Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Yet Another Threat To Our Liberty

Author
Message
nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 13:55 Edited at: 13th Sep 2012 16:32
I feel everyone needs to be made aware of this:

Quote: "
Big business has a new plan to fatten their pockets: a giant global pact, with an international tribunal to enforce it, that is kept top secret for years (even from our lawmakers!) and then brought down like a Death Star on our democracies. Big Tobacco, Big Oil, Big Pharma, Walmart and almost 600 other corporate lobbyists are all in on the final draft -- including limits on smoking laws, affordable medicines and free speech on the Net.
"


~ From Avaaz's website.

You can sign the petition or find out more here:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_the_corporate_death_star/?baQGidb&v=17866

Five seconds of your day could help preserve our liberties. Yeah, sure, one day we will inevitably be enslaved by a corporate-controlled government / Trade Federation but let's not allow it to be now.

Benjamin
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 14:07 Edited at: 13th Sep 2012 14:07
Quote: "Big Tobacco, Big Oil, Big Pharma, Walmart and almost 600 other corporate lobbyists are all in on the final draft -- including limits on smoking laws, affordable medicines and free speech on the Net."


All terms used by conspiracy theorists, strangely enough. Oh wait.
xplosys
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 15:19
Somebody's been drinking the cool-aide.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

SpyDaniel
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Feb 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 15:19
The Yanks sure like using the word "Big" a lot. Plus it read like some crazy person typed it.
nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 16:45
Avaaz are an extremely trustworthy organization. They don't post conspiracy theory nutter stuff. They are independent campaigners and have been instrumental in standing up for human rights in hundreds of causes world-wide. They were instrumental in stopping SOPA and PIPA. Have a look at their site (I fixed the link btw) and look them up in trusted online sources. I know it sounds crazy and if it hadn't come from Avaaz, I wouldn't have believed it but I've been a member quite a while and can tell you that don't post BS. Do some independent research on Avaaz before judging. Finally, what harm will it do to sign the petition even if you believe it to be BS? Worst case scenario you waste less time than it took to post a witty-retort, best case scenario is you help protect human rights.

FYI: lol, your comments were all clever/funny nonetheless. I know what this petition sounds like and smells of so I can still appreciate the humor in it

Michael P
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Mar 2006
Location: London (UK)
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 17:28
It is talking about this, right?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Strategic_Economic_Partnership

After briefly reading the wikipedia page I would agree some of the US proposals leaked look bad.

I don't think Avaaz describes what this is properly though, its not big business to blame, its the US government for coming up with these proposals. It looks like the US government is trying to use international law to make it harder for the next government to reverse its policies on intellectual property and controls on the internet.

CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 18:32 Edited at: 13th Sep 2012 19:30
MOD EDIT: Please keep your Pony Videos in the appropriate thread.

But really, why don't you just not vote the guys who do this next time? It's kinda funny how often the World Wide Web almost gets torpedoed/converted to a police state by American law...
Quik
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jul 2008
Location: Equestria!
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 19:03
Quote: "It's kinda funny how often the World Wide Web almost gets torpedoed/converted to a police state by American law..."


If I am affected by it I will care, now I havent read anything about this but, the last two times stuff like this happened I was in some way affected
<which I find COMPLETLY unreasonable...>



Whose eyes are those eyes?
CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 20:17
I think if this happens, the US will simply see a large exodus of servers from their territory to overseas. I mean, isn't Facebook planning on basing its server somewhere in Norway, now?

Worth pointing out that this would be bad for their economy.
Aertic
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Jul 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 20:36
Quote: "The Yanks sure like using the word "Big" a lot. Plus it read like some crazy person typed it."

Someone needs to throw a thesaurus or two at them.
xplosys
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 20:45
It's actually only half the Yanks that use that language, but they're the louder half.
I'm sorry to say that our government is broken and totally out of control... beyond anything voting can solve. Oh well, history repeats itself.

Brian.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

Benjamin
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 21:04
Quote: "I'm sorry to say that our government is broken and totally out of control... beyond anything voting can solve. Oh well, history repeats itself."


Oh the grand irony behind of US trying to implement 'democracy' in other countries... oh well, most of us developed countries have this problem of the politicians having too much power and the people too little.

Quote: "Avaaz are an extremely trustworthy organization."


If that's the case they could have had someone write a more presentable, rational article.
ionstream
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2004
Location: Overweb
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 21:17
I'd be more worried about Big Tomato, sucking this country dry! Also the great dental scam of flossing.

Eddie Gordo
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Jan 2003
Location: Ohio - USA
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 22:22
Passionate speech inspires action...

Not unlike BIG ADVERTISING WHO WILL ONE DAY CONTROL OUR BRAINS!

~Cyrano De Bergerac~
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 23:03 Edited at: 13th Sep 2012 23:06
Quote: "But really, why don't you just not vote the guys who do this next time? "

Because both sides are doing it, they're both in the pockets of the lobbyists. Third parties can't compete because they don't have the funds. This is what happens when you base a democracy on capitalism. Those terms simply don't go together, it's basically a direct translation of "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others."

This has been going on for decades if not more and people act like it's some sort of conspiracy, and talk about the Illuminati, as if some clandestine operation was required to take control of the government. It's no secret: it's money. This greed, this behaviour of amassing wealth and power and subjugating others is exactly the behaviour which capitalism encourages and favours, this is what we value as successful in our culture.

It's a poisoned system and we must get money out of politics. We have to create a centralised fund to support all political parties equally and outlaw political donations.

I'm not sure whether this breaches the AUP because while this is obviously political, there is no partisan bickering here, which is what I assume the AUP is trying to prevent.

Shh... you're pretty.
Matty H
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Oct 2008
Location: England
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 23:37
Quote: "It's a poisoned system and we must get money out of politics. We have to create a centralised fund to support all political parties equally and outlaw political donations."


I think this sometimes also. But who gets the funding?

Is it split up in equal portions for every political party, there could be thousands of parties all getting an equal share.

A better system may be to base the funding on current vote share, not perfect, since it would still favour the current big parties but over time it could level the playing field.

To defend the current system you could say people donating is the best way, this way, the parties with most support get most funding, let the market decide? So in theory this seems like a good system but the reality is a lot different I think.

One last idea, perhaps a cap on donation funding, if you have the support then you get funded but only to a maximum amount. This way the parties would not constantly be chasing funding to compete with each other, I think Formula 1 did something similar to stop the big teams dominating, same principal.

I think you are right about avoiding partisan bickering, should be fine, I think

CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 13th Sep 2012 23:44
Quote: "To defend the current system you could say people donating is the best way, this way, the parties with most support get most funding, let the market decide? So in theory this seems like a good system but the reality is a lot different I think."


A hundred civilians doesn't compare to one rather large corporation though, does it? I've heard that lies at the heart of most of America's problems.

This is how serious the copyright situation really is:
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 14th Sep 2012 02:06 Edited at: 14th Sep 2012 02:11
Quote: "This is how serious the copyright situation really is:"
So that's a sarcastic statement... I see what ya did there.

