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AppGameKit Classic Chat / i was looking at the other engines.

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3d point in space
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Posted: 15th Feb 2012 21:33
Unreal has a game engine too that is currently threed for Ipod development.
Unity also has an engine that develops games.

I looked at the games, and alot of them look better then agk from what I have sceen because of the threed effects. I had a friend try and make me switch from agk to unreal he says that it is alot easier too use.

So how is agk doing againts these engines that seem as they are being more used widely.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, and zipzapzoom apps.
Veterian for the military.
baxslash
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Posted: 15th Feb 2012 21:40
Currently it's not a realistic comparison since AppGameKit is a lot cheaper and does not do 3D. I don't think Unity or Unreal can cover quite the number of devices AppGameKit currently can though...

kamac
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Posted: 15th Feb 2012 21:46
I played a Unity small 3d game on android. Huge lags.

Also, Unity = C#.
AGK = BASIC/C++.

bjadams
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Posted: 15th Feb 2012 21:51
Unity & Unreal are very mature engines, they have been on the market for ages with millions of users.
AGK is still a little baby compared to them. You cannot compare.

If you come from a Darkbasic background, then AppGameKit is the best choice out there.

If you want to do 3D then better look elsewhere.
kamac
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Posted: 15th Feb 2012 22:00
Quote: "If you want to do 3D then better look elsewhere."


... Until AppGameKit will support it.

bjadams
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Posted: 15th Feb 2012 23:36
3d, not any soon though
XanthorXIII
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 01:51
AGK is just starting out but right now the competitors are GLBasic, Monkey, Corona SDK and iTorque(If you can call iTorque a competitor at all)
3d point in space
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 02:08
Yea i don't know yet ether just looks like more people hire if you know those tools.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, and zipzapzoom apps.
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basjak
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 03:54
you're going nowhere with this subject. reading this post makes me feel you are working for unity or unreal.

DBpro Games are getting high in sales. look at steam or intel website.
AGK games have hit over 2 million downloads within 2 to three month on iPhone itself.

Can't wait till I see my AppGameKit app rock the iphone.
bjadams
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 08:19
3dPoint, if you want to be a programmer for hire, forget AGK. Clients usually want the source code to amend themselves, and hire someone else to do updates, that's why they ask for Unity projects.

If you want to publish 2D games yourself, and if you have experience in DBpro, then AppGameKit is very good.

Xanthor, Corona is very good, I released 2 iOS projects with Corona as it has all the functions I need. Another Forum user suggested Construct2 for HTML5 developing, which I fell in love with and bought it straight away.

Wish AppGameKit would develop on a faster basis.
anwserman
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 08:25
You're forgetting a golden rule here: A great engine does not make a great game.

You could have the best, greatest engine and pump out an absolute crappy program (look at Duke Nukem Forever). Likewise, you could have a bad engine and make a rather good game (considering what you had to deal with).

Saying X has YZ means nothing when you don't know how to properly do YZ.

Hi there. My name is Dug. I have just met you, and I love you.
bitJericho
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 11:09 Edited at: 16th Feb 2012 11:13
Don't forget iStencyl. Quite a bit slower than AppGameKit, but interesting.

kamac
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Posted: 16th Feb 2012 13:50 Edited at: 16th Feb 2012 14:12
Quote: "3d, not any soon though"


In my e-mail to Lee, he answered me (yesterday) that they may start working on 3d before even working on Windows Phone 7. So, after releasing Java+OpenGL for browsers. I'd vote for 3d to be started ASAP though, as it's making a great improvement.

Quote: "Don't forget iStencyl"


I have tried one game made with stencyl for HTML or so. It was so slow, that it was hard to play it. (It contained rather nice graphics though)

Also, iStencyl is 150$ a year(!) and AppGameKit is 111$ forever.

