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3 Dimensional Chat / Sword Model WIP

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 14:07 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 13:04
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Hi all,
I decided to take a small break from my other projects and started this yesterday. If I can get it looking nice I hope to sell it on TurboSquid, but we'll see about that.

I dunno where the inspiration came from, but I just started doodling something on paper and this is what came out of it.

What do you guys think? Any comments/crits would be appreciated.

Edit: Here's the finished product: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=168217&b=3&msg=1994054#m1994054




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Asteric
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 14:34
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AH, some nice sub-d work there, are you planning on doing a Low poly bake? IF so some of your edges look a bit too sharp.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 14:36
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looks awesome! some uneccesary polies, which came from subdiv i suppose, but it is looking very very nice!

are you going to make a low poly verson? and bake this verson toit?


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
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Asteric
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 14:49
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Quik, you have to remember, he has to add control edges to get the hard and smoothed pieces, so there is going to be a lot of edges around there that can be removed for the low poly.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 15:10 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2010 15:15
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Thanks guys

Actually I wasn't planning on doing a low-poly bake, but just keeping this level of detail. I plan to sculpt in extra detail on a further subdivided copy and then bake that onto this one, but with too many polys my computer starts to give me dirty looks.

Just finished a UV map:



Edit: *very rough UV map
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Asteric
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 15:30
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I would not bake a high poly model onto a high poly model, there is basically no point, as what you have is so high poly any way, there is little use for it.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 15:39
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The point would be to get a level of detail that would normally slow things down without slowing things down. And sure there is. I intend to use the model in renders and such. Just because it's not ending up in a game doesn't mean there isn't a market for it.

We're at 6712 polys at current, which compared to "high-poly" models, isn't so high-poly after all.
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Asteric
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 19:23
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That poly count is not taking the sub-div into account, if you convert it to a standard mesh with the turbo applied, it should drastically increase. Besides, if you are capable, you can make low polygon models looks stunning.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 19:43
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Er.. okay... I'm trying not to be offended, but I think I know my program well enough to tell you the subdivided poly count, and I'm using Blender, not Max.

I'm also aware that capable people can make amazing low-poly meshes. I've made a few myself. As I've implied before, that is not the point of this project.
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Asteric
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 20:26 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2010 20:28
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Im not trying to offend you at all, im giving you advice, take it or leave it, its up to you. But im sure that the polycount would be higher, i may be wrong though.

I am saying this because when i turbosmooth a 16 poly mesh, it results in 128 polies afterwards, therefore it it timesing the poly count by 8, if i say apply a second iteration, i get 512, so that was my oly concern.

Also on the uv, i can see a lot of areas that can be overlapped to save UV space, such as the blade, may be something to consider.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 20:41
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As I've said, you are wrong. Please don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not some noob who wanted to show off his first model.

There are 1692 polys without the subdivision and 6712 with it.

As for the UV map, yeah, I think I'm going to end up overlapping the blades, because they're going to be mirror images of each other.
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Asteric
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 21:07
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I didnt assume anything, i simply wanted to check so that you run over a poly limit and end up redoing things, which would be a shame.

I think everything bar the handle and a few other bits can be overlapped, and like you said if it is being rendered as a mirror image, there wont be much of a downside.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2010 22:40
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I agree, there is a market for high poly models. When rendering scenes for a still used in a game. the final render ends up as a texture usually mapped on a plane. (for a picture on a wall for example) I also like to do renderings of scenes with several objects and having high poly models helps add more detail to the renderings.

I also agree, if you take the time to make a high poly model making a low poly one whit the high poly baked onto it is a nice addition to the set.

my 2 cents, Cheers!

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 02:38
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@Asteric: I have no poly limit, as I have implied more than once now. It's slightly insulting to an artist to be asked the same questions he has answered more than once before just because you're "checking" for him, or can't take his word for it.

@David: Yes, and even if I don't tap into this market, I just enjoy creating things like this. It's already been a learning experience, and maybe if I feel like it later, I start pulling loops to make a low-poly version.
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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 02:49 Edited at: 4th Apr 2010 02:55
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Quote: "I have no poly limit, as I have implied more than once now. It's slightly insulting to an artist to be asked the same questions he has answered more than once before just because you're "checking" for him, or can't take his word for it."