"That's what"
-She
nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 14th Sep 2012 12:09 Edited at: 14th Sep 2012 12:10
Quote: "I don't think Avaaz describes what this is properly though"

Yeah, I don't think they described it 100% perfectly either. What they were getting at though was that TPP essentially seems geared towards big-business interests on a global-level.
From wiki-page you linked to:
Quote: "The Office of the United States Trade Representative proposal for the TPP intellectual property chapter would:

Include a number of features that would lock-in as a global norm many controversial features of U.S. law, such as endless copyright terms.
Create new global norms that are contrary to U.S. legal traditions, such as those proposed to damages for infringement, the enforcement of patents against surgeons and other medical professional, rules concerning patents on biologic medicines etc.
Undermine many proposed reforms of the patent and copyright system, such as, for example, proposed legislation to increase access to orphaned copyrighted works by limiting damages for infringement, or statutory exclusions of "non-industrial" patents such as those issued for business methods.
Eliminate any possibility of parallel trade in copyrighted books, journals, sheet music, sound recordings, computer programs, and audio and visual works.
Require criminal enforcement for technological measures beyond WIPO Internet Treaties, even when there is not copyright infringement, impose a legal regime of ISP liability beyond the DMCA standards.
Require legal incentives for service providers to cooperate with copyright owners in deterring the unauthorized storage and transmission of copyrighted materials.
Require identifying internet users for any ISP, going beyond U.S. case law, includes the text of the controversial US/KOREA side letter on shutting down web sites.
Require adopting compensation for infringement without actual damages.
Require criminal punishment of commercial and non-commercial copyright and trademark infringement.
"

I think they're also putting it in ways that everyday people understand. Remember the wizard's first rule is that "People are stupid" and often get fooled into thinking something isn't bad because they don't see the potential threat. This happened in my country when the government tried to pass a bill that would gag journalists and whistle-blowers to protect corrupt politicians. Luckily people started waking up - a lot due to social networking (another reason I support an uncontrolled web).

Quote: "MOD EDIT: Please keep your Pony Videos in the appropriate thread."

C'mon, wasn't that within an acceptable context despite its contents?

Quote: "we must get money out of politics."

I totally agree. I wouldn't know where to go from there though. It would be nice if a university could actually take on the task of redesigning a better theoretical political system with regard to keeping business interest away from politics. I'm sure if enough intelligent, knowledgeable and creative people collaborated, they could find an answer. Even if it wasn't perfect, I'd just welcome an improvement.

Quote: "This is how serious the copyright situation really is:"

"Copyright Maths" - good one!

CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 14th Sep 2012 16:42
Quote: "C'mon, wasn't that within an acceptable context despite its contents?"


I only just noticed that...

In my defence, there wasn't another video on Youtube that used the words, "here we go" in such an exasperated manner. Also, it was what...2, maybe 3 seconds of runtime?

Quote: ""Copyright Maths" - good one!"


It just don't add up.
DeadTomGC
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Aug 2010
Location: LU
Posted: 16th Sep 2012 21:14
I'm not really worried about this. A contract doesn't stop bullets. "As long as men die, liberty will never perish."


CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 16th Sep 2012 21:45
Quote: "I'm not really worried about this. A contract doesn't stop bullets. "As long as men die, liberty will never perish.""


That's a cute sentiment. So you'll shoot people because they make laws you don't like?
DeadTomGC
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Aug 2010
Location: LU
Posted: 16th Sep 2012 22:00
If you think that such a contract will lead to us being slaves to some massive corporation, then yes.


ionstream
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2004
Location: Overweb
Posted: 16th Sep 2012 22:29
Yeah, it'll be just like V for Vendetta! It will be so epic to murder people!

CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 16th Sep 2012 22:32
I know, it'll be just like targets at my shooting range! They absolutely won't have guns shooting back!
nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 17th Sep 2012 09:40
Can't get that Detroit Metal City song, "Satsugai", out my head now.

PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 18th Sep 2012 13:02
Nothing new as far as i am concerned. I do remember the time where i actually believed that governments ran the world and sinding out about all these global corporate financial schemes, turned my world upside down and made it hard to comprehend how the world works. When i started telling my grandmother about this after i moved from US to Russia, turns out she knew about the corporate world takeover for decades now. But it seriosly made me question a lot of what i used to belive and still does.

I have this interesting viewpoint i want to share.

Centuries ago, the nations were ruled by kings and emperors. they had the most wealth so they have the most power (not sure about this but in medeval europe, the cardinal was more powerful than all the major rulers in europe back then but i dont know if he had more wealth than the kings of that time)

As centuries went by, people grew restless of tyranny and the world was changing anyway with the industrial revolution happening, so kings and emperors gave their power to presidents and prime ministers themselves becoming more of a decorative royalty like the England royalty today those kings who refused to give up power were eventually taken out by force. at the beginning of the 20th century, the wealthy bankers businessmen made their play for power (they certainly had the money to influence governments)

Finally, leading up to the modern times, the presidents and prime ministers of nations, seem to be becoming decorative leadership for the eyes of the public as the important decisions are made by the wealthy elite who lobbies polititians. Barack Obama to me dosent seem to have much real power in the government and seems like he is backing the corporations and (correct me if i am wrong) still cant push his government healthcare trough recieving a lot of opposition from the pharmasutical and medical corporations.

also untill recentley i had no idea that germany even had a president! according to the news the chancellor Angela Merkel is in charge of germany. When i asked some people about the german president, some of the answers i got are he is there just for show and has no real power.

In Russia as well, even tho everything is very secretive in the government and Putin seemes like he keeps corporations in line, i started to begin doubting that when the biggest corporation in russia- Gazprom decided to throw a huge party celebration in Kremlin (the seat of the government) to celebrate their 20 year anniversary. and they openley said that they spent around 50 million dollars on the party. They set up a stage there invited celeberties and everything. I just found that odd. an annivercary of a corporation celebrated almost on a scale of some national holiday.

I saw a pattern here. Throught history, those with the most wealth always held the most power. and corporations these days certainly have a lot more money than governments.

i am actually kinda curious to see this globalization thing happen. It will be like a dystopic cyberpunk movie, we all would have chips in our brains and stuff. and there will proboly be some huge global corporation ruling over us like... idk wallmart or Microsoft...


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 18th Sep 2012 20:32
@DeadTom
Quote: "A contract doesn't stop bullets. "As long as men die, liberty will never perish.""

You really missed the point of that speech! It's not about killing people, it's that no regime lasts forever and there is always hope for the future.

For those who don't know what we're talking about:


@Pagan
Good post. I'd go further and say that our current system is no different to the feudalism of the past: the corporations are the new Lords and the politicians the Reeves, while we remain peasants. We undoubtedly have better lives and more rights than before but they weren't given to us through some natural evolution, our predecessors had to fight for every right we have today and those rights are only upheld because we are educated enough to demand they be upheld.

This is why it deeply troubles me that so many are not interested in their own education -- not reliant on schooling, which was grossly underwhelming in my experience -- because an educated public is a free public. It worries me that children are not taught to think critically, nor taught the first thing about politics and how it affects their daily lives. Schools are so obsessed with drumming facts and figures into the minds of children that they completely neglect the power of thought itself.