Quote: "if you want to be a programmer for hire, forget AGK"


Unless he will get paid for implementing somebody's idea. (He'd program it alone.) During such 'agreements' it doesn't mather if you do it in Unity/Unreal/AGK unless the client certainly specifies the engine.

Though, he could work for hire by the internet. He should know much about NDK/Java too if so, because the client could say "I want my game to run on devices with android 1.6 and up". Then you have to use NDK/Java (If NDK - Without Native Activity which is used in AppGameKit from what i know)


GLBasic is also powerful, costs 101$ instead of AGK's 111$ but cannot compile for browser, which AppGameKit will do.
Also, just compare AGK's site to theirs. That's a big impact on the sales too. I love AppGameKit site's look, it's just great. Simple.

Monkey is a bit more expensive than AppGameKit (10$ difference)and it compiles for all AGK's planned (and actual) devices, besides windows phone 7. Also, it's quite advanced as it's here for some time already. But in it, you write in Monkey Code which is in some way smilar to Java and in my opinion it tottaly sucks. Here's a sample of Monkey Code:



I very dislike it.


Corona SDK is expensive. 200$ for android only. (A year) If you're rich, go for it. Nothing more to add actually, just that it's price is tottaly too high.


And iTorque? I say no thank you. They want 150$ for tottaly useless item.



-IN SHORT-

If AppGameKit will finish it's planned devices and possibly even add more later on...

If AppGameKit will add quite rich in features 3d commands...

... Then it still may be one of the best selling game engines. But still, i'll rely on 3d. People come, watch and think "But it doesn't have 3d and they are most likely not up for adding it, looking at the FAQ".

Quote from the FAQ:

Quote: "Our 3D commands will follow later after the core version has been rolled out to the most popular platforms."


I'm not convinced. (Though now I know that they will be added for sure)

Also, it'd be great if AGK's updates would be faster, but we cannot demand that. It's a huge effort in adding even one command (Has to be added into every interpreter, like for iOS, Android, BlackBerry, MeeGo, Windows and sooo on. Then, they have to test the command and in many cases, fix it)

XanthorXIII
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Posted: 17th Feb 2012 01:46
3D has never been a make it or break it in my book for any of the tools I want to use. What is a make it or break it is the features of the language and it's simplicity. What I seriously wish AppGameKit had right now is Game Center and Open Feint. That's a big one right there for me.
bjadams
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Posted: 17th Feb 2012 08:55
Game Center is iOS only. Not sure if they will integrate it.
OpenFeint is cross platform, so it's a good option.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th Feb 2012 11:46
Quote: "But in it, you write in Monkey Code which is in some way smilar to Java and in my opinion it tottaly sucks."


I happen to think it's a whole lot better than Basic and avoids the ugliness of C++. It's object-orientated, event-driven and "clean" to look at. There could be some hints there for Tier 1.

-- Jim
basjak
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Posted: 17th Feb 2012 12:03
Quote: "ugliness of C++"

actually C++ is very beautiful language.

in languages such as AppGameKit & DBpro objects are already there in the core library. so, if you're about to create something in C++ from ground up, you will have to design your objects and then write the main program similar to what you see in AppGameKit & DBpro IDE.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th Feb 2012 12:27
I think C++ is the most appallingly ugly language in the history of computing, so let's agree to differ!

-- Jim
bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Feb 2012 13:07
yeah, I wish agk had a proper preprocessor and a few platform specific commands. That said, I'm sure it'll come eventually when they're done adding the bazillion features that need to be there for all the platforms.

KareDev
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Posted: 19th Feb 2012 09:57
I would say that AGK's strength lies in that it is very much an engine for 2D games and apps.

Unreal and Unity are very powerful engines, but their primary purpose is for 3D. You can do 2D with them, but really you're always working in "squashed" 3D. This may or may not matter depending on what you want to make.

