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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK Survey - Please give TGC your valuable feedback!

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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 16:45
Hi,

We are keen to hear from you. Please take a few minutes to fill in this survey:

AGK Survey

Cheers,

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
MrValentine
AGK Backer
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Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 17:00
DONE!

MikeMax
AGK Academic Backer
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Location: Paris
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 17:10
Done too
baxslash
Valued Member
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Location: Duffield
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 18:05
Done.

Mobiius
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Joined: 27th Feb 2003
Location: The Cold North
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 18:09
Done.

My signature is NOT a moderator plaything! Stop changing it!
The Zoq2
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Joined: 4th Nov 2009
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 18:16
Done
bitJericho
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Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Red5
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Location:
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 18:31
Done
kamac
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Joined: 30th Nov 2010
Location: Poland
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 20:53
Done

MoneyWisher
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Joined: 12th Jan 2012
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 21:37
And me too
IronGiant
AGK Bronze Backer
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Joined: 27th Feb 2012
Location: the great state of madness
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 21:59
Just as Sam Flynn said to the girl laying on the ground after jumping out a window with glowing red wings on, "DID IT!!"

Its Bird! , Its Plane!, No its a rocket powered Squirrel with a Smile and some Nuts!
Cor
AGK Developer
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Joined: 19th Dec 2010
Location: Its a trap!
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 22:55
Done
Impetus73
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Joined: 28th Aug 2011
Location: Volda, Norway
Posted: 27th Feb 2012 23:23
Done!

----------------
AGK user - novice
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's, just started programming again with AGK.
CumQuaT
AGK Master
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Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posted: 28th Feb 2012 01:27
Done like a dinner.


Hodgey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2012 06:20
I'm going to pick a different word...completed.

XanthorXIII
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Posted: 28th Feb 2012 07:13
Answered. I hope it helps you guys to focus on what we want.
Nokiaqd
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Posted: 28th Feb 2012 07:48
Done..


App Game Kit Survey
Your response has been recorded.

badablog.ru - bada developer
Scotty1973
AGK Backer
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Location: Burton-on-Trent, uk
Posted: 28th Feb 2012 09:33
Completed !!!
App Game Kit Survey
Your response has been recorded.
The Slayer
Forum Vice President
14
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Joined: 9th Nov 2009
Playing: (Hide and) Seek and Destroy on my guitar!
Posted: 29th Feb 2012 20:53
Done!

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 2nd Mar 2012 01:12
D-didilly-done!


SoftMotion3D
AGK Developer
18
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Joined: 24th Aug 2005
Location: Calgary,Alberta
Posted: 7th Mar 2012 04:58 Edited at: 7th Mar 2012 04:58
Cool Done......Hopefully we can get multi touch screen support for windows 7 tablet. Keeping fingers crossed.

anwserman
12
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Joined: 20th May 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 05:38
Here's my survey.

How would you improve AppGameKit?
Quote: "Include a working debugger.
Have the compiler actually return an accurate line number when throwing an error.
Allow local arrays as well as global arrays
Allow local arrays as well as global arrays
Allow local arrays as well as global arrays
Allow local arrays as well as global arrays
Allow arrays in types
Allow arrays in types
Allow arrays in types
I shouldn't have to repeat myself
Allow arrays in types
Have the IDE expand/hide codeblocks
Ability to play more than one sound effect at once
Allow arrays in types
Ability to dynamically insert and destroy items in arrays (Insert, InsertAt, DeleteAt, etc)
Fix the crashing redimming of arrays
Fix the Android Player so we can sell apps on the Android Marketplace
Improve the placement editor because it is functionally useless (I hardcode all of my GUI's?!!)
Ability to call up text/number/input boxes on mobile devices
Paste sprite
"


If 3D is of particular interest to you, what are the most important features you would look for?
Quote: "Capsule/sphere collision with ability to link objects (parent/child)
Raycasting collision
Accurate(triangle mesh) and bounding mesh collision
Basic 3D mesh loading and animation
Hardware lights
Hide/show groups in a mesh
Texture different groups in a mesh
LookAt feature in DBPro"


What's are the worst things about AppGameKit?
Quote: "
It somewhat feels like an improved yet simplistic version of DarkBasic Pro, except it's applications are for mobile devices. It's current limitations (ARRAYS, ARRAYS, ARRAYS, GRR ARRAYS IN TYPES) severely limit what type of programs you can create with it.

