there constructors and destructors? If we add these, then surely operator overloading would make sense? My point is, either go full-OO or not at all. Adding methods would be a purely aesthetic feature.

One of this things I have disliked about DBPro to the start is how you have to provide numbers for all your resources. No sane person would want to manually assign resource numbers for anything bigger than a couple of hundred lines of code. Of course you can write your own functions to handle assignment of resource numbers, but the basic fact is that this "feature" encourages bad program design and should have been eliminated in the transition between DarkBASIC and DBPro.

There are several arguments for keeping DBPro as it is that do not work:

1) DBPro is a BASIC language, thus you cannot expect it to have all the advanced features that you would find in a "complex" programming language - DBPro is based on the BASIC programming language supposedly for its ease of use, and appeal to those new to programming, but using the BASIC label as an excuse to create a mediocre and incomplete programming language is not acceptable. May I also remind everyone that DBPro is also a "Professional" programming language, and although DBPro may be keeping professional with regards to its game engine, it is distinctly unprofessional when it comes to the language itself.

2) DarkGDK is available, stop complaining and use C++ - If I want to use C++, I may as well go the whole hog and stop using DBPro/DarkGDK altogether and switch to a more complex, but more flexible and fully featured solution. The appeal of DBPro is its simplicity and its ability to produce results quickly. Once you start using C++, this advantage is lost.
Back to top
Profile PM
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 18:30 Edited at: 4th Oct 2009 18:31
Link
Quote: "
It sure does. I've use DBP more than any other language and loved every moment. And thinking of it, finding these limitations and working out work-arounds has improved my coding ability.
"


LOL just LOL; other then that no comment

and with the above part, GreenGandelf can create any shader, but thats not via DBP, DBP just gives him stupid limitations.

Back to top
Profile PM
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 19:57
Link
Quote: "finding these limitations and working out work-arounds has improved my coding ability."

DBP didn't improve my coding ability. It increased my debugging ability. I have superhuman debugging skills now. I can pinpoint a faulty command with a quickness. Thank you DBP.


Come see the WIP!
Back to top
Profile PM
Diggsey
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Apr 2006
Location: On this web page.
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 20:32
Link
Quote: "DBP didn't improve my coding ability. It increased my debugging ability. I have superhuman debugging skills now. I can pinpoint a faulty command with a quickness. Thank you DBP."


Same here


New DBPro IDE + integrated debugger!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 20:39
Link
Quote: "I personally like the idea of statements only being executed when program runs to that point. Executing certain commands before others will cause more confusion than it's worth. At least there is consistancy at the moment."


But that's just it, a variable declaration isn't normally an 'executed' statement, it's just a definition.

Quote: "I have no problem with being able to write to variables without previously declaring them, but what is utterly insane is that you can read variables without having written to them previously! In what crazy world could this be considered anything other than a huge stinking bug in the language?"


Quote: "If I want to use C++, I may as well go the whole hog and stop using DBPro/DarkGDK altogether and switch to a more complex, but more flexible and fully featured solution. The appeal of DBPro is its simplicity and its ability to produce results quickly. Once you start using C++, this advantage is lost."


Agreed.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Green Gandalf
VIP Member
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jan 2005
Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 20:50
Link
Quote: "but what is utterly insane is that you can read variables without having written to them previously"


Yes, programmers do insane things sometimes. All I ask of DBPro is that it consistently - and predictably - initialises variables on first use whether or not it is read or write. When I last checked it didn't.

I prefer a language to require explicit declaration of all variables - but it's hardly a show-stopper if it doesn't.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
aki
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Nov 2008
Location:
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 20:54
Link
Quote: "DBP supports 2.0 and 3.0 shaders, that is important!!!
If you have some knowledge, you can make any effect in DBP, any!
Anyway you need latest dx to launch db application!
blah..."

Yes, it is important. However, given the difficulty using render targets (are there even MRTs?) complex shaders requiring more than one scene render are even MORE difficult and incredibly inefficient given the lack of choice for color mode. Changing the camera drawing system from sync and fastsync and sync mask over to something as simple as camera render 0 and sync would be much more efficient. Or, look at the Render Dynamic Cube Map command, which is fairly efficient and extremely easy to use.
Back to top
Profile PM
Mistrel
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Nov 2005
Location:
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 22:25 Edited at: 4th Oct 2009 22:35
Link
Quote: "DBPro is a BASIC language, thus you cannot expect it to have all the advanced features that you would find in a "complex" programming language."