If you've got a team of 30 people and you want to make the next Infinity Blade, then fine, Unreal is suited for you. However, making a playable 3D game that doesn't look hideous is orders of magnitude for time-consuming than making a 2D one. AppGameKit is really well suited (from my experience so far) to the solo developer/small team who are trying to make a 2D app.
Greenster
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Posted: 19th Feb 2012 13:29 Edited at: 19th Feb 2012 13:30
AGK demos don't look as good as titles by AAA studios on an AAA licensed engine... Just give up TGC..

Also, these are devices that use RAM and Storage off the same chip&bus, some separate BUS, all on buses that are at least 10x slower than even legacy PC ones.. Hence why an AAA studio even battle with lag and why there is no 3D in AppGameKit yet..

Tegra2&Tegra3 and OMAP5(the fastest mobile chips out there) will even struggle with 3D scenes, just factoring in model&texture density and format sizes alone..
basjak
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Posted: 19th Feb 2012 19:16
Quote: "AGK is really well suited (from my experience so far) to the solo developer/small team who are trying to make a 2D app. "

up to now you can create any professional 2d game with AppGameKit whether you are solo or with a team. the limit is your imagination.

c++ is ~~ 30 years old.
basic is ~~ 40 years old.
licensed compilers for C++, basic will cost you 750 fir visual studio
unity licence cost up to 1500 for a single user.
unreal up tp 1700 for a single user.
play station developer fees = 2500.
nintendo developer fees = 2700.

DBpro ~~ 10 years with 600 millions world wide using legal copies of widows.
AGK = 3 month old with billions are using the AppGameKit supported platforms.

both AppGameKit and DBpro will cost you $140.

if you know DBpro, then AppGameKit is just on the table.

care about numbers. how many millions you can reach if you learn this two languges.
bjadams
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Posted: 19th Feb 2012 19:24
The MOST IMPORTANT thing here is that the AppGameKit team are LISTENING to what AGK-users want, and are putting in new features as fast as humanly possible.

This is for me the most important thing.

There are other good sdks out there, no one said you only have to use AGK. When the new 107 update comes out, AppGameKit will be even more usable.
KareDev
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Posted: 19th Feb 2012 23:16
Quote: "up to now you can create any professional 2d game with AppGameKit whether you are solo or with a team. the limit is your imagination."

Oh of course, I wasn't trying to suggest that AppGameKit shouldn't be used for larger projects. It's very powerful. I just meant that in its current iteration, it offers a suite of utilities that are really well-suited to the 2D app startup developer, and I actually think this is really strong.

I've looked at a fair few engines; Shiva, Unity, Torque2D - and I managed to achieve a HUGE amount more in my first week on AppGameKit than I did in any of those middlewares.

Also, regarding this comment above:

"and why there is no 3D in AppGameKit yet.."

I kinda hope that the AppGameKit developers really focus on 2D and don't go down the 3D route. There's already plenty of good software out there for that. AGK's strength for me is its 2D nature.
Greenster
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 10:59
Quote: "Oh of course, I wasn't trying to suggest that AppGameKit shouldn't be used for larger projects. It's very powerful. I just meant that in its current iteration, it offers a suite of utilities that are really well-suited to the 2D app startup developer, and I actually think this is really strong.

I've looked at a fair few engines; Shiva, Unity, Torque2D - and I managed to achieve a HUGE amount more in my first week on AppGameKit than I did in any of those middlewares.

Also, regarding this comment above:

"and why there is no 3D in AppGameKit yet.."

I kinda hope that the AppGameKit developers really focus on 2D and don't go down the 3D route. There's already plenty of good software out there for that. AGK's strength for me is its 2D nature. "


Yeah 2D focus is the smart way right now. It's also worth mentioning there is no networking in AppGameKit right now except for some proprietary socket protocol. We at least need HTTP GET and POST with custom header support so we can use social-network APIs..

People who keep demanding 3D are ignorant to a few things:
1. AAA studios can't even manage content in 3D scenes across most of the current hardware.