Yes, you can create anything. But just like with DarkBasic Pro, getting from A to C is more like a hackjob after a hackjob instead of an elegant solution. And much like any other hackjob in life, the more you keep slopping on in order to get something to work - the messier the code gets! "


What's the best thing about AppGameKit?
Quote: "It's for mobile devices. It really is code once, deploy to all."


Any other comments?
Quote: "Release a new trimmed down version of DarkBasic, or incorporate the working functions of DarkBasic into AGK. Make sure any new version of Dark Basic can....

---Ability to return user-defined types from functions.
---INCLUDE ARRAYS IN TYPES :3

Gut the entirety excess of fat that is currently bloating DarkBasic Professional. Remove half-implemented or not working features. Make DarkBasic Professional become obsolete by making a new awesome version of it (I'll gladly fork over more money for an updated engine).

Hell, make the toolkit COM accessible FROM THE BOX. Many other COM based 3D engines for the PC have died (Truevision3D, 3DState), and there is a huge void for C# and VB.Net development. Ditch the entire concept of having your own compiler and focus on bringing DarkBasic into the world of native object-oriented programming languages."


Hi there. My name is Dug. I have just met you, and I love you.
bjadams
AGK Backer
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Posted: 12th Mar 2012 08:31
Darkbasic is DX based. Eventually AppGameKit will have all teh bells and whistles of Darkbasic, but done in a better way, as now TGC have much more experience of what users want
anwserman
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Location: Wisconsin
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 10:51
Quote: "Darkbasic is DX based. Eventually AppGameKit will have all teh bells and whistles of Darkbasic, but done in a better way, as now TGC have much more experience of what users want "


This is what I fear. I will admit, anything that The Game Creators programs and sells now is way out of my league in terms of coding ability and management. I will concede that fact.

However, instead of adding new features, how about working out the current problems with the toolkit? As a customer who is developing multiple projects with AppGameKit, I would much rather:

*Get multiple sounds to be played at the same time, which is implied in the documentation but fails in real-life
*Manipulate arrays within the code, without having to wonder whether or not declaring it in a IF/ELSE block will crash the app
*Be able to deploy my application onto the Amazon Marketplace, which currently can't be done because the Android AppGameKit Player cannot hold state between switching apps

Look at Google Code. Many of the issues there are improvements slated to be in the next build of AGK. I understand that, as a toolkit there is supposed to be a natural evolution of the tools. But instead of worrying what new features will be included in the next build, let's make sure AppGameKit has a proper debugger. Let's make sure that the compiler always correctly displays which line the code errors out on.

In a sense, switching back to procedural programming from object-oriented has been a huge change for me. I programmed in DarkBasic for a bit, but in the end for me it became less about programming and more guessing how I can jury-rig the applications to work.

As a customer, I don't want to see AppGameKit go down that same path.

Hi there. My name is Dug. I have just met you, and I love you.
baxslash
Valued Member
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Location: Duffield
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 11:17
@anwserman, you are dead right.

Adding bells and whistles is great when you have a solid and stable product. Many companies (including the one I work for) tend to add the bells and whistles to make more sales then loose customers to their competitors because they aren't listening to them and fixing the main bugs and gripes that already exist.

TGC are good listeners and if we continue to make it public both here and in the bug list then chances are they will come good.

Try to encourage others to do the same. People feel better when they have an official way of reporting bugs / enhancement requests. Especially when the list gets some genuine attention like the AppGameKit one does.

bjadams
AGK Backer
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Posted: 12th Mar 2012 13:08
Answerman it has to be a mix of both. What there is has to work faultlessly. TGC have to listen to users and fix immediately not wait 1 month for an update. I use other SDKs and they roll out updates on a weekly basis.

*multiple sounds - i would love if AppGameKit has more advanced sound options, especially playing seamless mp3s.

*Manipulate arrays within the code - i use t2 so problems in t1 are all alien to me

*Be able to deploy my application onto the Amazon Marketplace - i need this too

On top of those we still need some basic image manipulation & creation commands to be able to do basic apps.

Sure TGC are telling us "look what others have achieved with the current version", but this is not the right mindset. Every month that goes by, other SDKs improve by the tenfold. I would really like to see AppGameKit on the same level, so that I can make good use of my purchase & not have to throw away all that I learned from the darkbasic platform.

That said, we will wait for 107 and discuss after.
JimHawkins
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Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 15:58
I've spent several months looking at all the options for cross-platform development, and I have to say that none of them (including AGK) are perfect. Most of them work well at an elementary level, but when things get complex they tend not to perform. This is understandable given the diversity of approaches on different platforms.