Sure it can! Have a look at PureBasic. With PureGDK you can program using DarkBasic Professional using PureBasic, an advanced and powerful BASIC language. Everything that has been addressed as something that DBP can't do in this thread PureBasic can.

DarkBasic has always been focused on game programming not application programming or its tools and IDE. PureBasic has, from the start. Even if these features were to be added to DBP it would take years before it could even come close to PureBasic. You can continue to wait, if you like. Or you can have it now, with PureGDK.

All of the functionality of DarkBasic Professional is natively supported including all plugins. It also features many advanced features not supported in DarkGDK including all commands being thread-safe, true matrix and vector datatypes, engine enhancements, and the ability to draw the DBP window onto any other window for tools and application programming.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 23:39
Link
PureGDK is great, Purebasic and DBP work well together.


Come see the WIP!
Back to top
Profile PM
Zotoaster
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 23:48
Link
I just started using Messenger Plus for MSN, and it has a neat scripting system that I've started using, called JScript (Microsoft's implementation of JavaScript).

Here's the thing. It's so lightweight and easy to use, but has so many more language features than DBPro. It's strange, how something designed for huge projects has fewer features than something designed for small things.

Just an observation.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Back to top
Profile PM Email
EdzUp
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posted: 4th Oct 2009 23:57
Link
Basically the points raised by DarkCoder are valid, the problems he points to are available in ALL other basic languages on the market today be it Blitz, PureBasic or VB. DarkBasic is the only language held back by these limitations.

It does just boil down to what you want to use to write a game for a particular purpose for example you want to write for Mac or Linux you could choose PureBasic, BlitzMax, C, Python, Java. DBPro is good for Win32 but there are LOADS of languages out there that do the same thing the problem is once a beginner becomes intermediate or wants to do advanced things in DBPro they either have to write a Dll in another language (they might as well write everything if they can write a dll in the other language) Or they have to look elsewhere.

When I first started in 3d using DBClassic and I wrote Star Flight 2000 I was amazed at how easy it was to write in, yeah I had my problems with the language but I worked around them (all part of being a programmer I thought). I hit the wall with the 16000 line problem with DBClassic that stopped my project but I have seen some really good games come from DBClassic and DBPro. I have moved on since my DBClassic days I went first to Blitz (good language as good as DB and has loads of extras and some missing stuff), I also looked at PureBasic once again nice language some limitations there too (raw data transfers over networking was one I had to have fixed length packets instead of sending raw data and having a beginning and ending header). I am now on ObjC (having come to DBClassic from C/ASM in DOS) and im writing iPhone games .

What this post boils down to if your not happy with a language and you cant work around the problem (part of coding every language I have seen has limitations) then look elsewhere you can guarantee there will be loads that will take your place and buy DBPro. Yeah I do think the points raised are valid and should have been in there from the beginning but its down to choice its down to you if you want to continue using DBPro or look elsewhere. Were programmers part of that choice is wracking our brains for workarounds to problems presented to us.

-EdzUp
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 00:51
Link
Quote: "It's strange, how something designed for huge projects has fewer features than something designed for small things."


But bear in mind, jScript was built by hundreds of people, DBP is created by just 2 or 3 (and initially just 1 person!)

I wouldn't classify jScript as being for small things - it has to be unbelievably secure, otherwise it would be dropped in an instant. It cannot afford to have any security holes.

Back to top
Profile PM Email
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 11:12
Link
Purebasic is a very different language to DBPro. For one thing, DBPro is a GAME CREATION language, Purebasic is not. DBPro has different priorities, Lee could either work on improving the types features in DBPro, or he can debug some zDepth issues somewhere, what is more important?

And as for Purebasic itself, it's a lot more complex than DBPro, it takes longer to learn than DBPro, and natively has a only fraction of the game centric commands and features that DBPro has. If you take Purebasic and GDK, you think your still working with basic? - no, your working with a C++ engine wrapped for Purebasic, so what's the point in that, you'd spend just the same energy doing it with C++.

I use Purebasic for business apps, and I love it to death, but I wouldn't try making a game with it, and neither do most people.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
dark coder
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 11:57 Edited at: 5th Oct 2009 11:59
Link
Quote: "1-1) 1-2) Global variable and array declarations - I personally like the idea of statements only being executed when program runs to that point. Executing certain commands before others will cause more confusion than it's worth. At least there is consistancy at the moment."


