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Geek Culture / Fans resurrect Half-Life video game

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 02:34
3.8 GB? That's not even counting Steam or the "Source SDK base" (or another Source game). One might as well be downloading Crysis. I really hope that in the future big chunks of data like this won't mean anything.
Indicium
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 02:35
3.8GB for a game isn't bad at all?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
MrValentine
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 02:58
3.8GB off a decent source / server is like... Umm up to one hour or 90 minutes for me...

I believe the average is on ten meg broadband... Typically 800mb in ten minutes so... You can do the maths... Yeah should take less than an hour for me depending on traffic...

I should have more but ... Everyone surrounding my postal code has optical fiber now... Up to the boxes outside their houses the rest is copper wire... But they can still get over fifty meg... Us lot... Lucky to get over twelve meg...


Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 03:01 Edited at: 19th Sep 2012 03:10
@Indicium-

1. Don't use question marks after statements.

2. Those 3.8 GB do not include the other content necessary to play the game, which is beside the fact that the direct download links give you a single file weighing in at 3.8 GB. The system requirements of Half-Life 2 allowed for 2 GB of RAM and quite smooth gameplay. To put it in perspective, 3.8 GB is enough memory for 3,800 high resolution images.

@MrValentine-

10 mbps is a good speed, but broadband is notorious for fluctuating in connection speed. I may only have 1.5 mbps DSL, but the speed never dips except when there's a connection problem. Even those at 50 mbps should be wary. An hour is far too long a download time just to try out a game that you may discard immediately if you don't like it. Your typical hard drive holds around 500 GB, so that's only 125 Source games, but you can cut that number in half due to the amount of space your operating system takes up. Bottom line, developers need to either consider ways of reducing their file sizes or dramatically increase the memory potential of current computer technology.
Dar13
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 05:41
Quote: "To put it in perspective, 3.8 GB is enough memory for 3,800 high resolution images."


Quote: "Feast your eyes on over 2,000 custom Models and 5,000 custom textures – more than HL2!
Experience over 2,000 choreographed scenes and over 6,500 lines of dialogue from all new voice acting!"


As having played the game for just maybe 30 minutes, I'd say the 3.8 GB download was quite worth it. The media is as good as HL2 if not better, and it feels put together by a team of professionals instead of volunteer indies.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 07:43
Quote: "As having played the game for just maybe 30 minutes, I'd say the 3.8 GB download was quite worth it. The media is as good as HL2 if not better, and it feels put together by a team of professionals instead of volunteer indies."


I know, as i mentioned before, Valve proboly couldnt make a better HL1 remake.

i would seriosly pay for this game. I almost hope that valve notices this fanmade mod and support the fans who made it enough to finish the full version of the game.

Speaking of game mods, in my opinion, i believe ambitios fanmade mods and content seem to often surpass the quality of the original work. I think the developers should take more notice at their modding community and give their support to projects like this.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Van B
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 14:18
Quote: "Speaking of game mods, in my opinion, i believe ambitios fanmade mods and content seem to often surpass the quality of the original work. I think the developers should take more notice at their modding community and give their support to projects like this."


Totally, I mean just look at DayZ - turns a pretty crappy realistic FPS into an awesome zombie survival game, and it actually fits what people want, more than AAA titles like Res Evil and Dead Island. Playing that game with 1 or 2 friends is about as good as a zombie game can get.

I'm just on my way back up that chimney thing with the tri-tentacle monster, no matter how many times I do that, it still annoys the hell out of me... going back up, that tricky jump, expecting military dudes to show up anytime, and next I have that big hulk thing to look forward to. Wouldn't change it one bit though. The most fun, are those little bug things that you collect, and send to attack enemies - those little guys are awesome.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Indicium
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 14:58
Quote: "1. Don't use question marks after statements."


I'll do as I like, thanks.

Quote: " To put it in perspective, 3.8 GB is enough memory for 3,800 high resolution images."


Did you forget where you are? I know what 3.8GB is. This is a mod, not the actual game, if you want improvement, the filesize will be bigger.

Quote: "An hour is far too long a download time just to try out a game that you may discard immediately if you don't like it. "


You can leave your computer running for an hour while you do something else, what's the issue?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Metal Devil123
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 15:03
"Aww, you cut the ponytail. Sellout..."

Airslide
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 23:15
Quote: ""Aww, you cut the ponytail. Sellout...""


That was probably my favorite line in the whole thing.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 19th Sep 2012 23:47
Such a great nod to more knowledgeable fans.

