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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK on anything besides Windows

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Inspire
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Posted: 9th May 2012 10:28
Hi. I've been posting on these forums a lot as of late. I have been a loyal TGC customer for quite some time now, so I am genuinely surprised as to how unsatisfied I am with AGK. Please tell me I'm wrong, because I genuinely want to use this product.

I have been attempting to write the simplest of apps in Tier 1 AGK. Right now it's only around 1000 lines of code. I run my compiled app on Windows, and it works flawlessly. Great! Now let's try to put it on other systems, which is the point of this product, right?

Doing so has been a complete nightmare for me. I am using AppGameKit to program an app for a class I am taking in game design, and one of the reqirements is that it has to run on a Mac. I followed the instructions in the guide to a T, and I am encountering all sorts of errors. There is like 8 lines, there is no way I missed a step.

- The window stays in the same shape that the Player is originally
- The app crashes extremely soon after starting (for no apparent reason)
- The random() function is apparently broken.

I am forced to show up in my class tomorrow and say that I have nothing to show.

As a side note, I would like to say that I tried both exporting to iOS and Mac through XCode, but that is apparently impossible considering that the guides are written for an outdated version of that software. Many of the steps no longer apply.

I feel like I just wasted $100 on a watered down DarkBasic (which I own and am very happy with). Can somebody help me with any of this?

bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 11:36
I had a totally different experience with AGK.

I use C++ (Tier 2) and the process of converting between Windows, iOS, Android & Blackberry Playbook works fine.

The guides contain all the basic info to get you going. However I see many complaints from many people. I can understand this. Many people do not have experience in MacOs or Xcode or iOs or Android or other OSes. The first time around doing things won't be easy, if you come from a Windows mindset.

It's no wonder iOS developer are highly sought after. Setting all up, is not as easy as Windows programming, at least if you never done it before.

There any many Youtube videos how to set things up in Xcode and Android. Some of them are by little 14 year old kids. People need to do a bit more effort and gain some knowledge of how things work on other OSes before giving up.
Inspire
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Posted: 9th May 2012 11:42
I hear you, but believe me, I've looked into it. My thoughts are, if it can't even run on Mac with a simple copy and paste media job, then what chance do I have running it on iOS?

I can't think of any reason why it would just absolutely not work on Mac. The app works flawlessly on Windows, and according to the guide, just copy and paste it over pretty much. Rename one file.

There isn't any documentation or anything on this forum talking about any extra steps needed to make it work. I'm not demanding a one-click insta-game. I literally sprited and coded an app and invested a serious chunk of my time just to find out that something is amiss.

Any ideas?

JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th May 2012 14:13
Personally, I would do the following:

* Check that ALL variables are instantiated before use. Default zeroing of memory may be different on different operating systems. Particularly check for strings that have not been assigned a value before using Val() or other calls upon them and double-check that correct integer or float types have been declared. Xcode's back end may be less forgiving than VC++.

* Always assume that it's your fault before blaming the compiler. Try to segment the program and put in debugging statements so that you can identify where problems are happening.

* Make sure you have enough Sleep() commands when you have a lot of intensive code that may stall the system.

* Comment out functions one by one until you identify the problem area. You can replace this with a stub. Ideally you construct your program in the first place with stubs which merely print their function name etc. You can then see program flow.

* Ask one of the T1 experts in here if they would be kind enough to look at your project. This is a very friendly and helpful forum, and we all face problems with cross-platform coding. That's why there are dozens of posts every day.

* Don't leave things until the last minute before shouting "Help!"

-- Jim
baxslash
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Posted: 9th May 2012 14:43
I'd be happy to give you some advice on your T1 code. Just email me on the link below...

Funnell7
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:38
Quote: " have been attempting to write the simplest of apps in Tier 1 AGK. Right now it's only around 1000 lines of code."


Although 1000 lines of code isn't that large for a full app/game, a 1000 lines is quite alot for OS Specific issues... Why not try with the simplest of apps (following JimHawkins advice above) i.e. a 'Hello World' app...

If that doesn't work then it wouldn't take much to work out why...

Also, I think the statement 'AGK on anything besides Windows' maybe a little harsh... I'd say this issue is directed to Mac... There have been many succesfull apps created with iOS, Android, PB etc...
polomint
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:57
Quote: "There have been many succesfull apps created with iOS, Android, PB etc..."


