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Geek Culture / Important read: Software patents are threatening our hobby

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informant
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 07:10
Since we are all software developers here, I think it is important that I bring up the issue of software patents. For those of you that may not know, patents allow you to have a monopoly on an invention or idea. Now I will give you a perfect example of why this is bad news for software.

We all know that tgc will be releasing the app game kit allowing us to develop apps for hand held devices. In the US, a company called Lodsys holds a patent for in-app purchases. That means that if you develop an app and want to sell things through your application, legally, you need a licence from Lodsys to do so (how ridiculous is that?). Lodsys has sued 7 developers that featured in-app sales on Apple's iphone because they did not obtain a license from them. Apple holds a licence form Lodsys and argues that it allows their developers the rights to sell in-app. Lodsys disagress and insists that each developer must purchase a licence from them. Lodsys has also targeted Google`s Android. Lodsys itself does not even develop software, they are what is known as a `patent troll`. They own a patent and wait for someone to voilate it so they can sue. You can get more information on this blog: http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/05/lodsys-sues-7-app-developers-in-eastern.html

If any of these developers decide to defend themselves in court it will be extremely expensive. If they do not show up in court, they will be automatically guilty. The problem for software is that the most trivial things get patented. There are patents for ways of registering software, certain website layouts, networking, etc. Idiotic laws like these are making it virtually impossible to write a piece of software in the United States without violating some patent. The best part is that the onus is on you, the developer, to know if are violating a patent or not in.

If you do not live in the US, you might argue this doesn`t effect you. However, if you want to market your software in the US, you must conform to their patent laws or you might be facing a lawsuit and owe money to some legalised extortionest like Lodsys. Not to mention, major corporations are pushing to legalise software patents in Europe. In Canada they are not accepted, but that may change soon if Amazon`s one click patent goes through with the federal court of appeal.

Make no mistake, this is not a trivial problem for us software developers. Moronic laws that allow patents on things that never should have been patented can become a threat for small developers. I am writing all this because we must all stand together to not let our freedoms be eroded or else one day you will need a patent license just to turn your computer on.
DJ Almix
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 08:00
How can they get away with this though, when it's such a widely used service and not really a "new" idea?

[center]
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 08:26
This just made me mad. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a patent troll. But it's a troll, so I hate it. I hate troll, troll is stupid.

AKA Jenkins
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 09:19
Yeah... My dad has been talking about stuff like that. You can even patent algorithms for stuff, so if one company made a program that used an /algorithm/ another company developed, then they could be sued. It's incredibly stupid.


Why does blue text appear every time you are near?
Jeku
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 09:19
Quote: "I am writing all this because we must all stand together to not let our freedoms be eroded or else one day you will need a patent license just to turn your computer on."


Oh, please. A little bit of an exaggeration?

I agree with patents if they are a unique idea. If I invent a new way to do something that hasn't been done before, I should expect some kind of remuneration if a company takes my idea or wants to license it. An idea is only "obvious" when everyone starts using it. Why are they called trolls just because the ideas are good and people want to use them?


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TheComet
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 09:22
I have patented the load object command. It is my function now. MINE I SAY!! MIIINNEEEE!! I'M GOING TO SUE ALL OF YOU NOW!! MUAAHAHAWAAHAAHAAAA!!!!

TheComet

Plystire
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 09:28
Quote: "Why are they called trolls just because the ideas are good and people want to use them?"


Because they only obtained the patents to make this sort of money off of them. The patents in question are also "generalized" to the point that they can be interpreted to the holder's content and sue under varying extremities.

Though, Lodsys sounds like it hasn't caused nearly as much trouble as MacroSolve has (Also mentioned in the linked article).


Quote: "A little bit of an exaggeration?"


Hardly. This company sued a developer for making a Texas Hold'em app for iOS.... seriously? These infringment claims are approaching the realm of infringing upon rights. Someone really does need to convince the USPTO to revoke these rediculous patents.

As the article writer stated, one of the patents here claims to be an invention that HTML itself has been serving all along! If this opens them up to start suing random website owners, I'm grabbing my shotgun.