Space Biker Gordon would've been cool, though. Maybe in a future mod...
Le Shorte
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 04:01
Quote: ""Aww, you cut the ponytail. Sellout...""

Most definitely the best line in the game. I got a little grin when I heard that.

I really do enjoy this more than the original Half-Life, because like someone else in here said, the facility makes sense now. Also, there are far less times where you're practically required to take damage to advance (which annoys me to no end when it's a health-pack based game and you have no choice but to take damage). Just finished it, and oh my lawd, the final fight before you make the jump to Xen was unbelievably hard. Worth it, though... Very much so...
And the soundtrack is amazing. I can't get We've Got Hostiles out of my head.

Quote: "2. Those 3.8 GB do not include the other content necessary to play the game, which is beside the fact that the direct download links give you a single file weighing in at 3.8 GB. The system requirements of Half-Life 2 allowed for 2 GB of RAM and quite smooth gameplay. To put it in perspective, 3.8 GB is enough memory for 3,800 high resolution images."

Are you confusing RAM with HD space? HL2 was something like 4.5GB... ergo, bigger than Black Mesa.

Cheesehead for life.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 11:12
Once decompressed, Black Mesa weighs in at around 7Gb for me. :S

Questionable Ethics I is also an amazing song, I love the firefight at the end of that chapter, when you're ambushed.

Also, Surface Tension really pulled a number on me. In the original, you climb through a Snark-filled vent, then it gets shot and you fall into a garage, fight through, then fight the Gargantua.

Imagine my sheer terror when I drop down into that tunnel, shoot the two soldiers while somewhat confused at the lack of garage, and see Gargy stomping his way towards me.

I ended up getting blasted on the way out the door, had only 10HP, and got trapped in the nearby water pool while it sat and waited for me.
Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 12:15 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 12:17
Quote: "Are you confusing RAM with HD space? HL2 was something like 4.5GB... ergo, bigger than Black Mesa."

No, RAM means RAM. When I design my games, I try to make most of the content squeeze into RAM to reduce load times. I also try to impose on myself a 100 MB limit. Any more makes it take a long time to download. The thing about HL2 was you could buy it on DVD, but with Black Mesa, you have to download a whole 3.8 GB without even the benefit of Steam's built-in download system (although I wouldn't know because I quit Steam a long time ago).

Quote: "Once decompressed, Black Mesa weighs in at around 7Gb for me. :S"


For you and for everyone else, yet these morons will download and extract it anyways, then go ahead and download ten other indie games that weigh gigabytes and gigabytes until they have to use backup hard drives to store all of their games. If I had as many PC games as I do PS2 games, I'd need a new PC. Not even joking. Something seriously has to be done to either increase computer memory or decrease the memory requirements of these games.

EDIT: Didn't you mean GB? 7Gb is 0.875 GB.
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 13:40
I'm not sure what you're complaining about, the RAM usage or the hard drive usage?

If it's hard drive usage, GBs are cheap cheap(most times <$1). You can get a 1TB internal hard drive for $89 USD nowadays(SATA 3).

If it's RAM, RAM is cheap too(4GB is ~$40).

Indicium
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 14:06
Quote: " I also try to impose on myself a 100 MB limit"


Okay, you go and make Half Life with 100MB.

Quote: "yet these morons will download and extract it anyways"


What? I've got more hard drive space than I know what to do with, 7GB is nothing, I can fit it on my phones internal memory!


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 14:42
Does anyone know how many chapters this game has? Or is it complete?

Quote: "EDIT: Didn't you mean GB? 7Gb is 0.875 GB."


I don't think any of us use the 'official' naming convention since it's been the other way for so long.
Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 15:12 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 15:20
@Dar13-

I mean both hard drive and RAM usage. Those games are greedy suckers. More the hard drive space though.

@Indicium-

I'm sure some version of Half-Life would fit into 100 MB.

@Benjamin-

A byte is 8 bits. Since you typed in Gb and not gb, I assumed that it was an explicit indication of gigabits, rather than a simple lack of capitalization.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 16:33
I've had my PC for 6 years, and still have plenty of room left on my 320Gb HDD...
Van B
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 16:56
I think I have 1.75TB storage, but happily, my Win7 install is on it's own 1TB drive. I'm lazy though, tend not to delete anything, ever, just in case I might need it. I'm like some crusty old hoarder that you see on the TV, with the neck beard and a house full of rubbish.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 17:31
Quote: "Does anyone know how many chapters this game has? Or is it complete?"

