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Geek Culture / Interesting Theory About Friction and the Slipperiness of Ice

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 01:07 Edited at: 18th Dec 2011 07:05
Well i have done some research as to why ice is slippery, and no scientists actually know. Lot's of theories have been taught but all have been mathematically or otherwise experimentally been dis-proven.

So i got to thinking, and one day i came up with a little 'theory' on friction or perhaps more properly worded, 'another way to explain friction'. My idea is that when you have two surfaces rubbing against each other, due to the surface imperfections on both surfaces, the atoms of one surface are being hit by the atoms of another surface. This causes them to be jostled around and they vibrate faster, essentially causing the objects to have more thermal energy and in turn they become warmer.

Now that part has already been explained and proven as far as i know, but here is where my idea about why ice is slippery comes in: because thermal energy is just the energy of the atoms in the object moving around, an object would have a resistance to becoming warmer due to the atoms not wanting to vibrate faster due to their inertia. This in turn makes it harder for kinetic energy to turn in to thermal energy. Small molecules such as those in ice should have a lower inertia, and thus less resistance to becoming warmer, and thus the kinetic energy has a less difficult time converting to thermal energy.

Now one issue you may see with this theory is that if kinetic energy had a hard time turning to thermal energy, it would just remain in the form of kinetic energy and thus an object with larger rather than smaller molecules would be more slippery. However, if that were to happen, let's say your shoe is one surface and there is another surface with large, high inertia molecules; the kinetic energy of your shoe sliding over the surface would have a very hard time converting to thermal energy, but your weight and inertia force the shoe to vibrate the molecules of the surface. Because the molecules are so large and have so much inertia, they really dont want to move faster, and thus it becomes harder to move your shoe. If you moved your shoe across ice, the small molecules wouldnt have as much inertia and thus it wouldnt be as hard for your shoe to move.

The whole thing is analogous to a situation where you could walk through two hallways. In both hallways, on the walls are connected large boards that can pivot like a door to let you through. One hallway has very heavy doors, and the other has very light doors. In the hallway with heavy doors, just because they are large and heavy doesnt mean that the kinetic energy of you walking through the hallway is not converted to the doors moving, it just means it's a lot harder. In the hallway with light doors, walking through is very easy. So, that is my rather long explanation as to why i believe ice is slippery!

So tell my what you think about my 'theory' or if you know something i dont about friction and ice and what not, tell me!

Also, just in case your are wondering, development on the B3 is still going, im not sure how but i 'accidentally' took a long break from development but that is a topic for the other thread, so leave a post there if ya want me to furtha infomationize you about the console's current state!

Dang, that must have been the longest post i have written! Oh well, it's good for the groovy conglomeration of neurons encased in your cranial bone matter!

Indicium
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 01:28
Due to the lack of breaks in that text and the late hour, not much of it sank in, but after falling off my bike yesterday due to the bloody stuff, I wondered too.

My theory is that ice itself is not slippery, but a thin sheet of water is. I think that when you step on, or in my case, ride across, a sheet of ice, the very top layer melts due to heat produced by friction, causing a very thin layer of liquid.

I'm guess is that a thin layer of liquid is enough to reduce the friction afterwards between the foot, or wheel, and the surface.

Just a wild guess really though.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 03:06
you see that was their common belief for a long time but they mathematically disproved it lol! i will revise my text to make it more readable!

MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 03:07
I agree with what Indicium said...

And wooow DBD79... WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!

Nice to see you around again

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 07:03 Edited at: 18th Dec 2011 07:08
Quote: "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN"
I have been here all this time just with nothing to say haha! And i never felt like going to go check out other threads and post in them so for a while i was gone haha!

Quote: "Nice to see you around again"
Thanks man, that means a lot! And same to you!

Edit:
I think i got the post edited a little better! I made it into individual paragraphs but i hope my wording doesnt cause that groovy conglomeration of neurons inside your cranial matter to go into a strange state of confusion!

