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Geek Culture / Special Relativity

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 05:08
Albert Einstein, you say?



Faster-than-light drives, you say?



That's crazy! Every scientist knows that a theory is no good if a child can't understand it. I have the mind of a child, and I can't understand it. The idea that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light is so arbitrary. Why? I guess I'm an idiot. What I should be saying is:

Quote: "Of course! Light only goes as fast as it does because there are invisible traffic cops in the sky who don't allow anything to travel faster than that speed. That makes sense!"


How is Christopher Walken supposed to get back to his people many lightyears away?



The easiest way to get there would be to build an antimatter rocket and constantly accelerate. Is 20 m/s^2 fast enough? According to Albert Einstein, you might get going too fast!

According to me, there is no universal speed limit and Einstein was a crackpot hack.
Kezzla
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 05:48 Edited at: 10th Dec 2012 05:49
I think you should collaborate with Pincho.

you may get an optic boom.

I always liked the idea that since nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, all you need to do is send movement through the medium of nothing and the speed limit is void. travel at the speed of space and leave light behind...

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 06:08
Aw, I was hoping this thread was serious, I just started on special relativity. I also managed to prove that the simple wave equation transforms relativistically. woot.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 14:28
Move space itself! It's not limited

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Matty H
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 16:06
Don't think of it as the speed of light being the barrier, there is a universal speed limit and light just happens to travel at the maximum speed.

The universe is not what it seems to simple creatures like us

As you go faster, time slows down for you, or time speeds up to for everything apart from you, this has been proved many times. When you hit the universal speed limit, time stops for you, while the rest of the universe lives out its whole life in an instant. This is why it makes no sense to be able to travel as fast as light does.

I am remembering much of this, but I'm sure it's pretty accurate

TheComet
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 17:14 Edited at: 10th Dec 2012 17:14
It's also important to realize that the closer you get to the speed of light, the more mass you gain. Einstein's formula is never written complete, this is the complete version:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

TheComet

The Zoq2
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 18:23
So the problem with FTL travel is that you get an infinite mass as well as that from your point of wiew, time will slow down?
The Weeping Corpse
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 18:58
Only if you have mass to begin with. A photon has no mass, so it must always travel at the speed of light.

A space ship made from normal atoms will have an initial mass, the faster it goes the more energy is required to propel it. Any particle that has mass > 0 cannot reach light speed.

Maybe one day we will have the tech and be able to manipulate the higgs field in a local area. Any atoms within such an area could be tricked into a state of 0 mass and would then begin traveling at the speed of light (maybe)

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 19:19
Quote: "o the problem with FTL travel is that you get an infinite mass as well as that from your point of wiew, time will slow down?"

Well, from your point of view time never changes. A watch on your hand, you will always observe to tick at the same rate. Unless, that is, your wrist is flying away from you at close to the speed of light, in which case you have more things to worry about than time. So if from my point of view your spaceship is travelling close to the speed of light, from your point of view, your spaceship isn't moving and I'm the one travelling at the speed of light!

This is the concept of having no true frame of reference (ie, there exists no "ether")

TheComet
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 21:05
Quote: " A photon has no mass"


Then why is it attracted to gravity?

TheComet

Matty H
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 21:10
Quote: "So if from my point of view your spaceship is travelling close to the speed of light, from your point of view, your spaceship isn't moving and I'm the one travelling at the speed of light!"


But if I am the one accelerating away from earth and then back again, it is you who will have aged(maybe by years) while in my time I may have only been away a couple of hours.

I think it has something to do with the acceleration and deceleration which determines who's time slowed, mine in this case.

Matty H
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 21:11
Quote: "Then why is it attracted to gravity?"


Because gravity is not a force as such, it is curved space(time). This is a guess

Libervurto
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 21:20 Edited at: 10th Dec 2012 21:20
Quote: "[A photon has no mass] Then why is it attracted to gravity?"




Shh... you're pretty.
Jimpo
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 22:09
Quote: "Then why is it attracted to gravity?"

Because gravity isn't an attractive force between two masses like Newton guessed. This was a big problem with physics. Our gravity equation was based on the mass of both objects, yet mass-less light bent under gravity. Einstein eventually solved this for us with his theory of general relativity, which says gravity doesn't attract, instead it bends space and time itself.

