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Geek Culture / Growing Business Questions

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old_School
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 06:13
As some of you may or may not know, recently my small business has been growing. So now I’m looking into expanding, better publishers, etc. so I have a few questions for those whom may have good suggestions or answers. Please keep in mind I’m only interested in successful businessman’s answers and not guessing type answers. Today I decided to shop for a publisher for some new software I plan to release in a month or so. To my surprise it as a bit of a challenge to find a decent professional software publishing company. So question one; who would you recommend for publishing office based software?

Another question I have is about sales. As some of you know, I took on two new employees with higher education. Both have a bach. degree but honestly are not measuring up to what I expected. They also seem to be unmotivated and unable to work independently. So I guess the question is should I continue to work with them knowing they will not likely last or dismiss them and try to find replacements? If I should just replace them, how do you recommend I go about replacing them. I mean were is a good place to start looking and how do you recommend I go about it?

Thank you for your suggestions in advance. I’m honestly not a HR person or anything like that but I can tell if people can handle their self in this field or not. Its also hard for me as well currently because everything is taking off so fast and I did not plan/go to college for a lot of things I’m currently encountering. At this point, it has been a huge learning curve. Prior I’ve always been able to work a lone and did not have a need for employee’s but its become a need if I want to continue in this field and continue to conduct business in the future.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 06:21
Just an opinion: maybe the place to ask this would be the stackexchange site http://answers.onstartups.com/?

nonZero
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 07:18
Quote: "Please keep in mind I’m only interested in successful businessman’s answers and not guessing type answers"


By successful, I hope you don't mean exclusively in the software industry. I'm not successful as a developer or publisher (because I choose the path of freeware) but before my health deteriorated, I worked in a managerial position for a successful nation-wide franchise and was one of only about five candidates for regional manager for my province so I don't know if my advice counts or not. Anyways, here goes:

If your employees aren't pulling their weight, tell them. Tell them you're considering replacing them. It's very hard to dismiss a worker these days because the laws of just about every country protect them to the level where you can't fire them unless they've shot the entire office up. But most of them don't think that far when they hear their jobs are on the line. Human survival instinct kicks in and they'll suddenly become quite self-sufficient and, in some way, motivated. If it doesn't work, then make sure you let them go properly. Even if it costs, getting legal consultation on the matter is always best. In today's world, firing somebody for being "unmotivated" is tantamount to turning bronze into gold. So, instead you have to prove that they are costing your company money and that they are not fulfilling the criteria which was agreed upon in their contract (I hope you did get a properly signed contract).

Replacing people or finding people to do a job which require a skill is never easy. Don't assume that a piece of paper saying they survived uni/colledge/zyx correspondance course means anything. Don't be fooled by personality either (we always give our best impression at an interview or while we're on probation). Ask for a portfolio. If they don't have one, give them a small coding take to complete within the next week (meanwhile you can continue interviewing people) and have them hand you the source by week's end. Then it's just a case of whittling it all down. You're gonna have to look at the rolls you want them to fulfill in your selection. For example, if they are expected to work independently, you'll choose somebody with skill over somebody with people/teamwork skills. If they're gonna work on projects involving business software, look for people with knowledge in those fields. For example, a programmer who has a background in accountancy or bookkeeping is useful in making an accounting package as he knows what other accountants are looking for andhe knows what needs to be accommodated in the package. It may also save you money as far as consultancy goes. Remember that the finished product these people produce is the most important thing of all.

Can't really say anything on publishers because I just do freeware and occasionally help friends out (none of them have to date finished a single project, lol). It's a tough market for business-related software when you're up against Pastel, Quickbooks, Microsoft Office, Adobe and Open Office (yes freeware is competition too because its free so you can't compete price-wise).

Well, maybe some of my advice will be useful at least.

Source(s): I've had to hire and fire and wrap-across-the-knuckles plenty of people during my working career.

MrValentine
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 09:49 Edited at: 20th Dec 2011 09:50
Business acrument aside...

regarding the finding of a publisher... it would be kind of if you went to a publisher that was already kicking out some office based program that was similar to you. just saying but I am sure you figured that one already...

In regards to finding one... well it doesnt entirely depend on where you live but I think it helps finding a local publisher... so just check through your local phone book or business directory for your city or country...

I do not know where you are but here in the UK theres two established national phone directories...

Yell.com and thomsonlocal.com not sure about the urls right now... on phone... anyhoo try that...

In regards to hiring and firing I agree with what nonZero said. if I find more to add... I shall do so later

EDIT

oh and congrats on the expansioning keep it up!

bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 10:38
Quote: "They also seem to be unmotivated and unable to work independently."