2. You have to store 3D model data in arrays in code because of sand-boxing mechanics..

3. Indy devs rarely complete 3D titles because of the production and cost of marketable 3D content. Just look how many successful 3D titles have come out for DBP since it's publishing, or even more proving, how many Indy 3D titles have ever been published..
bjadams
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 11:33
PLEASE forget 3D for now! Give us a complete 2D set of commands, with camera access & options to save pictures to the native picture gallery of the device!

Then I can start making a game with AppGameKit!

I bought AppGameKit because I want to do 2D games for now! TGC have plenty of time to do AppGameKit v2 with 3D, after we have all the 2D functionality we need!
baxslash
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 11:57
Camera access and folder selection should be coming in the next update I believe, you only have about four or five weeks left before the next planned update. HTTP commands are planned for that update too.

3D will come at some point but yes it is not vital at this point. A lot of the popular games available are 2D at the moment anyway. 3D is great when done well but awful when not...

I'll probably stick to 2D for the most part even when 3D is available.

bjadams
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 12:23
I can wait 5 weeks if there will be an option to save sprites to the native ios picture gallery.

Even a T2 guide or sample code would do.

That would be fantastic!
DMXtra
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 13:10
I am not trying to defend AppGameKit here, just dealing with the facts.

AGK is only 6 months old. You can't expect so much so quickly when it has to work on 8 platforms perfectly.

3D will come in the future I am sure, but the distant future. Getting 2D functionality and camera and all the other things come first.

The fact that they are working on Web formats is what gets me excited, that would rock if we can use Java + OpenGL and also to HTML5 as well.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
Mobiius
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 13:22
Quote: "AGK demos don't look as good as titles by AAA studios on an AAA licensed engine... Just give up TGC.."

What a pathetic comment. Of course they don't look as good, AAA studios have bigger budgets with (probably) far more experianced teams of people to create their titles. AppGameKit is not designed for the AAA studios, but for the indie developer.

I think you'll find that AppGameKit is more than capable of competing with AAA studios if the developer knows what they're doing.

My signature is NOT a moderator plaything! Stop changing it!
JimHawkins
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 14:01 Edited at: 20th Feb 2012 14:08
"People who keep demanding 3D are ignorant to a few things:"

I'm getting a bit irritated by Greenster's arrogant posts, especially as it should be "ignorant OF", so some ignorance of grammar is displayed here.

"Just give up TGC" is incredibly helpful! Thanks a lot.

-- Jim
baxslash
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 14:10
Let's not turn this into a flaming. If anyone has a problem with someone's post the best thing to do is report it to a moderator rather than get penalised for flaming the original poster.

Just a suggestion.

MarcoBruti
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 16:41
people get angry easily in TGC forums, it resembles Facebook discussions
Seriously, I think that one of the strongest limitations of AppGameKit is the compilation process to get an executable from the Tier-1, i.e. using Eclipse, NDK, ecc for Android.
Another limitation is the languange: no references (impossible to pass arrays), no objects. I have to manage a lot of things with global variables, and this is not good.
In Dark Basic I had to use memid in order to manage local arrays used to store tile maps.

Something similar could be useful in AppGameKit, too.
For the rest, AppGameKit is really GREAT considering the cost and the quality.
bjadams
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Posted: 20th Feb 2012 17:16
Marco, use T2, no limitations there!
Greenster
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 12:19
@Mobiius: It's called sarcasm kid.. Take note that I'm the only one who actually had the intelligence to notice it's being compared to commercial titles..

@JimHawkins: Pointing out that 99.9% of the people requesting it don't know how the hardware or software works, let alone have ever published anything regarding quality 3D content for any platform, makes you mad? good..

You should also look up the definition of arrogant..
baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 12:34
Quote: "Arrogance: Overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors"


Quote: "It's called sarcasm kid.. Take note that I'm the only one who actually had the intelligence to notice it's being compared to commercial titles.."