Yep, I knocked up a quick digital clock app in T2 for the Playbook in about an hour and had it submitted 30 minutes later, Took about 16 hours for RIM to accept it,

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 9th May 2012 17:55
Quote: "1000 lines is quite alot for OS Specific issues..."


The Tier1 game I am currently working on is 4394 lines across 14 files (13 included). Even assuming 50% for comments and blank lines, that's still over 2000 lines of code. And I'm having no problem on any platform.

I am currently testing it in Windows, Android and iOS platforms. I use a Mac Mini and Xcode 4.3.2 to do the iOS bits.

It took a while to get my Xcode and Android setups working, but I succeeded.

The Android one needed to be followed pretty much letter for letter (I did change a couple of directories and made sure to modify instructions to take that into account).

I, too, had 'fun' working through the Xcode 3 instructions, but eventually got it to work. Then I rewrote them for the differences in Xcode 4.

Here are the my version of the Xcode 4 instructions (updated for v107):


When v1070 came out, I was ready to update my Mac files and did exactly what I would have done in Windows. I simply copied the directories from the zip file to the right place in my AppGameKit directory.

In windows, it would have simply replaced any existing files, without affecting anything that didn't appear in the copied directories.

On a Mac, it completely replaces the directory, wiping out anything you had added since it was originally created.

My game project directory disappeared completely.

It allowed me to go through the steps for setting up an Xcode 4 project and fine tune my instructions, given the changes in the interpreter.cpp file.

So, if/when you update your Mac AppGameKit setup, copy any of your project directories to somewhere above AGK/IDE and AGK/Projects.

Once you've updated your basic AppGameKit setup, you can copy your projects back. Then do the following (for Tier1 projects):
1. replace the 'UntitledViewController.m' file in your Classes subdirectory with the one from the new interpreter_ios
2. add the line '#define STANDALONE' as the third line in the 'interpreter.h' file

It doesn't appear that you need to do anything for Tier2.

In both tiers, make sure to clean your project and rebuild it.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
Funnell7
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Posted: 9th May 2012 18:03 Edited at: 9th May 2012 18:04
Quote: "The Tier1 game I am currently working on is 4394 lines across 14 files (13 included). Even assuming 50% for comments and blank lines, that's still over 2000 lines of code. And I'm having no problem on any platform."


When I said '1000 lines is quite alot for OS Specific issues' I didn't mean that 1000 lines is alot of code (because it really isn't), what I meant was even with 1000 lines, there is alot of opportunity for something to not quite be right, for which may be causing the issues Inspire is facing... My suggestion was to try with minimal code i.e. Hello World, as that will be alot easier to figure out what the Mac does/doesn't like...

For example if the Hello World project does work, then we can safely assume that the issue is somewhere within the 1000 lines of code...
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 9th May 2012 18:19
Oh. Right. I was just responding to remembering that folks have had difficulties with programs when the code count went up.

For a simple project, just try to build and run the agkinterpreter.xcodeproject in IDE/apps/interpreter_mac or interpreter_ios. It doesn't do much, but it can show whether the build will work and the results will run.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
Inspire
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Posted: 9th May 2012 20:13
Thank you very much for the feedback. I should have another go at this, but honestly, I am pretty angry right now. I went to present my game in front of my entire class (a big lecture hall), playing my app on a Windows machine, and all of a sudden I get the error.

"Failed to load DirectSound buffer at line 678"

I have no idea why this would happen. I was under the impression that AppGameKit didn't require DirectX, according to these forums.

This was my final. I have no idea how this can be so inconsistent. Wouldn't it work on Windows, considering it doesn't require DirectX and I wrote it and tested it on Tier 1 (on Windows, obviously)?

I mean, it's a moot point now. But I would very much like to know what the meaning of this was. I have searched everywhere and haven't found anything. Thank you for putting your feedback, seriously. I hope to get this turned around.

bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 20:16
On Windows AppGameKit uses the system codecs to play music.

Hence the DirectSound requirement.

If you were playing WAV make sure it was 8bit uncompressed.

If you were playing MP3 make sure that the encoder you use to generate the mp3 produces complaint mp3 files.