Are you paying them?


Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 16:50
The non-motivation of staff is your problem, not theirs. Personally I think your in for a world of hurt if your already looking at replacing people. I fully sick of talking about the benefits of real work experience over a degree, too many people with a degree disagree apparantlee. For a small company without project management, dudes with degrees are not a good idea - too expensive, not enough real experience, not enough interpersonal experience... it's smothered in fail I'm afraid. Seriously, you'd get more done with someone without the education IMO, for one thing they might be keen based on their own expectations. If you'd come here and said that you plan to take on 2 developers with degrees, then we would all have stomped on that idea. They will be waiting on you apportioning them a task, like go make a file handler library, or go fulfill this specific requirement, but at the end of the day you need to specify what you need, and if they can't provide it then get rid.

Anyway, the simple truth is that there aren't many companies publishing business software, what tends to happen is that a company will concentrate on 1 family of products, like MES systems for example - companies re-sell MES type packages and can exist like that. If you have smaller applications that you want to publish for business, then I would suggest forgetting the whole idea, and using a marketting company instead. Decent sized companies tend to deal with their own bespoke software needs, because there tends to be an internal requirement that can't be put onto existing software. Frankly, any company that employs a programmer won't want to spend any decent money on bespoke software, no matter what it is they will always look to their software people to meet that requirement. Main thing is that software people would prefer to write the software themselves, I mean if I can write the software myself then I will, I'd spend all day coding to save £20... that's the sort of market your trying to penetrate.

It might help if you have any details about the software your developing, what market is it aimed at?

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
MrValentine
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 18:06
I want to say something here but...

Fallout3fan
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 18:30
Try going to every publisher's website and ask if they want to be your publisher or try to find an agent that will hook you up.
Quel
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 19:24 Edited at: 20th Dec 2011 19:25
Is there really a market for commercial "office-like" products? Sounds like entering the OS field now in 2011...

-In.Dev.X: A unique heavy story based shoot'em ~35%
-CoreFleet: An underground commander unit based RTS ~15%
-TailsVSEggman: An Sonic themed RTS under development for idea presentation to Sega ~15%
Agent Dink
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 19:32
Quote: "Please keep in mind I’m only interested in successful businessman’s answers and not guessing type answers"


So you came to a forum where a very large portion of the user-base are teenagers.

http://lossofanonymity.wordpress.com
Wolf
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 19:46
Quote: "So you came to a forum where a very large portion of the user-base are teenagers.
"


...and most grown up hobbieists with regular jobs? I suggest looking up on a more fitting forum for a professional opinion

The right man with the wrong engine can make all the difference, doctor freeman...
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 20:16
Quote: "I fully sick of talking about the benefits of real work experience over a degree, too many people with a degree disagree apparantlee."


Actually, I agree. I mean there's certainly areas where having a degree has an advantage, but experience is definitely a lot more valuable, because a degree says: "this person is smart enough to do the job" but experience says "this person already knows how to do the job". However, I would think graduates would be MORE than happy to get experience...even work for free, whilst that isn't a motivation helper, but surely getting that work experience and a good reference would be enough motivation to make you work your best.

Merlin's Beard! I've just been doing exactly that. Hard work has meant more responsibility meaning more skills meaning more on my CV and also 3 days paid work this week because they needed me longer than agreed. They're also going to give me a great reference. So your graduates perhaps need to realise that working hard could work to their advantage beyond whatever you're offering them money wise.


On the other hand. You're their boss and their team leader. I can't speak in terms of being a business owner, but I have been a successful team leader and observed how well managers have managed their staff. A good team leader is somebody who can keep their team motivated. It is a part of the job, it's not as simple as saying, "here's the job, do it", it's not how you get the best work out of people. Though there are bad ways of getting people to work their best, I can think of my old manager who'd watch over you like a hawk and have another higher ranked employee keep an eye on you constantly too and they'd both judge your every move...making it absolutely impossible to get settled in - a terrible environment to work in. Nobody should hate their boss, because then the only thing motivating them is the fact they're getting paid and maybe in the case of inexperienced people, getting some experience. In either situation they won't care beyond it.

Of course, I'm not sure what the case is for your guys.

old_School
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 20:46 Edited at: 20th Dec 2011 21:23
Quote: "Please keep in mind I’m only interested in successful businessman’s answers and not guessing type answers."


Some of the above statements seem to really help. Others seem to be typical forum jargin. Anyway, I think nonZero made a lot of sense above to me. I'm thinking it will be best to pull these two in for a one to one meeting and discuss why they are un-motivated. I also should of seen some red flags when they stated they started a home business in the past but failed in the interview.