In addition to what Benjamin said, remember that you can still use global variables whether or not they're executed, but with arrays you can't even add an index to the back and have it work without executing dim, even if you only need a size of () aka -1.


Quote: "Here's the thing. It's so lightweight and easy to use, but has so many more language features than DBPro. It's strange, how something designed for huge projects has fewer features than something designed for small things."


This is typical of many scripting languages compared to languages that compile to machine code or otherwise do the bulk of the work at compile time. With many scripting languages, speed/efficiency/low-level control etc usually isn't a top priority, so dynamic typing, garbage collection etc are often done. However, DBPro doesn't even try to implement the myriad of these features.


Quote: "no, your working with a C++ engine wrapped for Purebasic, so what's the point in that, you'd spend just the same energy doing it with C++."


But DBPro is written in C++ too, and if you look at the GDK functions they are basically identical to the DBPro ones(that is, they are no harder), so unless some crazy stuff happens with the PB version they should be the same as when used in DBPro(maybe even easier).

Back to top
Profile PM Email
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 12:24
Link
The difference between DBPro and PB is huge, really I see PB as more than just a BASIC, it reminds me of older languages like Pascal sometimes - not because it's dated, more due to the way it works.

The point I'm trying to make is that DBPro is easy to learn, while PB will need a bit more effort to learn - besides GDK you'd still need to know the basic functionality of the language to get very far. A lot of it is syntax of course, but it's not a case of diving into GDK and disregarding what PB might have to say about it .

At the end of the day, people should stick to the language that is getting results for them, I don't see any justification to switch to another platform if DBPro is working for you. For you guys, these shortcomings are a huge annoyance, but for a lot more people they are not even a consideration. Maybe what is needed here is some input from Lee, we just don't know how much of a priority this stuff would be, it would not impact existing code, and would make a lot of you very happy. Never know, it might be possible to convince him to look into these, given how well it's been discussed so far.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
EdzUp
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 12:34
Link
I think if Lee implemented these then it can only make the language better

-EdzUp
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Alfa x
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2006
Location: Colombia
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 15:51 Edited at: 5th Oct 2009 15:52
Link
Quote: "Lee could either work on improving the types features in DBPro, or he can debug some zDepth issues somewhere, what is more important?"


I prefer type improving. There is a huge lack in some features like passing types by reference and that is very basic...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 15:54
Link
Quote: "Lee could either work on improving the types features in DBPro, or he can debug some zDepth issues somewhere, what is more important?"


I thought Mike was the guy who worked on the graphics engine?
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Zotoaster
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 17:02
Link
VanB,

Ideally, they would work on making both parts as perfect as possible. But, if I had a choice, I'd prefer they worked on fixing the language. Not only does it make it easier to handle large projects (lets face it Andrew, it does, and games are very large ), but it can affect the performance of your game. For example, if you can't pass things by reference, you're forced to do tons of copies every loop. Not good news.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 17:17
Link
That's what I'm saying though, this discussion is full of people who probably wouldn't make a bug report, because we know how to get around these issues. TGC might simply not be aware that it's more advanced DBPro users and GDK users would appreciate these features. I think the main thing is that these could be added without disrupting anyone's existing methods, like optional functionality.

If they are unaware how important these features are to us, then they will go for engine fixes and new features over that stuff every time. There is no harm in asking Lee, or Mike, or whomever if they can look at this thread and consider it. Now we just need someone who Lee and Mike listen to, to email them and see if they can't pay a visit.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Pincho Paxton
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Dec 2002
Location:
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 17:22
Link
Funny, but I would think that some of these things would only take a day to implement. You would expect somebody to spend a day working on the Types without much bother to them.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Alfa x
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2006
Location: Colombia
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 18:22
Link
Quote: "
If they are unaware how important these features are to us, then they will go for engine fixes and new features over that stuff every time. There is no harm in asking Lee, or Mike, or whomever if they can look at this thread and consider it. Now we just need someone who Lee and Mike listen to, to email them and see if they can't pay a visit."


I have asked for type pass before to Lee himself, he said at that time that it was not a top priority.. I think we need someone that he listen to, as you say, for those features to be considered.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Zotoaster
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 19:35
Link
Get DarkCoder to tell them. He's scary man.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Back to top
Profile PM Email
BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 19:38
Link
Quote: "There is no harm in asking Lee, or Mike, or whomever if they can look at this thread and consider it. Now we just need someone who Lee and Mike listen to, to email them and see if they can't pay a visit."