A lot of the complaints are from Tier 1 users. It seems to me that Basic is an archaic language and constantly fixing it up just creates syntactic confusion. I look at the contributed code for various functions in the user submitted topic and my heart sinks. Vast amounts of globals. Impenetrable code with loads of # marks.

I can see why Blitz went for a new but powerful language (Monkey) with inheritance, events and function overloading. In other words, a language suited to the task. I can check the HTML5 running on an iPad or Android phone in a few seconds just by sticking the files on a server and opening them in a browser, without any developer licencing.

The key points for me are that the graphics and audio function calls are reliable. AppGameKit performs well in this respect, and I agree that we should wait for a new release. And then give it a good thrashing!

-- Jim
baxslash
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Posted: 12th Mar 2012 16:29
Quote: "A lot of the complaints are from Tier 1 users. It seems to me that Basic is an archaic language and constantly fixing it up just creates syntactic confusion. I look at the contributed code for various functions in the user submitted topic and my heart sinks. Vast amounts of globals. Impenetrable code with loads of # marks."

Perhaps you don't mean to be offensive but the implication that Tier 1 users are being more picky than Tier 2 users is a little hard to swallow.

The "Basic" language makes cross platform development easier for everyone because the amount of experience of every other native platform you need is minimised to what is required by the interpreter. It may seem like an outdated way of programming but basic is just a language that gets compiled like any other. Arguing that it is harder to read is just a joke.

It's exactly this kind of elitist attitude that I've enjoyed not seeing on these forums.

TGC has for many years fought the attitude that "Basic" is archaic. It may tend to be used by inexperienced users but that doesn't make it a waste of time.

MrValentine
AGK Backer
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 17:34
is it not that time for a new president?

I elect baxslash for Forum President!

baxslash
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Posted: 12th Mar 2012 17:35
Nobody as grumpy as me should be president of anything

MrValentine
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 17:36
Quote: "Nobody as grumpy as me should be president of anything "


Values of a president indeed!

baxslash
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Posted: 12th Mar 2012 18:10
Well anyway, this isn't an attempt to win popularity.

Frankly I think Basic is probably never going to be as pure or as fast or as clever as a less derived language it's just that in order to reach all these other languages I think it's easier to get to all of them using a derived and diluted language like basic because it can be diluted to only include commands that can work with all of the other languages.

It is really a middle man, allowing you to "write once and deploy everywhere". No Tier 2 language can do that because you are compiling into a native format.

I'm only saying that to say it is archaic is to misunderstand what AppGameKit is all about because without "basic" there would be no AGK. Basic is where TGC have found a niche that is popular because of its simplicity and in AppGameKit because it crosses boundaries "basic" languages have never crossed before.

People who learn basic may very well be at a disadvantage when it comes to being "real" programmers because it saves them from having to understand a lot of what is required for a game to run.
Quote: "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration
Edsger W. Dijkstra"


However, we do live in a world with a declining requirement for knowledge and experience. These days anyone with a pretty good understanding of computers can design complex buildings using CAD software that would have taken decades of training and experience only 10-15 years ago. Before basic was first developed programmers were all advanced scientists and mathematicians. These days kids under the age of 10 can create games that would have baffled those same scientists and mathematicians.

Is a tool that makes these leaps easier a bad thing because it cannot do some of the things that some of the other languages can do? No, it's necessary that it cannot do some of those things so that it can be truly cross platform. If one language that AppGameKit supports cannot do something then the basic language may or may not be able to support it, it depends on whether the boffins at TGC can find a way to twist the interpreter for that language enough.

MrValentine
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 18:20
Quote: "Well anyway, this isn't an attempt to win popularity."


Lies Lies!!!

Another presidential value ^^

But yeah some misunderstand the POINT of AGK...

I fully understand both sides of it

JimHawkins
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Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 12th Mar 2012 23:24
I don't think there's anything offensive or elitist in what I wrote. The point I was attempting to make is that constantly trying to fix up the deficiencies of Basic (which is what quite a few wish-list posts appear to do) is not a perfect solution.

-- Jim
baxslash
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Posted: 13th Mar 2012 00:27
Jim, I just felt that you were implying that the people who were complaining were Tier 1 users in the majority as opposed to Tier 2 users and that their wishes were less relevant because the "basic" language was outdated and unnecessary. I found that offensive (I hope you understand)

There is a snobbery towards "basic" languages that I thought you were re-enforcing with your post.