Also want to point out these are paid positions. I find it rare if a person worth anything will work for free or commission based so I saved some money and reinvested it in my business. I set aside a small lump sum to pay these guys in return thinking it would reproduce a return on the investment.

The reason for hiring people with a degree vs. no education was to reduce risk. Its true as Van stated people without a education can work just as hard as a person with a education. However, the degree I believe builds the foundation for a successful life/understanding of that field. I can train some one more effectively who has a degree in most cases vs. a person with out a higher education. I'm a small business so I must take small risks when I higher someone. I can't afford to take a gamble and higher joe blow who has 20 years in the field but no education. He has no structured education. How do I know if his 20 years of experience was spent counting pennies. The answer is I don't know so that’s why I made a choice to higher the people with the degree's. In the end this time is seems to be a bad choice so far. However, statically speaking is was lowest risk.

Moving on to the publishing issue. I'm proud to state I did get a returned response today from a few publishers interested in seeing the software. I also received some marketing info from NVidia about being able to use their logo on packaging. I’m sure to NVidia it’s just a typical day for them but for me it’s huge to able to place their logo on my software packaging.

The publisher I’m mostly interested currently in Avanquest. From what I've read so far, they are a huge publisher and have several contacts including most major distributors. So going with them would be a plus. The downside is their cut of the cake. Being the biggest also means they take the largest cut. Granted I would be extremely excited to see my products for sale in stores or even make a large amount of sales but money is a factor. It also appears in publishing choices you go big or small, there is no in between. Also read hiring a lawyer is highly advised for discussing contracts and selling software retail wise has very little or no return. Only large companies can stand to make a profit by using retailers to sell their software. Even then it could take months before you get a check after a sale is made. So I guess live and learn. This was also the main reason for hiring one of the two people so he could do the marketing/sales side of this stuff.

Edit:

Just a minor update. After posting this, I checked my Gmail and got a response from small publisher. It seemed to be a fairly nice service. I will be able to use larger publishers as well but this one was fairly nice seemingly for a few sales. Not sure if we can mention publishers or not but BMT Micro is one I just signed up with and Im in the middle of posting the software. So just something for those looking to sell their product. I don't know if they are good or bad. But they have fair pricing etc.
xplosys
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 22:53
BMT Micro seems to be a sales/delivery service. I don't see where they provide any type of publishing service. Please give me a link if they do and I missed it. If this is the case, you are just paying someone to handle sales. Make sure you are only paying per sale and without a contract or you could end up paying them more than you make.

Brian.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 00:15
Quote: "I can't afford to take a gamble and higher joe blow who has 20 years in the field but no education. He has no structured education. How do I know if his 20 years of experience was spent counting pennies. The answer is I don't know so that’s why I made a choice to higher the people with the degree's. In the end this time is seems to be a bad choice so far. However, statically speaking is was lowest risk."


You come off as very naive about the recruitment process. It seems that in order to have an opinion in this thread you've got to have experience and success behind you. So before I talk about recruitment I'll tell you: I was employed as an admin at a recruitment agency 2 months ago only on a voluntary basis, yet my job has ended up being a LOT more than that because I've done my own recruitment and was even put in charge of one of our contracts with our clients and was recruiting staff to them and was successful in doing so and found that they were very happy with me. So hopefully my opinion will account for something.

I think what you should have done is:
1) Ask for CV's/Resumes
2) Talk to them over the phone. Ask them questions, go through their CV with them, ask about their work experience, their skills and how they match the work you're giving them. Get a conversation out of them. See what their attitude is like and how willing they are to work.
3) Bring them in for an interview. See what they're like face-to-face, this is where you can get right down to what's expected of them and the real job specifics. Make sure they are happy to do exactly what you expect of them.
4) Phone up their referees and ask for a reference. You're a business, why not? You can learn a lot from people who have previously employed them if they're willing to talk about them.

I don't think I need to have worked in recruitment to know any of that either. But it's exactly how we do it. You're worried about whether the experience of the less educated guy was spent counting pennies, you can easily find this out through steps 1 & 2 - step 4 is evidence of 1 & 2. So you could find said guy is fantastic, however, you've not given him a chance.

