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AppGameKit Classic Chat / 3D Exporters for AGK 3D file format

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bjadams
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Posted: 19th Jul 2012 23:15
Quote: "Unity cost about 4,500 dollars for ios, and android plugins. "


Unity was available for free earlier this year
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 00:14
Quote: "Unity was available for free earlier this year "


There is a free version and a pro version and then additional versions for different platforms. Pro is $1500 and then another $1500 for each of the other platforms: iOS, Android and Flash. The free version have these platforms for $400 each.

Dar13
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 01:03
Quote: "if you have small fbx files it be fine, this is why you probly have to use obj with fbx too keep it simple. But if you write every thing in fbx then you probably crash the app. It is like loading too many sprites. The only problems I see is this format is not like db pro. It looks like they intend to make a .x to fbx convertor as well. This discussion is going in circles."

FBX isn't meant to be loaded into a realtime engine like AppGameKit or DBPro. It's meant to be an intermediary format that can contain more information than most applications need. FBX is too heavy a format to be used like .X or OBJ.

Airslide
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 01:50 Edited at: 20th Jul 2012 01:59
I think XNA sets a good example - the content pipeline allows you to import .X or .FBX and it is turned into an engine-ready format at build time.

Interestingly, XNA actually does not define this format except for a placeholder version that advanced users are expected to replace, so that game-specific attributes (like many of the ones discussed here) can be added to the format (bounding boxes, physics/lighting/shader/animation data etc).

I think that the argument against AGK's proprietary format is moot, the simple fact is that it is needed, as alternatives either do not encompass everything or are too inefficient. However, an easy-to-use pipeline to convert common formats should eliminate virtually all of the worry. This would work best if the process was performed during the build phase and could be transparent to the user (users add their content to the project like any other file, and it is "built" and placed in the build directory).

This would also benefit a textual format, as the input could be the flexible text format and the build could produce the specific binary version in use by the engine. In fact, that is one of the primary goals XNA sought to achieve with the content pipeline - allowing users to make use of arbitrary file formats, particularly formats that require lots of up-front processing, but alleviate the runtime burden of that processing by doing it at build time.

I haven't really used Unity, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does something similar behind the scenes.
3d point in space
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 07:25 Edited at: 20th Jul 2012 07:47
What I mean by small is just have 1 to 5 charactors have the ability to do basic movements nothing crazy. I know ago was not suppose to do fbx file format but that is where partioning comes in take what you need from the file and throw the garbage away. I would also provide guild lines for the User when using fbx format. Make is so that they can only do the basic animations. If you look at most games they have only one charactor that is animated and the rest is static mesh. The charactor they do have has only a couple of animations it can preform. Look at temple run it only has the run jump and duck animation.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 10:48
Quote: "This would work best if the process was performed during the build phase and could be transparent to the user (users add their content to the project like any other file, and it is "built" and placed in the build directory)."


Some kind of control over this is needed. Compilation (T1) takes longer and longer the more code you have. I don't want AppGameKit to convert the 3D files every time.

MrValentine
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 14:21
Is compilation really slow for you guys?

I admit I do not have a lot of code yet but non of my compilation so far gas ever taken more then a few seconds... Even with multiple source files... Thats DBP though and any of the AppGameKit samples take a second or two if not less...

(SSDs ftw)

Van B
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 14:35
I might depend on the device your testing on, like some devices will transfer files slower than others, but compiling for PC is probably not a big concern. Transferring media can be slow, even when I use Xcode and an iPad plugged in directly, it still takes a little while to compile. All we can really do is hope that at some point TGC are able to optimise the compilation process, like only packaging the media if something changes - I imagine they have bigger fish to fry just now.
I would really like to see options for included media, like having 2 complete sets of media, 1 for HD, 1 for SD, then to improve compile and broadcast times, we could use a lower resolution media set, then decide which set to include depending on the destination.

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Almus
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 15:17
i think COLLADA (.dae) is very good, 3dsmax, maya, blender, cinema4d, etc suport this. If TGC are going to use a proprietary format, please create an exporter for blender, or someone can make?
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 15:48
I have 3000 lines of code in 12 files. Probably something like 4000 lines before I'm done. On my old netbook, compiling alone takes 8+ seconds. On my brand new laptop I don't have that big of a problem though. But I do wish AppGameKit would only have to recompile changed sourcefiles. I think Blitz Basic did that.

I like Van's idea of having multiple sets of media folders. There's also no reason to upload the media to the player every time. Well, I test mainly on my laptop right now, since that's so much faster.

Dar13
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 15:57
Quote: "I don't want AppGameKit to convert the 3D files every time."