Physics is a very crazy thing

Phaelax
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 22:23
Quote: "Nothing can travel faster than light, right? To do so would violate the special theory of relativity, which stipulates that you’d need an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a particle with mass to light speed."


So rather than move through space, we bend it around us.

http://techland.time.com/2012/09/19/nasa-actually-working-on-faster-than-light-warp-drive/

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 22:31
Guys, you've got it all wrong. Planets work as giant magnets. Time doesn't slow down around them, cesium particles are simply drawn to them and thus atomic clocks don't work perfectly. Photons have mass, thus they are attracted to planets, yet our instruments are not sensitive enough to detect the mass of photons. Everything works according to Newtonian physics, there are no speed limits in the universe, and going back in time is impossible.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 22:39
Hah! Rabbits can't do physics. QED.

Quote: "But if I am the one accelerating away from earth and then back again, it is you who will have aged(maybe by years) while in my time I may have only been away a couple of hours."

Off-topic. we're talking about special relativity, no accelerating frames of reference allowed

Also an awesome thing I heard: You know in electromagnetism there's the electric and the magnetic fields. I've heard that you can always find a frame in which the magnetic field is zero! Which would mean that the magnetic field is sort-of a special relativistic correction to the standard electric field!

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 22:45
@Neuro Fuzzy-

Quote: "Off-topic. we're talking about special relativity, no accelerating frames of reference allowed"


I wouldn't call that off-topic. It sounds to me like the same nonsensical special relativistic rules that you people claim govern everything. People, time does not slow down when you start moving faster!

Quote: "Also an awesome thing I heard: You know in electromagnetism there's the electric and the magnetic fields. I've heard that you can always find a frame in which the magnetic field is zero! Which would mean that the magnetic field is sort-of a special relativistic correction to the standard electric field!"


AFAIK, electric and magnetic fields are the same thing. To be honest, you've sort of lost me. Electricity doesn't generally move in fields, it moves in currents.
Zotoaster
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 22:59
Quote: "I wouldn't call that off-topic. It sounds to me like the same nonsensical special relativistic rules that you people claim govern everything. People, time does not slow down when you start moving faster!"


Not sure if trolling.. but GPS satellites have to account for time dilation because they're moving ever-so-slightly into the future

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 23:04
@Zotoaster-

No, their timing units move faster because the gravity isn't messing them up as much. Seriously, come to your senses.
Sasuke
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 23:11 Edited at: 10th Dec 2012 23:11
Photon's don't need mass to be affected by gravity because the source of gravity is not mass, it's Energy + Momentum. Also remember that Newtons law is an approximation.
JLMoondog
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 23:24
Read the Ender's Universe books, had some of the better near-FTL logic I've ever read.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 23:58
Quote: "No, their timing units move faster because the gravity isn't messing them up as much. Seriously, come to your senses."


But they're doing it exactly as much as Einstein predicted!

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 00:16
I think it's fair to completely disregard anything that fluffy rabbit says as trolling, considering the content of his first post xD

But I haven't studied electromagnetism (at any deep level) yet, so I can't explain it myself, all I know is that I heard that from a PhD condensed matter physicist so (unless I've misquoted) it's probably true in some sense.

Matty H
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 00:37
Hey Fluffy Rabbit, this is your thread so you can say what you like and good for you

Do you really believe what you are saying?

Einstein discovered energy and mass are equivalent, he realised gravity was curved space-time. He done most of this with just his brain and thousands of experiments have proved what he said to be correct, as well as a few bombs and as someone has mentioned GPS uses his equations to gain accuracy.

Perhaps even his theory is also an approximation, but it will always be useful, just like Newtons approximations still are today.

Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 12:09 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 12:09
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: These are the dark matter engines I invented. They allow my starship to travel between galaxies in mere hours.
Cubert J. Farnsworth: That's impossible. You can't go faster than the speed of light.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Of course not. That's why scientists increased the speed of light in 2208.

Futurama can teach you many things...

Gingerkid Jack - www.youtube.com/thegingerkidjack
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 13:31 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 19:40
Quote: "Every scientist knows that a theory is no good if a child can't understand it."


