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Geek Culture / Ouya: A game-changer or a bad investment?

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 17:37
I re-adjusted my pledge and chose no reward. I decided that I'd like to see this thing hit the market (I know it will, but I want to see it for myself), and in the meantime I'll think up some games for it, but first things first, I have to learn to develop for android.

Even if this thing sort of flops, it's still remarkable how fast they raised the money for it and how far they're able to go with it. They're talking about adding an ethernet port and doing hardware upgrades already, although they still want to use the Tegra 3 because upping that would increase the cost of the console and they don't want to do that. But even so, the Tegra 3 is still pretty impressive.

I'm actually planning on making a few N64-style games for it.

-Yodaman Jer

Not contributing much of anything useful to the forums since September of 2007.
Quik
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 18:09
Quote: "We are looking at a console that will be hackable as soon as it's released, it won't use optical media for protection, in fact it'll be an open playing field."



As long as consoles don't start using internet DRM I'm fine.



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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 18:54
With game consoles it can be impossible to predict if it will succeed or not, beforehand. Look at the PS3. People were buying and reselling them immediately, and then it flopped so much quicker than people expected. Who could have predicted the PS3 would come in last place this generation? And look at the Dreamcast... at the time before release it was supposed to be the next big thing. Looking in hindsight it might be easy to see why Dreamcast died so fast (piracy was easy), but at the time, the amount of coverage the system was getting was insane.

With this OUYA or whatever it's called, I don't believe any developers will develop games ONLY for this system. Since it's based on Android, it will see a lot of titles that are on mobile and tablet devices, ported over. I don't believe it will cost a lot of money to develop for this system, as the majority of the money would have already been spent on making the game for all the other Android systems.


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 19:07 Edited at: 17th Jul 2012 19:08
Quote: "With this OUYA or whatever it's called, I don't believe any developers will develop games ONLY for this system. Since it's based on Android, it will see a lot of titles that are on mobile and tablet devices, ported over. I don't believe it will cost a lot of money to develop for this system, as the majority of the money would have already been spent on making the game for all the other Android systems."


Yeah. Anything that runs on Android phones and tablets would be extremely easy to port over as long as they use similar controls. No development fees and full control over price, updates etc is great for indies.

MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 19:08
Very well said Jeku¡

MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 19:10
Do you reckon this will be using the Android Play Store¿ or their own store¿

Dar13
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 20:13
From this slashdot article.
Quote: "Ouya CEO Julia Uhrman has responded to the skepticism, saying, 'Ouya will be just as secure as any other Android-powered device. In fact, because all the paid content will require authentication with Ouya's servers, we have an added layer of security. Hacking and openness are about getting what you want to do with the hardware. Rooting the device won't give you any more access to the software.'""


So it's not quite as easy to hack the software, but now we have to deal with Always-On DRM. I'm not sure which is better, honestly.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 20:21
Quote: "Do you reckon this will be using the Android Play Store¿ or their own store¿"


It will be their own store, like Kindle Fire. 2 reasons: They only want games/apps made for Ouya on the store. And perhaps more importantly, they want 30% of your sales to earn money.

MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 20:30
Quote: "It will be their own store, like Kindle Fire. 2 reasons: They only want games/apps made for Ouya on the store. And perhaps more importantly, they want 30% of your sales to earn money."


Origin 2.0 *sigh*

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 21:18 Edited at: 17th Jul 2012 21:19
https://twitter.com/okonomiyonda/status/223934504920821760
Quote: "Ouya is a new kind of console in the same way a giraffe is a new kind of rocket: that is to say not at all http://penny-arcade.com/report/editori …"

Quote: "Oh and good luck with your crappy OS, fat bloated GPU driver, and *giggles* NINE Gflops of power. Although phone games don't need 1080p"

(Also from Jaymin Kessler, a PS3 developer.)

Quote: "“I’m skeptical of why people are so excited about OUYA,” Antichamber developer Alexander Bruce said. “If you want to develop a game for consoles with less gatekeeping than PSN or XBLA, I’m pretty sure that’s what XBLIG was supposed to be for, but people aren’t exactly going crazy over selling their games there. If openness is your main concern, I’m not sure what is stopping you from targeting the PC and selling games directly through your website. I personally believe that until you’ve got a high quality game on your hands, where you sell it or which gatekeepers you have to get past aren’t your biggest problems.”"