I despise the idea that some are born more intelligent than others; there may be some minor differences, and in some cases disabilities that restrict brain function, but the difference is usually negligible. There's no reason why someone smart enough to become a mechanic is not smart enough to engage in intellectual debate. The fault is that of the teacher not the student. So many people are discarded as "inferior" at such a young age, simply because they didn't catch on to one aspect of learning as quickly as the rest, or because they were unlucky enough to have a bad teacher.

This is why it is all the more important to value education, at all ages, because learning is not exclusive to children and I honestly don't believe that childhood is the best time for a lot of people to learn (I find I'm much more interested in learning now than I ever was at school). We need to value education more as a society: we should be providing free education for all, at all levels and all ages. There is so much free information on the internet and it really is a wonderful thing that can help educate many people; I can only hope that the corporations are unsuccessful in their quest for web-censorship.

Shh... you're pretty.
nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 00:54
Quote: "an educated public is a free public. It worries me that children are not taught to think critically, nor taught the first thing about politics and how it affects their daily lives. Schools are so obsessed with drumming facts and figures into the minds of children that they completely neglect the power of thought itself"


The whole idea of social engineering involves the teaching of obedience to authority and apathy to all other life on the planet. Sadly, most people aren't aware of this and have been brainwashed to the point that they cannot think for themselves. They become caught up in what they are lead to believe is normal and follow that path religiously. The funniest irony ever was as I watched "being an individual" becoming "fashionable".

ionstream
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2004
Location: Overweb
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 01:37
I heard that they even have a cure for cancer, but BIG Pharma won't let it get passed! Also Robobama is quite literally programmed to do whatever these big corporations say, because they're the ones who built him!

PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 09:44 Edited at: 19th Sep 2012 09:57
Quote: "Good post. I'd go further and say that our current system is no different to the feudalism of the past: the corporations are the new Lords and the politicians the Reeves, while we remain peasants. We undoubtedly have better lives and more rights than before but they weren't given to us through some natural evolution, our predecessors had to fight for every right we have today and those rights are only upheld because we are educated enough to demand they be upheld.

This is why it deeply troubles me that so many are not interested in their own education not reliant on schooling, which was grossly underwhelming in my experience because an educated public is a free public. It worries me that children are not taught to think critically, nor taught the first thing about politics and how it affects their daily lives. Schools are so obsessed with drumming facts and figures into the minds of children that they completely neglect the power of thought itself.

I despise the idea that some are born more intelligent than others; there may be some minor differences, and in some cases disabilities that restrict brain function, but the difference is usually negligible. There's no reason why someone smart enough to become a mechanic is not smart enough to engage in intellectual debate. The fault is that of the teacher not the student. So many people are discarded as "inferior" at such a young age, simply because they didn't catch on to one aspect of learning as quickly as the rest, or because they were unlucky enough to have a bad teacher.

This is why it is all the more important to value education, at all ages, because learning is not exclusive to children and I honestly don't believe that childhood is the best time for a lot of people to learn (I find I'm much more interested in learning now than I ever was at school). We need to value education more as a society: we should be providing free education for all, at all levels and all ages. There is so much free information on the internet and it really is a wonderful thing that can help educate many people; I can only hope that the corporations are unsuccessful in their quest for web-censorship."


Your concerns about the education system are valid. I am afraid that the degredation of public education transforming schools into indoctorination centers is happening all over the world. a completley new culture is being created as we speak trough our younger generation. a generation that to me seemes to set itself to self-distruction unknowingly. They are taught to consume instead of creating, calling on the most primitive instincts of humanity.
As for the remaining educated public demanding freedoms they used to have, Reading up on history i learned that people are easily tricked by the ones who hold power as manipulating humanity subtilly proves to be more safe (for those in power) and efficient, than challenging them directly. The current threat of the financial crisis might be a fake play to manipulate the world population somehow. While the crisis is quite real, i started to doubt that it is entirley unavoidable as the media speculates. I think, proper responsible leadership with a good head on its shoulders, is capable of fixing the crisis with the least damage for the population. Its a possible scenario that it could all be just a trick to get people to support an agenda of those in power.

As for education and developing personal skills, i also agree, and i would like to add that i believe that anyone, no matter what their physical and intellectual qualifications may be, can master anything if we put our mind and effort to it. Its a question of proper motivation. My personal experience has given me more than a few examples where i surpassed my own expectations.
For example, in school i was a typical dumb student who teachers considered to have mental disorders like ADHD and other fictional mental conditions that impared my learning process. I barley passed every year of high school with D- grades. and i would certainly fail for the year, if the fear of staying back didnt give me sudden motivation making my last major assigments of the year the most high quality work i ever did. The teachers even thought i plagerised someone elses work when all year i got Ds and F grades and suddenley at the end of the year i end up turning in work that was good enough to be published even tho i never liked the subject in the first place and never even showed slight interest.

Same goes for my hardware projects i attempt. Most of my projects were failures or abandoned. Then i really wanted to build a cintiq-like tablet. knowing only the basic concepts of how it works and having close to no experience in this particular area, i stil took it up secretley believing that i will fail agan or get bored and abandon it. and i certainly nearly fried and broke my project several times, but in the end it somehow ended up to be the best work i ever done. the final products functionality surpassed even my own expectations.

So whenever someone says that guy has no talent for areas, or they are too dumb to understand trigonometry (like me) i call nonsence as i proved to myself that with proper motivation be it death threats or a reward, anyone can accomplish something impoosible. and calling someone dumb and making judgment about others potential only works to discourage them from trying (unless they want to be proven wrong)

Quote: "The whole idea of social engineering involves the teaching of obedience to authority and apathy to all other life on the planet. Sadly, most people aren't aware of this and have been brainwashed to the point that they cannot think for themselves. They become caught up in what they are lead to believe is normal and follow that path religiously. The funniest irony ever was as I watched "being an individual" becoming "fashionable"."

Completley agree with you there, altho, going with or against the majoritys trends and behaviors can be be both good and bad. On one hand you can become brainwashed sheep blindly following everyone else to their doom. On the other hand going against the social current for whatever reasons you may have, this can end just as bad when you forget to realize the social current has its reasons for going in one direction or another, valid reasons that are based on common sence rather than blind obedience. Nothing is one sided in our 3D world and you just gotta use your head and analyze your situation and your surroundings to make the right decicion that suits you best. And you will be immune to any aspects of social engineering that you dont agree with or avoid being an antisocial weirdo by keeping your respectable place within societey (as much as you might wanna kill everyone around you for their brainwashed stupidity or whatever, society still has its perks and gaining a bit of wisdom from someone while sharing it with someone else can end up working out better than you expected.

So use your brains people, keep your mind open to new ideas, and always prepare to learn something new that may change or destroy everything you believed which is the hard part. If you can learn to accept that your strongest ideas and beliefs could turn out to be lies or your own ignorance, no amount of social engineering can brainwash you as that brainwashing will find no permenant place in such an open and skeptical mind.

Quote: "I heard that they even have a cure for cancer, but BIG Pharma won't let it get passed! Also Robobama is quite literally programmed to do whatever these big corporations say, because they're the ones who built him!"