I had a lot of problems with producing compatible WAVs. In the end I settled for Adobe Audition.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 10th May 2012 01:41 Edited at: 10th May 2012 01:43
Do NOT use 8-bit WAVs. Not all sound subsystems will handle them correctly. WAVs should be 16 or more bits. What format are your sound files?

Were you playing this on a campus machine or on your own laptop? Always do demos on a computer you have tested to death - preferably your own. I can tell you, as a university lecturer, that I have zero faith in any campus computer running on a campus image to work on a whole range of multimedia software.

Windows uses DirectX for a whole host of things, including audio and video playback.

Your problems with the Mac could be a simple as using an unsupported sound file format. For example, for HTML5 it is necessary to have a minimum of two different sound files, because different browsers and platforms only support a limited number. This is not an immediate issue for AppGameKit, but it will be when AppGameKit catches up with Monkey.

Don't you have tutors to advise on this? I would be ashamed if I were your lecturer and I had allowed you to make a presentation without prior testing and analysis. I would have told you to use a laptop, and NEVER use the computer in the lecture theatre. Been there, done it, and died.

This is a very sad story, and we all feel very sorry for you. But the bad things are the things you can learn the most from sometimes.

-- Jim
bjadams
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Posted: 10th May 2012 11:10
cannot play 16 bit wavs on Windows. 8 bit play well on ios and windows
JimHawkins
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Posted: 10th May 2012 12:07
Are you saying that AppGameKit won't, or that Windows won't?

As my company sells language lab software, I have several gigabytes of 16-bit wavs. We record 16-bit wavs. 16-bit is the DEFAULT for Windows.

What rate are your wavs at (11025,22050,16000, etc)? Some playback devices will not play lower bit-rate files.

-- Jim
JimHawkins
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Posted: 10th May 2012 14:03 Edited at: 10th May 2012 14:09
I've modified the PlaySound example to test 16-bit wavs in AppGameKit on Windows. They all work fine, as I would expect.

Any Windows computer that won't play 16-bit wavs is severely damaged!

zip file attached.

-- Jim

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bjadams
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Posted: 10th May 2012 14:59
16bit wavs play fine on windows media player and winamp.

they won't play in agk ios & windows. converting them to 8bit made all work
MarcoBruti
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Posted: 10th May 2012 15:28
Good news: I have got 4 Tier-1 apps on Google Market, so Tier-1 AppGameKit "generally" works well. I leave out Tier-2 programming, because Tier-2 relies on Java, C++, XCode, etc, so it is much more under control of the programmer and AppGameKit is like an external library.
Bad news: I had some problems when compiling on Windows and some problems on Android phones.
- First of all, with an >1000 lines app (net), I had a lot of "compile time errors" without any explanation. As I wrote under other threads, I add randomly dummy lines (as print("")) and the program is compiled correctly
- Second, I installed Nokia Suite, and then MP3 files stop working with coded error. I had to uninstall Nokia suite, and MP3 began working again.
So I think that, at this stage, AppGameKit (at least for Tier-1) has not yet reached the level of robustness needed for a gaming class (where such kind of error cannot be accepted).
So I think that DarkBasicPro, being more mature, is more suitable for didactical purposes, at least for now.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 10th May 2012 16:32
Quote: "they won't play in agk ios & windows. converting them to 8bit made all work"


Play the example I uploaded. No problems. It's simply NOT true.

-- Jim
Inspire
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Posted: 12th May 2012 06:52 Edited at: 12th May 2012 07:44
I have tested my app on two other Windows computers besides my own, and the sound played fine (16-bit). For some reason, the one on campus didn't.

Quote: "I can tell you, as a university lecturer, that I have zero faith in any campus computer running on a campus image to work on a whole range of multimedia software."


I completely agree with this. Unfortunately, I had no other option.
I also didn't think that AppGameKit even had system requirements. Do they post this anywhere?

Quote: "On Windows AppGameKit uses the system codecs to play music.

Hence the DirectSound requirement.
"


Does this mean that DirectX is a system requirement? My understanding is that all Windows installations at least come with a version of DirectX. And wouldn't DirectX allow for more than 16-bit sound?


The problems on Mac were different.
- The random() function did not work properly
- There was no way to resize the window from the default size. The window size was constant, and any aspect ratio or resolution changes occurred within that window size
- The app crashes at the same point, every time, for a reason I have yet to determine.