The universe is a highly complex place and so many things aren't simple and require no simple explanations. Whilst it may be possible to offer a simple explanation but a simple explanation can miss out important details. So many people are interested in the simple explanations and it's no wonder folks have so many misconceptions about science, they've only relied on the simplest explanations. It's kind of like trying to summarise The Lord of the Rings Trilogy in a Tweet.

In regard to Newton, he was a great stepping stone in our understanding of physics, but science itself is progressive, so Newton's work was fantastic, but we know a lot more today than we did back then and we can perform tests he couldn't do back then. And in 100 years, they'll be able to do tests we can't do now. And the more we know about how the universe works, the harder it is to put into simple terms, as I've said, how the universe works is by no means a simple matter. If we've got the finest minds in the world advancing our understanding of the universe everyday, I think it's a bit much to expect it to be simplified to a degree a child could understand.

We don't teach quantum mechanics in primary schools, but we can give them easier principles of science to understand and gradually work their way through the knowledge tree.

Quik
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 17:35
Quote: "It's kind of like trying to summarise The Lord of the Rings Trilogy in a Tweet."


there's a powerfull ring that must be destroyed, a gnome has to do it. Oh and orcs.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 18:53 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 18:58
[pseudo-science]
All forces are actually just aspects of one "universal force". Gravity is a residual amount of energy left over from the strong interaction. But photons can't pull things into them because they have no "anchor", no mass, so they don't really have a fixed position in the universe at all!
Mass is what happens when positively and negatively charged particles are in balance but cannot annihilate each other, like planets in orbit they are stabilized by their attraction to each other but perpetually apart because of their stable paths; so in attempting to annihilate with each other they are inadvertently preserving one another's existence. This is a rare balance so when a photon enters a system it is usually annihilated but this also slightly damages the system.
Speed is defined by resistance, so "light-speed" is actually the default speed of everything before interference, which slows things down. Objects of high mass interfere more because they contain more charged particles that can interact with particles outside of the system. Time appears instantaneous to a photon because it has no "anchor", no mass, no point of reference. The greater mass an object has, the more points of reference it has and therefore time appears slower.
Movement, at the smallest level, is the exchange of charge between particles with positive, negative and neutral charge (those which don't appear to exist). So nothing actually moves, there are no "particles" as such but rather swarms of charge that move across a fixed grid like a cellular autonoma. (Neutrons are just clusters of charged particles that are extremely balanced.)
The spontaneous creation and annihilation of matter can be explained by minute imbalances of charge that pass along the fabric of the universe spreading out and sometimes creating balanced systems that can be observed, but the chance of such small systems surviving for long is very low and they can be disintegrated by a very small number of unbalanced particles.
[/pseudo-science]

Shh... you're pretty.
Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 20:54 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 20:54
After reading this thread, I have reached the conclusion that people on this forum take themselves far too seriously, and I would be better of discussing science elsewhere. If there's one thing to say about all of this, it's that you shouldn't overthink physics. It is what it is, and the more you try to put numbers to it, the the further you get from the beautiful singular harmonic visual truth about everything that you can only experience when you distance yourself from the world and realize that "reality" has a mind of its own. Cellular division, spinning planets, flash mobs, and basketball all look the same and demonstrate the basic principals of motion which we'll never understand.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 21:12 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 21:13
Quote: "and realize that "reality" has a mind of its own."

Yeah, of course. We are the universe observing itself.

May I remind the forum to not feed the troll? He sounds serious here but earlier he was talking about alien Christopher Walken ;D

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 21:40
Quote: "Yeah, of course. We are the universe observing itself."


That makes a lot of sense, except instead of "we" it is "I". What proof have I that you exist? Are you above the level of inanimate objects now? As the mind sees, everything but one's self is on a lower level, contained within. You are just a feature of my reality, and to me you are as predictable as marbles and cells.

Quote: "May I remind the forum to not feed the troll? He sounds serious here but earlier he was talking about alien Christopher Walken ;D"


I happen to be a big fan of Christopher Walken, and the line between serious, humorous, and completely bonkers is very thin. I believe that a sci-fi space adventure starring Mr. Walken would be a big hit, especially if he were a sexy blue alien elf, and had a sexy blue alien elf girlfriend. The movie would both explore simplisticist physics and entertain us with Christopher Walken's hilarious antics, not to mention sex appeal. He should be the nest Luke Skywalken.
Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 21:43 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 22:11
Quote: "people on this forum take themselves far too seriously, and I would be better of discussing science elsewhere."