There are definatley new advanced and efficient ways to treat cancer that might as well be good enough to be called a cure. Proboly more than 1.
I remember a particular story in the Russian news 2 years ago. A scientist developed a treatment for cancer that was supposed to be near 100% effective. He built a mashine that shoots microscopic laser particles that are callibrated to the frequencey of cancerous cells in your body thus destroying cancer tissue while passing through the rest of your body without consequence. This mashine was infact tested with volonteer cancer patients and proven to be sucessfull. He started offering his invention to cancer clinics all over the country, yet not a single one accepted. He couldnt find anyone who would buy his invention or even agree to mass produce it making the equipment cheap and affortable to everyone. An administrator of one of the private clinics he offered it to, admitted that their clinic specialises in tumbor surgery and chemo-therapy and the new innovation would run them out of business and cause their medical/diagnostic specialists to loose their jobs as the new laser mashine makes their jobs obsolite. Even the government run medical centers didnt want it for the fear that the the invention might provoke the government to cut funding to their clinic or cancer research programs.

The inventor eventually took his mashine and moved out of Russia trying his luck in other european countries. Altho i never heard of what ever happened to him. I wouldnt be surprised if the patent for his technology was ripped away from him by some large medicare or pharmasutical company via lawsuits and army of corporate lawyers as cancer treatment these days is a pricey luxury and a lot of money is being made out of using costly outdated and inefficient methods making the people who are desperate enough to pay for the extra session of chemo. Still, there are tons of similar stories about great ideas being supressed because they are a threat to profit.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Thraxas
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Feb 2006
Location: The Avenging Axe, Turai
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 11:41 Edited at: 19th Sep 2012 13:52
Can I just say as a teacher that I am highly offended by the comments in this thread! I simply can't put into words how wrong you are! I will try to stay within the AUP guidelines with my response...

It seems to me that many of you have absolutely no idea what goes on in the current education systems or you are so caught up in how you were taught at school that you think what happened when YOU were at school happens today or simply that you went to terrible schools.

Quote: " It worries me that children are not taught to think critically, nor taught the first thing about politics and how it affects their daily lives. Schools are so obsessed with drumming facts and figures into the minds of children that they completely neglect the power of thought itself."


Everything about this is incorrect. Critical thinking is taught in schools. It has been taught to any student in my class since 2004 (when I became qualified) and it was taught many, many years before then. Politics is taught in schools. Teaching facts and figures is NOT what is deemed important in education, in fact teaching students to think for themselves and how to find out information for themselves is one of the most important things we do. Facts and figures are like trivia, it's not deemed important.


Quote: "I despise the idea that some are born more intelligent than others; there may be some minor differences, and in some cases disabilities that restrict brain function, but the difference is usually negligible. There's no reason why someone smart enough to become a mechanic is not smart enough to engage in intellectual debate. The fault is that of the teacher not the student. So many people are discarded as "inferior" at such a young age, simply because they didn't catch on to one aspect of learning as quickly as the rest, or because they were unlucky enough to have a bad teacher."


Some children are born more intelligent than others. FACT. I have a student in class with an intellectual impairment (note this does not mean retarded, i hate this word but use it here to make a point), he is not as intelligent as the others in my class. He NEVER will be. He will always be behind. All you have shown in your example, is that you yourself have a biased attitude to what is deemed intelligence. You have said in your statement, whether or not you intended to, is that mechanics are unintelligent so they became a mechanic because "that's all they can do". That's what I read from that sentence, that YOU think a mechanic is unintelligent. SO who else in unintelligent in your mind? Postmen, Garbage collectors, Store workers???? They have those careers because they are not intelligent? What nonsense. My cousin is a very intelligent man, he is also a mechanic. Not because he did badly academically but because... dun dun dah... he LOVES cars. Oh what a strange idea that someone might choose their profession not based on what you (or society) deem as intelligence but because they want to work in a field they enjoy!

But hey let's not forget if someone doesn't learn well that it's definitely their teachers fault. A teacher only has one student to work with and can spend their time wholly serving that one student. Oh hang on, that's not right, a teacher might have 30 kids in their class. Who's responsible for the education of those other 29 students. WHAT!!! That same teacher... and they only have 5 hours in a school day to do everything for everyone??? Stupid teachers. It's a shame that these kids don't have anyone else in their life who could help with their education. Those stupid teachers do parent/teacher interviews, report cards, phone calls home. If they spent less of their own free time (and yes I'd like to point out now to all the smartass people that say I get paid to do a job, that I only get paid for the 5 hours a day the kids at school... so the other 5 or so hours a day or more I work are unpaid and so my 'free time', how many other jobs have so much unpaid overtime?????????) thinking up better ways to educate we wouldn't have any problems. How about, and this is a funny notion I know, that when a teacher says have you thought about getting your child's hearing/sight testing that the parent just does it. A child who can't see properly or hear properly can't learn effectively. Yes this is definitely the fault of a bad teachers. We should be Optometrists and hearing specialists too!!!! If only teachers gave feedback to parents about how their child is travelling at school, they could use that information before it's too late!!!! Stupid teachers. Overpaid and underworked. We get far too many holidays, in which we do nothing but laze about in the sun. All that lesson planning, unit planning, creating of resources, that all gets done by the magic school faries! It's so nice that they do all that work for us so we can lounge about the pool sipping cocktails laughing at how easy we have it, and how everyone respects us and our career.

Also I hate the phrase bad teacher, do you any of you who throw the words around so easily have any idea at all about what it is like to teach. Do you know anything about the theories behind education? Clearly not when you say things like " I honestly don't believe that childhood is the best time for a lot of people to learn". Please show me your research which backs this up. Can you? Beacuse, if you like, I can show you all the literature which tells you why it exactly is the best time to learn. It has to do with brain development, but I'm sure your research will enlighten me as to why it's all wrong. There are bad teachers, but they way you describe it's all bad teachers.


Quote: "I find I'm much more interested in learning now than I ever was at school"


Now is this learning in general or learning about topics that interest you? Because if it is the latter then you've merely proved the point that people in general are more eager to learn about things that interest them. Just like the students at school who have subjects they prefer and do better in because it interests them. Unfortunately all they're learning at school is facts and figures though! I know this because you told me!


Quote: "I barley passed every year of high school with D- grades. and i would certainly fail for the year, if the fear of staying back didnt give me sudden motivation making my last major assigments of the year the most high quality work i ever did."


What I read here, is that you were capable of doing fantastic work, but chose not to. Teachers don't make up mental disorders! Seriously! IF your teachers thought you had ADHD then you must have been an absolute nightmare in the classroom. Reading that makes me think you are a lazy individual who didn't want to work at school, made your teachers life hell and then got upset when they didn't treat you with any respect. How much respect did you show them? You only get what you give! Seems like a lot of wasted potential if you ask me. All this proves that when you wanted to you could do great work, but you didn't want to. You lacked motivation. But that's the teachers fault because they didn't motivate you, what a terrible teacher. Poor you.

Now I'm going to write something here that you may or may not disagree with but it is true. A TEACHER CANNOT MAKE A STUDENT LEARN. All a teacher can do is create an environment in which learning can occur. If a student doesn't want to learn, then a teacher can do nothing. It's never the students fault, though, it's always the teacher who is to blame.

All of you who dismiss teachers so readily and easily. I, honestly and truly, believe that you couldn't do my job for a week. Not one single week. And if any of you would like to prove me wrong, I'd be more than willing to set it up with my school to let you come in and prove me wrong. Put your money where your mouth is.