I did not know that when i made my first post though did i? Seriously man, im not trying to insult you at all, i have never seen you before, so i didnt know how much you understood.

My first assumption was based off the fact that this is a game art community, therefore the majority of things produced here are directed towards games, opposed to rendering and the lot. I was also jumping the gun a bit i guess, but most new users, maybe not exactly your case, are just starting to learn 3d.

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Quik
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 02:55
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yeah, i see asterics points fully, i was about to say exactly the same things as asteric before, since, 6,7k polies seems a bit low for what i can see, but, it might be less, not going to argue about it, also, being "offended" by someone asking the poly count, is a big no-no, u will get those questions a lot, if i were to ask say asteric to make a model, i would definitly ask him for poly count, and if he had made an awesome looking model, and it looks like 14k+ and he says 6k, wouldnt i be suspicious?

non-the-less, it looks truly awesome! and i cant wait for the lowpoly! keep up the good work man!


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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 03:22
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@Asteric:
Quote: "I did not know that when i made my first post though did i?"

No, but it should've clued you in after I said I had no intention of dropping the poly count. I guess I'll just explicitly state whether or not my next model is supposed to be high-poly.

@Quik: Of course I'm not going to get offended when someone asks me the poly count of my model. That would be ridiculous. I get offended when someone just tells me the poly count I gave them
Quote: "is not taking the sub-div into account."

I'd like to think I know my work a little better than they do, and so when I assure them that I gave the correct poly count, I get offended when they can't take my word for it by saying:
Quote: "But im sure that the polycount would be higher, i may be wrong though"

And after I tell them again that they're wrong, I get
Quote: "i simply wanted to check so that you run over a poly limit and end up redoing things, which would be a shame"

...thanks? I don't feel that's really anyone's place unless I had told everyone that I was just starting out, and needed all the help I could get. Whatever. I'm done.

Anyhoo, thanks!
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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 03:29 Edited at: 4th Apr 2010 03:37
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Quote: "I'd like to think I know my work a little better than they do, and so when I assure them that I gave the correct poly count"


Im not sure, but i would think you are now insulting me, come on man, all i am trying to do is make sure you achieve the best, like i always try to do.

Quote: "...thanks? I don't feel that's really anyone's place unless I had told everyone that I was just starting out, and needed all the help I could get. Whatever. I'm done.
"

And again, im just trying to help, no matter how skilled you are, there may always be something you overlook, thats why people here check.

The only reason i ever commented on the polycount was because over the years i have learned that the sub-d polycount is infact increased more when converted back to a normal object, as when in sub-d mode the faces still in fact are not really polygons, as they curve, a bit hard to explain with a headache. Having said that i am talking from 3ds max, blender may handle it differently.

Back on topic, what are you rendering this for exactly? Just out of curiosity.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 08:17
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Quote: "Im not sure, but i would think you are now insulting me"

Oh dear. No, I'm not. I sense a nasty cycle trying to brew and I propose we clear the slate. All in favor say "Aye"

I'm pretty sure TurboSmooth just does subdivisions on all faces using the Catmull-Clark algorithm or something similar, thus cutting tris and quads into 3 and 4 new faces respectively.

Blender uses a similar modifier to do subdivision modelling, but in Blender you can edit the mesh while Blender subdivides it, which is nice because you can instantly see what you're doing to it. I'm sure there's a way to do this in Max too, but I haven't played around with it enough to know (I have 3DS Max 9.0 but prefer Blender).

As for rendering, I'm honestly not sure right now. I plan to sell this, so I guess people can use it for whatever they see fit. Maybe a scene will hit me sometime soon.

Here's a little wire update:


I've added leather-bound (well... clay-bound, I guess ) grips on the hilt. Up to 8190 polys.
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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 14:51
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That leather is looking nice, are you going to detail it further in zbrush? Would be nice to really see the straps defined, such as them overlapping an stitching etc. Also some nice tribal designs on the hilt and hand guard would look sweet.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 20:20
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Thanks I'd love to, but I don't have access to zbrush. Instead I think I'm going add in extra detail via normal maps.

