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Geek Culture / How would you find game dev partners for serious projects?

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Fallout
22
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 1st Nov 2011 17:56
Ok gentlemen! I want to discuss how you would go about finding game development partners to work with. I don't mean a quick team of hobbiests to make an FPSC game or such. I'm talking about people with a lot of time, a lot of talent, and the drive to become fully self-employed as indi game developers.

I'm in a strong position where I am able to work on games full time. I've been doing this for the past year and am well into my third commercial Android game. The problem is, I have grander ambitions, and I really want to work with other people with contrasting ideas, strong skills and the time to make something significant, most likely for PC.

Android, to be quite honest, is a rubbish platform to make money on. The culture of "everything should be free" is well ingrained into the majority of Android users and smart phones are extremely limiting. Trying to squeeze your 1 million player MMORPG into a 16MB heap on a device running at 600mhz isn't fun.

So really, I don't want to pay some artists to make me models, or pay a monkey to collect me coconuts (that is a game dev related job, right?). I want to find people who are in a position to make a serious go of being an indi game dev, and work with them as equals, sharing financial risk, time and effort.

The types of people would probably be:
- Professionals with savings who want to break from their mundane IT job and have a real go at indi titles
- Post-graduates living rent-free with their parents trying their best to avoid getting a real job in IT (which sucks btw), and instead want to have a go at game dev (<-- this was me once).
- Free-lancers who maybe get by on their talent, but have the time to work with someone on something bigger.

I've spent quite a lot of time in other communities, searching on things like linked-in, or indi game dev sites, and even checking out peoples projects on YouTube and dropping them messages, but finding people in my kind of situation is hard. In an ideal world, I'd find someone local so we could set up and office and work next to each other, but finding someone local would be highly unlikely.

So really, what do you guys think? How should I go about tracking down serious fully time indi devs who'd be up for starting a project? Normally I feel you'd have known people for a long time, know their skill sets and trust them before forming a team, but since I don't know anybody who can code or model to a professional standard and wants to have a crack an indi dev, how do I find them!

Ramble done. The floor is open.



TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 1st Nov 2011 18:27
You can always try and contact other serious indi developers or indi development teams. I don't know how stable the relationship stays, but that's certainly worth a shot.

But usually teams like this emerge from people that have been together for some years, such as in schools. Do you know anyone near you that would be interested in something like this? I sure don't... People like that are rare unfortunately.

My best advice is to try and get involved in an existing indi team.

TheComet

Fallout
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 1st Nov 2011 18:33
I totally agree buddy. When I was at school I had one friend who I made games with, but we drifted apart after school. At uni I had lots of coding mates, but none who were into making games. So I've not got any real life coding buddies. I think that's probably how most serious teams start.

Quote: "My best advice is to try and get involved in an existing indi team."


Yeah, I do think this could be the best strategy. I'm keeping my eyes open for projects I like the look of, but really to sit down with someone over a beer and flesh out a brand new game idea would be immense.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 19:16
I've been thinking of making a serious project as well. I just figured that you need to be lucky to get the right people together. I want to make an animated Heavy Metal Rock Opera. I've bought all of the equipment to make the music, a small recording studio. But yeah, how do you find people to work with?

Fallout
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 20:10
Quote: "I want to make an animated Heavy Metal Rock Opera."


You're going to have to explain that concept my man! I can't get my head around an animated heavy metal rock opera??

The Wilderbeast
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Location: UK
Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 00:37
Take a look in some of the well established modding forums. As I'm sure you're aware there are quite a few titles on the market today that started off as mods for games such as UT2K4 etc. There's a lot of serious talent in the modding community and the work ethic is hardcore. I wouldn't worry about a modder not knowing how to program just because they use a toolset, most of the time there's a fair amount of custom coding involved (I'm sure you know this) and so they usually have a good grounding in a couple of languages.