Or maybe, just maybe, instead of talking absolute trash, why don't you do some research about education and education systems. Then come here and back up your statements.

Don't take me as saying the education system is perfect. It's not. However, it's certainly not as awful as you point out!

Green Gandalf
VIP Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jan 2005
Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 13:00
I agree with most of what you've just said. However, this statement seems to be a misrepresentation of what was said:

Quote: "You have said in your statement, whether or not you intended to, is that mechanics are unintelligent so they became a mechanic because "that's all they can do". That's what I read from that sentence, that YOU think a mechanic is unintelligent."


I thought he was saying the opposite.
Thraxas
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Feb 2006
Location: The Avenging Axe, Turai
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 13:50
"There's no reason why someone smart enough to become a mechanic is not smart enough to engage in intellectual debate."

Even though he says 'smart enough to be a mechanic' and shows he values that being a mechanic requires intelligence, I felt the second part of the sentence destroys that by implying that mechanics couldn't/don't engage in intellectual debate. Perhaps that's not what he meant but that's the way I interpreted it.

nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 14:06
@Thraxas:
I thought Obese meant schools and not teachers in this statement:
Quote: "Schools are so obsessed with drumming facts and figures into the minds of children that they completely neglect the power of thought itself"

I don't blame teachers since most of them are decent. Well, most of mine were. Like people in any other profession, you get good teachers, bad teachers, mediocre teachers and teacher you can't really measure. My gripe is purely with the role politics played in my life at school. I took History as a final subject and was (now wait for the pun) subjected to propaganda which oozed its toxic sludge from my text books. I had a wonderful history teacher and she would sit there, read a paragraph from the book and then go through all the inaccuracies with us. She made a point of encouraging us to do our own research and formulate our own opinions (which resulted in a lot of homework). Quite often she insisted we do research assignments ahead of our syllabus to ensure that we had conducted our own research before becoming biased by those filthy text-books. Oh dear, now I'm bordering on AUP violation too (Just let's give this thread a little lee-way since we're all adults here and none of us will make this a flame war).
It is not the fault of teachers - for whom I have a great deal of respect - but rather the education department/government's fault. I cannot speak for the USA with absolute conviction so far as propaganda in school is concerned (though I see much evidence to suggest the use of social engineering globally) but in my country we were taught that essentially the ANC was the only reason apartheid ended. No mention of the international pressure placed upon South Africa, no mention of many English people and Afrikaners who helped the ANC. Best of all, is the fact that our history books speak predominantly of the massacre of innocent natives in townships while remaining tight-lipped about how the ANC and others conducted terrorist activities that claimed the lives of many innocent Englishmen and Afrikaners. History is written by the winners.

Quote: "The whole idea of social engineering involves the teaching of obedience to authority and apathy to all other life on the planet"

I did not mean that all teachers propagate this - though a few do. I was actually saying, in response to Obese's comment, that the education system is not solely responsible. That our whole society is to blame - implied in the rest of the post.

ionstream
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2004
Location: Overweb
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 21:27
Thank you Thraxas.

Here's a thought, nonZero, obese, and pagan - what if you've been manipulated into thinking that the world is corrupt and society is all wrong? What if your desire to not look naive in front of your peers and to appear intellectual and discerning has caused to you delude yourselves into being paranoid pessimists - you assume the worst so that you can protect yourself against whatever bad truths you may find out, and pass it off because you assumed it was true anyways? This way you can talk about something you have no knowledge of whatsoever, take the position that it's corrupt and destroyed, and then when people with experience tell you otherwise, you can simply deny their claims for being a jaded, manipulated product of the corrupt system?

Maybe assuming the worst makes you just as naive as people who assume the best.

Matty H
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Oct 2008
Location: England
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 22:56 Edited at: 19th Sep 2012 22:57
@Thraxas - I think you took Obese87's comments very personally.

I'm not sure where you are from but where I live(England) the education system is in a bad state at the moment. As Obese87 was pointing out, children are taught to the test, the various exam bodies have been in a constant race to the bottom by making exams easier and more attractive to schools who are in turn worried about league tables.

My nephews teachers changed exam board on him twice in the two years he spent studying his mathematics GCSE. This was because they were not hitting the targets they were expecting to achieve. He actually had a good result from his modules going into the final year and they changed exam board and they counted for nothing.

I have my own gripes with the same school which I wont go into(religious topic).

That said, there are some teachers who had a big influence on my life and I am forever in debt to them, it's the kind of thing you don't realise at the time.

Not sure if anyone has said a bad word against teachers in this thread, I could be wrong.

nonZero
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 22:57
Quote: "Maybe assuming the worst makes you just as naive as people who assume the best."

Quite possibly Maybe the great conspiracy is to overthrow the governments of the world with conspiracy nut-jobs as the pawns.

Which is why I only comment on observations I have made based on my own experiences and the behavior patterns of society as a whole. I look at the evidence and draw rational conclusions. In the case of my history text-books, there was no other explanation for the omissions but a biased system. In the case of society as a whole, it is patently obvious...Of course maybe I'm just trying to be fashionable by talking about social engineering

In the end there is no truth, only perception. The man talking to his cat is obviously insane until the cat talks back. Then the question becomes "Was the man sane all along or has everybody else gone insane too?"

<insert ominous music>

xplosys
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 23:06 Edited at: 19th Sep 2012 23:08
I don't recall who said it first, but....

"It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you."

Brian.

EDIT: Emotie added for clarity.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 19th Sep 2012 23:46 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 00:29
@ Thraxas: I cant speak for myself about going to a terrible school since i went to a vocational school and the education there is different from a regular high school so i cant really compare, but like you said there are apperentley terrible schools out there, a friend of mine dropped out of high school during his junior year and he was a good student, he just couldnt stand the school he went to. He claimed that the school was opressing the students treating them all like potential criminals. Also, that school has history of student suicides and by history, i mean every year a student there committed a suicide, in 2007 there were even 2 suicides one of the guys i knew, He wasnt a close friend but we still had friendly relations. And the suicide thing in that particular school was going on for a while as my older cousin who went to that school too, hated its guts and also admitted that he almost committed suicide (his parents managed to stop him) After that the school administration, expelled him from school based on a rumour they heard about him.
The vocational school i went to, had awesome teachers, stimulating atmosphere, and was really great place, in fact i wanted to fail the 12th grade so i could repeat the year again, Graduation for me was kindof depressing as i had to leave the place i loved.

and btw, i remember now, i was told that had ADD not ADHD, not that i cared about it (personally i dont consider ADD a disorder, to me it just seemed like a normal way any persons brain would react to a subject that does not interest them). I was not a nuciance in class, infact quite opposite, i constantly slept through all the boring classes and even earned a reputation as "the guy who always sleeps in class" lol. Basically if the subject was something that was boaring like trigonometry or english, I will just shut down. I couldnt comprehend advanced math stuff anyway. History and biology however, were very interesting so i had easy time keeping focus in those classes.