It goes up to the Lambda Core for now IIRC.

Quote: "I mean both hard drive and RAM usage. Those games are greedy suckers. More the hard drive space though."

They're greedy suckers because the media requires it, and the media is required by the PC gamers("WE NEED 10 MILLION BY 10 MILLION HD TEXTURES OMGZZZZ HD EVERYTHING!"). If you could fit a game that's the same quality and length of Black Mesa that only took up 100 MB of hard drive space I will give you 100 internets.

I have ~1.5TB and I'm barely using half of my internal HDD(600GB or so) and even less of my external 1TB drive.

Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 17:32 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 17:35
Quote: "I've had my PC for 6 years, and still have plenty of room left on my 320Gb HDD..."


40 GB isn't a lot of space.

@Dar13-

Is it so hard for a game to use PNG compression and generate mipmaps and specular maps on the fly? Is it that bad to have sound effects compressed in MP3 format? Do we really need skyboxes made out of 3D geometry? Do there really need to be 5 variations of the same scientist?
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 17:55
Quote: "Is it so hard for a game to use PNG compression and generate mipmaps and specular maps on the fly? Is it that bad to have sound effects compressed in MP3 format? Do we really need skyboxes made out of 3D geometry? Do there really need to be 5 variations of the same scientist?"

Decompression of PNG is quite slow, so a compressed DDS would be better. Generation of mip-maps during loading can also be slow. Specular maps are generally hand-tuned to give the precise effect that the artist wants, so generating those are, generally, a no-go. Skyboxes that utilize pure 3D geometry are rare and usually use very simple shapes and texture/shader tricks to pull off their visuals. The scientists at least share similar if not the same character model so the developers actually saved space.

A lot of the graphical things that developers do(like the variations of scientists) are things that their customers/audience demands in order to be a "good" game in the mainstream consciousness.

Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 18:02
@Dar13-

If it saved a few hundred MB, I'd be willing to sit out inflation of the textures. Specular maps could be autogenerated based on how important they were. The skyboxes are almost always quite 3D and there are topless buildings and mini trees and all kinds of stuff like that that doesn't really need to be there. When it comes to the characters, I'd say what was done in Black Mesa and Half-Life 2 looked really nice, but admit it, there are a lot more characters in Black Mesa than in the original Half-Life. Wasted space, if you ask me, considering it's just a remake.
Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 18:05
I'm not sure about the BM files specifically, but DDS supports lossy compression, which if used will save a lot more space than PNG.

Quote: "A byte is 8 bits. Since you typed in Gb and not gb, I assumed that it was an explicit indication of gigabits, rather than a simple lack of capitalization."


Outside of telecommunications the term gigabit is rarely used.

Quote: "It goes up to the Lambda Core for now IIRC."


Cool, thanks.
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 18:27
Quote: "I'd say what was done in Black Mesa and Half-Life 2 looked really nice, but admit it, there are a lot more characters in Black Mesa than in the original Half-Life. Wasted space, if you ask me, considering it's just a remake."

The thing is that it's not just a remake. It's an expansion on the game as well. The original Half-Life had a lot more technical limitations compared to today, and so the Black Mesa team decided to create a mod that would recreate Half-Life with more modern technologies and techniques.

Quote: "If it saved a few hundred MB, I'd be willing to sit out inflation of the textures."

And if I told you that load times would be almost 3 times as long as they are now? I've experienced this slowdown in my own game and the PNG decompression algorithm used by FreeImage is almost 3 times slower than the DDS decompression algorithm used by Ogre(not sure which dependency it uses for that, might be FreeImage as well).

Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 19:07
Lossy decompression isn't my thing, and I don't know a whole lot about the DDS format other than that it supports mipmaps and it comes in all different color bitrates like standard bitmaps.

Also, I find the AI in Half-Life 2 somewhat worse than the original's. You see, not all aspects were improved and expanded upon. It's pretty much just another Half-Life: Source (except you don't have to pay for it and the graphics are significantly improved).
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 19:49
Quote: "Also, I find the AI in Half-Life 2 somewhat worse than the original's. You see, not all aspects were improved and expanded upon. It's pretty much just another Half-Life: Source (except you don't have to pay for it and the graphics are significantly improved)."

Did you mean to refer to Black Mesa where you said HL2? Because otherwise I'm very confused.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 20:15
Quote: "Is it so hard for a game to use PNG compression and generate mipmaps and specular maps on the fly? Is it that bad to have sound effects compressed in MP3 format? Do we really need skyboxes made out of 3D geometry? Do there really need to be 5 variations of the same scientist?"