The Trouble with Ouya
Quote: "The whole video is a cleverly edited confection, with more time spent watching a saw cutting a piece of wood with a controller drawn on top (seriously) than anything resembling a functional games console. The most impressive bit of mock-uppery Ouya has is a sexy-looking controller facade, though it also has an interface featuring game logos like Madden. Do you think Madden is going to appear on Ouya? Of course it isn't, and we'll come back to why - but it's interesting that the pitch is all about small developers and AAA console titles. Because the two don't have any crossover whatsoever."


I'll reiterate my issue with Ouya in an incredibly simplistic fashion. Console devs don't care. The majority of indie devs don't produce quality games. Ouya is no better than what we're likely to see in Wal-Mart for $35 or $50 as one of those "TV Game" things. (You know, the ones with the A/V cords built-in to the controller, which is also the actual console.) You already have products like Xperia Play that's targeted for gaming. You can get those for about the same price as Ouya on ebay, sometimes less. (Granted, those are used products with bad screens, but they're still usable and already exist.)

Maybe with their $5 million they might improve their console. A Tegra 3 can't cost so much more than a Tegra 2 that they can't use the extra $4 million to bite the "profit loss" on the consoles.

However, Ouya's top people will answer your questions live, later this week.

Cheers,
Aaron

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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 21:34
Quote: "So it's not quite as easy to hack the software, but now we have to deal with Always-On DRM. I'm not sure which is better, honestly."

And all of a sudden all of my enthusiasm is crushed into pieces.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 21:57
Quote: "Origin 2.0 *sigh*"


What does that have to do with OUYA?


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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 00:06
Not sure either - I don't have anything against origin tbh - I just don't like the concept of a specific gaming platform / company



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Dot Merix
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 00:20 Edited at: 18th Jul 2012 00:21
I think it's certainly an interesting idea.. We'll see how well implemented when it comes out.
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 03:01
well, my point was, also like steam used to be, picky decisions, not to say other stores are not the same... but the Android store lets you publish no matter what you are selling... just pointing out a stringent store where we may have barriers... or just stuff they like... meh ignore it... was tired at the time... and wrote first thing that came to mind lol

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 08:53
This console seems to remind me of my Basic Binary Box. Anyone else see this?
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 09:01
Quote: "Basic Binary Box"

And they chose three words instead of just two to name it? And no, I haven't heard of it before now.

Cheers,
Aaron

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 09:12
Actually, the Basic Binary Box or B3 is the name for a concept of a console I plan to develop and make. You can see my thread for it.
DevilLiger
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 10:51
@ Dark basic dude79 are you still even working on it. btw The ouya was something what I've imagined that can be possible one day, but now it just might be.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:14 Edited at: 18th Jul 2012 11:27
Ah, in that case I honestly believe just Binary Box would be a better name. Anyway, good luck with your project. I've non-seriously been thinking about processor designs a lot lately. I really like the CELL B.E. and its SPUs. Just a random thought.

EDIT: Also, why not just use circuit emulators for B3? I noticed you did a lot of paper drawings in the thread. (Though, in all honesty, I haven't really read every single post of that thread. So, maybe you are and I just didn't see it.)

Cheers,
Aaron

MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:20
Frankly speaking... All this small budget tech talk has had me thinking... How hard can it really be to get into electronics... I got a lot of old bits that I would love to fiddle with...

DBD79 how is the project coming along?

I really want to get into electronics but I think I will leave it for a time when I have free time and hoardes of cash spare...

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:36
Ah yes! To those of you wondering... I planned to do a lot of work on it this summer but I realized for the first time that although in theory I could do it now, I'm not necessarily ready for it, so for now, I'm taking a break.

Quote: "Binary Box would be a better name"
I'm thinking that too! Well, for now I'm think that Basic Binary Box is just the development name... if I ever release it, I'll have another, better sounding name for it.

Quote: "Also, why not just use circuit emulators for B3? I noticed you did a lot of paper drawings in the thread."
Haha I do nowadays! That was back then before I had any software for that.