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 10:11
Depends on ambient temperature. Ice is almost always partially melted here, so its covered by a thin layer of water that reduces friction.

Plus, since water always attempts to level itself off in any container it finds itself in, surely frozen water would have very little friction as a result?

DeadTomGC
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 18:37
One thing that Dark basic dude79 said that doesn't really line up with what is sold science is the part about water molecules being easier to move than other molecules. Water actually is very dense and has very high specific heat and therefore is difficult to warm.


RedneckRambo
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 18:41 Edited at: 18th Dec 2011 18:42
edit

meh never mind maybe it wasn't lol. Can't get a straight answer on a quick google search.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 22:52
Quote: "Lot's of theories have been taught but all have been mathematically or otherwise experimentally been dis-proven. "

source?

Quote: "but your weight and inertia force the shoe to vibrate the molecules of the surface"

So... like microscopic stick-slip friction? ;D

It might be easier to understand if instead of saying "inertia" you said "mass"

Quote: " because thermal energy is just the energy of the atoms in the object moving around, an object would have a resistance to becoming warmer due to the atoms not wanting to vibrate faster due to their inertia. This in turn makes it harder for kinetic energy to turn in to thermal energy. Small molecules such as those in ice should have a lower inertia, and thus less resistance to becoming warmer, and thus the kinetic energy has a less difficult time converting to thermal energy. "

I don't follow this logic. It doesn't resist becoming warmer, it becomes warm according to the same rules as everything else. That whole first sentence I can only make sense of as "to make something warm you have to heat it". The second sentence doesn't follow from the first. Also, if the size of the molecules is all that is important: Why is the specific heat of ice lower than that of water?

I thought the reason ice had low friction was because at everyday temperatures the pressure of an object is enough to turn its surface layer into water.

Michael P
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 23:36
Wow this is an eye opener, according to a quick google search the you're right. Never thought this would be such a difficult question to answer :o

WLGfx
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 00:28
Fluffy snow isn't slippery.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 02:18 Edited at: 19th Dec 2011 02:20
See a lot of you have really good points!

@NeuroFuzzy My source for that info is just a quick google search; any website will likely say that there have been lots of theories all of which have been dis-proven. I said inertia as opposed to mass because i was referring to the molecule's resistance to a change in its movement. Obviously though the two correlate with each other...
Quote: "I thought the reason ice had low friction was because at everyday temperatures the pressure of an object is enough to turn its surface layer into water."
That also has been shown to be not true as ice remains slippery down to negative hundreds of degrees celcius.

@CoffeeGrunt i dont think that's it because a metal surface for instance with a more smooth surface than ice isnt as slippery... ( as far as i know)


I suppose we can all agree that this dihydrogen monoxide thing that we depend on is a strange substance!

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 03:49
Quote: "That also has been shown to be not true as ice remains slippery down to negative hundreds of degrees celcius."

where?

wikipedia says:
Quote: "Friction is not a fundamental force but occurs because of the electromagnetic forces between charged particles which constitute the surfaces in contact. Because of the complexity of these interactions friction cannot be calculated from first principles, but instead must be found empirically."

and most other sites either say "my teacher told me this" or "I think it's because of"

I know there's been a lot of debate on the cause of friction and it's not cut and dry, but I don't really get where you're coming from with this.

And... inertia is still a poor word. Inertia is synonymous with mass. Maybe "the molecules are larger and more tightly bound". "inertia force" is completely bogus.

Plus, if what you're saying is true, since specific heat is dependent on the size and intermolecular bond strength, couldn't friction be calculated as a function of specific heat?

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 06:08 Edited at: 19th Dec 2011 06:09
Quote: "wikipedia says:
[quote] "Friction is not a fundamental force but occurs because of the electromagnetic forces between charged particles which constitute the surfaces in contact. Because of the complexity of these interactions friction cannot be calculated from first principles, but instead must be found empirically."

and most other sites either say "my teacher told me this" or "I think it's because of"[/quote]Very nice points there!


