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Geek Culture / The Internet is at Risk

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Quik
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 11:04
since indie games are generarily cheaper i buy them more often
i can buy up to five indie games, for the price of one AAA game title..


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
Fallout
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 12:18 Edited at: 18th Nov 2011 12:25
Mount & Blade = Indie. One of the best games I've played for a while. You'll never see innovation like that in the AAA industry. Battlefield Medieval? They won't dare alienate all the FPS fanboys (look at the lack of success of BF2042), where as indie developers have to innovate to stand out and attract a niche.

So imo, no, indie games in generally aren't better than AAA, but as quik said, a good indie game is far better value for money.

Quik
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 13:17 Edited at: 18th Nov 2011 13:21
Quote: "Mount & Blade = Indie. One of the best games I've played for a while. "


oh yhes, i have more time spent there than i have on CSS (CSS being the most played game on my steam account)

which is a lot..(well it says 28 hours, but i started playing CSS 3-4 years before it started counting...)

edit: iam not sure if Tripwire is indie, i THINK so though: they made killing floor and Red Orchestra 2, which both are BRILLIANT games..


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
Fallout
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 14:20
Quote: "oh yhes, i have more time spent there than i have on CSS"


Last weekend I had some friends round for some lanning. We played M&B and BF1942. M&B was £8/copy, and it wasnt much more when I bought it new. It was awesome fun. The best multiplayer game I've played for a while. It was full of those awesome " Must .... must hit him with this arrow else they win ... YHEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!" moments, plus legendary sword battles against all odds, and unexpected mounted chop downs. Pure awesome.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 19:10
Quote: "TF2 is the worst MP game ever made. I don't understand why people love it so much!!!

in my opinion, yes, since TF2 is fun from time to time, its not as brilliant IMO as people keep saying"


Eh, I imagine it's down to taste. For example, I dumped Minecraft six months ago, but TF2 is still fun to me.

ionstream
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 23:51
Quote: "You'll never see innovation like that in the AAA industry. Battlefield Medieval? They won't dare alienate all the FPS fanboys (look at the lack of success of BF2042)"


The "AAA" industry contains hundreds of companies that make innovations all the time. BF2142 was as successful as you'd expect for a game that wasn't very fun. Besides, Mount and Blade's ikisoft is no more indie than Valve Software.

Quik
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Posted: 18th Nov 2011 23:57
valve can indeed be classified as indie! and blizzard until a year ago or so


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 00:30
What...?

How the heck is Valve indie? What is this I don't even...

Quik
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 01:01
how are they NOT? they publish their game THEMSELVES with their OWN services


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Captain Coder
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 01:06
The primary problem I think is that when ever a problem/disaster arises, people want to kill the source of the problem (naturally), or they want something above them to protect/insure them from it. I think this is the case here: people are tired of having their work stolen, and they are appealing to the law for help, as they should. But instead of removing the ones that are causing the problems, they are asking for an across the board sweep. Stretching something across the board isn't always a good idea.

Personally, I don't see why already-existing laws can't fix this problem if given the proper funding. The US I'm sure has anti-priacy laws, especially in it's copyright treaties. They should be able to target the actual crooks through the website host, or at least follow the paper trail back to the guy who's allowing the crime to happen (i.e. find out who paid for the site's domain name).

This is I think an example of over reaction. If we think about what we want to do and then carefully write laws to fulfill our purposes and only those purposes, then the result should be good.

That's my two cents.
Captain Coder

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 01:29
Quote: "how are they NOT? they publish their game THEMSELVES with their OWN services"


Indie = independent.

Valve are easily one of the biggest names in gaming. Indie is a small-time company, completely unlike Valve.

You name me an Indie company that has Valve's budget to play with.

ionstream
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 02:48 Edited at: 19th Nov 2011 02:49
Quote: "How the heck is Valve indie? What is this I don't even..."


Because they are not owned by a larger publisher or studio. There is no rule that a company has to be small in order to be independent, especially since the term is relative.

Quote: "You name me an Indie company that has Valve's budget to play with."