Quote: "How hard can it really be to get into electronics"
Tis very easy! Parts are very cheap, and breadboards to prototype on are also dirt cheap. With a few common components (transistors, resistors, capacitors, wires, etc) together worth a few bucks and then a breadboard, you can make lots of cool stuff, then take it apart and make something else. Getting PCBs manufactured on low quantities (eg 1) will be a tad expensive, but still somewhat cheap. Those are more permanent but much nicer.
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:41
Thanks... Can you PM me DBD please

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:49
PM? Like email?
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:51
For some reason I suddenly got that QUEEN song in my head... Bohemian rhapsody...

Yeah PM me enail

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 11:52
Done.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 12:04
Have you gotten the message?
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 12:08 Edited at: 18th Jul 2012 12:11
Yes so sorry for a late reply here not got much data plan on my phone it got used up on day one... Lol...

EDIT

oh I just left the house to go to my shop in the city centre...

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 12:52
Nah that's fine!
Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 16:14 Edited at: 18th Jul 2012 16:18
If I may be so bold, I want to point out a general misconception of Ouya on this thread. It's not designed to compete with XBox or PS; there will be no AAA titles, no big developers, it's a low-budget system that will have low-budget games. They are trying to promote the idea that low-budget doesn't mean low-quality. Yes we have mobile phones and PCs (and to an extent, consoles) that indies can develop for already but these are expensive pieces of hardware and are not suited to all genres of games. If we have a dedicated platform for indie games then we will see a lot more variety in the types of games being produced, and for a group who are already the most innovative in the industry this idea excites me.

Will it be popular in the mass market? No. Sony and Microsoft aren't looking over their shoulders. Ouya may be able to achieve decent sales due to an increasing trend of interest surrounding indies games, and I suppose it also has some niche appeal as being "alternative". But the main selling point is that it's cheap! I just hope they get some good games on it for launch and there actually is a launch.

Shh... you're pretty.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 17:41
I pretty much agree with your assessment OBese. This kind of thing would pretty much be a part of a niche market. The exciting thing is Indie games are popular to make a certain amount of money. The fact the console is pretty cheap hopefully means it's within a price range the indie market would pay money for. I play indie games and I'd probably buy it to play them, assuming they had good games. There's some great titles I've got from Steam and it'd be nice to see similar content on a console and whilst I can get them on XBox Live, but I see XBLA suffering in the few ways. 1) MS seem to be less and less interested in XNA. 2) Developers are limited to the XNA platform. 3) Developers have to pay a yearly fee to be a member of the XNA Club. 4) XBL Indie games require an internet connection to play (I can't play any of my indie titles unless I plug in my ethernet cable).

Okay #4 is just an inconvenience, but with 1, 2 & 3 I think we're missing out on some good projects. Android has a variety of tools you can use to develop for it. AppGameKit and Unity3D already has Android development and they seem to attract plenty of projects. Particularly the latter. UDK is on iOS, I don't know if there's an Android version, but if there is (or is in development) then that's a bonus for all those people using UDK. For example, the developers of Dungeon Defenders. So I think if it's more accessible to developers then it may have a positive result for the gamers, but we shall see. I don't expect to see Assassin's Creed on it, but I am hoping it does result in some cool games to play to make the $100 worth my money.

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jul 2012 23:10
Hey guys, let's be courteous and not double post. Thanks.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Jul 2012 01:30
Was that me? I'm sorry.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 05:23
So, with todays OnLive announcement, I suppose OUYA is officially dead?

Indies can't compete with AAA games, having to support Android is a disaster, the OUYA userbase is smaller than the iPad with Apple TV demographic and the lovely people behind Steam have Greenlight and are slowly starting to bring information about their TV strategy to developers?

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
heyufool1
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 05:31
Quote: "So, with todays OnLive announcement, I suppose OUYA is officially dead?"

What announcement? The only thing I found was that OnLive will be available on OUYA at launch, certainly that's a plus rather than a negative?

- Demo!
tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 05:35
Besides that it goes straight in against 'completely open', 'indie-centric', 'no licensing' and all that? Now the indie titles have to compete with the games that got OnLive licensing and can therefore offer superior graphics and technicalities, unlimited by the relatively weak hardware.

The way I see it, OUYA just divided itself into Xbox 360 and the underpowered, undergoverned XBLIG, without there being a XBLA for indies at all.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
heyufool1
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 05:49 Edited at: 28th Jul 2012 05:51
Quote: "Besides that it goes straight in against 'completely open', 'indie-centric', 'no licensing' and all that? Now the indie titles have to compete with the games that got OnLive licensing and can therefore offer superior graphics and technicalities, unlimited by the relatively weak hardware."