You can also gauge whether the kind of student you've got is a: "I went into higher education so I could better my chances at a career doing what I want to do but lack experience and am willing to work hard to get it" student or a "I went to University because I was pressurized into going" student or the even worse, "I went to University because it was a few more years spent away from getting a real job" student. I think you're still making risks, in fact, you've proved that you are.

old_School
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 02:03
Seppuku Arts I thought the interview process was a given. I mean I don't know anyone who did not interview for their job. The problem was they did great in the interview. It's the after the interview part that is killing me. Sadly enough people lie like dogs in interviews. Also want to point out; the forum has a lot of younger viewers/posters who have zero knowledge about the topic and only an opinion. So I don’t think I'm being naive about the situation. Everyone is on different skill levels on the forums.

Before I hired these people, I had a list of skills and requirements I was looking for that the applicant must meet before being considered. After going through hundreds of resumes, I picked 30 candidates and called them in for interviews. Out of the 30, I found 5 good candidates I found to be outstanding. So obviously choices must be made who do you pick? Just like any recruitment, you review skills and education. At the end of the day, I picked these two for the jobs and it appears I might have made a mistake. I’m going to attempt to correct my mistake through further training/coaching them and see what happens as suggested above.
MrValentine
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 03:14
For the record I am a businessman...

For the thread... in my opinion the OP aka OLD_SCHOOL posted his question here because...
A- he is aware there are a handful if not more successful or well experienced knowlegable people on here... and...
B- like me and many others is on here regulary and values these forums for the value it brings... and as I mentioned in another post... For some people these forums (by these I mean The TGC Forum of course) are almost indespensible and a very attached part of our current day to day doings... if you understand my point... so for those that do not come here often seeing something like this might seem odd... but sometimes there are always underlying factors to peoples actions.

My two cents.

old_School
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 05:58
Well it looks like the problem solved its self. I just received a face book message from one of them quitting because the job is too hard for them. I honestly fail to see how selling a product would be too hard if you went to college for marketing & sales but sure. The other person, I think I’ll just fire them as I’ve already found a replacement for both. I was chatting with an old friend and he needs a job badly. The other person who was not working out was just an extra programmer but I did not really need that person. It was more of just a helper for my self. The sales person though was a need. But I got a message on my face book of all places from the guy saying “hey I’m sorry but I lied on my resume and this job is too hard for me. I can’t do it”.   I honestly have to laugh at this point because it just shows the persons true colors/level or professionalism. Who quits their job on face book? Seriously, who does things like this? Anyway, luckily I’m always one step ahead of the game and hired my old friend whom I grew up with across the street from when I was a child. So I think this is a good educational post for those whom have a small business or are looking to go into business. This is the crazy crap you will encounter most likely at some point.  On a side note, MrValentine is correct to a degree as well. There are a few unsuccessful people or unskilled members in the forums. It would obviously be rude and unprofessional to point fingers at people. Simply because those people may have just not found their nitch or discovered a way running a successful business works for them. It does not mean their hopeless but it means we are not likely to value their opinions or views. Also want to point out reading the TGC forums is a daily task for me. I try to check several forums posts to see what’s new or what others suggest about software & business.  I think a lot of people have misconceptions about running a business. I often talk to a lot of people think it’s a simple 9-5 job. No mater what state your business is in, it’s not a 9-5 job. It’s a very stressful job but can be very rewarding. It also requires a lot of reading, learning new skills, talking to new people and various other tasks. I think the people I hired by mistake of course; A: Were not prepared for the business worldB: I honest do not care one of them lied in the interview but I do care they did not make a real attempt to workC: Common sense obviously was not used on their part. We go to work to work duh. That’s why it’s called work.  Moving on, this new experience has taught me to be more observant and judgmentally during the interview process. Also reinforces my gut feeling to not hire someone unless they seem genuine.
rolfy
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 07:17
Quote: "I can't afford to take a gamble and higher joe blow who has 20 years in the field but no education. He has no structured education. How do I know if his 20 years of experience was spent counting pennies. The answer is I don't know so that’s why I made a choice to higher the people with the degree's.

But I got a message on my face book of all places from the guy saying “hey I’m sorry but I lied on my resume and this job is too hard for me. I can’t do it”. I honestly have to laugh at this point because it just shows the persons true colors/level or professionalism. Who quits their job on face book?
"

Who asks on a forum like this if they should sack an employee?

Quote: "The other person who was not working out was just an extra programmer but I did not really need that person."

I dont get why you made a decision to go through hundreds of applicants for someone you dont really need.