Valve.

nonZero
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 08:20
The word "indie" has become obscured in definition over the years. Originally, the term indie(abrev. for "Independent") literally meant NO corporate/publisher/merged companies/etc. By the standards of the original meaning of the word, CoffeeGrunt is 100% correct. Sadly, today's standards for the word are about as ambiguous as a legal contract. Indie by today's standards can mean anything that isn't, by majority opinion, considered "mainstream" or a "big name" or on the stock market or has white socks or doesn't eat cheese kind of thing. This is a misuse of the term although some may argue that "majority definition = accepted = true definition".

But by any definition, does this look like an "indie" game company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation

As we can see from this article, Valve and Valve's activities fit the "Corporate" profile better than the "indie" one.

ionstream
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 10:56 Edited at: 19th Nov 2011 11:03
Quote: "But by any definition, does this look like an "indie" game company?"


They are independent of a publisher or larger company, so yes. There are no other criteria to being indie, even if they seem big and financially successful.

Anyways the point of all this is to show that there's a blurry line between what's considered indie and whats considered AAA, and just because a company is successful and large doesn't mean they are somehow evil or greedy.

Quik
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 12:26
Quote: "Indie = independent."


but the problem here is that they ARE independent

well well ~~ speaking of indies: Dungeon Defender is another example of an AWESOME game


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 15:03
Indie = Independent of publishers. Though typically they are small low budget companies. There are big success indie companies out there.


Suppose the semantics could be solved with "low budget companies" and "high budget companies".

Quik
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 15:47
Quote: ""low budget companies" and "high budget companies". "


so mojang isnt indie anymore then?


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 23:25
I'm saving solve the issue of semantics by using different terms. If Mojang doesn't have a publisher, no matter how much money the geezers have they're still indie. I know 'indie' has kind have become synonymous with 'small and low budget', however, we know it not to be the case.

Quik
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Posted: 19th Nov 2011 23:36
Quote: "I'm saving solve the issue of semantics by using different terms. If Mojang doesn't have a publisher, no matter how much money the geezers have they're still indie. I know 'indie' has kind have become synonymous with 'small and low budget', however, we know it not to be the case. "


i find it to be that if they have a publisher, then they do have a higher budget since the publisher gives them money to finish the project /right?\

at any rate: no publisher = indie

much money no publisher = indie
no money no publisher = indie

with publisher = not indie
much money and publisher = not indie
no money with publisher = not indie


yeah, thats how i see it..


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
Jeku
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 06:11
Quote: "NO because half the playerbase buys the game AFTER pirating it and the other half just thought the title to be mildly interesting (very much exaggurating here but the prnciple is exactly that..)"


That is one hell of an exaggeration. I would wager that not even 1% of piraters pay for the game after pirating it!


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nonZero
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 06:53
Valve used to have a publisher (See the link in my previous post), so therefore it will never be 100% indie. Secondly, surely "independent" also means independent of other publishers. If Valve is so independent, then did they co-publish with "EA"? Left 4 Dead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_4_Dead_%28series%29
...among others were co-published by Valve and EA. Collaboration between publishers implies that some part of each other's work is technically publisher by the other.

...Ergo, Valve has not published all it's own stuff. Ergo Valve is not entirely independent. Ergo Valve is not indie. Perhaps we could coin a phrase like "Valve-Indie" to go along with "Valve Time", lol!

Disclaimer: For anyone who takes offence, don't. I'm not criticising Valve at all because more financial backing = bigger budget for games. I like the work they do for the industry, I really do. I'm just settling a technicality dispute (hopefully... yeah right).

Fallout
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 10:05 Edited at: 20th Nov 2011 10:06
Quote: "The "AAA" industry contains hundreds of companies that make innovations all the time. BF2142 was as successful as you'd expect for a game that wasn't very fun. Besides, Mount and Blade's ikisoft is no more indie than Valve Software."


I enjoyed BF2142 more than any other BF game, because it was different, with hover tanks, walkers, those huge goliath ships etc. There are other people like me who think it is great! If the majority don't find that fun, then the BF series will stick with the same old FPS crap to appeal to the masses - hence the new game. A small indie team would stick with that approach and appeal to their niche.