True, but I don't think it will hurt it too much. I think that as long as you have to launch the OnLive app to see its marketplace, then there is enough of a separation of the indie and AAA games. Now, if the OnLive games were mixed in with all of the indie games then there could be some problems. However, this partnership makes me wonder what will happen with the OnLive console, which is also $99. Maybe OUYA's OnLive will be limited, or maybe OnLive will discontinue its console...

I haven't read too far into the OUYA developers' philosophies and such, but from what I see they are trying to make a console that makes indie games readily available to play and develop. Not necessarily making it indie only or designed to compete with AAA games.

- Demo!
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 06:02 Edited at: 28th Jul 2012 06:03
There's no reason to develop for something that has 50.000 users, that offers higher quality and higher fidelity games through a system you can't use as an indie developer. Before the OnLive announcement, OUYA was doomed to fail, but interesting to develop for.

At this point, I know of exactly one actually confirmed indie game for OUYA, which is Canabalt. Not Minecraft (contrary to what some people seem to believe) or any other title that I'm aware of. Maybe some games that are already on Android, maybe some indies that have some money to spare. But I was planning on potentially adding some of our games to the list, but after this announcement, I'm no longer willing to gamble the money, time and resources solely hoping people won't click on the OnLive app icon for the 'superior' games that can be streamed rather than played natively through OUYA.

I'm an indie, I don't have endless amounts of cashmoney. I'd rather spend the time and money I would've spent on OUYA on making new, interesting things that everyone'll be able to play through the Steam TV-thing or iPad + Apple TV.

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 07:27 Edited at: 28th Jul 2012 07:32
people aren't going to buy Ouya for OnLive. they are buying it for exactly what Ouya is meant for. to say OnLive will ruin Ouya is foolish to me. people aren't buying Ouya for AAA gaming... having the option for AAA gaming is just a bonus and if anything is going to greatly help Ouya as a console in general.

saying Ouya will fail because of OnLive is no different than how Indie gaming as a whole is to begin with. This is like saying why play indie games when you can play AAA games... it's no different than when I play an Indie game on my computer. just because i have the option to buy AAA games, doesn't mean I won't play indie games... the price difference between AAA and Indie gaming alone is enough to know that OnLive won't negatively affect it like you think.

I>Every single one of you

Have a nice day
Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 08:07
Quote: "So, with todays OnLive announcement, I suppose OUYA is officially dead?"


There are indie games on OnLive as well, right? By artificially limiting the games (i.e. not accepting AAA titles) would only hurt the system. We all know the big companies like Activision and EA develop Android titles, which mean they'll be easily ported to OUYA, and OUYA would not reject them.

Also, OnLive isn't available in many countries including Canada. There's a bigger world out there than USA!

- Jake


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 12:29
Saying that, the PC has OnLive and Steam; Indie games seem to be doing all right. Also mobile devices have a mix of indie title and non-indie titles. I don't think OnLive will suddenly kill the system. I am sure you'll end up porting Super Crate Box over to it one day.

TBH I think there's a lot of folk who enjoy playing indie games regardless. So I'm not sure if this is a move that'll harm indie games, I personally don't think it will, I don't think OnLive has enough of a following to do that. As Jeku says OnLive isn't available everywhere, plus you actually have to a decent internet connection, which is why I don't use it.

tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 16:18
Indie Games on OnLive need to be licensed by OnLive, and those games are the only games that will be able to use better hardware than the native games. I'm not saying AAA is a bad addition, I'm saying thay OnLive on a subpar hardware platform makes for unfair competition. I'm totally OK with competing with other games that have to work with the same limitations on an open platform.

Where first, I was competing with peers, now I'm competing with both my peers, which means a race to the bottom in terms of price and a whole load of games that I cannot technically, graphically or processor-wise compete with that only require a subscription.

The amount of available games at launch increased with the whole OnLive library, and if you check the OUYA game request poll, AAA games are 50% of the interest.