I know you hate me quoting you and you reckon this is just another bit of 'forum jargon' as you put it. But to be honest I dont feel like quoting entire posts, thats why we have 'quotes'.
I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest you actually join a small business group in your area they will give you the contacts and advice you so obviously need, I am not putting you down just offering some sound business advice, I think you are floundering and need to stop going round in circles, your making a lot of bad dcisions and you will sink no matter how good your product is.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 08:59 Edited at: 21st Dec 2011 09:03
Quote: "Seppuku Arts I thought the interview process was a given. I mean I don't know anyone who did not interview for their job. The problem was they did great in the interview. It's the after the interview part that is killing me. Sadly enough people lie like dogs in interviews. Also want to point out; the forum has a lot of younger viewers/posters who have zero knowledge about the topic and only an opinion. So I don’t think I'm being naive about the situation. Everyone is on different skill levels on the forums.

Before I hired these people, I had a list of skills and requirements I was looking for that the applicant must meet before being considered. After going through hundreds of resumes, I picked 30 candidates and called them in for interviews. Out of the 30, I found 5 good candidates I found to be outstanding. So obviously choices must be made who do you pick? Just like any recruitment, you review skills and education. At the end of the day, I picked these two for the jobs and it appears I might have made a mistake. I’m going to attempt to correct my mistake through further training/coaching them and see what happens as suggested above."



Then I don't understand how you've come to the conclusion that graduates are less risky than experienced people. Surely through the interview process you'd have asked said experienced people what their experience actually entailed and know if Joe blow with 20 years experience was counting pennies or not. The guy you hired sounds exactly like student number 3 in my previous post. It might have been interesting to see what his references said. But we're all human, so I of course accept you can misjudge a candidate and of course, when somebody lies you're acting on false information.

So I think from that experience you ought to have less of a bias towards graduates. I can't believe as a graduate I am saying it, but I've often been turned down a job because Joe blow with 20 years experience is more experienced than me and therefore more suitable for the job.

Quote: "Just like any recruitment, you review skills and education."


Review skills, experience, education (though experience can be better), attitude, personality, interest to work, how they feel about your guidelines (always good to make clear how much work they're going to do and what work they'll be doing, rather than rely on common sense) and if you're able to get a reference from them (make it a requirement) you might be able to reduce the risk by finding out how reliable the person is, but also how honest they are. We ask referees things like how honest somebody is, what their attitude to work is like, how flexible they are and what their attendance is like. Candidates who seem really good can turn out to have their own flaws, which may be revealed through a reference.


However, I think Rolfy makes a fair point, whilst I don't know a lot about running a business, it does strike me that you are making mistakes and of course if you can find a business group or even an online business community if none exist in your area then you might be able to get the best advice. You're trying to seek advice from successful businessmen here, so it would be a step up on the quality of advice you'd receive.

Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 09:44 Edited at: 21st Dec 2011 09:46
Quote: "Frankly, any company that employs a programmer won't want to spend any decent money on bespoke software, no matter what it is they will always look to their software people to meet that requirement"
Mostly. But not totally. We have hundreds of programmers here but it's amazing how some stuff we just use free or low priced software to patch areas. Time for the programmers is highly concentrated on our core products with stuff on the edges (stuff that helps us rather than the customer normally) being much less so.

Good point though. We won't spend much at all on extra software that isn't considered crucial (Photoshop, VS etc etc are all over the place). Hardware on the other hand...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
BiggAdd
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 10:42 Edited at: 21st Dec 2011 10:52
I'm actually shocked you needed to hire 2 people for your company.
Is UOKSoftware your company? what products have you been selling that has granted you the means to hire two people?

Quote: "Some of the above statements seem to really help. Others seem to be typical forum jargin."

Quote: "There are a few unsuccessful people or unskilled members in the forums. It would obviously be rude and unprofessional to point fingers at people"

You talk about yourself in your posts like you are this high and mighty company owner, but I just don't understand something. We've all seen your VB software, surely thats not the stuff you are selling!? What is it that is making your company expand?

If you don't want to answer the above questions, thats entirely up to you (as its your business) but I would ask that you don't parade around the forums putting people down in your posts, its not nice and without any form of backing you shouldn't be commenting on everyone else.

Best of luck with your business.

Van B
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 11:21
Some would argue that running a succesful business SHOULD be a 9-5 job. If your working all hours, then your doing it wrong. We've mentioned this before, but maybe our lack of business experience (in your eyes) meant that our opinions were void. Working 9-5 is not a sign of failure, it's a sign of an organised life, with a damn sight less stress than you go through I guarantee.

Do you even know what your work ethic does to people you might work with? - I'll tell you if your prepared to listen.
If you are working intense hours, are stressed out, then why would anyone want to work for you?
Business skills are useless if you spend all your time stressing over code. You should be more organised, you should be more relaxed, and you should try your best to work sane hours. Your not running a business, a business is running you.