I would assume it would look for previously converted files and skip those if it was part of the compiling process.

Quote: "On my old netbook, compiling alone takes 8+ seconds."

8 seconds is an amazing compilation time. I'm really not sure what you're complaining about.

Mobiius
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 19:21
8 seconds is nothing. Commercial games take hours, if not days to compile! lol

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 19:23
Quote: "8 seconds is an amazing compilation time. I'm really not sure what you're complaining about."


Take a watch and stare at it for 8 seconds. It's quite a long time. After compilation it takes another 4 sec to get the game running. On my laptop it takes 2 sec to compile and another 2 sec to run. I compile often to make finding bugs easier.

The Zoq2
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 19:49
Quote: "8 seconds is nothing. Commercial games take hours, if not days to compile! lol"


I doubt that, bugtracking would be inpossible
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 20:17
Quote: "I doubt that, bugtracking would be inpossible"

It's true though. My game can take up to over a minute to compile and I'm only at ~17,000 lines(most of that is XML interface code). Most triple-A titles clock in at well over 100,000 lines.

Quote: "Take a watch and stare at it for 8 seconds. It's quite a long time."

Not really. Perhaps if you're having to recompile over and over again.

baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 20:35
Quote: "8 seconds is nothing. Commercial games take hours, if not days to compile! lol"

I don't know about games but the CAD software I was developing until I started working for TGC a few weeks ago took around 4 to 6 hours I think... There were elements of it in various different languages though including fortran. Days sounds excessive though


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 21:15
You can't really compare that to one person working at home on one computer. You also need to work differently.

baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 21:42
Quote: "You can't really compare that to one person working at home on one computer. You also need to work differently."

I agree. Even my largest AppGameKit projects only take 10 or 15 seconds at the most to compile though so far... It seems a lot when you are trying multiple small tests to debug some annoying problem though doesn't it?


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Dar13
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 22:11
Quote: "Days sounds excessive though"

I read somewhere that one of the Assassin's Creed or Uncharted(I can't find where I found that gem of knowledge) games took a day or more to fully compile. I know for a fact that Ogre3D takes almost 6 hours to compile from source.

The Zoq2
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Posted: 20th Jul 2012 23:31
Wow, I had no idea about that. But im guessing that you only compile parts of the code when compiling takes 4-6 hours

As for AppGameKit, my current project is 2000 lines and compiles and runs in 2 secods
bjadams
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 00:16
It's not just compiling of the code, you have to take into consideration format conversion of 3d data, graphic files and audio files, and most games pack their data into 1 big data file...
Dar13
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 00:17
Quote: "Wow, I had no idea about that. But im guessing that you only compile parts of the code when compiling takes 4-6 hours"

Of course, I only compile Ogre3D every like 6 months or so when there's a new version. Normal compiles take anywhere from 10-15 seconds to a full minute.

Scary Little Rabbit
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 09:16
Paul Johnston, what for is important to specify next parameters:
Quote: " RotationQuat { ,,, }
VertexCount { }
AttribCount { }"

for the last two, may be better to calculate their values automatically.

why is important to specify this:
Quote: " Type { }
Components { }"

engine importer knows what kind of data is parsing, is not?

also:
Quote: " , in an end of lines"

you are using a breaks of line anyway - is this not enough?

error #0101:
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Dar13
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 17:16
Quote: "RotationQuat { ,,, }"

This defines a rotation quaternion, a mathematical representation of rotation that is better suited for realtime 3D graphics.

Quote: "VertexCount { }
AttribCount { }"

This tells the importer how many vertices there are in the file, and how many vertex attributes(position,normal,uv coordinates) there are per vertex.

Quote: "Type { }
Components { }"

No, the importer doesn't have a specific schema for importing models and this approach allows for a more flexible model format.

Quote: "you are using a breaks of line anyway - is this not enough?"

The commas seem to be there because it's actually a list.
Here's the original data with formatting:
0,0,-1,
0,0,-1,
0,0,-1,
0,0,-1

Now look at it this way:
0,0,-1,0,0,-1,0,0,-1,0,0,-1

All they've done is make it more human-readable while still keeping the characteristics of a list.

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 14:49
Dar13 hit the nail on the head on all accounts. Although I have decided to remove AttribCount since there are only a handful of attributes. The VertexCount value though makes it much easier for the importer to create arrays of the exact size needed, and since each vertex attribute must contain exactly the right number of values it also helps in validity checking.
Airslide
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Posted: 24th Jul 2012 00:37
Quote: "Some kind of control over this is needed. Compilation (T1) takes longer and longer the more code you have. I don't want AppGameKit to convert the 3D files every time."


