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Geek Culture / The Basic Binary Box: A Gaming Console

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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 03:48
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Quote: "And also, if anyone wants to suggest ideas for a possible limited edition B3 in the future, please tell me your ideas!"


I was thinking maybe a choice of colour for the console and controls and maybe a few extra things to make it really feel like your own console ha A few B3 logo stickers would be awesome!


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 04:00 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2011 04:22
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Quote: "How about a clear case with a bunch of LED flashing lights as different buttons are pressed?"
Haha you read my mind! The console will have a clear case and will be RGB LED lit and the game will be able to control the LED's! Also, the controller's case will be clear and buttons will light up in the controller accordingly to what you press.

Quote: "I was thinking maybe a choice of colour for the console and controls and maybe a few extra things to make it really feel like your own console ha A few B3 logo stickers would be awesome!"
You also read my mind! I love the idea of color choice and stickers! Maybe it would be like the N64 Funtastic series with all the colors! Maybe in the limited edition i would include 20 games as opposed to 10.


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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 04:43
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Quote: "You also read my mind! I love the idea of color choice and stickers! Maybe it would be like the N64 Funtastic series with all the colors! Maybe in the limited edition i would include 20 games as opposed to 10."


Awesome! Any ideas on what games you'll include?


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 05:52
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Hmmm... So for for the regular console i have Basic Racer, which will obviously be a racing game, Lazer Blazer which will be a laser tag game, Crazy Pong which will be a pong game with cool features and Pixel will be a platform game with Pixel as the main character in the shape of a square!


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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 06:02
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Sounds great. If you need any ideas, just let me know.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 08:05 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2011 08:06
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Yes, ideas for games would be awesome!! Just make sure to keep in mind that i cant make any 3D games as my console wont support 3D...

Check this out:



The final version of the console may be quite a bit smaller than you see here, but this is the look im going for.


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Design Runner
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 08:07
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Reminds me of the play station 1. I like it!
Quote: "i cant make any 3D games as my console wont support 3D."

Would raycasting still be possible? 2.5d?

[url=www.designrunner.webs.com][/url]
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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 08:14
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That's awesome man!

Quote: "Yes, ideas for games would be awesome!!"


Sweet, I'll let you know when I've got something. How about a game like this? http://www.desktopdungeons.net/


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 09:53
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Quote: "I like it! "
Quote: "That's awesome man! "
Thanks guys!
Quote: "Would raycasting still be possible? 2.5d?"
Raycasting?? I cant imagine it would have enough computational power! However it would definitely be possible to do that from within the code, just it would be much slower as it would be getting done on the CPU and not the GPU that way. As for 2.5D, yes! Really 2.5D is 2D made to look 3D, so the amount of 3Dness the artist can put in the 2D environment is the limit to how 3D it would look!

Quote: "Sweet, I'll let you know when I've got something. How about a game like this? http://www.desktopdungeons.net/"
Hmmm, i tried to install it two times and it wouldnt then i tried to watch a YT video of it but i cant seem to figure out what it's about!


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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 09:57
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Quote: "Hmmm, i tried to install it two times and it wouldnt then i tried to watch a YT video of it but i cant seem to figure out what it's about!"


Damn It's an old school RPG where you choose a class ect. Then explore a dungeon and try and get the most points without dying and stuff. It's quite fun, + it's 2D!


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 12:14
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That's definitely a style of game i could make! Maybe you can come up with some specifics and i might include that with the console.


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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 13:11
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Quote: "That's definitely a style of game i could make! Maybe you can come up with some specifics and i might include that with the console."


Sure! I could put a design document together and some ideas if you want help with it. It'd be great fun.


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Code eater
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 17:26
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The LEDs which change depending on button presses should be optional as you may not want your opposition knowing e.g on FIFA taking a penalty yOu don't want yOur opponent knowing which way to send their keeper...

Also what kinda of cNnectivity will this thing have? Any wireless? USB? Serial? Or is it entirely stand alone?

If pots and pans were "if"s and "and"s there would be no work for programmer's hands...
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Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 17:30
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Quote: "USB? "


I was also wondering about that.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 21:44
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Quote: "Sure! I could put a design document together and some ideas if you want help with it. It'd be great fun."
That sounds awesome man!