This is a hobbyist forum, most people here make games as a hobby - just because making money is not our primary focus, does not mean we are unsuccesful, that's a rediculous conclusion to make. We have all sorts of people here, from lawyers to artists to retired ninjas... experience with failing to run a business is not an entry requirement. If you only want qualified professional businessmen to post in your geek culture threads, then perhaps you need to find another forum, or start your own, or act like a 'professional' and seek proper advice... I know a business advisor would most likely tear you to shreds, but at least you might listen to them.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 14:11 Edited at: 21st Dec 2011 14:13
Quote: "Some would argue that running a succesful business SHOULD be a 9-5 job"
A friend of mine was sacked from his first programming job because he put a lot of extra hours of his own unpaid time in to get things done within the time frames. The boss argued it could be done in that time without any extra hours so booted him out.

That is pretty rare though. Seems to be more like you are expected to give up everything to get through a busy patch (made busy by sales and PM people badly managing things but still...). Especially nowadays with the recession being a good excuse even if your company is massively profiting. Worst I ever did was no holidays for a year, working every saturday (not in the contract), every other sunday, plus for 3 months working 2 hours extra every day (inc saturday) for no extra pay (totally forced by management that one; half the staff left), and for a 3 month period of time in Dubai working at least 80 hours a week (95 hours is my record), and pulling out a 156 hour overtime (paid for at time and a half!!!) month...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Van B
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 15:31
Crunch time is one thing, having that pressure all the time is something else entirely. Could you imagine working in those conditions constantly, like with no light at the end of the tunnel? - you'd be dead already. I'm not going OTT on that by the way, people die due to being over-worked, it's a fairly big problem in Japan and Asia. In a free world, we should only have to work 40-odd hours per week, if you work 80 hours per week, that's 2 peoples jobs, and your an idiot! - even if your getting 2 peoples salaries - they aren't paying you to loose your hair, or your health, or friends, family, relationships, life even... your employer does not own you, no matter what they might think - your ambition does not own you either. My old boss was a bit of a workaholic, old boss mind you - by the end he was signed off sick for 6 months out of the year... not productive. He's on the dole now... not productive. Since he got canned I'm about twice as productive... very productive!

The human brain is not designed to work for extended periods of time like that, most people are fully productive for 5 or 6 hours, thats when most of the work gets done. After that, the brain has to rest before you can expect it to do much more. If programming is a hobby, then it's usually ok because most people would do some programming (or whatever) after dinner, when the brain has recharged and is ready for round 2. That's the way I see it anyway. All nighters are the worst IMO, by the time 2am ticks on, its really better to have some sleep, and make the most of your time in the morning. I've seen myself struggle with a bit of code for 3 solid hours at night, then solve it in 10 minutes the next day. A brain firing on all cylinders (maybe lubricated with coffee) is about 10 times more effective than a tired brain. Air-Traffic-Controllers work for 2 hours at a time, that's it, it's a different sport when hundreds of lives are at risk instead of just your own.

Really, if you need to put in those hours, split the day in 2 - stop at a sensible time, have food, spend time with family, but spend a couple of hours extra at night. You'll find yourself planning your short work period, giving yourself goals, and I am sure thats more productive and healthy than chaining yourself to a desk.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 15:55
Quote: "you'd be dead already"
Depends on your time of life. I'm not talking forever here. When I did those hours I had only been with the company a year, it was my first ever job, I was 23, and wanted to really strive on and make a career for myself. ie. I wasn't ground down from years of redundancies and the like. I was also single and grew up in the sticks where the nearest cinema or McDonalds was half an hour away at least (Dubai was like NY for me, even then).

Plus Dubai at that time was a mega big deal for the company and I was put on a big project with practically no experience (first site visit too) and a 2 month deadline. I had no forewarning (told where I was going and doing 3 days before I left for Dubai) and even was lied to about the period (told was only 3 weeks).

So I basically loved it at the time. Tonnes of pressure and demands, but came out of it fine and was rewarded for it.

Nowadays though I wouldn't do it at all. I work 4 days a week, 7.5 hours a day (the odd extra hour if some emergency comes up), and have a wife. I had to go to Dubai for the first time in 15 years a few months ago and I need to do some mods to their old system (ie. code I wrote when I was 23. I'm 38 now). Slightly stressful how rubbish the old code is, but main thing is the 5 days I was there we did about 6 hour days (then sightseeing) and am now putting in the usual 7.5 hour day back in the UK writing the code remotely for them. They are still in the same old panic/shout/scream/meltdown phases they always used to but we have changed...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
xplosys
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 16:02
The OP is not talking about working long hours for someone else. He's talking about owning your own business, which after you've put so much time, sweat, and worry into, it can become as consuming as a loved one. If you haven't been there you won't understand. There is a world of difference between working for yourself and working for someone else. You just can't compare the two. I don't know any other way to say it. There are no rules for a business owner.