I will be updating this post with a project file, if anybody would be kind enough to look. I couldn't thank said individual enough.

EDIT: Project attached. I apologize, the source is very messy. At least messier than what I would like.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th May 2012 10:42
DirectX is a fundamental part of Windows, and remains so in Windows 8, underpinning Media Foundation. I suspect a hardware or driver failure on the computer you used.

-- Jim
JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th May 2012 11:17
Have you edited the file since you got your rather public crash? The error at line 678 is a blank line.

When I run it it works fine but when you play a second game after the first level the program exits with "Sprite 1 does not exist at line 540"

I'm sure people with more Tier1 skills than me will be able to analyse it for you!

-- Jim
DMXtra
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Posted: 12th May 2012 11:41
Quote: "
So I think that, at this stage, AppGameKit (at least for Tier-1) has not yet reached the level of robustness needed for a gaming class (where such kind of error cannot be accepted).
"


What version of AppGameKit were you using at the time that you had the errors?

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 12th May 2012 18:40
I posted this thread yesterday: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=196744&b=41

It shows how you can change the size for a Mac Tier1 app.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
DVader
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Posted: 12th May 2012 20:07
Quote: "Failed to load DirectSound buffer at line 678"

I have had similar errors. Normally it is because AppGameKit cannot find the specified file, but doesn't pick it up on the actual load command, just the play command. AppGameKit has some way to go before all these little quirks are fixed. I haven't had it do it from simply running on a different machine though. I think you still need DX for sound within windows apps though, so that may have been it.

I felt the same way regarding cross platform deployment at first. I think the problem is, the advertising blurb makes it sound like it is literally a couple of clicks away. Which is true when broadcasting, but the blurb doesn't specify that. I was a little put off when I saw the actual process to compile them natively, and felt a little cheated. However, on the programming side I loved it. I had knocked up a fairly nifty little 2 way scrolling demo in 2-3 days, which is still in dev now and on the showcase as a wip.

I think AppGameKit can certainly be improved in these areas. It has improved a fair bit since day one already. I have also managed to get android compiled natively. I hope to get other platforms too, but as I don't have any other mobile device or Mac it will have to wait for now.
I certainly don't think AppGameKit is a watered down DB. It has less commands (DB has been around for some time now), and lacks 3D at the moment. But what it can do with 2D I would say is on another level than DB, especially if you actually use the 2D DB commands, rather than faking it with 3D planes.

Impetus73
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Posted: 12th May 2012 23:22
The resulting .APK file, contains 11 files + the media folder with all it's files. I can't understand why TGC can't integrate a function into the IDE that compiles .APK files if you supply all needed info for those 11 files? Please explain why we need a 56 page tutorial to get that .APK file?

----------------
AGK user - novice
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's, just started programming again with AGK.
bjadams
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Posted: 12th May 2012 23:29
The thing with the different platforms is that whoever you are, the first time round is always hard. Try using Windows the first time round as a newbie... it's not so easy!

Once you do it the first time round, then it's very simple indeed.

I think the process is quite straight forward and I got ios, android and blackberry working on T2 by following the guides step by step.
Inspire
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Posted: 14th May 2012 10:10
Quote: "Have you edited the file since you got your rather public crash? The error at line 678 is a blank line."


I have edited it since the error, but not by much. The line in question was the only instance of "stopMusic" in the code. I did not edit anything regarding the bug, just added some comment lines and whatnot.

Quote: "When I run it it works fine but when you play a second game after the first level the program exits with "Sprite 1 does not exist at line 540""


Yeah, I'm aware of this one. Haha. Thanks for pointing it out though!

@Ancient Lady

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to try it out. Hopefully somebody helps me figure out why my app keeps crashing strictly on Mac.

Quote: "I have had similar errors. Normally it is because AppGameKit cannot find the specified file, but doesn't pick it up on the actual load command, just the play command. AppGameKit has some way to go before all these little quirks are fixed. I haven't had it do it from simply running on a different machine though. I think you still need DX for sound within windows apps though, so that may have been it.
"


Can you think of any reason this would occur on some machines and not others?