Quote: "The LEDs which change depending on button presses should be optional as you may not want your opposition knowing e.g on FIFA taking a penalty yOu don't want yOur opponent knowing which way to send their keeper..."
Good point! I will probably add a switch on the bottom of the controller then.

Quote: "Also what kinda of cNnectivity will this thing have? Any wireless? USB? Serial? Or is it entirely stand alone?"
Hmm, i might consider USB for connection... But i will include a PS/2 interface on the console so you could connect a keyboard and a mouse, and that way you could just program right on the console. That means you dont have to bring your game over to the console each time you want to test it.


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Indicium
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 00:03
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Who still uses PS/2?

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 00:11
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What is PS/2?

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 00:55
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It is (or i guess was) the standard interface for connecting keyboards and mice to computers!


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 01:19
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What about USBs?

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monotonic
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 01:57
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Ok, I don't want to offend you here, but...

You're talking about designing and building your own console, with your own programming language thrown into the mix. I would seriously consider actually getting some of those things working before even letting superficial things like how it's going to look or what games your going to have cross your mind.

Get a breadboard, do some prototyping, get some of the basic subsystems working.

I don't think you fully appreciate the mammoth task that lay before you.

01100001 01101110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010
01110000 01101111 01101001 01101110 01110100 01101100 01100101 01110011
01110011 01110011 01101001 01100111
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 25th Jul 2011 03:42 Edited at: 25th Jul 2011 03:46
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Quote: "What about USBs?"
Haha i have decided that is what ill use.

Quote: "Ok, I don't want to offend you here, but...

You're talking about designing and building your own console, with your own programming language thrown into the mix. I would seriously consider actually getting some of those things working before even letting superficial things like how it's going to look or what games your going to have cross your mind.

Get a breadboard, do some prototyping, get some of the basic subsystems working.

I don't think you fully appreciate the mammoth task that lay before you.
"
You are one of many who have told me this! And i have told all of them this: I will make sure critical things work before moving on. I will get sub systems on a PCB working first, then i will make sure they work together. Only after everything is working properly will i get a case and other things for the console and make games, etc. One of the main reasons i do a lot of this 'what it's gonna look like' and 'what games ill make for it' are simply so i can think about them as i do other things so when i need to do those, im fully ready. So dont worry, im making sure to keep from getting ahead of myself.
Quote: "I don't think you fully appreciate the mammoth task that lay before you."
I definitely do, but it is ok because i have been doing research on this kinda stuff for around two years now. I am anticipating a difficult but fun journey designing this.


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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Jul 2011 12:03
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Sorry DBD79, I'm going to have to side with monotonic on this subject. A good metaphor for this is a n00b trying to make an MMORPG. You may have researched things for 2 years, and you may have some basic knowledge on how things work, but you lack the practical know-how. In theory, you may have your ultimate design, but there is quite a thick line drawn between theoretical electronics, and practical electronics. Practical transistors don't behave like theoretical transistors.

Though to be fair, there was this one noob that did end up making the MMORPG... He's very well known on these forums, and is well respected. Want to know who he is? His name is zzz, and he made SoulHunter.

Don't believe me? Read through the first few pages of that thread, and tell me I'm wrong.

Even though I doubt you ever finishing this project, I am still going to support you where I can Can you do me a favour though? Please draw your schematic diagrams according to the norm, because I did not understand anything from that last one Use one of those free drawing tools, or just look up on how components are drawn correctly. It takes 5 minutes of your time, and saves many minutes and headaches for me

TheComet

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 25th Jul 2011 23:42 Edited at: 26th Jul 2011 01:19
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I do understand that practical components dont behave like theoretical components, and i have taken these things into consideration. I know capacitors discharge over time, resistors change resistance from heat, diodes have a forwards voltage drop and reverse current flow when conduction in the forward direction ends, MOSFETS have a body effect and their gates have a capacitance, switches need to be debounced, etc.
Quote: "Even though I doubt you ever finishing this project, I am still going to support you where I can"
Haha thanks. I am extremely confident that i will complete this project!
Quote: "Can you do me a favour though? Please draw your schematic diagrams according to the norm, because I did not understand anything from that last one Use one of those free drawing tools, or just look up on how components are drawn correctly. It takes 5 minutes of your time, and saves many minutes and headaches for me "
Yes, i could do that. Haha yah, that last one i didnt make clear, in the future i will make sure to make things as clear as possible.

