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Geek Culture / Getting a server computer?

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 03:05 Edited at: 4th Aug 2010 03:05
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I want to get better at networking and stuff, and so I think I'm going to buy and build my own midrange server computer. Howev0er, my dad would want me behind my own router if I was to open up ports (I'm not sure if that's too overparanoid 'cuz I have zilch experience in that area), so I would also want to buy a router. I do have a job now, but I still don't have surplus cash (so I can't get something like this)

my idea is to buy all the parts, assemble it (never assembled a computer before), and once the computer is running, try to overclock it (like, by .1 ghz, nothing too daring), set up a server environment, try some server stuff with DBPro, then set up a website and register a domain with the DNS servers (not a clue how to do that one though :\), and then continue to expand webmaster skills like database stuff, javascript, what have you.

However, like I said, I have never built a computer before, and I don't know what's so special about the individual components of a server computer (like, processors are in a different category on newegg. There's the regular, then there's "server" ones). My only clue is that they're all more centered on reliability and speed of the processor and hard drive. Does anyone have any tips?

[edit]
and yeah this is for learning not practicality


Is't life, I ask, is't even prudence, to bore thyself and bore thy students?
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 03:12 Edited at: 4th Aug 2010 03:22
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Surely it would be wise to get good with all the software stuff first, before you sink any money into the hardware?

All the stuff you mentioned can be done on your local machine first.

But, I think server hardware supports more users (not sure how), and probably has more memory slots.
But as I said, for learning and testing, all the software side can be done on your personal machine.


Building a computer is pretty easy, just make sure each component matches the right socked and you should be fine. When you have selected your components, use an online calculator to determine what PSU you will need.



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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 04:16
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Meh, I'm not getting a server for the software tho, and all I have is a laptop right now. I'm interested in learning more about computer setup, while having something practical for what i'd like to learn.

I think I've found a great setup:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.432236
have to look into it a bit more.


Is't life, I ask, is't even prudence, to bore thyself and bore thy students?
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Kryogenik
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 05:09 Edited at: 4th Aug 2010 05:09
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That looks too good to be true IMO. Plus, look at this from the link you gave
Quote: "Newegg.com cannot guarantee the compatibility of Combo items. Please contact the manufacturer(s) directly if you have issues or concerns regarding compatibility."

Like BiggAdd said, make sure all those things are compatible or whatever. And, unless I read it wrong, here's all 6 things it comes with.
Processor
Motherboard
Ram
Power Supply
Hard Drive
Case

What about a graphics card and monitor and cooling system?

Plus, running a website and stuff all the time can be expensive, but if it's only for learning, then whatever.

In conclusion, make sure you know what you're doing, sorry if I'm being annoying

cout<<"I'm learning C++, and this is all I know \n"
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 08:09
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Quote: "Newegg.com cannot guarantee the compatibility of Combo items. Please contact the manufacturer(s) directly if you have issues or concerns regarding compatibility."

yeah I read that :\

Quote: "What about a graphics card and monitor and cooling system?"

the motherboard has an onboard graphics unit, and i can get a monitor locally (craigslist ftw). As for a cooling unit... the processor comes with a fan, and the power supply has a fan. It looks like the case has a built in fan... it says "The side panel can house a 230mm intake fan to drive cool air", but in all the reviews, everyone keeps talking about "the fan".


Is't life, I ask, is't even prudence, to bore thyself and bore thy students?
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charger bandit
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 10:17
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Yes,cooling must be supplied with every processor or graphics card,otherwise it's illegal to sell. That PC is a pretty decent pick,plus the AMD will give you 1ghz overclocking room to fool around with no problems. I have managed 3,5ghz with my Athlon X2 3ghz And count in the cheapest motherboard you can buy.


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Diggsey
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 13:10 Edited at: 4th Aug 2010 13:12
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Make sure you have a high upload speed on your internet connection or it will suck

Standard ADSL just can't cope.

[b]
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BearCDP
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 20:24 Edited at: 4th Aug 2010 20:29
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Here's another vote for holding off on any sort of fancy computer. Like Diggsey said, your standard internet connection will have a horrible upload speed so you won't even be able to use the full potential of a powerful machine. If you'd like to learn about building a computer though, go ahead, it's fun.

Part of networking is the configuration, so I'd recommend learning to set up your own server on an existing computer while you save for the hardware. If you've got an old family computer lying around the house, you can install something like Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora, FreeBSD/NetBSD, or Windows Server 2008 R2 (free if you're a student via Dreamspark).

Try to install somethign basic like a Ventrilo server or SSH and test it on your home network. Then, when you start to open up your server, then you'll be able to start learning about port forwarding and security. Make your server router be the first in the chain connected to your modem. Then, your home's regular modem can be part of your server router's network and keep all the same security settings.

Know what ports your apps need to run in order to communicate with the world (ie: I think Vent just needs 3764). Block all other unnecessary ports in both your router and your server's firewall software. What sort of apps are you gonna try out?