You can discuss whether or not that "should" be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that in most cases, the owner puts in the most hours. The owner is the one worrying about paying the bills. He's the one thinking about the next job in his sleep. In my world, that's just the way it is with businesses I deal with.

All that said, I'm just having a terrible time believing anything the OP says. Most of what he says doesn't make any sense.

Brian.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 16:09
Quote: "The OP is not talking about working long hours for someone else"
Yes, but the discussion was more on whether the OP can expect his employees to be working long hours for him.

I totally agree though. Over the years I've done my own side projects and even though the main job has calmed down loads, these take up loads of time. My latest "Millionaire by next year" scheme is mobile apps. So far I won't be a millionaire next year (far from it), but the amount of hours put in would easily be as much as my normal job every week if it wasn't for my wife. Forget your loved ones and you may as well not bother with working hard. Which is what I was getting at with the Dubai thing. I *could* work like no tomorrow because I had no-one to go home to (yes I know the massive amounts of work probably was the reason why no-one was at home). Kinda helps if you love programming...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
xplosys
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 16:21
Quote: "Yes, but the discussion was more on whether the OP can expect his employees to be working long hours for him."


Ahh, my bad. I get confused by his business speak.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 16:27
Don't get me wrong; I might be well off on that assumption! Either way it was more a discussion with VanB than the OP.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
old_School
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 19:14
Daz and XP really hit the nail on the head. Comparing hourly to ownership is like comparing apples to oranges. Owning a business = no limits. When I went to college for business years ago, I was shocked when my professor told me Bill Gates (my hero) works 90 to 100 hour work weeks. On the flip side its not because he had too but because he wanted too. Owning a business is a labor of love. You can work the 9-5 if you want but if you have a true passion for it you may find your self working more.

A great business man who lives down the street from me and was my childhood friends dad, owns a car repair shop. Similar to how I got started repairing computers of course. We often talk and discuss business ideas etc. Now he is much older now days and sometimes his ideas are a bit cloudy but the one thing he preaches the most is this; “I work extra hours so I can keep my business on top. As a business owner, I think it’s critical to always know and have the best technology available in the industry. You also need to know how to use that new technology. So a lot of times you need to work extra hours to learn how to use it and understand it.”

I find this to be some strong words of advice and he does practice what he preaches. He told me my tire pressure, how much oil I have and various other things using some kind of remote controlled sensor. I assume it works off inferred or something. I don’t know, I’m not a mechanic but it was really cool. So having really cool tools can impress your customers a lot of times and make a sale. Worked on me, I take my car their every 3 months for my oil change. Point is Bo’s concept to me works and makes perfect sense. He has also been in business for over 40 years, so the man knows what he is doing.

Moving on to Big Adds comments. I don’t see how I come off as high and mighty but if I do I don’t mean too. I hired two new people because I have a lot of orders coming in from business. Most of them are local businesses looking for simple software solutions. However, I also have tons of game ideas I know could bring in a little extra money as well I would like to create. The problem is there is only 24 hours in a day and I need rest and various other things in between. So the idea was to hire some one to help program some software. The other person is for sales.

You can agree to disagree with me or agree but sales are what keep a business running in my opinion. In order to make sales, you need a good salesman. I know how to sale thing to people, I not the best but I’m decent. Now as stated I saved up a little chunk of change to hire two new people in order to make even more money or at least that was the idea. That’s typically why other businesses hire people as well to make them money. Anyway, the idea is if I hire someone who is better then me at sales, I stand to make a lot more money. In return the business can grow more and I can more people etc. Basically keep building the company up. So were not talking about rocket science, just basic business concepts.

Now on to the argument about education vs. field experience. This is a argument I think people will fight about for ever. Both sides have good points but in the end ifs about equal. Statically speaking you can hire someone with no experience but with a education for cheaper and they be just as productive as the person with experience. The difference is when you run into odd problems. The experienced person can solve the problem quickly and move on, as where the inexperienced needs to contact me in this case for the solution; which I’m willing to train and help that person get experience in order to save my self a few dollars. Not to mention I was once in their shoes. When I graduated from college, no one would hire me at a decent wage. So its also nice to able to give something back to my local community and help boost the local economy.