Also designing with IC's should be easier than with individual components. As long as i make sure to follow the datasheet, i shall be fine!! Correct me if im wrong please. Most of the data sheets i see do have graphs that obviously account for the practical characteristics of the component


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 00:30
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So i just wanted to see if anyone knew, would it really take out that much performance in my console if i did decide to have an operating system running along with the games? I would maybe include memory management, something to handle system calls, maybe an interface to the graphics chips, and a process management system to allow all of the other functions of the OS and the game to run simultaneously. This would allow the game to make system calls and make memory and graphical management much easier for the game. So would this take much performance away from the game? I know processor speed matters, so if you want to know i will likely try to find an 80mhz or better processor, at 8 or maybe 16 bits.


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 01:23 Edited at: 27th Jul 2011 01:26
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Two things:

First being, don't double post. If you have anything to add please edit your posts. We don't allow anyone else to do it.

Secondly, while its admirable that you want to take on such a large challenge, I feel you've started to run before you can walk.
Heed this warning, as a lot of people have said this to you, it might be worth listening to them rather than just brushing it over.

Start small, work your way up. I don't know how much experience you have with electronics, but this would be quite a challenge for someone with an EE degree, let alone starting from scratch.

Learn the core fundamentals, you'll essentially need to teach yourself Computer Science (some of it) and Electronic Engineering to degree level and this will be the best way to tackle this problem.

Its no use cherry picking things from different sources, you need to know pretty much all the core.
Why do I say this? Well you've just asked a question that wouldn't even phase a first year computer scientist. Your focussing on all these superficial and quite small problems, but I don't think you've quite grasped the complexity of a system like this.

If you've ever coded on a large scale or created something on a large scale, you'll know that the larger the project gets, the amount of work required increases exponentially.

Nobody is telling you you aren't capable of creating a gaming console, we are telling you there is a right way to go about it and there is a wrong way to go about it.

I could probably create an MMO, but maybe because I have the core knowledge and a fair few projects under my belt.
Starting an MMO from ground 0 is a bad idea, not because you can't do it, but because it will take you longer to reach your final goal.


I would honestly say I would put good money on this project failing at the current rate. I honestly believe you could create a console one day, but the way you are going about it is all wrong.
Walk before you can run (Its not a saying people just throw around), you'll save yourself a lot of time if you just took it slower.

May sound harsh? And a lot of people have already told you this, but maybe because we've been there.


Out of interest, how many successful electronic projects have you created? And how many OS's have you created in the past?

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 01:58 Edited at: 29th Jul 2011 00:59
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Quote: "First being, don't double post. If you have anything to add please edit your posts. We don't allow anyone else to do it."
Sorry about that, i need to stop doing that so often...

Quote: "Start small, work your way up. I don't know how much experience you have with electronics, but this would be quite a challenge for someone with an EE degree, let alone starting from scratch.

Learn the core fundamentals, you'll essentially need to teach yourself Computer Science (some of it) and Electronic Engineering to degree level and this will be the best way to tackle this problem."
Well as far as starting small and working my way up, i will most certainly build a programmable thing of LED's, and that way i will have some experience creating this kind of thing and i will include some sort of operating system in it as well. I know it would be a stupid idea to just jump straight into developing the console with no other experience. And as for the core fundamentals, i already know those. I know how electronics are designed and how components work together to allow the circuit to carry out a specific function. I know how assembly code works, i also know how a computer works software wise in general! I know about how the OS does what is does, and i know how software runs on a computer.
Quote: "Its no use cherry picking things from different sources, you need to know pretty much all the core. "
Im not cherry picking things. I do know pretty much all the core, i just had a little question and so i was asking it.
Quote: "Out of interest, how many successful electronic projects have you created? And how many OS's have you created in the past?"
On an electronic kit of mine and on an electronic simulator, i have created a few little projects that all worked great. As far as an OS goes, i have to be honest and say no, i have never created an operating system before.


To every one in general, i appreciate your advice and wisdom. But i have gotten the point and i haven't brushed these things over. I have taken into consideration some things you guys have said and changed my plans for developing the console accordingly. Also, there are two people on YouTube that are like me. On of them, Esperantanso, developed an entire home brew TTL logic computer on bread boards and it works. He has an operating system for it too. The thing is, he like me, has gotten ALL of his information off of the Internet. So, PLEASE stop telling me i dont know the things i need to know, and that i dont have the experience i need. Maybe i only have a little real world electronics experience and a little virtual experience from a simulator, but go ahead, ask me an electronics design question and i will probably be able to answer it. I dont care what you guys say, i WILL and i repeat, WILL finish this console. I have set out to do something, and i wont stop until i succeed. Thank you.