~Plystire

Only those who sow the seeds of their desires will reap their benefits later.
However, I have seeds of my own to tend to. I don't have time to be someone else's watering can.
Quik
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 10:00
this is basicly the only reason why i would vote for "the pirateparty" (swedish political party) since they dont like patents at all, and netiher do I, they also want to reduce medical patents and bla bla bla

anyway, I believe the system that we have, called copyright, works perfectly fine in terms of software.

and for the record, I am a man.

Benjamin
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 11:08 Edited at: 30th Jun 2011 20:48
Money money money.



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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 11:19
The only thing I don't like about patents is they allow scientists to patent human genes. Obviously they didn't invent humans so how can this be allowed?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/genes/

Phaelax
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 12:01 Edited at: 30th Jun 2011 12:22
Patents are ridiculous but only because the US patent office is a complete and utter joke who grant them to anyone without even bothering to read them. Did you know MS has a patent on double-clicking the mouse?

Maybe of Lodsys explained a specific method or security measure for in-game purchases I'd say the patent is legit. But if it's just as generic as saying, hey I have an idea let's sell stuff within games, then that never should have been awarded a patent.


Quote: "You can even patent algorithms for stuff, "

Again, I don't see anything wrong with that. If you came up with a unique algorithm which sets your product apart from others (think Google search indexing) then I say it's unique enough to be patented. But I bet if I filed a patent explaining the process of adding two numbers together would equal in a single positive result, as generic as it sounds I'm willing to bet our office would grant that right now.

Someone has a patent on a usb drive shaped like a cross!


Quote: "The patent covered any of three ways to disable a signaling pathway involved in the immune response, and would have enabled its licensee, Ariad Pharmaceuticals, to go after companies that already have drugs on the market. The court held, however, that simply specifying different ways of interfering with a protein without any written description of how to do so constituted insufficient grounds for granting a patent."

Good, make them be specific! But even if he was awarded this patent I don't think he should be able to go after companies who obviously discovered it first. It should only be enforceable to incidences after the patent was filed (not awarded, but filed).


I think patents, while protecting some individuals from being ripped off of their invention, can also hurt technology advancements. Apple is constantly suing companies over iphone patents. While multi-touch was never "their" idea, they did develop good method of doing it and actually brought it to the mainstream market which made multi-touch popular.

Destrugter 1
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 12:19
Quote: "But I bet if I filed a patent explaining the process of adding two numbers together would equal in a single positive result, as generic as it sounds I'm willing to bet our office would grant that right now."


I'm willing to bet they wouldn't grant the patent. I'm willing to bet that someone has already tried this, and failed horribly.

I agree with some patents. Like what you said Phaelax, if they provided a unique way to make in game purchases, and you use their method.

Just like I would agree if someone filed a patent (this is assuming they haven't) for the way most online stores are setup and executed. Now if they say, patented the idea of an online store, that I don't agree with.

Didn't Microsoft attempt to patent the use of 0s and 1s for use in Operating Systems? I'm pretty sure that didn't pass. If it did, everyone take your money out of your banks and pretend you don't have anything for them to take from you (burn your house down too).

My name is Brian.
BatVink
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 12:46
There is a big problem at the moment because of the lack of understanding of computing systems by the Patent Office in the 1980s. They allowed the patenting of many ideas/concepts that today they would reject given their updated understanding.

A large percentage of computer-logic based patents are being overturned ( >50% I believe) where they are challenged. The Patent Trolls work on the theory that the number they win generate revenue > those that are challenged. Unfortunately you need to be a cash-cow of a company to challenge them.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 12:59
While we're on the subject of trolls, is it significant that the original poster joined yesterday?
The Slayer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 13:03
Quote: "is it significant that the original poster joined yesterday?"

Yeah, and his name is 'informant'. Weird?

baxslash
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 13:11
I feel sorry for the trolls, they are hated by everybody! Imagine how they feel, poor saps. There they are trying to make a living and everyone gives them a hard time cause all they're good at is taking credit for other people's ideas...

...no wait. I hate trolls too. Trolls are stupid! What kind of idiot lives under a bridge anyways! Stupid goat eaters...

Seriously though I'm not worried, can you tell?

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 13:13
Quote: "Again, I don't see anything wrong with that."


I suppose I did mean for less specific stuff. All I mean is that something like the patent on the marching cubes algorithm is over the top. It'd be like if someone had patented quicksort.