Btw, i have nothing against teachers, My grandma was a school teacher and she would often tell me about how hard her job was, so i have some idea what its like to be a teacher. Alsom the programming teacher in my high school was like second father to everyone in the class, (he even helped me to fill out my tax return forms and insurance papers correctley as at the time i had noone who would help me with them and i had no idea how to do them correctly lol)


Quote: "What I read here, is that you were capable of doing fantastic work, but chose not to. Teachers don't make up mental disorders! Seriously! IF your teachers thought you had ADHD then you must have been an absolute nightmare in the classroom. Reading that makes me think you are a lazy individual who didn't want to work at school, made your teachers life hell and then got upset when they didn't treat you with any respect. How much respect did you show them? You only get what you give! Seems like a lot of wasted potential if you ask me. All this proves that when you wanted to you could do great work, but you didn't want to. You lacked motivation. But that's the teachers fault because they didn't motivate you, what a terrible teacher. Poor you."


hold on a second! where did that assumption just come from? You are correct about me being a lazy individual, I knew perfectley well that i was failing my classes and i was quite aware that its noones fault but mine. And for the record I dont have ADHD, i meant to say ADD, thats what the teachers said i had. Anyway, no i did not cause distruptions in class, The single most disrespectful thing i did to my teachers is fall asleep in their class sometimes, but it seemes to be a problem i always had since kindergarden. I respected my teachers a lot even tho i sometimes failed to show that respect, but i blame noone but myself, and dont see how my lack of motivation would be their fault.

No hard feelings tho, i can see where that assumption may come from, Students often want to blame their teachers for stuff, Ive heard my classmates complain about their teachers, but i assure you i am not that kind of person.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 00:25
@Thraxas
I have to apologise for the tone of my previous post. I was wrong to attack teachers, they are not the problem and most do very well with the restrictions they have to work within. You are right, I did project my own personal experience onto my argument and that was wrong of me. My concern is with the public attitude towards learning and the political nature of the education system.

Quote: "Some children are born more intelligent than others. FACT. I have a student in class with an intellectual impairment..."

I did clarify my statement by saying "...there may be some minor differences, and in some cases disabilities that restrict brain function, but the difference is usually negligible.", I'm not denying that mental disability exists but I do believe that the disparity between levels of intelligence is often exaggerated.

Quote: "You have said in your statement, whether or not you intended to, is that mechanics are unintelligent..."

This is a misinterpretation, but I can see how it was made since I squashed two different points together. Reading the mechanic sentence on its own shows my intended meaning: "There's no reason why someone smart enough to become a mechanic is not smart enough to engage in intellectual debate.", I'm saying the exact opposite of what you imply: that a mechanic is just as intelligent as an academic. People who go into trades are in my experience those who despite being intelligent did not achieve academically; so any academic failure is down to a lack of interest and/or poor teaching, not a lack of intelligence.

Quote: "Teachers don't make up mental disorders! Seriously! IF your teachers thought you had ADHD then you must have been an absolute nightmare in the classroom. "

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. Disorders like ADHD are over-diagnosed: it's easier to pin a label on a "problem child" as an excuse rather than actually investigating the reason they are not engaged in class. I too was diagnosed with a form of ADD: I acted up because I was ahead of the rest of the class. If the eight-year-old me was more articulate and politically aware, I could have raised my concerns and possibly been moved up a year, but I think it's irresponsible and unrealistic to place the burden of action on the child in such circumstances.

Quote: "Reading that makes me think you are a lazy individual who didn't want to work at school, made your teachers life hell and then got upset when they didn't treat you with any respect. How much respect did you show them? You only get what you give!"

Again it must be asked "what is causing this behaviour?" and not prejudge the child. If the child's behaviour is undesirable then isn't it the teacher's job to deal with that behaviour and try to correct it, not to engage in the same petty behaviour by shutting them out and/or labelling them as "defective"? Teachers should be held to a higher standard than their pupils.

Children in the western world (myself included) are spoiled little brats: they hate school and think of learning as boring. What the hell happened!? Look at kids in poor countries who are eager to learn and will run miles to school every day if it's the only way they can get in on time. Learning is the most exciting thing a person can do and it pains me to see people turned off by the mere mention that something could be EDUCATIONAL.

Of course the attitude of children needs to change but it's not fair to judge them for behaviour they've learned from others or picked up as a fact of the society we live in. I was stupid to let that idea create a false dichotomy against teachers, and that's not even a belief I have it just came out that way in my writing. Children and teachers are both products of society and that's what needs to change.

Shh... you're pretty.
PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 00:33 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 00:51
@ ionsteam:
Quote: "Here's a thought, nonZero, obese, and pagan - what if you've been manipulated into thinking that the world is corrupt and society is all wrong? What if your desire to not look naive in front of your peers and to appear intellectual and discerning has caused to you delude yourselves into being paranoid pessimists - you assume the worst so that you can protect yourself against whatever bad truths you may find out, and pass it off because you assumed it was true anyways? This way you can talk about something you have no knowledge of whatsoever, take the position that it's corrupt and destroyed, and then when people with experience tell you otherwise, you can simply deny their claims for being a jaded, manipulated product of the corrupt system?"


Anything is possible i guess, but the more i look at the issues like corruption, failing education systems (if you think US and UK education system is failing? well just wait till i tell you guys about what happened to russian education system in the last 2 years, its completley ridiculous) Anyway, these issues like corruption failing economy, wars usually spark outrage from the people. Well, i think all of it is normal, There was always corruption in governments. and there was always manipulation of finacial systems, and wars, and its all normal, Usually this kind of stuff was kept hidden from the general public, but now that the public is aware of the corrupt and powerhungry system and their unethcal and inhumane ways of operating around the world, they want someone to blame.

But honestley, i am not trying to make myself look like some intellectual wannabe, or a conspiracy nut,i am not qualified enough to even talk about this stuff because i dont know a lot of the details, Some of the sourses i got my info from may have been someones propoganda, and the so called facts may just be someones fabrication, but. i am just genuanley interested in how the mechanics of the world power works. Altho, it left me with more questions than answers. but its ok, someday something will happen that will prove everything i believe in to be false, and ill be fine with it.

Quote: "Again it must be asked "what is causing this behaviour?" and not prejudge the child. If the child's behaviour is undesirable then isn't it the teacher's job to deal with that behaviour and try to correct it, not to engage in the same petty behaviour by shutting them out and/or labelling them as "defective"? Teachers should be held to a higher standard than their pupils.

Children in the western world (myself included) are spoiled little brats: they hate school and think of learning as boring. What the hell happened!? Look at kids in poor countries who are eager to learn and will run miles to school every day if it's the only way they can get in on time. Learning is the most exciting thing a person can do and it pains me to see people turned off by the mere mention that something could be EDUCATIONAL.