Here's an idea for the crosshilt:
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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 20:33
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Ah, that is looking ace man, did you overlap you uv's?

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 21:18 Edited at: 5th Apr 2010 00:31
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Not for that picture, but I've updated the UV map now, and I think I like this setup much better.



Edit: Updated the blade section.
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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 21:24
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The blade seems a bit squashed, why dot you make a rectangular uv map, so you can enlarge pieces easier?

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 21:33
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Hm? Well however I setup the UV map, the coordinates still need to be between 0 and 1. I guess I could use a rectangular texture, but I think I'll just stick to a square texture. The loss of detail will be unnoticeable and the texture will be nicer on the GPU. I was thinking 1024x1024.
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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 21:37
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That should be fine, a rectangular map is mostly used for optimising textures for games anyway.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 23:13
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I was just saying that rectangular maps might as well not exist, because the UV coordinates of the corners still have to be (0,0), (1,0), (1,1), and (0,1), so scaling the blade to make it longer is really just scaling everything else to make it shorter. Does Max gives you the option of displaying the map as a rectangle? In Blender, it's always a square until you apply the map to an image that isn't.
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Azunaki
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 00:07
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if you separate parts of the model into different objects, ie if the blade and handle were separate you could scale the blade without effecting the handle's UV map.

[url]http://myportfolio.x10hosting.com/[url]
visit my site.(still in progress)
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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 00:47
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@Azunaki: Yeah, I was thinking about doing that, but I think I like keeping it all one object. Instead, I scaled the front of the blade section down horizontally to get pretty much the same effect (but over a smaller portion of the image). You can see the new UV map in my edited post a few back.

Here's a render of the entire sword. I touched up the detail maps for the hilt and blade.
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Asteric
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 01:16
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In 3ds max you can render out rectangular UV's. You simply scale the uv's twice their length or height, and then render out a rectangular map, it then pushes them back into shape, and gets rid of a lot of uv space.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 01:18
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Here's a little update. I've added materials to the sword and started making a scabbard. I thought I was pretty set on the design I put on the blade, but then I looked up at my last post and said "...Y'know, that's not so bad either.." and now I'm conflicted. Thoughts?

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Quik
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 01:39
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i say keep the blade u have now

looking really great man!


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Visigoth
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 02:13 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 08:24
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Quote: "I was just saying that rectangular maps might as well not exist, because the UV coordinates of the corners still have to be (0,0), (1,0), (1,1), and (0,1), so scaling the blade to make it longer is really just scaling everything else to make it shorter. Does Max gives you the option of displaying the map as a rectangle? In Blender, it's always a square until you apply the map to an image that isn't. "

not sure I understand what you are saying. Must be a 3DS Max thing, because UV coordinates are just from 0 to 100 % of width (U) or 0 to 100 % of height (V). I think what was suggested was to have a rectangular (long) map so you could lay your full sword blade out. The way you have it, the texture will be stretched across the blade, which might not really matter, but, it really should be the same aspect ratio for proper mapping.
But very nice sword. I was going to do one, but got going on another airplane instead.
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Asteric
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 02:31 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 02:36
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An example of a 2048x1024 texture map. http://www.artpanda.co.uk/uploads/gallery/72e.jpg

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 06:28 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 06:33
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@Visigoth: I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing. I'm saying that a UV map is always a square because UV coordinates range from 0 to 1. Edit: Thanks, btw And yeah, the texture should really be rectangular to accurately represent the blade, but I really only need to fit that curve pattern on it which doesn't suffer too badly when stretched.

@Asteric: I'm not really sure why you posted that... What are you saying?