As for Mount and Blade not being any more indie than anyone else, it did start out life as a few people in a bedroom when M&B was being developed. That might not be the official definition of indie, but when I think indie, I think a bedroom dev company on a tiny budget. That's how that game started it's life - a few people trying to innovate something new.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 15:51
If indie means 'independant of other publishers', then how can there be an indie section on steam?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 16:08
Steam is an online retailer, at least that's how I'd define it. Like GAME, HMV, Gamestation and all that malarkey, but in a digital world.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 16:18
Does it not count as publishing then? I mean, they do advertise indie games on the front page and stuff, but I suppose you're right in saying it's only a retailer.

Quik
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Posted: 20th Nov 2011 17:05
publishers usually have a lot of contoll in on how the game is to be made, with what resources, where it should be sold ETC


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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Nov 2011 03:28
Well what about all the games that are released on PSN or XBLA? Technically they're all published by Microsoft or Sony, so none of them are indie?


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Nov 2011 10:16
How do we define game publishers vs game retailers? What about publishers who use Steam/PSN/XBL? Are they no longer the publishers once they use them?

budokaiman
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Posted: 21st Nov 2011 13:38
Quote: "How do we define game publishers vs game retailers?"

I think that publishers get the game into the retailers, and do the advertising. XBL, PSN and Steam only sell the games on their own networks. The publishers would be the ones to get the game on those networks, as well as in stores and other retailers.


Who says famine has to be depressing?
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 12:13
Hey you Americans, clicky this link:

http://stopcensorship.org/?


gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 18:11 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2011 18:12
first of all, the true is that most of the players can't afford high quality games, so they basicaly don't inflict any damage on the companies by feeding piracy, the core development team of these big companies want people to play their games, they don't seem to care if a certain mass isn't actualy buying a original copy of their hard work, they want people to play it ! they'll receive their salary in the end of the month as usual, and what if those companies find a way to end piracy ?(for their products only of course, hehehe)
well then, alot of people would be excluded, they just wont be able to play, because the publisher want them to spend their last cent on a GAME ! what about the electricity bill ? and the water bill ?!
FOOD ? isn't that more important than just a silly game ? how can they want people to spend the money they can't spend in something virtual ? that's ridiculous, still, piracy is wrong and obviously "unsupportable" but some people have no other way to play a nice games without the side effect of total destruction their wallets,
and if you say, if you don't have the cash, you can't buy it, simple. Well unfortunately, it's not that easy, you see, if someone can't buy a "virtual" product and still find a way to have a copy of this product, this person won't be hurting the interests of profit from the company, if the product worth what it costs, there will be no direct hit, you see ? the publisher won't be prived from gain any money, and won't be loosing any cash either, and again, "BUT" there are some ungrateful idiots that have the capital to buy these expensive digital products, but they just won't, they just wanna pay less or don't pay at all for the product, they're just tricksters.
for those who can't afford it, lies the risk of social exclusion
and for the nasty tricksters, lies the fair punishment, so this is just complicated, and if the piracy ends, there's no warrant that the price of the original copies won't rise absurdly, they would be the only market, so please people, be reasonable, try to stop this censorship before it's too late.

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 18:27 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2011 18:28
Ah yes, the old "My pirating doesn't hurt anyone" debate. As it turns out, piracy does stop people from actually buying a game.

Think about it, why would AAA companies spend thousands or hundreds of thousands on antipiracy methods for their games only to remove them a few weeks after launch? It's to stop piracy at the launch of their game, and it works.

Companies aren't that gullible. They wouldn't keep using these methods if they didn't work.

Anyway, SOPA isn't actually about piracy. It's about big money controlling the internet. We need to write our reps guys!


gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 18:49
Quote: "hey wouldn't keep using these methods if they didn't work."

wha ? they don't work at all, because there are very talented people like razor working for the piracy side

Quote: "As it turns out, piracy does stop people from actually buying a game."


ohh of course we can't forget the stupid tricksters, they will download these games from the internet even if they can buy the original copy, these people, they are... i can't sewar in the forum !!