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mm0zct
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 16:38 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2011 17:29
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Can I suggest you look at these:
http://rossum.posterous.com/20131601
http://rossum.posterous.com/building-the-rbox

You are suggesting you make an 8 or 16 bit console, and it's in a huge box and you are suggesting using usb for communication to controllers... as a comp-sci PhD student working on embedded architectures I couldn't help but die a little inside.

What you almost certainly want is a little 32-bit ARM SoC. There are ARM devboards which are pretty cheap which will give you a lot more number crunching than you were looking at, and with 3d graphics chips too. Most of them can all run Linux or uCLinux with the standard gcc toolchain, I really think you should be starting here.

If you want some advice on architectures etc. I'm happy to chip in my 2c, but please heed the advice iterated many times here about asking the right questions at the right time. Now is not the time to be asking about usb/ps2/designing a box or controllers, you should be thinking about what sort of budget and computational constraints you want, research what's available, then think about the box after.

By the way, you box should be about the size of a tin of tuna, not an xbox

I highly highly recommend you spend a few days going through hackaday.com at least.

If you have the money you should probably get something like a beagleboard http://beagleboard.org/hardware
Other dev kits can be got cheaper, this one is pretty powerful.

Edit: can I suggest one of these: http://mbed.org/nxp/lpc1768/
they are available for ~£35
http://mbed.org/handbook/mbed-NXP-LPC1768 gives you the pinouts.

You'll have to figure out some way of getting a display out of it like the very first link I sent though.

AMD AthlonX2 5000 black edition @2.8ghz, 4gb pc5400, AMD/ATi hd3850, creative xfi music, 24" hp widescreen 1920x1200 + 22" zalman trimon 3D 1680x1050, ECS KA3 MVP mobo
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 23:08
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Ah, i havent gotten a chance to look at your links yet but yah, i recently turned my brain on and yes, i will be using an ARM. Maybe not an SoC, but maybe something like an ARM 9 or ARM 11... Thanks!!

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mm0zct
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 01:11 Edited at: 4th Aug 2011 01:41
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I'm pretty sure you'll want a SoC even if it's just a really simple one. USB and networking can be free basically, and most importantly you get RAM, no SoC = no RAM (unless it's a microcontroller with <64K).

You would also be fine with something like an M3 considering you were thinking about using 8/16 bit microcontrollers.

AMD AthlonX2 5000 black edition @2.8ghz, 4gb pc5400, AMD/ATi hd3850, creative xfi music, 24" hp widescreen 1920x1200 + 22" zalman trimon 3D 1680x1050, ECS KA3 MVP mobo
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 01:54 Edited at: 4th Aug 2011 02:00
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Hmm, i have decided it will be a 32 bit console. So you mean if i used an SoC it would come with built in USB? That would be a definite upside. That mbed looks very interesting, i will look into it some more and see what i think of it.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 31st Jan 2012 09:23
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posting to unlock

http://thraxocorp.webs.com/ Visit my totally awesome website: Thraxocorp. It's my own company and I'm totes the CEO.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 01:08
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Hey thanks man! Will post a little experimental circuit progress soon.

Copyright © 2012 dbd79
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 14th May 2012 01:51 Edited at: 14th May 2012 01:52
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Hey everyone! Sorry to double post as I am just trying to keep this thread from autolocking for when I do indeed have progress to post. Just doing this myself so I dont have to bother any mods to do it for me later... Carry on, nothing new here.

Hope no one minds, thanks!
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mr Handy
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Posted: 14th May 2012 09:27
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That's a real hi-end wireless controller. Why do you want to invent bicycle again? Pointless.

Better thing is to make a micro-ATX pc with unique (aka just memorable) style and declare it as standart for DBP-users for a period of time (few years). It means that anyone who bought this "wannabe-console" would have same framerate and tech feat's.

THAT would be awesome, to solve main PC's problem - unification.