Check out this WIP flash game from the Global Game Jam!
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Asteric
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Posted: 5th Aug 2010 13:38
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I recently got given an apple server, but im no computer wizard so i have absolutely no idea what to do, anyone know how to set one up? Sorry for the slight hijack, just was a waste of time making a new thread.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 6th Aug 2010 23:13
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That depends on what you want to do with it (website, game servers, code repositories, file storage, etc.), and what you've already got installed. Is OSX server already installed on it? And is it an actual Xserve, or just a computer with the server software/OSX Server installed?

Check out this WIP flash game from the Global Game Jam!
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The Next
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Posted: 9th Aug 2010 15:24 Edited at: 9th Aug 2010 15:28
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Oh OSX servers are horrible stick with either Windows or Linux, Apple is simply awful in the server department.

I have got 3 servers myself and have set them all up from teh ground up and it isn't easy to learn how to do it you will find many issues along the way here are my top tips.

1) Start on your local PC, servers are expensive and you can run a server on any Windows XP Home or later OS using IIS.
2) As for opening ports on your router you should not have to do this most routers come with port 80 open already and that is the port that is used for web servers it is safe for you to run a server with port 80 open. If you do start heading into opening other ports maybe for a mail server you can usually be safe doing it so long as you have a firewall.
3) Read many tutorials before even starting you will find them invaluable in setting up the server.
4) Invest in a domain name with a host that gives Free DNS management this will mean that you can concentrate on your server and not with the hard stuff to do with DNS and setting up a DNS server.
5) I suggest for a beginner that you stick with a Windows OS, Linux is great and i have a server using it but if your used to Windows making the leap to Linux can be terribly hard.
6) I 100% do not suggest you buy a server and host it at home it is a waste of money, ISP for normal households do not give you the speeds required to run a server and will throttle you back if they see extensive port 80 usage. You will waste your money buying the server when your ISP slows you down. I suggest using a reliable data center like i do and host your server in their facility this will give you large data allowances and is very cheap you will find.
7) when buying a server get the right OS for the job don't buy a PC with the intention of using it as a server and buy a normal windows package get Windows Server 2003 or 2008 they can be costly but you will appreciate the advantages.
8) Always run a server with 64bit if you can support it with your hardware.
9) Good Luck and if you want help email me.

This was typed fast so please excuse any mistakes or bad grammar.

EDIT
10) Another down side of hosting a server in your home is you do not have power redundancy, no network redundancy and no fire protection.

Mystic Mod - Putting the fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
Windows 7 Pro, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, 4GB DDR3, Dual nvidia SLI 9800GT 1GB, 1.5TB Hard disk
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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Aug 2010 18:31 Edited at: 9th Aug 2010 18:32
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Hosting a server at home is great for personal reasons though. I use one for development and file storage (I'm up to 2TB on an LVM with one more drive slot available on the existing hardware, can't wait to buy one of them new 2 tb drives, then I think I'll setup a mirrored LVM raid array)

It's nice developing on a real linux server that you can configure however you like.

That said, home internet lines are not good for hosting production sites, and could be against your ISP agreement.

For about 100 bucks a month, my ISP offered 10mbps pipe with unlimited bandwidth and a couple dedicated IPs and I could host servers on it. It's too pricey for me, but that might be something to look into if you forecast your hosting costs to be higher otherwise.

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The Next
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Posted: 9th Aug 2010 18:37
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Yes i agree home servers have their uses if you are using it a file sharing server for family and friends or just yourself. I have a very small server (more of a 3 year old piece of junk of a PC converted into a server) that allows me to access my files from any PC in my house and also has remote connection so i can fetch files when I'm away.

A home server may be just what you need but for a production site that is accessed by people you don't know from worldwide locations its not very good practise and your ISP will come down on you like a tonne of bricks.

Linux servers are cheap to run they are very adaptable to any role but they are not for beginners that have not used linux before.

Mystic Mod - Putting the fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
Windows 7 Pro, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, 4GB DDR3, Dual nvidia SLI 9800GT 1GB, 1.5TB Hard disk
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JoelJ
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Posted: 10th Aug 2010 00:40
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I would buy a mac mini and install Ubuntu Server on it.

Cheap, small, and powerful enough for what you'll be doing.

Your mother has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120
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BearCDP
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Posted: 10th Aug 2010 23:25
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One more vote for a home server here.

I don't use port 80 or 25 at all, since my ISP will likely kill my family's connection. If I'm serving up a website, it's always with SSL on port 443. I don't bother with a paid certificate, since the site is usually a few info pages for myself and friends to get info about using other services on the server like file back up and source control. The only other big web server thing I've been thinking about trying has been to get Trac or Redmine running with a git repo.


I'm pretty sure you could build a better computer new for the same price as a used Mac Mini though.

Check out this WIP flash game from the Global Game Jam!
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Aug 2010 03:14
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:\ I can't decide now... but... I still have to save up the money...