Quote: "my teacher told me this"
I have learned to not always believe teachers also. Once i had a teacher that said that ALL gasses were transparent and colorless, when the obvious exceptions of which are chlorine and, as far as i know, bromine and iodine in their gaseous forms. Thay also said that ALL substances contract when freezing and denied the fact that water expands when it freezes!

Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 06:20
I always thought it was due to there being a thin film of water (formed by pressure or whatever), since I'm pretty sure if you slide anything on ice and then examine it, you'll notice moisture on it.

On another topic, finished your video game console yet?



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 10:25 Edited at: 19th Dec 2011 10:34
About the ice, i have noticed that as well! In cold temps as well... Isnt it weird that one of the substances we rely on the most possesses some extremely abnormal properties? I heard another thing somewhere that has to do with the shapes of the ice molecules and how they are able to 'roll' across the ice effectively providing a ball bearing type lubrication.


Quote: "On another topic, finished your video game console yet?"
Haha thanks for your concern! As mentioned previously, i 'accidentally' took a break from the development... Pretty much i pledged to myself that on the first day of September id start development officially, and i did, and i wanted it do be done by now but somehow it got away from me! So, a couple days ago i received an order of parts and began soldering them together, so far the circuit works! The circuit will not be a part of the console, but im getting there. The circuit i have built thus far is really just experimental and also helps me build a bit of courage and confidence in my self when i build the console itself. I expect to have ordered some parts that are legitimately for the console by the end of 2011. Also, expect a link to a video of me demonstrating the circuit once i complete it; currently im waiting on getting some more solder!


Also, i really hate to have the console related stuff here but may i ask for a mod to undo the auto lock on my console thread? Thanks!

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 10:35
Quote: "I have learned to not always believe teachers also. Once i had a teacher that said that ALL gasses were transparent and colorless, when the obvious exceptions of which are chlorine and, as far as i know, bromine and iodine in their gaseous forms. Thay also said that ALL substances contract when freezing and denied the fact that water expands when it freezes!
"

Yeah. My teachers have said "it's cold in space" (when in fact you only lose energy to blackbody radiation), and that "galaxies are flat because of centripetal force" (My theory that I haven't heard confirmed is that it's due to interactions in a collapsing uniform gaseous mass. Globular clusters would then be created from two very old [therefore nongaseous] galaxies colliding).

Teachers man...

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 10:53
Haha that's funny! Im not sure who it is that approves the information teachers get to teach, but they apparently dont do it well. That, or maybe the teachers just decide to come up with their own stuff and call it true!

Quel
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 11:43
How do you mathematically prove or disprove things like does water appearing on the ice surface?

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Diggsey
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 20:12 Edited at: 19th Dec 2011 20:18
Things are slippery when they are smooth on a microscopic scale, it's as simple as that. When water freezes it tends to form smooth surfaces because of a number of reasons including:
- any gaps will be filled by water which hasn't yet frozen because water flows to the local minimum point.
- any peaks will be more likely to melt because they have a greater surface area not in contact with other ice.
- ice is a crystalline structure, meaning it is ordered on the atomic level, so is more likely to be smooth.

It would theoretically be possible to make ice rough on a microscopic scale, in which case it will no longer be slippery. You could make almost any material have as much or as little friction as you wanted if you were able to shape it very precisely.

Also, the fact that ice melts when you (for example) skate on it making it more slippery IS true, it's just that it's not essential to something being slippery.

The reason that smooth things are slippery is because when you have two rough surfaces and try to move them past each other, they will move towards and away from each other repeatedly. If there is a force pushing the surfaces together (such as gravity) then work is done against that force when the move towards and away from each other, which prevents them sliding. This is why the force due to friction is proportional to the perpendicular force between the two surfaces.

[b]
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 22:16
Ah, that makes a lot of sense!

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