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Geek Culture / Alien or Aliens ?

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RAXMUX Games
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 18:59 Edited at: 9th Jun 2012 19:00
There are two types of people. The ones who prefer Alien and the ones who thinks Aliens is the better movie. Personally I like the original Alien better but what do you think ?

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 19:06
Alien Resurrection all the way...

<ahem> Alien for me, love Ridley Scott's films.

TheComet
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 19:11
Aliens? Can someone clarify a bit, I'm not sure what film that is. I know the Alien trilogy with Rippley and everything, those were great. Then there was a 4th one made which sucked.

TheComet

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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 19:18
Quote: "Aliens? Can someone clarify a bit"


Alien 1 : Alien
Alien 2 : Aliens
Alien 3 : Alien 3
Alien 4 : Alien Resurrection

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 19:31
Difficult question, I do quite like the original and I saw Aliens first. But I think I'll settle for Aliens.

TheComet
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 19:56 Edited at: 9th Jun 2012 20:01
Ah right, well then.



TheComet

Quik
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 19:59
I loved all of them....


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 20:09
Watch them back to back as 1 long film...

Alieniens

greenlig
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 20:28
Alien. So good. Measured, deliberate build-up, then BAM, ALIEN GET YOU. Looks so good too. Cameron did too much...James Cameron-y stuff in Aliens. Good movie, but Alien is better

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Nateholio
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 20:52
Alien 1 : Alien <-- AWESOME
Alien 2 : Aliens <-- awesome
Alien 3 : Alien 3 <-- ok
Alien 4 : Alien Resurrection <-- awesome

Alien vs Predator <-- snore
Alien vs Predator 2 <-- snore

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 21:05
Alien vs Predator 1 & 2.

Afraid they were lost on me, I thought they weren't any good. Predator is good and I agree with The Comet on Predators.

Alien 3 & Ressurection weren't that bad, I still found both to be enjoyable enough, I don't think they lived up to the first 2, but I wouldn't say anything bad about them.

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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 21:10 Edited at: 9th Jun 2012 21:11
The reason I didn't like resurrection was the whole idea of Rippley being cloned. For me it ruined the whole movie. Sure the plot was OK and the characters were well done, and learning a bit more about alien biology was fun too, but really? Clone Rippley and she still has all of her memories? They should have stopped at the third movie. I don't know who it was that thought "Hmm, we need a 4th movie, but our main character is dead... LET'S CLONE HER!! *trollface*"

TheComet

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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 23:05
Prometheus all the way!

...wait.

zeroSlave
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 23:20 Edited at: 9th Jun 2012 23:52
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Prometheus yet! I'm planning on seeing it in the next couple days and am very excited. (Josh! Grrr! That's what happens when I take a break from typing to get my kid ready for the swimming pool. )

To answer the question, I prefer Aliens for the great 80s action and the setting, but Alien for the suspense and atmosphere. Alien 3 was alright, although, I would have preferred if they would have stuck to the original idea of it taking place in a religious convent rather than a prison. I think it would have worked better.

Alien Resurrection... I don't see why they had to make this movie. It looked cool in parts (like the aliens swimming in the water) but, man, the story was just crap. As far as I know, (from tons of reading (I've read all the books by SD Perry and the other authors.) and putting pieces here and there together, it seems like aliens are already part human and part whatever-their-original-form-is(which I hope will be revealed in Prometheus) so why make an ugly stupid "half alien/half human" thing and mess up the franchise!?

The Alien mythos is probably my favorite in the scifi genre, and when growing up, I even made my own pen and paper table top role playing game. Had the rule book and everything typed up and even played a few games with friends.

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rolfy
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 23:53 Edited at: 9th Jun 2012 23:56
Prometheus is not quite like the Alien movies, in fact it could be an entirely different story altogether..
It is a good movie but not enough horror action in it for me.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 00:35
Quote: "They should have stopped at the third movie. I don't know who it was that thought "Hmm, we need a 4th movie, but our main character is dead... LET'S CLONE HER!! *trollface*""


I'm getting they wanted to get more money in from the series. But yes, you make a fair point about the cloning, it is just a convenient plot twist just to allow Ripley to be in number 4. Once you put that aside I think it's possible to enjoy the ride.

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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 01:18
Quote: "Alien vs Predator <-- snore
Alien vs Predator 2 <-- snore"


I enjoyed those too.. probably more than the alien movies


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JLMoondog
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 02:00
Quote: "I enjoyed those too.. probably more than the alien movies"

It's obvious you've never saw Alien in theaters.

AvP- horrible set of movies...

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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 02:24 Edited at: 10th Jun 2012 02:27
If I remember correctly, the first AVP movie ripped a lot of it's ideas from the book AVP: Prey. Different setting, but same idea of a female protagonist that 'joins' the predators. And even the ending sequence with the queen plays out the same. The second movie was just pure Friday the 13th style. I didn't like either one of them. They were junk for movies having to do with Aliens.