Lee is aware of this thread He says it's harrowing and he's packed his bags for the last time for sunnier climes.
Joking aside, he does know about it - don't ask for a huge pile of new functionality, but there will be a response of sorts in due course.

Back to top
Profile PM Email
Mistrel
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Nov 2005
Location:
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 21:38 Edited at: 8th Oct 2009 03:48
Link
Quote: "But DBPro is written in C++ too, and if you look at the GDK functions they are basically identical to the DBPro ones(that is, they are no harder), so unless some crazy stuff happens with the PB version they should be the same as when used in DBPro(maybe even easier)."


Some crazy stuff HAS happened with the PB version. It uses the DarkBasic Professional engine NOT the DarkGDK engine so it's compatible with all of the commercial and community plugins. It also provides many features not available in DarkGDK which make programming for DBP even easier (points which I've tried to highlight). Several of these features are even asked for on the DarkGDK forum. These are features I've implemented to improve the engine, not TGC.

Quote: "no, your working with a C++ engine wrapped for Purebasic, so what's the point in that, you'd spend just the same energy doing it with C++."


Trying to learn C++ with only a background in DBP is too difficult for most people on this forum. Some people like programming in BASIC and don't want to use C++. With PureBasic you still get all the power of C while still programming in BASIC.

Quote: "At the end of the day, people should stick to the language that is getting results for them, I don't see any justification to switch to another platform if DBPro is working for you."


People are obviously asking for a myriad of features not present in DBP. PureBasic not only has everything that's been requested but it's still a BASIC dialect so it's very easy to pick up. It only took me a week to adjust from DBP to PureBasic. It's not that hard.

There is also a complete book you can download with lots of examples and source code for learning the language:

http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37059

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
mr Handy
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 5th Oct 2009 23:46 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 00:02
Link
I think this thread looks like a forcing of PB. What the point to blame DB? I don't think it will be good, if i'll start such thread too - 'Lets Learn MS Visual Basic instead this stupid sh:t because it can't convert x to y'. Why you attacking DB instead of providing help to avoid some limits of DB? Yes, DB is slow, have some bugs and limits, but look at the games done with it - is there any complicated one? Red nose games maybe? Or adventures of the egg™? There is no high-level games here. (Here at TGC 1st person shooters are not a HQ game) Most of people here don't need brutal math or smth with super-duper functions - so they choosed DB and its simplicity.
Also, Lee will provide new cubemap function (as was said in newsletter), and i can say this will be last improvement, (exept speed up and bugfix) that DB need. Maybe some improvements with functions or other thing that were discussied here, but this is not critical for game developing.
I think this thread should be locked for Lee's sake.

Lee Bamber is so~o sweet'n'cool desu nya ^^
Back to top
Profile PM
Zotoaster
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:19 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 00:31
Link
mrHandy,

Everything suggested here wouldn't mean you'd have to be any more talented than you already are to program in DarkBASIC Pro. It just means that you don't come to see as many limits so quickly.

And really, this would be a good investment for TGC. If people didn't move away from DBPro because of it's limits, more professionals would stay with it and create better games with it, which is good for DBPro's reputation.

If everyone who can actually make a complete game leaves DBPro because of it's limits, then when will the general public get a good chance to see what DBPro is *really* capable of?

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Alfa x
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2006
Location: Colombia
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:29
Link
Quote: "mrHandy,

Everything suggested here wouldn't mean you'd have to be any more talented than you already are to program in DarkBASIC Pro. It just means that you don't come to see as many limits to quickly.

And really, this would be a good investment for TGC. If people didn't move away from DBPro because of it's limits, more professionals would stay with it and create better games with it, which is good for DBPro's reputation.

If everyone who can actually make a complete game leaves DBPro because of it's limits, then when will the general public get a good chance to see what DBPro is *really* capable of?
"


This is a so good point that i'm without words. What better reason than that to improve DBRPO?
Back to top
Profile PM Email
mr Handy
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:29 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 00:37
Link
Some people here thinks that DB can't offer pro coding. Thats true, and false at same time. Yes, DB is not assembler or C, but games, done with DB CAN be wery powerfull at current build (7.4 AFAIK). Phew. Hope thats clear

EDIT: do not take offence, but i cant see any PROs here, maybe pair if shader specialists.

