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Geek Culture / Playstation 4: NO 2nd-Hand Games - Whaaaaat?

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RedneckRambo
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Location: Worst state in USA... California
Posted: 17th Apr 2012 22:14 Edited at: 17th Apr 2012 22:16
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Quote: "Why Nintendo....
"

Think about it. If people think Sony or Xbox new consoles won't allow second hand gaming, that would surely gain more fan base towards Nintendo. Even if (hopefully when) Sony or MS announce that it was all rumor and isn't true, many people probably won't read it and the rumor that they don't allow second hand gaming will still float about. It's not going to gain millions of followers of course, but it's certainly a sneaky way of gaining some more customers. Yes of course eventually everyone will know the truth, but by then, there will probably be many who bought Nintendo's console. Unless they don't have a console coming out around the same time then I don't know why they would bother doing this. I assume they do? I haven't paid any attention to what Nintendo is doing.

I know I for one would absolutely 100% refuse to buy a console that doesn't support used games and I'd be one buying Nintendo.

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rolfy
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Posted: 17th Apr 2012 22:34 Edited at: 17th Apr 2012 22:57
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Quote: "Read your receipt from a retail store which solely sells second hand games/dvd's"


Quote: "And no I still accept Second hand stored shutting down as they do not have proper tax systems again just read your receipt... UK SHG stores charge VAT but you can not claim it back... hence I call dodgy...

Yes I am a VAT registered Business owner.."



I am not in any way wanting to upset you but I cant for the life of me work out how a store of any kind second hand or not is dodgy because they charge VAT and its right there on the receipt, doesn't this mean they are handing over to the Inland Revenue?

Now here's the bit that likely to upset you....

Whats dodgy is expecting to claim back VAT on a non-business expense....or am I misinterpreting you?

If your VAT registered then I would expect your business turnover is over 40,000 gbp per year and you can well afford to pay yourself a decent wage with no need to claim VAT back on luxury goods for yourself through your business.

If your a VAT registered business owner then you will know that they are far more stringent in going through your accounts.

If I have misunderstood and your not upset because you cant claim it back then I apologise, but if anything that VAT payment cant be claimed by the game store either as they didn't pay it.....you did....but I never heard of anyone claiming VAT back for any goods they bought from any store, that wasn't a business expense.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
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the_winch
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 00:45
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This is why you can't claim back VAT when purchasing second hand goods.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/schemes/margin.htm

The reason you can't claim back VAT on second hand goods is because it is possible to sell second hand goods including VAT but not have to pay any of the VAT to the government.

If the government let you claim back the VAT they could end up paying you money they didn't collect in the first place. Since the government gets to make the rules they make sure that doesn't happen.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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That Guy John
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 00:53
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Quick
Maybe not solely based off of second hand games, but off the top of my head.. GameStop, GameXchange and there are a few other mom and pop shops in my area.

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rolfy
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 04:18 Edited at: 18th Apr 2012 04:24
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Quote: "The reason you can't claim back VAT on second hand goods is because it is possible to sell second hand goods including VAT but not have to pay any of the VAT to the government."


Actually VAT is still paid just the profit margin is calculated though, I only have my own receipts (if I can actually find any) to check that out.

How margin schemes work:
Quote: "You have to charge VAT when you sell taxable goods. If there was no VAT on your purchase invoice, you will have to pay HMRC the VAT you charged on your selling price, but you won't have any VAT to claim back on your purchase price. Margin schemes can save you money if you sell certain types of goods on which there was no VAT for you to reclaim because they duplicate the effect of standard VAT accounting. In other words, they allow you to pay VAT on the value you added to the goods, rather than on their full selling price."

In other words you calculate VAT from your profit margin. This of course makess it difficult for you tell if you paid more VAT than you should since you dont know what they paid for it before selling on. Anyway, VAT is still paid you just pay less, or at least the buyer should, it wouldn,t help the seller to charge you more VAT it doesn't go into their pocket.

Still doesn't make second hand stores dodgy.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
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Quik
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Location: Equestria!
Posted: 18th Apr 2012 08:50
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Quote: "Quick
Maybe not solely based off of second hand games, but off the top of my head.. GameStop, GameXchange and there are a few other mom and pop shops in my area."


Quik* atleast try to get the name right..

So, you mentioned a buisness, running ENTIRELY of second hand games, but you cant even mention ANY? Doesnt that make your argument completly invalid?


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 21:31 Edited at: 18th Apr 2012 21:31
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If this really does happen we can say goodbye to taking a game around a mate's house (unless you really want to carry the entire system around with you), or simply lending a game to said mate. Or reselling the game. Or renting it. Who knows, maybe this will be the generation where consoles die.

Off-topic:

nonZero: Thanks for the support in the other thread the other day, it's appreciated. I didn't reply since I didn't want to accidentally trigger an off-topic conversation about how awesome I am etc... but really it's appreciated.



Support a charitable indie game project!
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nonZero
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 21:39
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Quote: "Thanks for the support in the other thread the other day, it's appreciated."

No prob

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That Guy John
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 21:43
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Quik*
Wasn't an argument, just made a statement.
Rather or not a store's business is based solely from second hand game sales or not it will still be a pretty good punch in face for them.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2012 01:45 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2012 01:48
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rolfy - no worries, just puzzles me that they can charge VAT on something and not allow claiming of it...