Quote: "Anyway, SOPA isn't actually about piracy"


but won't it might affect the piracy ?

Quote: "My pirating doesn't hurt anyone"


and what if you're too poor to buy a game and have it pirated ? sould you fell guilty, is that really correct ?

and what about the wealthy bastards that are too greedy to buy a original copy, doom them ! piracy is morally wrong because of those guys !

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 18:53 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2011 18:56
Quote: "wha ? they don't work at all, because there are very talented people like razor working for the piracy side"


It does work, though not for every game that gets leaked early. If the game isn't leaked early, usually it takes days or even weeks before they start appearing on the scene, after release. (The release is the most important period of sales for publishers.)

Quote: "but won't it might affect the piracy ?"


No

Quote: "and what if you're too poor to buy a game and have it pirated ? sould you fell guilty, is that really correct ?

and what about the wealthy bastards that are too greedy to buy a original copy, doom them ! piracy is morally wrong because of those guys !"


Yes. Piracy is morally wrong for the poor or the rich alike. If you don't like being poor, stop playing video games and make something, contribute to society.


Quik
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 19:06
Quote: "Think about it, why would AAA companies spend thousands or hundreds of thousands on antipiracy methods for their games only to remove them a few weeks after launch? It's to stop piracy at the launch of their game, and it works.

Companies aren't that gullible. They wouldn't keep using these methods if they didn't work."


funny how Skryim was cracked on day one
no wait, it was cracked on 10/11/11
because some people got it one day before others(depending on time zones)

anyway, Saints Row the third was cracked 3 days after release
stronghold 3 day one
dead island cracked a day or two after release

i could go on and on, its just extremely dull way to spend money on: because it wont halt piracy, only for those who enjoys staying in line to get the game on day one...


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 19:10
Quote: "Yes. Piracy is morally wrong for the poor or the rich alike. If you don't like being poor, stop playing video games and make something, contribute to society."


ohh no ! sorry for the comfusion, i'm not defending myself, i buy original games sorry for giving that impression.

Quote: "It does work, though not for every game that gets leaked early. If the game isn't leaked early, usually it takes days or even weeks before they start appearing on the scene, after release. (The release is the most important period of sales for publishers.)
"


i'm sorry, i gonna have to disagree with you here, i've never seen a "PC" game take more than 6 days to go pirate brotha

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 20:03
Ubisoft's recent releases have taken some time. But yeah, not all games get so lucky.


Quik
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 20:05
Quote: "Ubisoft's recent releases have taken some time. But yeah, not all games get so lucky."


they have DRM right?

I havent bought a single Ubisoft game since i found out about their AWFUL DRM protection


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gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 20:42
what's this drm protection ? what's wrong with it ?

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
Quik
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 20:56
DRM, within Ubisoft prevents you from playing a game without internet connection

so basicly, if you play a game and the internet quits on you, then the game dies

you cant start the game without internet either..


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gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 21:18
you can kill it with a pack, now i see why it takes some time to pirate it, it's seawty, but can be pirated, sorry but they better do much better than this if they really wanna stand a chance agains piracy.

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
Quik
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 21:28
Quote: "you can kill it with a pack, now i see why it takes some time to pirate it, it's seawty, but can be pirated, sorry but they better do much better than this if they really wanna stand a chance agains piracy."


those who wants to pirate will always find a better way

you cant win the piracy fight and still stand on terms with your consumers :I


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gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 21:30
have to connect yourself to the internet in order to play games isn't aceptable, what if you have a connection problem ?!