Of course the attitude of children needs to change but it's not fair to judge them for behaviour they've learned from others or picked up as a fact of the society we live in. I was stupid to let that idea create a false dichotomy against teachers, and that's not even a belief I have it just came out that way in my writing. Children and teachers are both products of society and that's what needs to change."


ok he is right about the Lazy part, but i never had behavioral problems, I was always a very calm child, the thing about ADHD i said before was a mixup, i meant ADD, i dont even believe in them being actual conditions so i dont care, i realize however that mistake i made quickly created a whole different picture of me as a lazy loud annoying hyperactive brat. I assure you i am none of those. I never hated school (the high school at least), infact i loved it. Yes, i got bored with some of the subjects, but can anyone honestley say they didnt have a single subject in school that they hated or got bored with? i am yet to meed a highschool-aged person who studies every subject with unparalell enthusiasm. and dedicates all their free time to studying. Yes i hated trigonometry, but that dosent mean i hated all other subjets too.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 02:18
@ionstream

I realise that I don't know enough about the education system to suggest reforms. It was rash of me to make broad assertions when I only have personal experience and a few conversations with a teacher I used to live with to go by, but understand that I'm venting my frustrations at what I perceive to be a failing system. I don't expect to appear as an authority and I value the opinions of people like Thraxas who work in the education system, and I would like to hear more from people who have experience in education about what problems they see in schools and society at large that could be improved.

I'm not a pessimist, I'm just frustrated because I see so much potential for things to be better than they are.

Shh... you're pretty.
rolfy
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jun 2006
Location:
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 02:33 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 04:28
Quote: "People who go into trades are in my experience those who despite being intelligent did not achieve academically; so any academic failure is down to a lack of interest and/or poor teaching, not a lack of intelligenc"

I have no idea what you people are talking about.......the mere fact that qualifications are required to even enroll in an apprenticeship (at least im my day), followed up with 4years of probably day release at college to gain city and guilds certificate, HND.HNC or equivalent, or probably associates degree in States also with further full degree courses for many trades. Says this belief is total nonsense much like most of the tin pot philosophy about social engineering being spouted in this thread.
Never seen such a lot of rubbish being spoken outside of the pub.

This whole thread is prolly the reason its against the AUP to get into politics, nothing to do with flaming ....just the cringe inducing opinions that get thrown around.

I have been a teacher in Secondary schools and Colleges, taught children with learning difficulties and adult training groups for special needs and mental health groups.... been there done that....one was no more difficult than the other though some were more rewarding, which brings me to the point below...

If your going to be really disrespectful and sleep your way through classes that dont suit you, maybe you should simply be diagnosed with terminal disinterest, personally I lose interest when you think you prove how smart you are by waking up at the last minute and proving everyone wrong about your 'intelligence', your intelligence was never in doubt by these teachers you had, they simply hung a label on you so they could deal with ignoring you, as you were them. I am willing to bet you never thought of it from the teachers point of view.



Edit* The quote above is not responsible for my entire rant and not to be taken personally (you can if you like) its just one example of some of the uninformed garbage being spoken by many in here.

You only have one life ... Abuse it well.
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 04:40 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 04:50
Quote: "I have no idea what you people are talking about.......the mere fact that qualifications are required to even enrol in an apprenticeship (at least im my day) followed up with 4 years of probably day release at college to gain city and guilds certificate, HND.HNC or equivalent, or probably associates degree in States also with further full degree courses for many trades says this belief is total nonsense much like most of the tin pot philosophy about social engineering being spouted in this thread."

I didn't say there's no studying involved in becoming qualified in a trade; I said the people I know who work in trades didn't excel at school. For some reason they were disinterested: you seem to believe there's no solution to this and they should be slung on the academic scrap heap.
Quote: ""...they simply hung a label on you so they could deal with ignoring you, as you were them.""

That's a terrible attitude. We're talking about the behaviour of young children here, teachers should be held to a higher standard. Maybe parents don't listen or there isn't enough support for teachers, or this is a deeper issue with society but ignoring the child doesn't help anyone.

Quote: "Never seen such a lot of rubbish being spoken outside of the pub... uninformed garbage being spoken by many in here."

Isn't it just as well that we're talking about it if we have such deluded ideas? I don't mean to rile anyone up, and if I'm being ignorant then I'll happily accept being corrected.

*Edit: I do feel like I've been giving a lot of uninformed opinions on here (and gotten caught up in defending them with more uninformed opinions) and now I feel quite stupid. While I don't agree with everything that Thraxas and Rolfy have said I'm not in a position to argue without evidence, so I'm going to back out of this discussion.

Shh... you're pretty.
PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 04:44
@ rolfy: Well, recentley after my medical checkup, they told me that my sleeping problem might actually be something. One thing i have noticed over the years is that i tend to have more energy at night time than during the day despite my sleep schedule. They told me it might be something to do with my intermal body clock, something to do with the time of the day i was born, i dont know that since i was adopted so i cant say if thats true or not.
Also nighttime air is generally cleaner since there are almost no cars or other waste emmissions into the atmosphere. I think that might explain my increased energy during night time which then results in throwing off my sleep schedule.

But the reason i often fell asleep in class, i noticed that classes are very exhausting on my brain. and i guess by the middle of the day, my brain feels so exhausted that it shuts down causing me to fall asleep. And before you say that i am a lazy waste of space and what could possibly exhaust my brain since i am not doing anything anyway but sleep, Ill tell you that despite me being a lazy waste of space i actually tried to put extra effort into the classes since class time was the only saftey i had from completley failing the school year. the Ds and Fs i mentioned are for the most part due to late or missing homework assigment and failing test grades. class participation just barley kept my average below failing. And i didnt fail all of my classes, i got As and Bs in history, Cs, Bs in biology, literature classes went well for me (i dont remeber what i got for them). I only flunked chemistry, almost flunked 2 years of algebra, and managed to switch out of trigonometry before i could flunk that class taking instead a class called business math (a math class replacement for the dumbest of the kids in our school who like me wont survive trigonometry.) i apologise to all the teachers here, but take my word for it when i say the trigonometry teacher was actually bad at teaching. as much as i was bad at algebra, the algebra teacher could explain to me the priniples of quadratic equasion so they would actually stay in my head for some time. The trigonometry teacher didnt even bother to explain the procedure of solving his equasions, he assumed that we all passed calculous with flying colors, even tho half of the class never even took calculous and was put in trig straight out of algebra 2. And when we managed to get him to explain how something worked (not just me other students said the same) he just couldnt explain it in a way we understand. The trig teacher was pretty much a genious at what he did and was a good guy, i had nothing against him but me and several other students just couldnt get on the same level of comprehending the subject. His boaring monotonous voice didnt help matter.
I also failed Chemistry which falls into the category of subjects that revolve around comlex systems and laws which i am generally bad at. Infact it kinda runs in the family, my Grandma and my aunt both failed chemistry in their day.

I am not really trying to prove anything, and i am certainly not in a position to brag about my intelligence, Yes i could have done better in school if i really put more effort into it, unfourtunatley, i dont seem to have the willpower to beat my laziness which is my biggest problem. This also results in people kicking me to do something they need me to do as i tend to get stuff done only when i hit critical deadlines.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
rolfy
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jun 2006
Location:
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 05:00 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 08:15
Quote: "I didn't say there's no studying involved in becoming qualified in a trade; I said the people I know who work in trades didn't excel at school. For some reason they were disinterested: you seem to believe there's no solution to this and they should be slung on the academic scrap heap."

You miss the point I was making....at least when I served an apprenticeship...yeah I got a trade too, I am old. You started your apprenticeship when you left school, a minimum of four 'o' levels required, including English and an appropriate science or tech qualification. The reason for this is the courses you take at college require them for entry, most start an apprenticeship at 16yrs so they must have been doing just fine academically.