That defeats the entire purpose of a graphical remake.

Why do we not use MP3? Because other formats retain the original sound data better.

Why are skyboxes not just boxes anymore? Because they looked 2D and fake.

Everything you're arguing to remove from games would essentially make this game a slight variation of Half Life...with worse graphics.
Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 20:20
Quote: "Why do we not use MP3? Because other formats retain the original sound data better."


I'm sure it's nothing to do with licensing issues.
Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 23:10
@Dar13-

I was talking about features of the Source engine that became apparent in Half-Life 2 (which is what all Source games are based on).

@CoffeeGrunt-

I guess you've never played Half-Life for the PS2.

@Benjamin-

Well, there's OGG. Same difference, if you ask me.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Sep 2012 23:14
Quote: "I guess you've never played Half-Life for the PS2."


Oh, the Blue Shift media package. Yes, of course...the improvement was negligible.
Jeku
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 03:52
Fluffy Rabbit - I'm going to ask you an obvious question. Why moan on and on about a free game, when you have the option not to play? If you're really unhappy about the file size I have a great solution for you. Don't download.

Sometimes I don't understand why people gripe about things that they don't have to buy or download.


Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
PAGAN_old
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 13:03
Quote: "I think I have 1.75TB storage, but happily, my Win7 install is on it's own 1TB drive. I'm lazy though, tend not to delete anything, ever, just in case I might need it. I'm like some crusty old hoarder that you see on the TV, with the neck beard and a house full of rubbish."


Same here! i have 6 terabytes of harddrives saved up for hoarding data, About half filled, I am planning to purchase a bunch of terabytes so i can have a backup of all my currently filled terabytes. Also, i hoard computer hardware a lot. And on a few occasions people did actually call me an "old man" for that.

Also:

Quote: "I'm sure it's nothing to do with licensing issues."

That^


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 15:46 Edited at: 21st Sep 2012 15:50
The file size is fair, you're downloading a complete game. Many games out there are much larger. 15gb for me to download Diablo III, 30gb for SW:TOR. I have a pretty slow internet connection and have an 80gb per month limit, but the size of this doesn't matter to me, I just gotta be patient is all.

Though with SW:TOR I did buy the hard copy instead of the digital download, but I did sit through the full 30gb when I wanted to try the trial. It took forever, but it just ran in the background whilst I was doing other things. The lastest World of Warcraft patch is expecting me to download 8gbs, which I've been doing very casually over the last month.

These days, 3.8gbs isn't unreasonable. Games can use a lot of data. We've long past the days when games were <1gb. To put it into perspective Final Fantasy VIII is ~800mbs on my HDD and the game is more than 10 years old, compared to modern games it has a fraction of the polygon count, a fraction of the texture resolution, the music is a fraction of the filesize (as it uses MIDIs) and the movies are all stored on CDRom and even they are a fraction of the resolution we use these days. You're going to expect the size of games to multiply as the quality of the media gets better and better.

If you don't like it, Jeku puts it very fairly. Don't play it. I'd only download a game if I definitely want to play it, because I don't have a mega-internet connection, so that does mean I'm more selective about the downloads, but I know that for many games a large filesize is not unreasonable. Heck, as stated 3.8gb is not considered large anymore.

Kezzla
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 16:03
my mega internet connection begins on Monday. It has been so hard not reading this thread after I realized it was littered with spoilers. in a week or two I will be able to join this discussion. I cannot wait. I am a major halflife fan. It was the singular most epic FPS experience in my life as a computer game enthusiast. I want to see it rebooted. stoked.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 18:25
@Jeku-

Sorry, Jeku. I don't rest until I prove myself right.
Blobby 101
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 18:44
Fluffy rabbit, you sound like an over-privileged child, give it a rest.

KeithC
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 19:29
Quote: "Sometimes I don't understand why people gripe about things that they don't have to buy or download."


Because some people live to complain, and complain to live.

Quote: "Sorry, Jeku. I don't rest until I prove myself right. "


You're not "right"; you're just someone with an over-bloated opinion, and it's getting old. As was said....don't download or play it. The developers who worked most or all of their spare time (away from real jobs and their families), don't need to hear your whining.