Hope this helps, and good luck with your endeavors


10% TGC Discount!
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 02:05
Quote: "You're going to have to explain that concept my man! I can't get my head around an animated heavy metal rock opera??"


A feature length music video made with 3D models, and maybe DBPro.

Deathcow
FPSC Reloaded Backer
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 03:31
The TGC forum is the worst place for group projects, fun or serious. Out of all the projects that I would say were serious/professional project, most if not all were made by one developer. Off course this is only my opinion, but this forum does not promote team work. This would be hard for someone like you Fallout to identify from this forum. There are many good developers on this forum, but it is hard to tell how many would be good at working in a team.

DC

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 08:23
If you can't generate a reasonable return, then this pretty much rules out most of the seriously skilled people.

Fallout
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 11:23
Quote: "If you can't generate a reasonable return, then this pretty much rules out most of the seriously skilled people."


I can, but Android isn't the platform to do it. I had one of my games featured for a full month. It was the most visible Brain and Puzzle app on the whole Google marketplace for this time. It made some half decent money, selling over 1 copy/minute at it's peak. But when you do the maths of users/sales, that's not good enough.

These weren't people evaluating the product then purchasing either. These were people taking a punt because it was cheap and 'featured', so the quality of the product had little bearing on sales. I know this because the demo version downloads didn't increase uniformly, and I didn't see more than a 10% refund rate. Then, once it lost it's feature, it disappeared back into the ether. Basically, this, coupled with many blogs and articles I've read about Android, highlights it's rubbish for most products with a price tag.

I have another free app which gets over 1000 plays/day. This generates between $1->$3 / day advertisement revenue. That's pathetic. 1000 people viewing an ad is only worth $1 with AdMob. When I released the game I got 20,000 downloads in the first week. The peak daily advertisement revenue was $3.50. So, short of click fraud, I don't think a game can make any real money on Android with ad revenue either, unless it goes viral like Angry Birds for example. Also, it's worth mentioning that people loved the free version of this game, rate it highly and email me frequently praising it, but nobody is prepared to buy the full version. 28,000 free downloads vs 168 purchases of the full. People may argue that's something to do with how I've implemented my free vs paid model, but since we're talking 79p, and the demo is very well received yet lacking in a lot of the full features, I find that hard to believe. I'm convinced it's the Android user base culture. After all, I've never paid for an app, and I don't know many friends with Android phones who have either. iPhones though? Yep, people buy apps all the time.

Anyway, Android rant done! If anyone can generate a reasonable return on Android without being in the top 10 of the charts for months on end, then I will eat my own spleen. Time for me to hit another platform.

Quote: "The TGC forum is the worst place for group projects, fun or serious. Out of all the projects that I would say were serious/professional project, most if not all were made by one developer."


This is very true. Most of the impressive DBP projects come out of the blue from a single person who's been working silently by themselves.

Quote: "Take a look in some of the well established modding forums."


Very good idea. I think you're right.

Quik
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 13:57
Moddb.com
and indiedb.com is my recommendations considering those are made for mod developers and indie developers


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
JLMoondog
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 22:35
I'd send you an email, but you don't have one listed. Send me one at: joshlmooney(at)gmail.com.

MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 00:41
Im up for projects small or large but I need a while more to go over everything SBPro has to offer and I still have a lot to purchase yet like nuclear glory and Box2D...

I will update my banner to reflect my projects soon.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 14:20
Quote: "- Post-graduates living rent-free with their parents trying their best to avoid getting a real job in IT (which sucks btw), and instead want to have a go at game dev (<-- this was me once)."


Whistles. I've said before I'd be happy to offer myself as a writer to you if you needed one, but the thing that rules me out here is that I do want a real job...not in IT mind you, though I had to set up my own PC where I'm doing work experience, manager was proper impressed.


Anyway, you might wanna try out LinkedIn.com, the 'professional' social media site, you never know what you might find on there.