I actually use .NET at work and fully understand the failings of "basic" languages and derived scripting languages only too well but I also know that without "BASIC", programming would be the domain of professors and scholars. Most of the people who like to think they are above such languages don't realise where C++, VB, Java and most of the other commonly used languages they are so snobbish about get their influences from.

Anyone who has tried programming in fortran can understand why "BASIC" was developed in the first place!

I'm sorry if you think that fixing the deficiencies of basic are less important than your own issues.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 13th Mar 2012 01:19
baxslash - I have no snobbery about this at all. 99% of the time I program in Pascal. The snobbery I suffer comes from C++ programmers who think that Pascal is somehow incapable of producing efficient code.

Quote: "I'm sorry if you think that fixing the deficiencies of basic are less important than your own issues."


I don't really have any issues about this. I've been programming for about 35 years. But I do worry that the vast number of globals and lack of modularity actually make it far more difficult for people new to programming than a clean OOP language.

Answerman has repeated many times that local arrays are really needed. Totally agree, but I can see that's a problem with how AppGameKit Basic allocates memory; on the stack or on the heap, and how it handles memory when variables go out of scope. That's a massive change for Paul, Lee and the others in their compiler/interpreter architecture.

Just trying to be helpful and thinking about the future!

-- Jim
anwserman
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Posted: 13th Mar 2012 02:35
Quote: "Answerman has repeated many times that local arrays are really needed. Totally agree, but I can see that's a problem with how AppGameKit Basic allocates memory; on the stack or on the heap, and how it handles memory when variables go out of scope. That's a massive change for Paul, Lee and the others in their compiler/interpreter architecture."


This should have been something that should have been addressed before AppGameKit was released. I'm guessing that AppGameKit and DBPro share the same common compiler, and thus some problems have carried over.

At least in DBPro we had the ability to use pointers in order to 'fake' arrays within types.

I guess, I wish the code base in AppGameKit would get further developed. As stated earlier, I would rather have an update to AppGameKit that furthers array usage and application compatibility than adding 3D.

Hi there. My name is Dug. I have just met you, and I love you.
JimHawkins
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Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 13th Mar 2012 08:59
I'd add to that a simple Make file system which would build across all selected targets in one go.

-- Jim
baxslash
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Posted: 13th Mar 2012 10:45
Quote: "baxslash - I have no snobbery about this at all. 99% of the time I program in Pascal. The snobbery I suffer comes from C++ programmers who think that Pascal is somehow incapable of producing efficient code."

That being the case I don't fully understand your comment about the basic language being archaic. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning but the only conclusion I could reach was that you either didn't understand what the basic language did or that you had some form of snobbery towards derived languages. I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

Quote: "But I do worry that the vast number of globals and lack of modularity actually make it far more difficult for people new to programming than a clean OOP language."

I agree, OOP is a concept that is relatively easy to grasp and makes far easier code to read and understand. Unfortunately OOP is not fully supportable in all of the languages basic needs to cater for. That's the disadvantage of its existence. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages though in my opinion. Vast numbers of globals are not necessary if a game is well structured in basic though. Using functions, arrays and subroutines correctly you can produce a surprisingly neat solution.

Maybe I should do a bitesize tutorial on code structure in basic...? I'm not the world's expert on programming but I should be able to help people avoid this pitfall.

Quote: "I guess, I wish the code base in AppGameKit would get further developed. As stated earlier, I would rather have an update to AppGameKit that furthers array usage and application compatibility than adding 3D."

Yes I agree...

Quote: "I'd add to that a simple Make file system which would build across all selected targets in one go."

Definitely!

IBOL
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Posted: 6th Apr 2012 23:41
ok i forgot about this when i took the survey, but:

i use files for debugging. my program writes to file what it did last, so i know at what point it stopped.
but when there is an unknown crash (agk has stopped working),
i very often get a *Blank File*


i don't know why this happens (does it save all file writing until it's done running)
but it's very difficult to work with.
i get errors with no reported reason (no line number or error type)
and i need to track them down.
often they seem random.

help!

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 7th Apr 2012 16:15
If a file is opened in an app, written to, and the app closes cleanly, then the output is created when the file is closed.

If the app crashes, the buffered file output disappears.

This is my version of the debug file stuff:


It always opens and closes the file before/after each write. That forces the output to be flushed to the file immediately.

I learned this lesson a long time ago in lots of other languages.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady

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