I don't know, but it's my money & time on the line and I don't think I'll gamble it on this anymore.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
Jeku
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 03:11
Quote: "I'm saying thay OnLive on a subpar hardware platform makes for unfair competition"


Unfair? It's capitalism and choices. You said so yourself that AAA are 50% of the interest of the OUYA customer base, so surely OUYA should give them what they want. I won't be using OnLive (I can't, and I have a powerful PC rig), but it would be sad to see OUYA go the way of every other failed Linux game console out there. It needs something to glue it to popular mainstream, so it can make money and make better product. AAA games are that glue.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 31st Jul 2012 07:45 Edited at: 31st Jul 2012 07:46
For your reading pleasure, Jeku, please replace 'unfair' with 'incorrectly marketed as open, license-free and equal-chance' and fix the grammar errors that might result from that.

You're totally and completely missing the point. From a consumer perspective, this is great, but from a developers perspective its horrible for all the points above.

Popular mainstream? You're talking about a console that you need to Kickstart to get. There's no popular mainstream going to happen - even if they triple sales before the end of this, that's still just 150K units.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2012 11:57
Quote: "You're totally and completely missing the point. From a consumer perspective, this is great, but from a developers perspective its horrible for all the points above. "

No it's not. That's just completely wrong.
This console is doomed to fail if it was supposed to rely on nothing but indie gaming, adding AAA games opens the market to many more customers.

I>Every single one of you

Have a nice day
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 31st Jul 2012 13:27
Like indie developers the Ouya developers are going to need the funds and a means to stay afloat. If granting AAA titles to make it worth more to the consumer then it should in theory help the console in terms of market. I don't think it'd survive on just the indie market alone. It offers an easy means of indies getting their games to a console at least and it has a lot of interest from people who enjoy indie games.

I'm not sure exactly how they're hurting indie games, its giving it another platform and opens it up to console gamers without the developer having to use XNA and pay a subscription. It could well survive with a nice balance of AAA titles and Indie titles, because when you think about it, Steam has a broad selection of both. I don't know how much you're profiting from Steam, Rami, but I know £4 of that Serious Sam: The Random Encounter came from me. Interestingly, most of the games I own on Steam are Indie titles and the games I tend to introduce to friends or even play online with friends are indie titles. They're cheap, they're great fun and are often quite different to your typical AAA title. They can also be quirky. Oh and because they're cheap and often multiplatform, it is possible I'd even buy them twice to just play on different systems.

For me, as a consumer, I think indie games have a charm of their own and that's what makes me want to buy them and I am not bought off by AAA with bigger budgets and better technologies. I enjoy both, so naturally I'll play both. Yes, AAA titles have the bigger market, but I don't think that's gonna change. Something like the Ouya, who knows it might help the market, it might bridge the gap for console gamers better than XBox Live Arcade did.

I would guess that the indie market (maybe you can confirm this) is made up of mostly the mobile platform and the Steam marketplace?

Is it worth your money in investing in as Vlambeer? Well, I'm not marketing expert and obviously there are risks and that would be up to you as a company to decide if it's worth it or not. I would guess that from reading your posts it's the latter. I think the scepticism is perfectly fair, because you don't want to just jump onto a band wagon and then find yourself making a loss. At the end of the day you've got to make money, so you spend your budget wisely. But as a hobbyist, I don't think there's a risk in me being excited about it, because if it's successful, I suspect there will be Ouya support in Unity3D (or even AGK), as it already supports Android and it wouldn't take much for me to get my current project onto the Ouya. But like you were back when you were a little baby Dark Basic user perusing the forums, there's nothing to lose.

the_winch
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Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 31st Jul 2012 19:53 Edited at: 31st Jul 2012 19:53
If they can manufacture 4k Raspberry Pi a day which is ~100,000 a month why do you need the mainstream?

There are a lot of people about so even niche products can sell well.

If you destroy the reason the niche market is interested in your product by trying to appease the mainstream you end up with a product nobody wants. The Ouya is in a tough enough market as it is. Can it really afford to risk alienating the niche that is actually interested in it attempting to capture a mainstream audience that doesn't exist.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Nickydude
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Location: Look outside...
Posted: 31st Jul 2012 22:37
Square Enix backs Kickstarter-funded console Ouya

I reject your reality and substitute my own...
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 01:05
I'm getting excited for this console.

I love that Square Enix has added their support to Ouya, and I changed my pledge up to their "last week only" reward of a brushed brown/black console. It'll be sweet when I get it next March (and yes, Ouya have said they're doing their best to give all of the backers their reward by next March).

Ouya shall be most epic.

-Yodaman Jer

Not contributing much of anything useful to the forums since September of 2007.

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