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TheComet
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 13:45
Quote: "What kind of idiot lives under a bridge anyways! Stupid goat eaters..."


seen my location?

TheComet

baxslash
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 13:49
Quote: "seen my location?"

I bet it's hard to get insurance living under there

Hodgey
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 14:26
Quote: "seen my location?"

You should get a patent on that

On a more serious note I think that some of these patents are ridiculous. I can understand patents for some aspects of software but things that have become generic overtime (like double-clicking) should have their patents overturned.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 14:31
There wouldn't be app released today that doesn't step on somebody's patent.

Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 16:56 Edited at: 30th Jun 2011 16:57
The IBM culture is to patent software ideas. I believe they have over 100,000 software patents. Their strategy is to use them as leverage to allow fair competition. So if someone goes over to IBM and says "Hey Pal! Stop making your software because you're kind of copying our idea!" then IBM can usually turn around and say "Well, you're using 15 of our patents software innovations in your flagship product, so let's call it even".

I don't see much of a problem with that strategy, but one where you simply dream up and idea, spend a day fleshing out a lawyer pleasing description, and then file it, with the intention to sue people layer on, is unfair.

But I have two other thoughts (Yes, just two! ) Firstly, I doubt these cases are as simple as "In App sales", since to me that is not innovative and far to broad to be patented. I would expect it is something far more defined.

And secondly, I don't know how expensive it is to defend yourself in court. If someone summons you to court, you can just turn up by yourself. You don't need legal representation. Let them have their day and rip you apart from hot shot lawyers, but they'll only win if their case has merit. I don't care how smart you are and how much you pay someone - if you go to court and sue me for a million for wearing socks, on the grounds that you own a monkey that can juggle apples ... you're not going to win, even if I sit there twiddling my coconuts. My point being, the judge will have some common sense, and if it's fairly obvious they're taking the piss, they will lose, hot shot lawyers or not.

baxslash
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 17:10 Edited at: 30th Jun 2011 17:11
Quote: "if you go to court and sue me for a million for wearing socks, on the grounds that you own a monkey that can juggle apples ... you're not going to win, even if I sit there twiddling my coconuts. My point being, the judge will have some common sense, and if it's fairly obvious they're taking the p***, they will lose, hot shot lawyers or not."

Love it!

Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 21:07 Edited at: 30th Jun 2011 21:14
If lodsys are not a software developer, what did they do to gain a patent on micro-transactions?
Could I patent the idea of a hover board? Then on the off-chance someone actually figures out how to make one I can then sue the pants off them for stealing my idea!

I find it hard to believe that you could patent something so general as micro-transactions.

I hereby patent the action of sucking liquid through a straw (via machine, mechanically or orally). You must obtain a licence from me before using my method of liquid transportation.

Jeku
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 23:59 Edited at: 1st Jul 2011 00:00
Quote: "Because they only obtained the patents to make this sort of money off of them."


Um, who wouldn't patent something to not make money from it? I don't understand Isn't that capitalism?

It costs tens of thousands of dollars to patent something, per country.

I don't like silly patents as much as the next guy, but there ARE unique patented ideas in the software industry that are pretty good, so I would have trouble supporting any kind of ban on them Just because someone can abuse the system, doesn't mean the entire system needs to be shut down!


Software Engineer - Metamoki
Fallout
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 00:07
You couldn't patent the idea of a hover board, but you could patent the invention of the device which makes it hover, if you could explain it technically. You'd never have to make it, and if your technical explanation had enough depth and accuracy that, when someone finally did make one, it closely mirrored your design, you could sue the pants of them! It's the same way Dyson hasn't parented a vacuum cleaner (that's too vague), but instead patented his invention of the cyclonic motor element, or whatever it is.

It's the same with code. I would guess you cannot patent "In-app transactions". That is way too vague and is not novel. But if you came up with some clever novel way of using A and B with X and then Y, to get Z, you could patent that.

Another thing with patents is, if it's ever been done before by anybody, you cannot patent it. It's considered public domain. So you could never patent the idea of a hoverboard anyway, since it's clearly been demonstrated before in Back To the Future, and is therefore public domain!

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 00:46
Quote: "It's considered public domain."


you'd think so... but....

informant
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 18:28
[quote ]"Firstly, I doubt these cases are as simple as "In App sales", since to me that is not innovative and far to broad to be patented. I would expect it is something far more defined."]