Lee Bamber is so~o sweet'n'cool desu nya ^^
Back to top
Profile PM
Alfa x
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2006
Location: Colombia
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:31 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 00:34
Link
Quote: "You see, some people here (guess who) thinks that DB can't offer pro coding. Thats true, and false at same time. Yes, DB is not assembler or C, but games, done with DB CAN be wery powerfull at current build (7.4 AFAIK). Phew. Hope thats clear "


True, but just imagine what could be done with better base language features. Don't you think so?

Quote: "Also, Lee will provide new cubemap function (as was said in newsletter), and i can say this will be last improvement, (exept speed up and bugfix) that DB need. Maybe some improvements with functions or other thing that were discussied here, but this is not critical for game developing.
I think this thread should be locked for Lee's sake."


Please don't lock it. I think that is a wonderful opportunity to see what DBPRO lacks and improve it. (It's not lee, it's a company)
Back to top
Profile PM Email
mr Handy
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:48
Link
Quote: "Please don't lock it. I think that is a wonderful opportunity to see what DBPRO lacks and improve it. (It's not lee, it's a company) "

Yes, you absolutely right, only if here will be talk about dark basic, not other languages.

Quote: "True, but just imagine what could be done with better base language features. Don't you think so?"

I think current task is debugging and to speed-up core engine.
DB is slow, and thats bad.
New functions...maybe maybe...but speed is everyting.

Lee Bamber is so~o sweet'n'cool desu nya ^^
Back to top
Profile PM
Alfa x
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2006
Location: Colombia
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 02:37
Link
Quote: "I think current task is debugging and to speed-up core engine.
DB is slow, and thats bad.
New functions...maybe maybe...but speed is everyting."


There are two kinds of speed. Speed of execution and speed of development (productivity and maintenance). Everything in DBPRO has its workarouds and that is very good. but there are things that cost to much in development, some people can't afford it and thats the reason why they migrate. Some of the features that DC described are very basic and they should't be considered as new functions.

Although a speed improvement is a great thing to see, but there are some speed optimizations that can't be achieved other way (for example passing by reference you don't have to create something two or more times and you avoid repeatable huge code).

In one thing i agree with you and is that new functions should be avoided until other things get done and DBPRO root strengthen.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
tiresius
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Nov 2002
Location: MA USA
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 04:56
Link
Quote: "...but there will be a response of sorts in due course."

Unless the response is "leave me alone", that is exciting. I have been using DBPro since update 3.1 and I must say that I don't remember ever seeing improvements to the language features itself (other than bug fixes) being made since I started. Some of the points above have been made since the beginning, so if certain language features will finally get some attention that would be something!

I'm not a real programmer but I play one with DBPro!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
QuothTheRaven
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 06:02
Link
God I wish there were pointers to functions

DelvarWorld
Back to top
Profile PM
Mistrel
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Nov 2005
Location:
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 06:17 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 06:22
Link
Quote: "God I wish there were pointers to functions"


Also native to PureBasic. Want a pointer to a DBP function? PureGDK can do this.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
MayoZebraHat 1979
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Dec 2007
Location:
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 08:33
Link
I just wanted to say something I always say when people mention BASIC being too basic. "It has nothing to do with the words you are typing to the source file, it's what the compiler does with them when you hit compile". It's not the language, it's the compiler and default libraires... oh and lack of a fully featured pre-compiler, but I digress.

I've loved the BASIC syntax for a long time and I think I've used FreeBASIC longer than most. Lately I've been prototyping all my projects in DBPro and even making some fun games... but man I miss all these features mentioned plus inline ASM.
Back to top
Profile PM
Mistrel
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Nov 2005
Location:
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 09:23 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 09:24
Link
Quote: "I've been prototyping all my projects in DBPro and even making some fun games... but man I miss all these features mentioned plus inline ASM."


Inline ASM is also supported natively by PureBasic. There's no need to sacrifice advanced language capabilities for the sake of games programming. PureGDK is literally "DarkBasic for PureBasic".

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Alfa x
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2006
Location: Colombia
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 16:59
Link
Quote: "Inline ASM is also supported natively by PureBasic. There's no need to sacrifice advanced language capabilities for the sake of games programming. PureGDK is literally "DarkBasic for PureBasic"."


Excume me, but I think that this thread will lose its focus if you continue talking about PureGDK and PureBasic.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Diggsey
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Apr 2006
Location: On this web page.
Posted: 6th Oct 2009 19:02
Link
Quote: "God I wish there were pointers to functions"


Uh... There ARE pointers to functions


New DBPro IDE + integrated debugger!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-23 05:21:35
Your offset time is: 2024-11-23 05:21:35