Is't life, I ask, is't even prudence, to bore thyself and bore thy students?
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The Next
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Posted: 11th Aug 2010 10:51 Edited at: 11th Aug 2010 10:51
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Don't go for a MAC they are awful they cost double what a PC with the same specs does. You can't update the hardware easily (if at all) Apple can't help but rip you off with some crappy software you don't need, paying £649.00 for a MAC mini with a 2.4Ghz processor and 2GB of RAM is day light robbery, you can get the same for a PC or linux server for around £200 if not less if you know where to look.

The apple fans will come back with some crappy excuse but it doesn't fix the fact you are spending double for everything for something that is no better than a PC.

Mystic Mod - Putting the fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 13th Aug 2010 23:53 Edited at: 14th Aug 2010 03:31
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So, i've looked into it more... and I guess I can't really host a website at home with my family's current plan. So, I at least want to try to create a decent website.

On a kind of unrelated note, Some person in my city made $35,000 from age 15 to 18 by hosting a website, putting flash games he made on it, and then having ads on it. I already had something like this in the back of my mind, but now I really want to implement something like this.
The most successful sites like this I've seen have a forum, users with accounts, and the ability to pay for in-game items.

I'm thinking about using this site:
http://order.1and1.com/xml/order/Hosting

But I'm not even sure what plan I'd have to get. Obviously I'd be dealing with accounts, so I'd have to have something secure. I know I could use paypal or something for payment things, so I wouldn't have to be handling confidential information, but I would need an activation key system. Would that necessitate SSL encryption?

I mean, I'm not expecting to do this overnight, and I have a lot to learn before I have anything to show for my efforts, but I don't want to spend hours learning about something I can't implement at all.

[edit]

actually... i'm going to look around some more for a different web hosting company, start learning html/javascript/what have you, and work out what's feasible and what isn't from there.


Is't life, I ask, is't even prudence, to bore thyself and bore thy students?
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bitJericho
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Posted: 14th Aug 2010 16:25
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What I'd do is setup a website on your own computer or a vm or a home server, and get your site running how you like it, then you'll know what you need, and you can buy appropriate hosting for it.

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The Next
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Posted: 15th Aug 2010 13:07
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@Neuro Fuzzy

I had a 1&1 hosting account when i was starting out and they are the worst host ever the reviews are awful they stole over £100 for me when i cancelled my account as my site kept going down they refused to refund me anything saying it was not a legitimate reason to cancel.

My recommendation is to go with Justhost.com they are widely regarded as the best for shared hosting and way cheaper that 1&1.

As for SSL encryption no you don't need that at all that is for if you are processing payments a login system with SSL is just wasted money unless your site is a large hacking target.

Mystic Mod - Putting the fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
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sprite
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Posted: 15th Aug 2010 20:28
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I use an apache its good for small companies and home bussiness as its free, very powerful. I use it for file sharing area as I lot of work that if my mac book pro got nicked would leave me high and dry. I have to code for mac and pc its part of the contract.

It depends largely on what your doing.

If its just a simple online file share area for you should talk to your local uni they will at some point replace there old servers with new ones.

After all I only need it to accept a pw and upload\download stuff. We're not exactly talking taxing here so I got give an old single core machine. I got a UPS and a few tapes with it and they gave it away for the mass cost of 4 beers.

The SSL is really only for selling stuff and getting confidential details. Personal just have a paypal account like most people in the small bussiness. Ok your be charged for each transaction but look at it in another way. People know your safe to use and not a scam. In the UK the data protection act is not something to mess around with. Unless you have half a bil and 2 years free jail time.

On the Mac vs PC debate the cost yep got the say apple macs cost more. There is one mac maker and hundreds of PC makers its a closed market for macs so they can charge larger amounts for them. Yes I wish that it could be like the PC market and get more sellers.

Upgrading the hardware is possible but you really need to have hardware training which in the UK £2500 for the course so you can have access to buy the parts. Its 8 days of non stop learning and renewal each year at a costs of £250. This means everyone has the same training and everyone is up to same standard.

Some of the good things about macs.

Only a mac can make an Ipod/phone/pad apps. Yes you can code but not send in a finished built on a PC.

Its an up and coming market for devs. Most devs use to make only for windows because the cost was too little gain for macs. Now macs are becoming far more popualar than they were in the past. Programming for Both OSs are becoming profitable but theres more money in mac. Due to less devs, big names ect.

Preload software and this is where mac make a saving no 30 day limited software. All that crap they add to the laptop norton/macfee, 30 day microsoft office plus any other software your just uninstall as soon as you can.


@The Next you said "Apple can't help but rip you off with some crappy software you don't need".

Please explain this as it could be said for a lot of Microsofts wares too.

I'll add something later on.
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Indicium
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Posted: 15th Aug 2010 21:35
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Ms don't try sell people OSX

I crack myself up at times

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gamerboots
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Posted: 18th Aug 2010 22:00
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You can pay $80 to secure a domain for 10 years,invest a little time getting your stuff ready and your ready to go ! Its so much easier to have someone else host things for you and there are a lot of places that will do it FREE !
My site might not be pretty , but atleast its there , and I dont have to worry about maintaining a server or any of that. All I have to worry about is doing a quick update of the website files and upload them whitch does not much time at all

----------------
Gamerboots~
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