I buy most things including games for my business, pretty much anything I buy is for my business uses these days...

Software,
Hardware,
Equipment,
Accessories,

[joke] People...

so whatever I buy and pay VAT on I expect to claim that cost back...

the need to be turning over 40k is sort of not the point you can register for VAT voluntarily depending on your business type and needs, as a food outlet will not be paying for VAT'able goods as food is often VAT free though once prepared [like in a restaurant] then VAT is added immediately... weird right?

but as I purchase many VAT'able goods such as Computer parts, software etc

and as these costs run in the hundreds often as in per purchase or per item [like 3 items or more or single items...] that total say 300 of X currency [Of course I mean in Pound Sterling as me and some of us think you too rolfy are based in the UK] is holding a huge chunk in VAT currently 20% in the UK... so out of 300 [£] {goes to get calc} 60 [£] is VAT... thats a lot of money which I could use for wages or running costs...

So depending on your business type, registering for VAT has some benefits and some negs... for example I have to file a return every 3 months instead of annually [every 12 months] which I believe I had an option of quarterly or half yearly [6 months] which would see a cash injection back into the business depending on what and hos much I spent of VAT'ed goods... [and remember my Accountant likes to get paid ]

And being in Media and IT... I tend to spend a lot in such things...

and the debate about buying games for the business.... Research anybody? [frankly its been a while since I played a game just to enjoy it... as I focus too much on understanding the mechanics more than enjoying the games... same goes for movies...]

Mirrors Edge is an excellent game for research and also DREAMFALL, very inspiring games for environment, colour, and texture.

but yeah lets end the VAT receipt debate here as I guess its understood now

EDIT

Don't you just hate it when you clicked Send and noticed an i instead of an I lol...

Corrected typos... in bold.

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nonZero
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2012 11:07
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Quote: "though once prepared [like in a restaurant] then VAT is added immediately... weird right?"

Yes & no. Logic doesn't have to be practical, merely logical. If what you say is true, than the VAT you you pay is not for the food but for the service (Preparing the food??? "Rental" of your table in that wonderful ambiance of chattering adults, screaming children and clattering dishes as they fall to the ground??? Being given the food by waiters???). I assume services are VAT'able in UK since they are in my country. It's a crazy world we live in.

Actually, on 2nd-hand games, my country's "small businesses" (I think it's anything making less than 50k p/a) are not taxed at all - except when they buy stuff and pay their 14% (VAT is 14% in RSA) like anybody else. Some costs are to a greater or lesser extent reclaimable but it depends on the category the entity falls into. In our country, there's a small chain (not really a chain as they only have two shops to my knowledge) called TradeStation - yeah clever name - that deal in 2nd-hand console games. They offer selling, buying and trading (you can trade greater valued games for lesser ones at no cost). They still pay annual VAT on their takings - even though the VAT on the games has technically already been paid with primary sales. Technically you shouldn't have to pay VAT on second hand stuff since the VAT has been paid, but anyhow the government wants money. Prolly coz our president has 6 wives (that's not a joke, Google "Jacob Zuma number of wives").

Quote: "the debate about buying games for the business."
Reminds me of something funny. In my country, most business owners put almost everything on the business account. You can get away with most appliances such as fridges, microwaves, stoves and even cutlery and crockery. TV's DVD players also fall under this category as long as you say it's for presentations if asked - which they never do. If you owned a media-related business or a supply business you could get way with this too, including putting games and DVDs and CDs on the business account. Some people even buy clothes on their bussiness. I worked for a guy and our uniforms were black jeans and a black golf-shirt with the company logo embroidered on. Guess what colour most of his and his son's jeans were? There's little control with stuff like this. Yeah, RSA has it's perks too Corruption FTW! - (just kidding... or am I?)

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Quik
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2012 11:14
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Quote: "so whatever I buy and pay VAT on I expect to claim that cost back..."


Well thats a great mindset. No, not really imo -> VAT is there for a reason, and its not something you later "can claim back", well, offcourse by selling your product, but its not money you are entitled to regain. If you dont want to pay VAT then why do you live wherevr you live?

I know here in sweden we have 30% taxes from our money from jobs etc, iam uncertain about what the taxes on stuff we buy are, but i would expect it to be about the same, and very few people here complain about it. Why? Because its a choice we all agree on -> we all get better healthcare ,school, heck iam sure even the government pay the cops and all that good stuff with that.

Main point? If i break a leg, i dont need to pay anything. Which is, in my opinion a GOOD thing.

but now iam running off track...


The result of origin.. Oh and ponies
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MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2012 19:30
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Oh my bad... What I meant was goods which I buy for the business like software and hardware not food at a restaurant lol...

So when I said I expect to be able to claim back I meant that not restairants lol...

I am strict about what is personal spenditure and business expense...

But lol love how these topics evolve hahahaha

I agree with the conspiracy of Nintendo leak... Its a logical thought... Lol

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nonZero
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Posted: 24th Apr 2012 09:06
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Well, looking at things as they stand, it doen't matter if its true or not. There's a cyber-storm brewing about it and both brands are gonna realise that they'll be losing console sales (which means countless losses of title sales as no console = no games) so they'll more than likely change their minds if it is true.

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