Which brings me to my final point, for those who did not know; small business fuels the American economy. When mega companies move in, small business moves out and the local economy goes down. If you disagree, I would suggest you go speak to an economist. Unfortunately it’s true about 95% of the time. For years my friend told me Wal-Mart destroys small business and I brushed him off. When I started my own business, I seen the damage mega corporations can do to small business. So I hope this helps everyone understand a little more about the business world. We don’t see a lot of business related posts on here. So I think it’s a nice change of pace time to time.
bitJericho
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 19:35 Edited at: 21st Dec 2011 19:38
Sorry, can't speak with any sort of hiring experience, just in studying such things. I have run my own projects but nothing took off. Currently I'm in planning mode for some new stuff, and I just mess with projects to see if something looks like it might take off.

Anyway, wouldn't it be smarter to hire people for stuff you're no good at, at least at first, when every employee counts?

I hate to criticize you but let's all be honest here so maybe you can get the advice you're looking for. Maybe hire an artist or a UX designer. They would go a long way towards helping your business grow. You could take care of the programming, while they could make your software look good. You are obviously good at sales if you can sell to local business well enough to support employees, so why hire an extra sales person when you work can work on other areas of your business that may help more?

I guess, I can think of a lot of reasons why you might want another sales person. But you gotta always ask, is that what my business actually needs?


ionstream
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 23:31 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2011 05:05
Quote: "Is UOKSoftware your company? what products have you been selling that has granted you the means to hire two people?"


Stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/user/mholmes3038

Indicium
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 23:44
Roll on 2012.

old_School
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 01:16
I understand you point Jerico but you have to have money to hire a artist first. You also need products to sell to make money. So hiring a sales guy and programer will provide building blocks to allow me to expand and hire an artist in the near furture. Everything has to go in steps or stages of expansion. I think of it like a graph. It costs X amount to hire a person. That person will produce Y amount of income. The X variable needs to be less than the Y variable in order to make a profit. For the sake of keeping it simple, we will call profit margin Z. So basicly z = y - x Basicly you need to make more then what you pay out. So once the y variable is high enough, I can aford to hire person to make more money. However, that takes time. Training and getting people producing a profit takes about 3 to 6 months depending on how fast they learn etc.

Sidenote:
Can a mod please do something about Ionstream posting/mocking this post. Seriously, this is unwatned jargin in what so far has been a fairly nice conversation. Thanks in advance.
Indicium
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 01:30
Your products need to look a lot better. An artist would make them look better. That person will produce more income. It's simple as that, an extra programmer won't help when the limiting factor is the artwork.

Teh Stone
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 01:31
Now days you need to have some sort of experience to get into university in the firs place, I've secured 2 offers thankfully the places I wanted to go but got rejected from the others because I had no relevant experience
ionstream
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 05:06
Fair enough. I feel it is important to people to know what exactly you are referring to before the decide how to respond or spend their time accordingly.

Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 08:55
old_School - From where I stand it looks like you're making a lot of this stuff up, so it's hard for any of us to give you reasonable advice. Did you really interview 30 people? Even my current company, with 20,000 employees, didn't interview 30 people for the position I hold now. It just seems like you're exaggerating, and it would benefit us both if you were more honest.


Software Engineer - TBD
Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 09:54
Quote: "Did you really interview 30 people?"
Depends on the job and the market situation. When our company was about 200 people back in about 1999 we had loads of work to do and needed about 20 extra programmers. I did a lot of interviews at the time and could easily get through 20-30 interviews a month. And I didn't do them all. CV wise the agencies used to chuck hundreds at us.

Dunno about today though. Now we have a couple of thousand employees and I am nothing to do with the recruitment process any more. From what I've seen though they probably do less interviews now. If I had to guess it's probably because every man and his dog has a decent CS degree these days (basically what gets you through the interview door 9 times out of 10) combined with a tonne of experience. They can pick and choose basically.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
old_School
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2011 20:03 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2011 20:04
Daz is correct, it is not hard to perform a interview and in my case my wife did help with the workload during the interview process. Most of the interviews lasted about 10 to 15 mins each and we got them done over a 2 week period of time. Next time I think I might just use a temp service or hire temps. It appears using temps seems to be the way to go these days. I don't know the details or costs of using a temp service but Im sure it is reasonable since so many businesses use them.

Also like to point out on a sidenote. Jeku maybe I'm reading to deeply into your posts but it almost appears as you are trying to intise me to begin a argument. My appoligies if Im misreading it but it just appears that way to me at times.
Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2011 04:41
Since I've barely posted at all this past month due to moving cross country, you're probably mistaking me for someone else And honestly I have better things to do with my spare time than incite arguments.


Software Engineer - TBD

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