I looked it up and saw a parallel. Not a flame, just an observation.

Greenster
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 12:45 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2012 12:46
Quote: "I looked it up and saw a parallel. Not a flame, just an observation."


Yeah and I was wrong(more sarcasm)

I'm going to stop being like that and join in: When do we get vertex shaders and real-time video decoding? Networking and platform support/stability is less important..
baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 12:53
Sorry if I needled you even more Greenster. I was hoping you would see that you could sound arrogant even if it wasn't your intention.

Not everyone gets sarcasm and it's incredibly hard to get it across in text sometimes. Maybe you could be a little more forgiving?

I would have thought that someone of your intelligence could let people know he was being sarcastic and they had misunderstood your intention without being rude in the process... you might have even got an apology.

Greenster
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 21:07 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2012 21:15
@baxslash: There is no witty way to say chips that will be released Q4 2012 still won't support non-procedural 3D scenes.. People ask for the feature over the more useful/realistic ones without looking in to why it's not already there, or in this case, why only AAA studios are publishing 3D titles, and just barely and with hardware conflicts.


EDIT:
Not to mention 3D takes the ~5 existing TGC devs off the more principle features of AppGameKit and creates a huge market-stall for both them and their license-holders. We don't even have HTTP and reliable stability and portability right now.
baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 22:16
Quote: "@baxslash: There is no witty way to say chips that will be released Q4 2012 still won't support non-procedural 3D scenes.. People ask for the feature over the more useful/realistic ones without looking in to why it's not already there, or in this case, why only AAA studios are publishing 3D titles, and just barely and with hardware conflicts."

I know... I'm not suggesting that you have to be witty. I also know that you know what you're talking about. Just asking that you are polite. Some users here are not adults or experienced programmers but they might be one day and they keep coming here for the community attitude we all try to preserve.

People read your comment and misunderstood. They overreacted a little too. I like a friendly atmosphere and appreciate everyone here's experience including Mobiius (who shares a fair bit of sarcasm around here too ) he also knows his stuff!

bjadams
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 22:55
Greenster is right though, AppGameKit needs stability and a full set of 2d commands as a first priority.
baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2012 23:24
Agreed

Luckily at least some of the much needed commands are on their way!

Mobiius
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2012 00:03
Quote: "I like a friendly atmosphere and appreciate everyone here's experience including Mobiius (who shares a fair bit of sarcasm around here too ) he also knows his stuff!"

Yay! Good comments about me! lol

And yes, I like sarcasm. (And sometimes go overboard. )

My signature is NOT a moderator plaything! Stop changing it!
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2012 11:22
Quote: "why only AAA studios are publishing 3D titles, and just barely and with hardware conflicts."


Tried playing 3d pinball on my android, unplayable. Screen too small to see the details of the board, too choppy as well. As a developer, I'd rather focus on quality gameplay than fancy 3d graphics.

DMXtra
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Posted: 25th Feb 2012 12:23 Edited at: 25th Feb 2012 23:56
Quote: "

AGK demos don't look as good as titles by AAA studios on an AAA licensed engine... Just give up TGC..
"


Sorry, my bad. I didn't know this was sarcasm.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
bjadams
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Posted: 25th Feb 2012 16:38
Let's all cool down. Let's give AppGameKit 1 year and then see what kind of games come out.

I think the Cannon Bob game and the Fruit Warriors game from Halley look like good quality products.

I think that after version 107 we are going to see quite a good number of quality games.
baxslash
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Posted: 25th Feb 2012 20:56
Wow, thanks bj! I hope I manage to do the "Bob" project justice

When I have some levels ready I would like to release a demo if TGC are willing to allow it.

DMXtra, the comment you are quoting was sarcasm, not intended at face value. I think this matter is resolved now.

DMXtra
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Posted: 25th Feb 2012 23:56
Baxslash, thanks for telling me. I didn't get the sarcasm. I corrected my previous email.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.

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