Fallout
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 14:35
The cool news is, Josh and I are now working together on a long term project. I'm sure it'll see the light of day in the months to come. Funnily enough, we dropped your name Sep while talking about story lines. I insisted you were an utter loser and I would rather severe my own lungs than work with you, but he said you weren't that bad, even when I mentioned things like body odor and cheese fetishes.

Anyway, it's very early days and we're just bouncing ideas off each other at the moment, but I shall remember you guys if and when we decide to look for help.

Quik
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 15:00
I am assuming josh is the artist? that will be interesting! Josh is indeed a very good artist always loved his style! ^^ good luck


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 15:48
If you can get over my BO and cheese fetish the email address where I actually check my emails is:

bryn.price{at}live.co.uk

I don't know what email is in my profile...probably some old scummy one with an inbox full of Viagra and great offers for enlarging male body parts (I've always liked the idea of enlarging my nose, perhaps one eye larger than the other so I can use my magnifying glass as a monocle).


On the other hand, if you can't, then you might as well decline the invite to a cheese convention I was going to give you for Christmas.

David R
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 16:10 Edited at: 6th Nov 2011 16:15
Even though you say you can't find anyone you already know, I reckon ultimately you need to do this with people you already know (or knew). They need to be people you already trust (and whom trust you) and you need a dynamic where you can be brutally honest to each other (something which is difficult to do with people you haven't known long).

Any people you graduated with worth getting in touch with? I read somewhere on Joel on Software this is actually the best way to go about it (either to find a partner or to hire for a startup) - not only do you know them, but you pretty much immediately know their technical skills and how they work too

Quote: "Post-graduates living rent-free with their parents trying their best to avoid getting a real job in IT (which sucks btw),"


Which part sucks - living rent free avoiding jobs or the IT job itself?

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 16:28
Quote: " Which part sucks - living rent free avoiding jobs or the IT job itself? "


I like David R... either him or simply people with logical thought processes.

TheComet
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 18:29
Quote: "The cool news is, Josh and I are now working together on a long term project. I'm sure it'll see the light of day in the months to come."


Good luck to both of you I'm confident something cool might turn out.

TheComet

Eminent
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 19:01
Quote: "I'm confident something cool might turn out."


Oh yeah, real comforting.
Wolf
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 19:53 Edited at: 6th Nov 2011 19:56
You meat them alongside of your independent carriere.

I met a few people that started alongside of me or even a lot later with FPSC and moved on to more complex engines...and to professional development.

I bet you find the people you are looking for around here on the forums. there is a lot of talent going on here and combined, it will most likely spawn a great independent videogame.

Why don't you elaborate on your plans and your game idea.
Or better yet: What kind of people are you looking for? What part do you want to take over in your team? (by "kind of people" I mean: 3D Modelartist, Coder, Texture artist, concept designer etc.)

(( Besides: How do you plan on marketing your project? Any ideas already? I'm currently sitting on something I want to commercialise for ...3 Dollars each. You can see alpha screenshots in the gallery. Those blue images with "PSISHOCK" on the picture)



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
Fallout
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 20:22 Edited at: 6th Nov 2011 20:35
Quote: "I am assuming josh is the artist? that will be interesting!"


No pigeon holing! We both have a wide range of skills, so I think we'll both be working on various areas, but yeah, Josh will take the lead on art.

Quote: "If you can get over my BO and cheese fetish the email address where I actually check my emails is:"


Noted mate. Cheers for that.

Quote: "On the other hand, if you can't, then you might as well decline the invite to a cheese convention I was going to give you for Christmas."


No way man. I'm there. I love food that smells worse than my feet, and I feel you are the only man who can supply me with such delicacies.

Quote: "Even though you say you can't find anyone you already know, I reckon ultimately you need to do this with people you already know (or knew). They need to be people you already trust (and whom trust you) and you need a dynamic where you can be brutally honest to each other (something which is difficult to do with people you haven't known long). "


Normally I would agree here, but Josh and I seem to be on the same wavelength, and both seem to be good at taking criticism and being flexible. We'll see if the brutal honesty works!