I see the mentioning of the first Predator, but I thought I'd mention Predator 2 with Danny Glover and the one and only Gary Busey. I thought it was a pretty decent movie. Plus, there is also an Alien skull in the trophy room of the Predator ship!


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JLMoondog
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 03:28
Quote: " Plus, there is also an Alien skull in the trophy room of the Predator ship!"

I remember seeing that when I first saw the movie and said to myself, "Dang that would be an awesome crossover." ...I was wrong.

greenlig
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 10:04
I really liked Prometheus. There are quite a few problems with it, but that's probably more the burden of expectation than anything. The screenplay lets it down a bit, but boy does it look good. Also, the acting is fantastic, even if the characters are a little flat in places. It's top-notch sci-fi, which seems pretty rare these days. The last good one I saw was Moon, and that was ages ago! Need more of that kind of film!

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Nateholio
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 10:32
Took a look at the Prometheus website...and I must say that I gotta see it! Images from the Alien franchise and the existence of Weyland [Yutani] in the movie make me go "hmmmmm". Big fan of Alien & Aliens.

Quote: "It's top-notch sci-fi"

What else do you expect from Ridley Scott?

I also hear there may be yet another Terminator movie coming out. The last one was, crap, to refrain from cursing here. The first three were great, I wonder what this one will be. You can't have Terminator without Arnold, like you can't have Aliens without Sigourney.

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 10:34
Quote: "It's obvious you've never saw Alien in theaters.

AvP- horrible set of movies...
"


no.. But AvP is more faced paced-action oriented - which i quite njoy. Must say that the second AvP movie was complete crap though...


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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 10:41 Edited at: 10th Jun 2012 10:46
Reminds me, I keep meaning to get around to buying one of these and the patches....



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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 16:31
Quote: "no.. But AvP is more faced paced-action oriented - which i quite njoy. Must say that the second AvP movie was complete crap though..."


I suppose you could say they were different styles. AvP was more about the action, whereas the Alien films were more about the horror (although the 2nd one was certainly more action-based than the original).



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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 16:36
Quote: "I suppose you could say they were different styles. AvP was more about the action, whereas the Alien films were more about the horror (although the 2nd one was certainly more action-based than the original)."


That^ And i certanly enjoy both types


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bruce3371
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Posted: 10th Jun 2012 18:48
Alien, simply because of John Hurt and the Chest Burster scene...

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 03:00
Just came out of the theater seeing Prometheus. I was extremely extremely extremely excited for this movie... However with that said, I legitimately felt stupider than I already am the moment the credits rolled. It wasn't necessarily a 'bad' movie, but it was far too weird. It was visually amazing of course as expected. The plot was great yet still it fell flat in almost every single way. It was slow, disgusting, and the characters lacked a real development. Although Fassbender performed beyond amazing and is one of my favorite characters in any movie. However even with him the movie fell way too short. Basically I found Prometheus to be a beautiful mess. It was great, terrible, disgusting, and weird all in one.

Weird movie. Weird weird weird weird. Just weird.

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RAXMUX Games
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 13:37
Lol, going to see it on tommorow

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maho76
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 14:03 Edited at: 11th Jun 2012 14:07
ALIEN - Best SciFi-Beast-Horror of all times.

ALIENS - Best SciFi-Action-movie of all times.

ALIEN3 - not BEST, but still a great movie with very good actors and a good final for the series.

ALIEN4 - popcorn with some nice scenes, but nothing more. STOP! i am wrong. its with the great michael wincott and ron perlman. cannot be that bad.^^ for a popcorn-movie its "o.k.", but not for the alien-franchise. same for avp1, second is total crap (except the trailer with the bodycount was awesome )

1-3 in one session > best you can get out of beast-scifi, nothing beats hans-rüdi´s weird dreams in combination with ron cobb´s designs.

JLMoondog
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 14:43 Edited at: 11th Jun 2012 15:01
This is how AvP should have been



I do think there was an official comic version with Batman and Aliens/Predator cameos.

Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 15:22 Edited at: 11th Jun 2012 15:26
Aliens. All the way. Which is strange as normally I would prefer Alien. Dunno. Just did it for me at the time is all I can say. It's actually my all time favourite movie tied with... ahem.... Mannequin... I know I know...