Well the problem is that, esentially, it is that simple! Not to mention many of these patents are purposely worded very vaugley in legalese in order to cover as many applications of the patent as possible. Because of this there are cases where two patents cover the same ideas, even though this is not supposed to happen! This is why I am bringing all this to light to show you how the justice system is being taken advantage of and how poorly the patent office reviews many patents.

[quote "You don't need legal representation. Let them have their day and rip you apart from hot shot lawyers, but they'll only win if their case has merit."]

Good luck with that. Remember, the case does have merit because the patent is legal. Therefore, the onus is on you to convince the jury that the patent is invalid, without some hotshot lawyers of your own that can be hard. Don't think that the judge will automatically just dismiss the patent because remember, it is patented and legal, and in court it becomes all about the law and nothing to do with justice.
informant
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 18:36
[quote "Um, who wouldn't patent something to not make money from it? I don't understand Isn't that capitalism?"]

I'm not saying I am against the patent system but there has to be higher standards. Many software patents are on things that many programmers would consider to be simple and obvious. When it comes to the point where you can't write a program without infringing upon many patents, there is something wrong. The standards for approving software patents must become SIGNIFICANTLY higher. You should only be able to patent something that is of sufficient complexity, not something you just thought of while taking a shower.
Plystire
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 02:00 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2011 02:07
Quote: "Um, who wouldn't patent something to not make money from it? I don't understand Isn't that capitalism?"


Lemme emphasize the key words in that quote for you:
Quote: "Because they only obtained the patents to make this sort of money off of them."


"this sort" as in money made from lawsuits. Capitalism has nothing to do with this. This is troll behavior, it should be discouraged.


Quote: "So you could never patent the idea of a hoverboard anyway, since it's clearly been demonstrated before in Back To the Future, and is therefore public domain!"


This is false. Simply because an imaginary invention was portrayed in a scifi film, does not relieve said invention of patentability. If you actually MAKE ONE in REALITY and you are the first to do so, you may patent it.

Example: If I made a nano-suit, providing the same functionality as those in Crysis... I could patent it, because the ones in crysis are imaginary while mine is real and I was the first. (Not that I would bother patenting the thing as anyone disputing my invention would get knocked to the moon... literally )


Quote: "I don't know how expensive it is to defend yourself in court. If someone summons you to court, you can just turn up by yourself. You don't need legal representation. Let them have their day and rip you apart from hot shot lawyers, but they'll only win if their case has merit. I don't care how smart you are and how much you pay someone - if you go to court and sue me for a million for wearing socks, on the grounds that you own a monkey that can juggle apples ... you're not going to win, even if I sit there twiddling my coconuts."


First of all, I got that this is highly sarcastic, but in all seriousness, in the US even if you don't hire a lawyer you still have to pay for court fees, which can still be fairly costly. Twiddling your coconuts without a providing defense is only putting a target on your head saying "I know I'm infringing on their patent, I'm just here to waste them more money" and any lawyer worth their salt would play right into that. All in all, you can say you'd play it cool and be stupi-- "clever" about the lawsuit, but you'd likely just get chewed up by an arrogant judge that doesn't want to see an arrogant kid sitting in their courtroom making a mockery of it all.


I've filed for patents before. Regardless what people here may think, they don't just hand out patents all willy nilly. I've filed for a patent with so much complex mumbo jumbo, I was afraid they'd turn it down for being too big to bother reading, when in actuality, it was turned down because they read the entire thing and found it to be "lacking" in content, both in design and in general detail. Now, keep in mind these companies obtained their patents much further back than when I filed for mine, things may have been different. Just saying, you can't just write "This is called 'ADDITION'. 1+1=2", send it into the patent office and get a patent for it.

On another note, many of the large companies *coughmicrosoftcough* hold patents that they know very well could be overturned if challenged, and thus they don't make big deals out of them unless they knew that it wouldn't bring much attention to themselves by an entity that had the means TO challenge them, and would normally use them as nameless leverage as someone stated above.

I'm all for patents, but this trolling needs to be put to rest. I don't care who does it, or what weapon they use... just do it.