Either way, I'm devoting my day tomorrow to fixing that last bug on Windows and getting this thing running successfully on Mac. I appreciate all the help from everyone!

Inspire
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Posted: 18th May 2012 06:21 Edited at: 18th May 2012 07:41
EDIT: Go figure, some Windows machines actually can't play sound files that aren't 8 bit. Problem solved.

Does anybody know why this is the case? Why can some Windows computers play 8 bit files and some not?

JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th May 2012 10:31
All Windows sound boards vary in what they can record or play back. And they depend on drivers that may restrict certain types.

They should all play 16-bit 44100 s/s files - they have to because that's the CD format. It's possible to interrogate the sound system to find out the capabilities. 22050 is usually safe.

8-bit sound is pretty-well never used these days. I haven't seen one for about 20 years!

-- Jim
Inspire
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Posted: 18th May 2012 10:42
Is this true for Tier 1, or is this an AppGameKit bug? Or is there maybe something I can do to enable 16-bit sound playback?

One of the computers I tested on that did not work was able to run Doom 3 on max settings, but was not able to play more than 8-bit sounds from AGK. I was getting errors until I converted the sounds from 16 bit to 8 bit.

On the other hand, I have also tested the same exact app on other computers with 16-bit sounds without a single problem.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th May 2012 10:54
It's possible for some installed programs to mess up the audio stages, grab file-types for themselves. Not playing 16-bit audio is an ABNORMAL condition. Throw out iTunes and anything else that messes with audio and then try. Run Malwarebytes. Reinstall the sound drivers for the sound card. Etc.

Get a USB headset and try playing the sounds. This will bypass the computer's sound hardware and drivers, because USB headsets are sound-boards in their own right. Some models of HP Compaq computers have appalling sound systems and a USB headset is a must.

-- Jim
MarcoBruti
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Posted: 18th May 2012 11:13
Hi Inspire,
the beauty of the PC/Wintel world is that it is like mankind: there is no a single PC equal to another one (unless you take the same version of the same model of the same brand of the same time of the same...). But while the differences among people is a strength and not a weakness (unlike "nice" guys as Hitler or Stalin thought, they wanted all people equal in term of blonde hair and blue eyes, or in general conformed to a common model), in the computer world this is a big negative issue.
Moreover now is far more a mess: you have notebook, laptop, ultrabook, desktop, servers, etc etc, each one different.
Steve Jobs, a marketing genius as Bill Gates (sorry, I do not consider a technology genius, but it is not a pity, since marketing is at least important as engineering, if not more), has been right to keep Apple a closed world (but at the end, especially after being dead we are always right), because there is maximum control over hw, so software is tested and certified to work on well-know hw.
Anyway I prefer the open world, so I refuse to buy any Apple gadgets by principle, that I consider beautiful and trendy products but over-priced, over-advertised and at the end, not so diferent from the others.
About your problem, I realized that AppGameKit is not particularly stable on Windows systems, for example I have problems on Windows XP that no-one helped me to solve. Compiler crashed without any explanation and I have to add random dummy lines to make it work. In another post I raised an issue about incompatibility between Nokia PC Suite and AppGameKit executables: MP3 music stops playing and a DirectSound error is raised. I had to uninstall Nokia PC Suite (BTW, Nokia N8 is an excellent smartphone with excellent HD Video and Photocamera and Symbian Belle is very good too) and no-one solved my issue.
So we have got 2 solutions: or to push TGC to improve the Windows support by adding stability to compiler and make apps on Windows to work better, or when using AppGameKit for academical, business or institutional jobs, we have to test the app on the exact machine we'll have to use. Do you agree?
JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th May 2012 12:52
You can't blame AppGameKit for Nokia's apparent breach of elementary inter-program courtesy. Grabbing bits of the audio system in exclusive mode is unforgivable. AppGameKit cannot fix problems caused by badly-programmed third-party software installed on random computers.

QuickTime is also a major source of problems. At least it doesn't blue-screen all the time like it used to!

Our language-lab software is installed on thousands of computers world-wide. On several occasions I have had to contact some quite big software companies and point out that their "product" interfered with perfectly well-behaved standards-compliant software - and all cases, apart from Research Machines, they fixed the problem in their release. I fixed the RM problem by adding a module that killed several RM services at program start!

-- Jim

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