Quote: "Any people you graduated with worth getting in touch with?"


Unfortunately not. Nobody was really into game design in my degree (it wasn't straight out computer science). I've always been a solo game developer. Mates I know personally really would've been a no brainer.

Quote: "Which part sucks - living rent free avoiding jobs or the IT job itself?"


Why you!!!! You know I meant all of them suck in equal measure, those pathetic sponging losers!!

Quote: "Oh yeah, real comforting."


Yeah, I picked up on that too. Thanks Comet for the vote of confidence. Remind me to definitely think about maybe sending you a Christmas card perhaps.

Quote: "Why don't you elaborate on your plans and your game idea.
Or better yet: What kind of people are you looking for? What part do you want to take over in your team? (by "kind of people" I mean: 3D Modelartist, Coder, Texture artist, concept designer etc.)"


When I posted this, I didn't have a specific game idea. It really wasn't a team request. It was more of a cry for help saying "LOOK! I have this time, I have this experience, I have what I think is a pretty strong ability, and I have this desire to work with someone in the same position ..... how do I find them?" But yeah, I was hoping someone on this forum with some decent ability might say "ME!" and they did. An artist is the most yin to my yang, but I would've been interested to work with anyone who could work full time (or close to). That's the key.

As for marketing, that's on our "jobs/responsibilities" list and something we really have to look into. I'll take a look at your work btw mate.

The Slayer
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 20:40
@Fallout:
Can I ask you, what language/engine are you going to use? Could you also email me. Have something to ask you. Thanks.

Fallout
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 20:54
Quote: "Can I ask you, what language/engine are you going to use? Could you also email me. Have something to ask you. Thanks."


No idea. I wouldn't be opposed to using DGDK, if our design doesn't call for something it isn't capable of. It's definitely beyond the scope of DBP. Otherwise I was looking at Ogre recently. I would imagine we'll work in C++.

TheComet
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 21:17
Quote: "Oh yeah, real comforting."


Thanks for pointing that out

TheComet

WLGfx
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Posted: 8th Nov 2011 02:42
Hey good luck with wherever you end up with this project...

Most of my testing and coding is mainly done with PureGDK these days as it does give much more freedom than Dark GDK. Faster too. I use a lot of the winapi gui stuff.

I believe Ogre is a good engine but I cannot get it running most of the demo source code on this laptop so I dropped it at the time. Even IrrLicht did the same thing on this laptop. Although I have got much better computers in the home, I prefer this slow one for benchmarking my code.

Can't wait to see what you produce. Along the way maybe you can provide us with a heads up and screen shots.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
Wolf
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Posted: 8th Nov 2011 08:00
Quote: "I believe Ogre is a good engine"


Negative, its a graphics engine only so you can't pull up an actual game with it.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
lazerus
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Posted: 8th Nov 2011 11:51
Came up a little while back.

Best sites for finding gamedev teams~

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Nov 2011 19:17 Edited at: 9th Nov 2011 19:24
Quote: "Can't wait to see what you produce. Along the way maybe you can provide us with a heads up and screen shots."


Definitely. We'll put up a development blog and website when the time comes, and we'll definitely keep TGC apprised of the action.

Quote: "Negative, its a graphics engine only so you can't pull up an actual game with it."


It's designed that way so that you can use whichever sound, network, physics etc libraries you want, instead of being lumbered with theirs. So yeah, it's not an engine, but you certainly can make games with it.

Daniel TGC
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Posted: 10th Nov 2011 22:17
If you want serious, you need to be professional and work with professionals. But professionals want paying, so the only certain way is to pay a professional to help you.

The alternative is to make like minded friends who have the same vision or attach themselves to your vision. at the end of the day you have to ask the question

"What's in it for my project partner" if the answer is "nothing" then it's going no where fast. The problem is that most people join this community because they have their own visions. You'd have to give someone a very good reason to abandon it even for a short time.

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