Quote: "That's a terrible attitude. We're talking about the behaviour of young children here, teachers should be held to a higher standard. Maybe parents don't listen or there isn't enough support for teachers, or this is a deeper issue with society but ignoring the child doesn't help anyone."

Again you miss the point....and you try to make me look like an ogre in the process.....

Quote: "ok he is right about the Lazy part, but i never had behavioral problems, I was always a very calm child, the thing about ADHD i said before was a mixup, i meant ADD, i dont even believe in them being actual conditions so i dont care, i realize however that mistake i made quickly created a whole different picture of me as a lazy loud annoying hyperactive brat. I assure you i am none of those."

I was simply telling him how they dealt with it, lets be honest at the time he himself has believed he was just being lazy...whatever diagnosis (which he doesn't believe exist anyhow) he has now, it comes across as bragging when you tell people how you went on to be smart 'despite poor teachers' and if a child has difficulties then sure I am willing to go the extra yard (you did notice I worked with children with leaning difficulties?) I was a damn good teacher with a good reputation for working with difficult groups. You both angered me with your generalizations and your complete lack of respect for what is a very difficult job, I quit it when I started to realize I was becoming a grumpy old sod and no longer fit for duty, felt I was walking on eggshells sometimes, all the fire went out in me and it stopped being fun.

Oh! and its not a teachers job to diagnose any kind of illness, your parents should have made you see a doctor if you were constantly falling asleep and your education was suffering. You seem to sway from doing well in some subjects and blaming poor teaching as the reason for failing others and then saying you suffer from illness, are you sure your not passing the blame for your disinterest?
Not everyone is good or even interested in all subjects and of course they may even bore you to sleep but don't blame teachers for this they are as subject to the system of education as you are, personally I would rather see business removed from education as it is not a good mix, further education should be free for those that want it and not dictated financially, that is why its became the treadmill it has for both students and teachers.

I was lucky in the sense that I did an 'out of the box' job and was able to design my own workshops and could make classes more interesting, I always got a good response to this and never had anyone nod off on me, I sometimes think that it would be better for all teachers to able to do this but then you would have no kind of standard to grade with and that's the whole point when you present your qualifications to Universities/colleges and employers..would sort the chaff from the wheat though where teachers are concerned...there are good and bad but don't tar them all with the same brush.
If you have problems in school and cant keep up with the rest you may well have found yourself with someone like me (not as bad as it sounds), your assertion that I don't hold to higher standards is completely unfounded and even less so with teachers who have a hard enough job teaching those who are capable, you cant hold back everyone for individuals its just not possible, the best they can do is recommend remedial tutoring.

Quote: "I do feel like I've been giving a lot of uninformed opinions on here (and gotten caught up in defending them with more uninformed opinions"

It may surprise you to know I don't disagree with everything you say.

You only have one life ... Abuse it well.
DeadTomGC
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Aug 2010
Location: LU
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 08:17
@OBese87 Weird, I thought I already responded to your post about my quoting Charlie Chapman out of context.

Yes, I did take it out of context, but I did so intentionally. My point is essentially the same as the point of any rebellious group (Including America). When the government is has become tyrannical or has taken away our liberty, it is our duty to take whatever actions are necessary to replace that old government with a new and more perfect one.


PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 09:17 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 09:18
@ rolfy:
i dint say i had any illnesses, i was just sharing my own speculation about reasons i often dozed off in class, Yes i agree that falling asleep in class is very rude and i payed for it, students would toss stuff at me when i dozed off and it was mildly humiliating sometimes, i got kicked out of class a few times for it too.
And i dont remember saying anything about blaming any teachers for my problems, where did that come from anyway? If you are refferring to my trigonometry teacher and my failure to understand his explanations on how to solve equasions, Perhaps i wasnt prepaired for a class this advanced perequisites of which was at least algebra 2 which i barley managed to pass. Do you think a trigonometry teacher should waste his time reteaching his students basic concepts of algebra?

Ok so i made it sound like i was blaming my trig teacher. If that what i offended you with, Well i take that back as you made me think a bit realising that it is really not his responsibility to cach me up on stuff i should have knew already. But besides that, i never blamed any of my other teachers as i had a lot of respect for them. Yes its disrespectful and hypocrytic of me to say this when i fall asleep during class, I certainly never blamed any of them my own failures. Even if i didnt like them for some reason, i dont see what i could blame them for. especially since pretty much all of them are reasonable enough to give me and other students who were failing their classes, chance to get their grade average up. Stuff like extra credit assigments or chances to retake failed tests (with a penalty of course, your retake score would be averaged with the failed test score pretty clever eh?)
I am not sure what part of what i said sounded like bragging. I know i was not a good student 3 years ago but you seem to really dislike me because of it. and i am trobled that exxaderated assumptions about me based on something i said. I am not trying to provoke any arguments. As silly as it sounds right now, i dint want you to hold any ill will against me for what said, I wasnt trying to prove anything, just decided to share my experience of what high school was like for me and maybe enjoy some nostalgia for the place because at that time when i wasnt sleeping in class i enjoyed being in my school it and feel very happy for the 4 years spent there.
And i respect your career choice of becoming a teacher and helping the people whi actually need help. You could have easily chosen a different career path that payed you more money. so if you are still angry with me. i never thought anything i said could be enterperted in an offensive way, i certainly had no plans to start any argument, its just that suddenley my slip of thought i never bothered to correct before posting was used to make unpleasant judgments about me while partially true. got rather ridiculous when it started to make me look like a a-hole from your point of view while i was trying to fugure out what caused this. So i would rather not have a fellow forum member have any ill will against me, as i dont have any against you.

and btw

Quote: "I would rather see business removed from education as it is not a good mix, further education should be free for those that want it and not dictated financially, that is why its became the treadmill it has for both students and teachers. "


I definatley agree with this.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
rolfy
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jun 2006
Location:
Posted: 20th Sep 2012 09:34 Edited at: 20th Sep 2012 10:30
When replying to two people at once and also its a response to many of the posts on here things are bound to get confusing and wires get crossed, of course I am not trying to patronize you and I bear no ill will toward anyone. If I were to quote all the stupid statements made in this thread it would require a thread of its own and there are a few even dafter ones.
No need to think I lost out on anything either, tutoring was only part of what I did at that time and I had my own business involving me in many cool things too, in fact it was my skills in other areas that landed me teaching jobs in the first place, funnily enough I was regarded as a 'professional' rather than a teacher, ironic as I just made most of it up as I went along, methods were up to myself as long as I produced desired results and didn't beat them too hard, JK plus teaching is a profession anyhow.

The only thing that really annoyed me was the idea that was first expounded regarding teachers, that is, if you don't learn for whatever reason then blame guess who? I have tutored many kids who through no fault of their own were held back (most of them came from real deprived backgrounds) so its a touchy area for me.

Again don't take everything I said as solely aimed at you or OBese87 it was just a rant that didn't quite cover all the stupid comments made in here (not just education)..some of which I wouldn't even bother to rise to.

Having said that there are also some gems of wisdom being put out here and both of you have also made some of those, so don't take it too personal if I strongly disagree with one or two them.

You only have one life ... Abuse it well.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-05-20 21:14:40
Your offset time is: 2025-05-20 21:14:40