It should only need to occur if the source file is newer than the built version, so while a clean build could potentially take some time, it should only be done incrementally after that. This sort of partial-building is done in virtually all modern languages.

Ideally AppGameKit sources would be compiled this way as well but I don't know if their compiler is built to support it.
anwserman
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Posted: 24th Jul 2012 02:03
Quote: ""Some kind of control over this is needed. Compilation (T1) takes longer and longer the more code you have. I don't want AppGameKit to convert the 3D files every time.""


Optimization could be done, yes. But your main argument is just as effective as screaming "I WANT TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL OVER 1000 MILES IN MY CAR OVER THE EXACT SAME TIME IT TAKES ME TO TRAVEL ONE!"

It's a fact of life - the more there is to something, the longer it takes to finish. This includes compiling code, to chemical reactions, traveling, etc. Now we can certainly optimize it - to reduce the amount of unnecessary updating and compiling - but in the end, bigger projects take longer to compile than smaller ones no matter how efficient you make the build process.

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baxslash
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 13:15
I'm using an updated version of the compiler for v108 (which is still being improved) and it's reduced compile time massively, I'd guess to about a third of what it was.

I wouldn't worry too much about compile times if I were you I was fairly happy before, I'm told it's likely to be even faster soon... Mr.Bamber knows his onions that's for sure


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Hodgey
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 14:00
Just out of curiosity, has anyone risen to the occasion of writing the converter/exporter?

baxslash
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 14:02
I think TGC are deciding on a format first but I'm unsure if anyone has officially put themselves forward to have a go...?


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3d point in space
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 20:47 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2012 21:08
My first thought was to make an object exporter through xml using a similar method as my 2d editor does, Baxslash gave me the idea when he made his 2d exporter. This would make it easy to make animations and obj files rotate. I am trying to make a 3d xml based object exporter that you can animated objects also, but I lack the math to make such a program possible. It will work by frames in xml code like my very first post demonstrated. This would be a very fast way of rotating and displaying obj files. I am currently using .x files for this method, and I need more help with the math part of the program. Another problem I see is that users would have to have a .x to .obj convertor.

This is actually the first xml code snippet I provided that would accomplish the same thing as the 2d editor.


Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
Dar13
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 21:15
Quote: "Just out of curiosity, has anyone risen to the occasion of writing the converter/exporter?"

As far as I know, there still hasn't been a definitive file format that's been decided on. Otherwise I would have a go at it(probably in python since I really need to try that language out).

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 15th Aug 2012 16:13 Edited at: 15th Aug 2012 16:14
For non-animated objects with textures the final format will be

Currently there must be only one root node, and it must be named "Object".
The "Normalize" node should always be "no", and "Type" should always be "Float" except for color values in the range 0-255, in which case Normalize should be "yes" and "Type" should be "uByte". This normalizes them into floats in the range 0.0-1.0 when used in the shader.
"RightHand" should be 1 if the model is defined in right hand coordinates or 0 if it uses left hand coordinates. (AGK uses left hand internally and will attempt to convert right handed models).
All polygons must be defined in CCW winding order in their chosen coordinate system.
"RotationQ" is a quaternion rotation of the object with 1,0,0,0 being the identity.
Polygons must be defined as a triangle list, no strips or fans.
Any additional nodes will be ignored.

Let me know if you have any questions.
bjadams
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Posted: 15th Aug 2012 20:45
can this text based data file be minified ?
i am thinking size wise here
Dar13
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Posted: 15th Aug 2012 21:04
Quote: ""RotationQ" is a quaternion rotation of the object with 1,0,0,0 being the identity."

What's the order of the quaternion? (x,y,z,theta) or (theta,x,y,z)?

Also, is the whitespace required or simply recommended?

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 15th Aug 2012 23:35
Quote: "What's the order of the quaternion? (x,y,z,theta) or (theta,x,y,z)?"


theta,x,y,z

Quote: "is the whitespace required or simply recommended?"

Quote: "can this text based data file be minified ?"


All white space and new line characters are ignored and optional.
kamac
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 00:00
The community will be required to write the exporters to that format I guess?

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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 00:16 Edited at: 16th Aug 2012 00:18
Quote: "The community will be required to write the exporters to that format I guess?"


We hope to support other formats in AppGameKit, like FBX, but that takes a lot more time, so for now we have the internal format and OBJ which is easy for us to support. If someone wants to write an exporter then it would be a great help to us, but hopefully we can get the more common file formats in there too.