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
Quik
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 21:35
Quote: "what if you have a connection problem ?!"


pretty much that, what about if you travel?
or the like, well me myself is strongly against that kind of DRM


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gendestroier
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2011 21:47
this drm can actualy lead people to piracy, how ironic

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 27th Nov 2011 02:18
i havent been following the story really so whats going on did they pass the Protect-IP?
so am i like censored now to American Ip Addresses since i am in Russia and stuff?
Does anyone here from the United States see this post?
It would suck if the censored me

if i was censored to US can someoke from UK, Canada or Australia repost my post so the US can see it?


but really, i am very sad that such law might be passed. Before it was only for China to have this kind of policy which is actually very understandable if you consider the population of China and its history with Mao Tse Dong (Sp?)

or North korea which protects itself from the evils of capitalism

But when USA- the country to which everyone looks up to as the symbol of everything good like freedom and democracy passes a law like that, it also sets example for other countries to follow. while destroying its own image. all of this out of worries such as piracy of software games and music.

music and games are cheap enough, but lets say, a person cant afford adobe photoshop CS5 for $5000 or 3ds Max for $5000 or some other software like that. and that guys dream is to get some adobe certificates or become a 3d artist. He cant fulfill his dreams because he cant afford the software.

Bill Gates realised this and did things very differentley but thats a different story.

the reasons for some of the so called "opressive" chinese government and their censorship of internet are actually pretty justified if you look at their situation.

Mao was unsucessfull with his communist experiments. but the one where he authorised a youth orgonisation called "Redguards" to rebell against the authority, this caused almost the entire government around Mao to collapse and resign as this youth even went after polititians who they thought werent loyal to Mao leaving only Mao untochable. this even government officials were accused, publicly humiliated and even killed.
Thats why the modern chinese government is keepeng a tight grip on its people because the people know how to rebell and they can do it again. If capitalim keeps chinese content so be it.

also the chinese 1 child policy is there because once the current demographic working age group gets too old, The chinese government would go bankrupt when they have to pay every retired persons pention and benefits. so the best solution for china is to actually reduce the population if they want to financially survive the next 50 years

but yeah. i really hope this will not go any further with the internet censorship


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
nonZero
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 09:28
I thought of two ways to combat piracy, or at least mitigate the damages caused by it, without harming the consumer.

1. Just accept piracy, and shove enough adds at loading screens and/or product placement in game to make money off advertisers rather than relying solely on sales. Also, don't forget that people are suckers for merchandise.

2. This would only work for consoles and only be cost-effective in about 3-5 years. Bring back a "cartridge system". We can already store 16GB on a cheap MicroSD card and 32GB on a more expensive one (dunno how big they go up to overseas or what the limits of SDHC are. I thinks it's 64GB). In other words, the next gen consoles should all be equipped with a special slot for a board containing a rom chip with a verification on it and whatever game in SSD memory. Sure it isn't 100% pirate proof (as we saw with the first cartridge-dumping devices way back then when the world was an awesome collection of 256 coloured pixels), but it would be a lot harder to do given today's R&D budgets for protection mechanisms and the average person would be clueless on how to successfully do all this so they'd just buy the game. People moan about magnetic vulnerability, data loss, etc. but up to a few months back when it went into storage, my Famicom and all it's cartridges worked fine and I'm sure they still will when I get them out of storage again.

Anyway, just my thoughts. As a legitimate consumer, I actually don't play games on PC often because of all the copy-protection sewerage you have to get through just to play the game. But I've noticed lately that consoles are inching towards being as bad as PC games too now... I sure do miss the days when I pushed in a cartidge, flipped on the power and played the game

Quik
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Location: Equestria!
Posted: 28th Nov 2011 21:39
Quote: "1. Just accept piracy, and shove enough adds at loading screens and/or product placement in game to make money off advertisers rather than relying solely on sales. Also, don't forget that people are suckers for merchandise."


but if i buy a game, i dont want any shoey ads in it? If so, whats the point in buying it at all?


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
Indicium
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Joined: 26th May 2008
Location:
Posted: 28th Nov 2011 23:16
What does it matter if there's ads in loading screens?

Quik
16
Years of Service
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Joined: 3rd Jul 2008
Location: Equestria!
Posted: 29th Nov 2011 11:46
nothing at all, except for the fact that if i BUY something i dont want any ads in my face, i can DEFINITLY accept that in a demo/free game, i see no problem there.

But i shouldnt be punished for buying a game


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies

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