-Keith

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 20:29
Idk, i think Fluffy rabbits blunt skeptisism on some issues provoked good insights from the other people. For example when we talked about texture file and soundfile formats, i remember when i had to work out some issues with the problem of media file formats in dark basic. Mostly the issue was converting some 3d models into .DBO format because they loaded faster (never had any problem with using PNGs or JPEGS as textures tho, and started to wonder why no other games use more mainstream file formats so it would be easier for people who like to make game mods. it would definatley save tons of time and effort if you dont have to search the internet like crazy to find a program that can work with a single file format). Depending on the format and whatever program used to read it, or modify it, you may find your model or texture needs to be sent trough a chain of editors and converters because some program can imort a format you need but dont support a function to export it in that format so you end up exporting the file in another format because some other program you have can export it in the original format thats only compatible with [insert name engine here] but cant import it in that format. Oh but that editing tool dosent have that sweet feature from another unrelated editing tool. but it dosent support any of the file formats that your current set of editors and converters you have. but you remember some ancient and proboly long dead piece of editing software that can read some of the formats from your converters that can be reconverted by another converter so you can use that program with that cool editing feature you like on this file you are working on. And then you have to push it through a chain of editors and converters again this time reverting it to the native format of [insert engine name here].
Then you sit back and pray that after so much conversions, the file even renders properly. If you are lucky and everything works then you might later discover that the process does infact crew up the file under the right conditions like certain filter or effect will cause a bugs or something screwed up on the file that went trough so much abuse. If you get extremeley lucky and it really does come out flawless, then you still decide the extra effort is not worth it. This might me a bit exxagerated, but its this sort of thing that got me very angry with the people who develop software and games. And the rather unpleasant reason, for abandoning some of my dark basic projects i started.



Quote: " "I'm sure it's nothing to do with licensing issues.""


THIS GUY^.... At the time, it never occured to me that it could be a licencing issue. I understand that some file formats are processed faster than others in a particular software or rendering systems, I still questioned why wouldnt they just make the software or engine have the ability to read and process a more standard mainstream file formats at the same speeds. Maybe they are lazy.
IT never occured to me that using those file formats could involve licencing. Now i know.

I am no stranger to beurocracy as on several occasions, i have to go to some office for a document on something, but that document needs validation and notorisation so i could finally take it to another public works department of unneceseary large amounts of paperwork so they can first check all the documents for any insignificant issues they could knitpick out of them that dont really matter, but the office workers can use it as an excuse to avoid approving my documents instead sending me to some other public department of bullcrap where i got one of the documents before a new law passed about tax codes rendedring my copy out of date and invalid. And when i finally got all my stuff together, i start questioning if all the beurocratic hoops they made me jump trough was worth it because in the end all that work was just so i could recieve yet another slightly more important document.

This is what the file format thing reminded me of. Beurocracy, it even exists in the realms of software development. via file formats.

Honestley i bet this kind of stuff really turns off a lot of potentially creative people from realizing their clever ideas which happen to be inspired by something they saw, but because its someones intellectual property you cant use it even with your own slight modifications that improve the original idea.

Then again, i can understand why some people who invented the thing first want to make money off of their work.

Hm i am starting to develop some kind of technological development darwinism idea. Abolish all patent laws, let anyone copy and modify whatever idea they like and sell it for whatever price they want. It would be interesting to see who would fail and who would come out on top. I guess its what open sourse software concept is like, Would be curois to see what kind of electronic hardware/gadgets could come out of this....

There would proboly be as many modifications of iPhones as there are linux distros.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 20:35 Edited at: 21st Sep 2012 20:36
Quote: "Sorry, Jeku. I don't rest until I prove myself right. "


No offense intended by asking this, but what do you do when you're wrong? Because not stopping until you've proven yourself right if it turns out you're wrong is not a healthy stance and it's one where there'd be no point anybody voicing a disagreement with you, because you'd be right no matter what.

I am not saying that's what you do - I can't stand it when people do (because it's so unfair and unbalanced) - so I am just hoping you can clarify what you mean so I don't accidentally misunderstand you.

ionstream
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 21:01
Quote: "Sometimes I don't understand why people gripe about things that they don't have to buy or download."


I really dislike this mentality. Something being free does not exempt it from criticism. It's not acting entitled to point out flaws in something that's of no cost.

KeithC
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 21:23
Quote: "I really dislike this mentality. Something being free does not exempt it from criticism."


Criticism is one thing; but Fluffy seems to be taking it to new heights. He's said it himself; he wants to prove himself "right"....whatever that entails.

-Keith

Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 23:10
Quote: "Sorry, Jeku. I don't rest until I prove myself right."


I can't surely be the only one who realises this was a joke?