That's a pretty weak attitude. If a few people don't share your spirit then so what?

Quote: "you shouldn't over-think physics"

Yes you should, it's vital that we over-think physics.

Quote: "It is what it is"

But it isn't, that's the purpose of science.

Quote: "the more you try to put numbers to it, the the further you get from the beautiful singular harmonic visual truth about everything that you can only experience when you distance yourself from the world and realize that "reality" has a mind of its own."

I don't see how anything not based on numbers could possibly be singular. If the method for obtaining a solution is arbitrary then you can obtain an arbitrary number of solutions. One model being more beautiful or harmonious than another proves nothing.

Quote: "the basic principals of motion which we'll never understand"

What prevents us from understanding?

Quote: "What proof have I that you exist?"

What proof have you that YOU exist?
I must exist if I am able to answer the question.
Existence is a pretty empty question because you need to define the thing you are talking about, so really the question should be about the nature of existence.

I can say that I exist and this must be true because I can answer, but what is the nature of "I", the self?

This reminds me of something I was thinking, about numbers. Three is the first real number because it's really the first quantifiable number. Thought experiment:

Think about a universe of nothing, where zero is the only number, well it's not even a number yet because not even the concept of numbers exists, not even the concept of existence exists!
Now into this world comes the number one, like a point of light hovering in nothingness. We can't say where it is or how big it is because there are no reference points. This is the first concept: existence, with one we can say whether something exists or not but no more.
Now we bring in the number two: this is the concept of plurality. We now know that more than one can exist, but it's not really a number, it's just another state of existence than one. If we imagine a second point of light in the void, we can't say how far apart the two points are, or what angle they are at because we have no scale or reference.
Finally with the third point of light we have our number! We can now judge the lengths between points because we have two other lengths to compare with. Numbers are no longer just greater than one, they have a definite value.
If we continue to add points to the system nothing new is added because we already have the reference point we needed.

Shh... you're pretty.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 21:57 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 21:57
Quote: "and to me you are as predictable as marbles and cells."

Alright, then predict what I'm going to say in my next post >b][/b]D

Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 22:07
Quote: "Alright, then predict what I'm going to say in my next post >"

I can't because it would break the AUP.

Shh... you're pretty.
Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 22:15
Quote: "That's a pretty weak attitude. If a few people don't share your spirit then so what?"

Then I'm getting out of here!

Quote: "Yes you should, it's vital that we over-think physics."

The problem with modern rocketry and space travel (I assume that's what you're talking about) is that the scientists do overthink physics. Back in the space race, they'd send anything up I hear. Now, no such luck. Seriously, there is nothing wrong with a Russian multi-stage rocket. It worked back then, and it works now. Any new designs can just stick to the willpower and faith of the old backyard designs of the 50s and 60s.

Quote: "But it isn't, that's the purpose of science."

And that's why I don't like science. Science makes it too hard and unnecessarily complicated, just like you programmer computer types.

Quote: "I don't see how anything not based on numbers could possibly be singular. If the method for obtaining a solution is arbitrary then you can obtain an arbitrary number of solutions. One model being more beautiful or harmonious than another proves nothing."

Proof is not the point. Beauty and art are the point. You can learn as much from watching a pendulum swing back and forth as you can from two hours of science.

Quote: "What prevents us from understanding?"

Lack of observation powers to get it 100% right. We thought we had it right back with Newton, but now all of these naysayers say that Einstein's is better. I still say that Newton's is better, but none of them are perfect. If one is making a game for example, one need not stress over the physics. Of course, all of Newton's simpler rules are easy to implement, but whatever.

Quote: "What proof have you that YOU exist?
I must exist if I am able to answer the question.
Existence is a pretty empty question because you need to define the thing you are talking about, so really the question should be about the nature of existence."