«It's the Shader, shader me this, shader me that»
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 14th May 2012 10:35 Edited at: 14th May 2012 10:45
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Not really sure what you are getting at here. You really need to clarify.
Quote: ""wannabe-console""
Not sure what is so 'wannabe' about my console I'm building. It will be a full blown, genuine gaming console. Again, your post was rather confusing and brief so I'm not too sure but it really doesn't seem like you have read a lot of stuff on this thread very clearly or thoroughly. Also, I have removed a very large part of the information about the console as the general consensus is that it is a relatively good idea and I don't want it to become patented and licensed by some person that isn't me. That could be why you are uninformed in which case is my fault.

Also, I'm very curious; please elaborate on said controller example...

Edit
Oh my bad, a simple little spelling error of yours completely threw me off. Still though, my console will have many features that will completely make DBPro programming obsolete. Again, I have removed massive amounts of my post describing the console and I have also since revised enormous parts of the concept. No one but me really knows this totally revised new concept of mine. People don't know the concept as I have it right now. Either way, you may not believe me when I say that it will be superior to DBPro, but it is in development right now, and you'll just have to see. Of course, it will be a tad inferior to conventional PC programming in certain ways but overall, I think it will be better. Then, using it I can make capital investments in myself to further the capabilities of the console.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 14th May 2012 11:08
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I've read all pages in this thread. You're trying to do your own console hardware and controller from scratch, plus without 3d support. What's the point? We have NES and SEGA, nowdays all 2D games played on handheld devices, like IPad. Also I have experience few years ago with Chinese noname 2D devices, that were done with the formula (NES + controller + 100 games + TV out + power cable, no batteries or display) in single bulky "gamepad". It's popularity is dramatically poor.

What is real and could be needed:
You could make a unique small PC case, very stylish, put in good hardware, compile and install linux, provide DB compatibility - that's will be a modern console, like PS or XBOX (IRL they a limited PCs too).

In that case, you will have great base for YOUR OWN OS, professional graphics hardware and any USB gamepad, plus YOUR OWN CASE DESIGN.

Modern consoles it's just gamepad and case design, special OS, but inside them is a THIRD-PARTY hardware. I can't even imagine that sony or m$ will make their very own grpahic chip.

«It's the Shader, shader me this, shader me that»
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2012 14:41
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I don't see how you can compete with the current market. PS3 is sold at a loss to get revenue from games market. Your games ideas are Pong, which is long dead. Morrisons have sold Megadrive consoles recently with games included.

If you are making a new console to sell, it has to offer something original. Plus your controller has square edges, and that is uncomfortable to hold.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 14th May 2012 17:47
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I think you're all being a little overly critical of the situation here.

Building a console from start to finish is a pretty fantastic accomplishment. I say go for it.

http://lossofanonymity.wordpress.com
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2012 18:12
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Over critical because he wants to sell it. Making it is a good idea.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 14th May 2012 23:05
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I don't think there is much at risk. If he doesn't have a following willing to buy it by the time he has some early prototypes I'm sure he won't make considerable investment in mass producing these.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 15th May 2012 00:24 Edited at: 15th May 2012 00:24
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Agent dink is awesome! Thanks for standing up for me.

You others guys seem to think I'm going for the general consumer market. Rather, I'm going for the education market. Some may say that my console willl be a Raspberry Pi clone but mine will have many advantages over it and a few inferiorities below it. Im not crazy to sell it becuase I'm aiming it at a non general consumer market. Also, like the almight agent dink stated, what is there to lose really? if all else, I'll have great experience, good memories, and a nice console to play around with.
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DevilLiger
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Posted: 16th May 2012 11:30 Edited at: 16th May 2012 11:30
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This is an idea here.

console idea:
- Raspberry PI
- Linux
- Custom Controller
- Games using OpenGL ES

my idea at one time was that I wanted to build one myself after finishing college. a few years or so. lol anyways I was thinking more like Linux but start it up with no start menu or nothing just blank screen have one program load up and appears full screen like an emulator that runs custom made games that doesn't run on exe. So that way it might be able to shave off time on a fully custom OS. It will work with a custom controller that can be used to navigate the screen like on current consoles. Other than that just pretty much optimize the memory on the OS to give it a smooth gameplay. It will run on computer parts which will save money IMO. runs on a decent GPU To me it's possible to do this under $300USD in parts. I don't know just an idea. lol


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