~Plystire

Only those who sow the seeds of their desires will reap their benefits later.
However, I have seeds of my own to tend to. I don't have time to be someone else's watering can.
Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 02:46
Quote: "You should only be able to patent something that is of sufficient complexity, not something you just thought of while taking a shower."


I disagree with that. The paper clip is incredibly simple, but it is an awesome invention. If I think of the next paperclip while in the shower, I should be able to make millions from it.

Quote: "This is troll behavior, it should be discouraged."


How is that troll behaviour, when non-software patents aren't? If someone has a patent on vacuum cleaners, shouldn't he be able to sue anyone in the future that doesn't license his patent? That's no trolling! That's why the patent system was invented in the first place, so nobody can just steal your ideas!

Nobody can define what makes a patent troll and what makes a regular patent holder who is in it for the money.

Quote: "If I made a nano-suit, providing the same functionality as those in Crysis... I could patent it, because the ones in crysis are imaginary while mine is real and I was the first."


By your own definition, would you not be trolling this nano-suit patent if you wanted to protect others from ripping you off?


Software Engineer - Metamoki
BMacZero
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 04:03
Regardless of "intention" behind the patent or any other junk like that, those patents are absolutely ridiculous! Go read them, they're even more broad than most people seem to think. For example, one of them covers any system comprised of two "commidities" with "user interfaces" that communicate with each other and send the results of the communication to a "central location". I think someone at the patent office didn't have enough coffee that day.

xplosys
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 06:03
Some companies apply for and often get vague or wide ranging patents for the purpose of suing anyone who might infringe upon it and not to use for themselves. It's no different than a company that buys up land where they know the next growth will be, or registering domain names for the purpose of selling them rather than using them. It's all just squatting.

A patent is not written in stone. It just gives you grounds to sue someone who might infringe upon it. You'll still have to win your case. Many times, patents are challenged in court and overturned or voided. The more frivolous or wide reaching the patent is, the more likely it will be challenged.

Brian.

informant
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 06:05
Quote: "The paper clip is incredibly simple, but it is an awesome invention."


At least the paperclip is a real invention. But many software patents boil down to "ways of doing things" (eg. Amazon's one click patent) rather than being actual inventions. Amazon's patent makes use of something that has already been ivented (ie. the computer). So what did they "invent" in their patent, storing customer's information in a cookie? That is just a way of using a computer, but there is no new invention. You don't patent "a way of using a paperclip", but rather the paperclip itself.
sprite
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 17:01
More news apple moves to intervene in lawsuit case.

linky

So apple are trying to block the case.

I'll add something later on.
DeadTomGC
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 21:04
This sounds ridiculous. People are getting patents on ideas like selling though an app? That is not a real invention! It is one thing if you patent a way of selling though apps like some sort of new online credit system, but to patent the idea in general should be impossible.
I guess this goes to show how little people know about computers these days.


MrValentine
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2011 05:06
So this means I cant use direct payment, but how about Coupons? similar to WoW codes for subscriptions?

like we could sell credit for in game items perhaps? [crap did I air that out too loud?]

In my example here... it makes no sense... as one mentioned a petent to turn on your computer... I actually thought of that one a few years back when first learning of patents in business studies... yeah I went on a pricey business studies course a few years back... and funny enough I knew everything apart from the patent stuff... I was annoyed for several weeks...

So as in my example how the heck do I know that I have infrinnged on someones patent when all I wanna do is make something that'just works' and get it out there... to basically sue me right from the off seams a little daft and selfish and down right rude... at least say to me, 'hey we found you stepped over our territory, so were offering you the chance to pay us a little in some way for our licence, if our asking price of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is too much for you perhaps we could discuss other means of payment perhaps a % or something of your total sales...' this I would be more happy to pay up to as long as there was enough SOLID CREAL EVIDENCE that i was stepping over the border... or simply ask that I allow myself to remove that feature... as all you need to do is remove it from the game... but they might be little babies and retaliate... argh I give up on this its causing me more head pain...

Long story short... Lodys, having never 'Created' something that includes their patent, should have no power, regardless of their patent being legitimate or not. but this seems to be an american issue... can we figure out the Doom of us Brits here? how does this affect us here? it seams this only affects US Devs... another thing I wanna know is... if i produce something for Android... can I block US users from downloading it?

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