Hmm, interesting no-one mentioned Predator 2 (wasn't the catchline something like "He's in town with time to kill" or somesuch? Nice.) Predators was mentioned but that is a quite recent movie that essentially tried to copy a load of scenes from Predator and failed quite badly by using daytime TV acting and rehashed scripts... Predator 2 was the one not too long after the first one with the guy from Lethal Weapon (not the wife hating one). When I first watched it I wanted to burn the VHS tape when comparing to Predator, but it grows on you after the third viewing or so. Plus the other guy from Lethal Weapon is in it (not the wife hating guy again) with his crazy eyes which makes it all the more enjoyable

Also for me I loved the first one, really quite liked the 4th one, and seriously disliked the 3rd one for some reason (even at the cinema too). AvP ones were also the biggest let down ever. I mean the graphic novels were brilliant but they totally messed it up. Yeah one of them had the whole girl joining the Predator thing going on, but it really wasn't the same. Nevermind...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 16:26 Edited at: 11th Jun 2012 16:27
Quote: "This is how AvP should have been"


Yes, that would definitely have made a great movie. Alas, such a master piece will never become a full length film.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 17:13
Aliens was one that stuck with me. Probably a timing thing really, being a teen during that decade. The only one i'm not too keen is the 3rd one. Dunno why.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 17:15 Edited at: 11th Jun 2012 17:18
The 3rd one is supposed to be better in the Extended version. According to movie buffs they made the story make more sense. I have the Blu Ray box set, which has the extended version, but I haven't watched it yet.

RAXMUX Games
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 20:02
A little information about Alien 3 and it's "alternate cut".

Quote: "Production (i.e. shooting) of the film in England began as soon as David Fincher was officially signed on to direct and with no finished script. All that existed at that point was a dozen or so abandoned script ideas and almost two million dollars worth of sets that had been entirely or partially constructed (for a script that was entirely discarded weeks earlier). Fincher was informed that he needed to incorporate as many of the creative ideas the producers wanted as possible and he needed to write scenes around the sets that had already been built in order to justify the cost of their construction. As a result, Fincher was forced to effectively write, shoot, and edit the film, all at the same time. While he was attempting this almost impossible task, the producers were continually requesting that changes be made on a variety of levels on an almost daily basis. This only caused the production to become more complicated and difficult. The film went overbudget rather quickly and although the film was *almost* completed, the studio shut down production and asked for what is called a 'work print' or 'assembly cut'. You might think of this as an audit. They wanted to see what all their money had been spent on before they allowed any more.

David Fincher created a work print in collaboration with editor Terry Rawlings. This was done in order to see which shots still had to be filmed and how the film flowed so far. Fincher, and the rest of the cast and crew, were under the impression that this was to be only the initial cut of what would be the final film and that very few pick-ups and changes were to be made (other than those requested by Fincher himself). The studio, however, eventually rejected this version of the film, and ordered a radical re-edit, requesting that entire plot points (including the beginning and ending of the film) be either altered or scrapped and entirely reshot. Most of these ideas were incorporated into what would become the Theatrical Version. After the hellish production of the film, the news that Fincher's vision of the story would not be the one that would ultimately make it to the screen was enough to make the director walk entirely. The alterations and new scenes were created without Fincher and despite the protests of most of the crew which had worked with him. In fact, a lot of the scenes, including the new ending, were shot in Los Angeles with almost an entirely new crew.

For the extended 2003 Assembly Cut of Alien, editor David Crowther reassembled the earlier work print, and a small crew finished music, sound effects and visual effects in the additional scenes to the best of their abilities on the limited budget (e.g. there was no time or money for additional dialogue recording, etc). Based on what they had to work with, this version was as close as they could get to Fincher's original idea for the film they shot. It should be noted that this was not the film that Fincher had set out to shoot, only the compromised version he would have been *okay* with releasing. Fincher was invited to create his 'director's cut', but refused, citing that a director's cut would mean burning all the original negatives and starting over from scratch. He had very little creative control over the original production and for his true 'director's cut' to ever really be realized, they would have to shoot a whole new movie. According to some sources, the Assembly Cut has his blessing. The Assembly Cut released on dvd in 2003 and met with generally very favourable reviews. This version was further polished in 2010, when the Alien series was released on Blu-ray Disc; the notoriously bad audio quality of some additional scenes (for which only on-set audio with no re-recorded dialogue was available) was finally replaced by a high-quality soundtrack matching the original one, as the actors were brought back in to re-loop their dialogue."


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 22:29
I'm going to watch it now...

Dimis
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 00:22
Wait... what are you guys talking about? Aliens was a movie? Not a documentary about alien planet wild life?

Well it is Aliens for me, anyway. I think Alien was more of a horror movie. Aliens was a combo of horror and action, something that was missing from the first movie. And I guess that considering the age I was when I first saw both movies, I was more impressed with the action stuff.

I never knew that there was an extended Alien 3 movie. That is something I must see.


Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 01:09
Quote: "Wait... what are you guys talking about? Aliens was a movie? Not a documentary about alien planet wild life?"


Nah.. I saw the documentary with David Attenborough...