Back on topic: I'm really enjoying the game so far. The only thing that bugs me is the really slow ADS animation (obviously someone likes their work far too much) and the crowbar animation which seems a bit stiff. And the fact that the standard pistol has no ADS function.
Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 23:29
Immoral to criticize a game? I'm out of this thread.
KeithC
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Posted: 21st Sep 2012 23:46
Quote: "Immoral to criticize a game? I'm out of this thread."


Didn't see anyone using that word at all; care to point it out? As for being "out of this thread"; that's your choice.

-Keith

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2012 00:47 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2012 00:55
Quote: "Immoral to criticize a game? I'm out of this thread. "


Nobody said it was.

But it seems you aren't liking the fact people disagree with you. I pretty much have the same kind of internet connection as you, a 250gb HDD and think you're wrong. I wouldn't want to see the sacrifices needed to make a game smaller in size. I just deal with the speed of internet I've got, deal with the fact I'm not going to store a bajillion games on my hard drive at once and will have to uninstall games I'm not currently playing to make space for one I wanna play. It's not really an issue. I can hit 'download' and go do stuff whilst it's downloading. Still quicker than ordering something to be delivered in the mail.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2012 05:50
Is anyone here familiar with a concept of arguing for the sake of arguing like a sport? well i guess thats what places like debate clubs are. Sometimes, i argue with my friends and defend the opposite pov of of their opinion and attempt to back up the position as much as i can. This is a useful skill because ive been in situations where my own arguments were used against me leaving myself with nothing to back up my position. Arguing on a defence of an issue you personally dont agree with really helps you in your arguing skills and can save you plenty of unpleasentries in an actual verbal conflict with someone.

Quote: "Immoral to criticize a game? I'm out of this thread"

Critisizing a game is good for the developer i believe. (if they listen)

I have a vauge example. that might not completley prove the point but it bore results.

When TES4 Oblivion came out i was already a hardcore morrowind fan. There were constant arguing between younger generation oblivion fans and older people who grew up on morrowind (not exxagerating here, i spent several years obsessed with morrowind) Despite of being a big fan of TES series i critisized Oblivion very hard mostly on the athstetic aspect of the game, and features from morrowind that werent implemented in oblivion or other features that were dumbed down in a stupid way.
The surprise came last year when Skyrim came out and it was as if all my comlaining about Oblivion was heard by the game developers. I think, other people who were morrowind fans provided the same points of critisism as me always comparing how much better morrowind was in certain aspects.

Skyrim not only returned the morrowind features that i loved, they tried to make skyrim to appeal to morrowind fans as much as they could all the way to small things like the adding some of the morrowind soundtrack, color of eyes on certain races, picking accurate voices for all races They even diched the old random generation of forests and dungeons and built the whole world by hand. The probole collective critisism on the fame from Morrowind fans i think influenced Todd Howard to listen to the older more loyal fans of the series. So in this aspect i believe if you are a big fan of a game, and find something you dont like, you should voice your opinion. Collective complaints from an important social group that companies, orgonisations and even governments are dependent on will not likeley be ignored otherwise they risk loosing their fans or whatever group of people that is important to keep on their good side


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2012 06:00 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2012 06:03
Quote: "Is anyone here familiar with a concept of arguing for the sake of arguing like a sport? well i guess thats what places like debate clubs are. Sometimes, i argue with my friends and defend the opposite pov of of their opinion and attempt to back up the position as much as i can."


This is why I choose to argue/debate with people I disagree with. Though, I much prefer if I'm going to be open minded and is fair and so's the other side. It's why my discussions are refined to an environment that welcomes it.

What you're talking about is called the "devil's advocate", though generally when people are playing the devil's advocate they open with the phrase "to play the devil's advocate...", it doesn't change the weight of what they have to say, you just know it's not their perspective, but they are challenging you with an alternative. I just find it's respectful to be honest with whoever you're talking to. It might be more obvious to your friends of course because they know that you do it.

Quote: "Critisizing a game is good for the developer i believe. (if they listen)"


By all means, criticise away. How else are people to know if fans are unhappy? Sometimes I do think people complain about ridiculous things, it's their right to, but I'll probably exercise my right to openly disagree with them and criticise their criticisms.

Van B
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2012 15:55
It's a good idea to be careful and honest about what you say about other developers in this forum... I've been called up once already about something I said, then they found it through a google search. Ironically what I said was 100% truth, but still felt bad that they found it.

Anyway, I'd just say, get over the issues with download size and just enjoy it. Appreciate the amount of work that has been put in, just so we can re-experience one of the best games ever made.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!

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