Edit:
@Quik: You think I should? Yeah, I think I will. Thanks for the input
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Visigoth
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 07:30 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 08:48
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@kira
no, that is not what I am saying. A UV map is NOT always square. UV coordinates are just PERCENTAGES of the total WIDTH and total HEIGHT of the map image.
So, if you have an image 2000(u) x 1000(v) and a uv coordinate of .5,.5, the intersection of the U pixel would be at 1000 and the v pixel would be at 500.
It doesn't matter if its square.
Sure, your modeler, with built in mapper, might default to a square image, but, I am sure there is a way to make it not square.
Asteric gave you a real good tip so you don't stretch your image across the model.

edit: to illustrate, here is a screenshot from Ultimate Unrap of the Fokker model I am working on. I made an image, a .jpg, and added it as a texture. Then, I selected some parts on the model, they are highlighted in Red. After I selected them, I assigned the texture to the parts. Look at the left pane. It is not square, it is the same aspect as my image, in this case, 2048x1028. This is the UV map. Anything I paint on this image will be displayed without tiling on the model, which I will show you in the next post.

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Visigoth
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 08:55 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 09:00
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After I selected the parts, I exported a UVMap. Now, In UU, it defaults to a square map, in my case, 2048x2048. however, I could change this in a box on the export screen, and I did, to 2048x1024. Here is what my UVMap looks like(screen captured, for speed)

This is a white outline of the top wing I planar mapped in Ultimate unwrap. Its a long item, similar to your sword, actually. Now, I will paint onto that image, and apply it as a texture to to the airplane, and grab a screenshot in UU. I promise you, there will be no distortion. It will look as expected, because when the model loads, it knows the image dimensions. It does not assume square dimensions.

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Visigoth
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 09:17
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ok, here is a screen shot of the UVmap applied to a model. As you can see, it works. There is no tiling, no distortion. What Asteric was suggesting was, since your sword was so long, if you made a rectangular map, you could lay the sword on the long axis, and, properly map it.

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Visigoth
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 09:18
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and here is the uvmap I actually used.

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Visigoth
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 09:35
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and, this image might just explain UV a little better.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 10:06 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 10:13
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There is a difference between a UV map and a texture map. I was only talking about UV maps. If both axes have a maximum value of 1, it makes sense that the map they form is a square. This is the case with UV. UV coordinates have nothing to do with pixel coordinates just as UV maps could have nothing to do with texture maps. You can define a UV map without a texture map.

That being said, the UV map for the selected polygons of your model looks like the attachment.

I completely understand that you can use rectangular textures with no distortion, but the UV maps that interpret them might as well be square. Suppose a vertex has a UV coordinate of (.5,.5). This is a square coordinate and ONLY when applied to a 2000x1000 image can it be interpreted as (1000,500).

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 12:50 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 12:55
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Alrighty! I think I'm done. Here are a few renders:




Hope you like it
I'll be doing some file format conversion work now and then hopefully get it ready to sell on TurboSquid.

Edit: Thought I'd throw in some fun facts
There are two objects: Sword and Scabbard
- 8 Materials
- 11790 Polygons
- 12178 Vertices
Each object will ship with the following texture maps:
- Diffuse
- Ambient Occlusion
- Normal
- Height (Grayscale)
All textures are 1024x1024
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Asteric
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 14:47
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I think that you need to work on the grey areas a lot more. At the moment it just looks like they have no texture at all. Maybe a bronze/golden, rusted looks would look nice in contrast with the brown leather.

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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 15:02
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I dunno how I feel about rust. This sword is supposed to look new and not used.
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Asteric
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 15:29
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Fair enough, bt still, you need to make the grey area look like some sort of material. Its the only thing holding the model back in my opinion.

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lazerus
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 15:32
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Metal naturally gradients lighter towards the edge due to the reworking and constant sharpening of the blade. They normally have blue hues/ bronzin hues / redish tinges due to the impurities in the metal.

-Con


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
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Quik
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 20:23 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 20:26
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what he said *^^^^^*



whatever, i really looks very very plastic atm, u should make it darker, also maybe make a specular map? and reflection map to make it look more realistic


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Kira Vakaan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 22:52
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@lazerus: Thank you, that was very insightful.

@Quik: I'm not sure what making a specular map would do for me. There are specular settings already specified in the materials. Same goes for a reflection map. The metal parts are reflective, but there's nothing in the scene for them to reflect.
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Isocadia
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:01
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Well, you could make the metal parts more glossy ( like more light reflecting ) and the crystal too.

Isocadia

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Quik
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 23:15
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i really think that making it reflect more light will make it look even more plastic


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