Nomad Soul
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 01:49 Edited at: 12th Jun 2012 03:26
I went to see Prometheus last Tuesday,

Spoiler Alert!


Movies are like everything else these days, twice as much money for half the value. CGI is a terrible replacement for the days of animatronic monsters and models.

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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 01:54
Quote: "CGI is a terrible replacement for the days of animatronic monsters and models."


I do not agree on any level :I


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greenlig
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 05:48 Edited at: 12th Jun 2012 05:49
@ Nomad - Some of that can be answered!

SPOILERS:


Greenlig

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Matty H
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 16:36
Quote: "CGI is a terrible replacement for the days of animatronic monsters and models."


This has been true lots of times in the past but I think we are at a point now were CGI is almost always better. Although I watched Aliens again last night and was surprised how good the Aliens looked, that said, the setting and vehicles looked terrible

Prometheus is by far the best looking Alien film imo, but Aliens is my favourite.

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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 16:49
I think it's a case of hows it done, it's very difficult for CGI to achieve true photo-realism, but it can look damn good. I think animatronics suffered from how limited it was in terms of animation and I'm sure it was expensive to try and make anything convincing, but you've got the advantage of using real world materials and props to pull off the effects. I think the other problem with CGI is that given how the technology progresses it can become dated quickly, for example, look at how much money was poured into Star Wars: Episode 1 and now it's not so impressive because we've seen better since.

Personally, I would like to see animatronics and would love to have seen the technology improved for more fluid movements, to be more flexible and to be more convincing than they were back in the day. But, I'm sure CGI is cheaper, especially with the extent CGI is used.

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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 18:45
Quote: " it's very difficult for CGI to achieve true photo-realism"


I have seen MANY times where CGI Have looked VERY photo-realistic, and in this time of age, it isnt as hard as people say. we have every kind of tool to make it look photo realistic the only real place whereas it "fails" at is human beings - specifically animations on them.


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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 19:06 Edited at: 12th Jun 2012 19:21
I don't think I've seen a film where the CGI didn't look like CGI to me, yes, it's very close to being truly photo-realistic, but there's always something that gives away the fact it's rendered.

It's odd that you mention animations, because I would have said that's one of the main advantages CGI has over animatronics and with motion capture and even facial capture the animations can be very realistic in movement.

I think to achieve the quality we sometimes see in high quality rendered stills that are unbelievable in how realistic they are, you're looking at larger render times and some level of post-production to account for the flaws photos capture but renders do not. I can imagine doing it to the detail, say, this guy does, would be costly and a long procedure, which is probably why we don't see it in feature length movies.

[edit]
Unless of course it has been so good that I've not noticed it, but with so many high budget films I've found it easy to tell what's CGI and what isn't.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 19:18 Edited at: 12th Jun 2012 19:19
Well the Alien CGI was bad CGI. If it was good CGI it wouldn't get a mention. It's surprising that it is so bad, because the shine, and shape of the Alien is perfect for CGI.

Quik
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 19:39
Quote: "I don't think I've seen a film where the CGI didn't look like CGI to me, yes, it's very close to being truly photo-realistic, but there's always something that gives away the fact it's rendered. "


Other than the fact that we know it is before we start up the movie? I as an artist have an easy time differing CG from "real stuff", however every time I see an old movie I cringe at how extremely bad their stuff were.

2012 was pretty much only good for the whole "town is collapsing and were in a car" scene, the CG in that was amazing..


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Nateholio
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 20:26
CGI vs models/animatronics...I'd prefer the latter but understand why CGI is spammed all over the roll of film, even for simple sets.

I can always tell when CGI is used, not sure how though. I guess it's like when you can spot a CD vs other medium - real life doesn't sound as crisp as a CD.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 21:09
Quote: "Other than the fact that we know it is before we start up the movie? I as an artist have an easy time differing CG from "real stuff", however every time I see an old movie I cringe at how extremely bad their stuff were."


We know it is CGI, but I can see signs of it being CGI, whilst they're very good and do help create a realistic feel, but it still feels like CGI. One of the issues with even good quality photo-realistic rendering (and I think it might be what Nate is touching on) and that's the imperfections that come with it. You can correct it with post-processing, which is what the guy I linked does. Scroll down to some of his baby renders, they look fantastic, but I don't see hollywood offering that level of detail.

In the link I posted there is a small CGI animation, which is done to a very convincing detail. But to a detail we don't see in movies. Here's a render of a single frame, it is fantastic, at first watching the clip I thought, the cg effect is where the ground opens up, but nope the whole scene is CGI. Looking at this shot, I can still tell that the building is CGI, the rest, however, is very difficult. Whilst this level of photo-realism is possible, but I'd argue that we don't see it in Hollywood movies. I'm gonna say post processing has something to do with it and probably render times too.

You mentioned 2012, although the CGI was very impressive, it still looked like CGI to me.

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