One issue we ran into with FBX is there appears to be no SDK for iPhone or Android, and it's a closed format so it is a potential headache.
bitJericho
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 17:03 Edited at: 16th Aug 2012 17:49
I'd be willing to write an exporter or a bunch of them in my spare time. I'll write up a milkshape exporter this weekend.

As for the file format, looks simple enough. What about adding a version identifier so that we can create loaders/importers that can handle and deal with file format changes over time?

Is there a specific language you must have it coded in?

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 22:33
Quote: "I'll write up a milkshape exporter this weekend."


That would be awesome, thank you!

Quote: "What about adding a version identifier so that we can create loaders/importers that can handle and deal with file format changes over time?"


As I see it any future version of AppGameKit will load any old AGO files by using default values for any missing nodes. And any old version of AppGameKit or importer can load future versions of AGO by ignoring nodes it doesn't understand. Unless I've missed something this should make version numbers obsolete?

In fact there is nothing stopping an exporter adding an exporter tag such as

it will be safely skipped over by AGK.

Quote: "Is there a specific language you must have it coded in?"


C++ would be ideal, but whatever you prefer is fine.
bitJericho
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 22:50
Quote: "As I see it any future version of AppGameKit will load any old AGO files by using default values for any missing nodes. And any old version of AppGameKit or importer can load future versions of AGO by ignoring nodes it doesn't understand. Unless I've missed something this should make version numbers obsolete?"


Changes to the defaults I suppose, but otherwise nope.

I'll get cracking. Will have to brush up on my c++ skills, it's been ages

bjadams
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:36
If AppGameKit 3D is going to support OBJ then that is more then enough for me to do some simple tests to play with.

I don't plan to make a 3D project until end of 2013, so hopefully by then AppGameKit 3D would be fully working
bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 01:04
Hmm I thought I responded with another question but maybe it ended up in another thread somewhere

Anyway, what will the file format be called and what is the extension, or have you not gotten that far?

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 01:31
I figured .ago would be good, short for "AGK Object".
zenman
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 04:58
http://assimp.sourceforge.net/index.html

Open Asset Import Library

Don't know if this would help anyone.

Supports a lot of formats.
bjadams
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 16:08
Great find Zenman, using this lib its quite easy to write an exporter that supports most formats as input!
Dar13
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:07
Paul, I have a quick question.

Here's a .OBJ exported from MS3D:


How would we handle passing in the faces to AppGameKit? It appears that they are picking and choosing different components of the vertices in order to create the triangles.

Other than that, this python script handles OBJ pretty well.


Dar13
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 22:17
Since I hit a pothole with my other script, I decided to try out Assimp with the Python bindings.

Here's the script itself:


And here's the output for a basic cube(3ds format with a single assigned texture):


I've attached a ZIP containing all the necessary files.

To use the script, you can either drop a file onto it and it'll create a new file with the same name but extension ".ago" or you can use the commandline and designate an entirely new filename.

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3d point in space
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 22:44 Edited at: 17th Aug 2012 23:12
I think I can make an exporter for my program. Currently I am doing undo a redo for my sprite engine. I have a Three-d section of the program but got to make it export .ago and import .ago files as well as export xml files that define how the object is positioned in space. This might take me a while, but I think that I can do it. Thanks to Dar13 code I think I can make the export more easy.

I do have a question can you move the objects around using commands as well as rotate them, need an answer to this question before I dive too deep into the code? Or is it static objects that can't be moved?

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
Paul Johnston
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 23:49
Quote: "How would we handle passing in the faces to AppGameKit? It appears that they are picking and choosing different components of the vertices in order to create the triangles."


I noticed this when doing the AppGameKit OBJ importer as well, I ended up just going through the faces list and constructing a vertex for every unique a/b/c grouping.

Quote: "Since I hit a pothole with my other script, I decided to try out Assimp with the Python bindings."


Thanks for the script, I shall have to brush up on my Python

Quote: "And here's the output for a basic cube"


I found some bugs in the formatting

-After the Data node requires two close brackets, one for the Data and one for the VertexAttrib
-The "uv" attribute specifies 2 components per vertex but the Data node contains 3 values per vertex. As long as they match either 2 or 3 components will be fine.
-The data contained right hand coordinates but RightHand was set to 0 so the model was inside out. Most modelling programs seem to export in right hand coordinates so the default should probably be 1 and I'll handle the conversion to left hand in AGK.
-The Indices node contained an extra comma at the end of the data

Once those were fixed I could see the cube spinning in AppGameKit

Quote: "can you move the objects around using commands as well as rotate them"


Yes there are commands to position and rotate an object in AGK

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