I define existence based on consciousness. It's an arbitrary way of thinking about things, but nonetheless it's the only way I keep my sanity. I rationalize whatever closest resembles consciousness to me and call it thought. Somebody has to think the thoughts, so whoever thinks the thoughts I call "me". "You", on the other hand, may or may not exist, but I sort of have to exist, in order to think. However, I don't know that I'm not thinking for you. I still define parts of the unconscious mind as my own thought, "me". So, even if I had an imaginary friend (assuming I realized it was my imaginary friend), I would consider it not a creation of my imagination but a part of me, perhaps another visual representation of me. On the other hand, if the possibility is still open for an entity to exist outside of my mind in its own right, then it is less likely to exist, because if it is real to others, it does not exist within my mind, and therefore it is not real. What is real is my version of it. If you exist outside of my mind, then my version of you is probably very different from your own version of you. See my point? All I know of you is what I have observed of you, and those observations turn into yet another imaginary friend. When I read your posts, the voice I put in my head is that of a short fat guy like Elmer. No offense.
Sasuke
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 22:33
I'm guessing this thread is going the way of locking so all I'll say is:

Science = Best Guess
Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 22:39
Quote: "I'm guessing this thread is going the way of locking"


Ouch.

Quote: "so all I'll say is:

Science = Best Guess"


Science is the process of essentially making many crappy guesses until the public accepts one or two of them.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 22:48
Quote: "Science is the process of essentially making many crappy guesses until the public accepts one or two of them."

I totally agree: Science is the process of making crappy guesses until you create nuclear fission, save millions of lives with medicines, increase crop yields tenfold, provide lighting, improve public services in every way, and create computers so that stupid people can talk about how stupid science is.

Matty H
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 22:57
What a weird thread

I forgot about something I find very interesting. It's not only light that moves at the speed of light

Everything in the universe moves(through space-time) at the same speed, C.

Some things take up some of their C moving through space and some things may use their C to move through time.

We fall into the category of moving mostly through time, and not much through space while light uses all its C moving through space and does not travel through time. This is why light travels at the universal speed limit, because it uses all its quota of C on travelling through space.

This is completely true and I think it is pretty elegant.

I get most of my information from the book 'why does E=Mc2 and why should we care?' by Brian Cox and some other bloke

Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 23:00 Edited at: 11th Dec 2012 23:11
Quote: "Lack of observation powers to get it 100% right."

We don't need to get it 100% right; we CAN learn from watching a pendulum, but we can learn more if we describe its motion mathematically. Finding new ways to observe and probe nature doesn't make it any less beautiful, some would say it has the opposite effect. In the same way, Einstein didn't make Newton redundant.

Quote: ""You", on the other hand, may or may not exist, but I sort of have to exist, in order to think. However, I don't know that I'm not thinking for you."

I could be a figment of your imagination; maybe you are thinking for me but you are unaware of the thoughts? But then that would suggest your own consciousness is also an illusion and we are all part of one "mind". Either that or you are the only one whom truly exists, which seems statistically improbable.
Maybe we exist in different realities and your perception of me exists in your reality but not mine and vice versa. Our realities could be completely alien to each other but there's no way of telling because there's no reference for either of us and what little relay there is between our realities is distorted as it's transferred from one to the other. In your reality I might well be a short fat man called elmer but in my reality I am tall and thin. Maybe everything we know about the world we live in is a compromise between various forms of reality. Those who fail to make compromises are declared insane!

Quote: "We fall into the category of moving mostly through time, and not much through space while light uses all its C moving through space and does not travel through time. This is why light travels at the universal speed limit, because it uses all its quota of C on travelling through space."

That's interesting because I always rationalised it as mass creates time. Interesting when pseudo-science bumps into real science. So are we slower because we're rolling in the Higgs? Segue


Shh... you're pretty.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Dec 2012 23:54
Quote: "I get most of my information from the book 'why does E=Mc2 and why should we care?' by Brian Cox and some other bloke"

I should read that. I've heard the same from the physicist that does minutephysics.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Dec 2012 10:37
Quote: "Science is the process of essentially making many crappy guesses until the public accepts one or two of them. "


Guess isn't the right word. Though that is a fairly accurate description of pseudo-science.

The only guesses in science are educated guesses and these are called hypotheses, the point then is to test those hypotheses. One shouldn't accept a hypothesis as fact, you would test it and test it and test it and scrutinise it to detail before you can even consider it a theory. Where you find inconsistencies you make adjustments to your theory/hypothesis.

Like with the hadron collider, sure the experiment was successful, but they've got a lot of tests before they will use exact answers instead of screaming, "Yay! The hypothesis was right!". The journalists were kind of doing that, but the sciences wanted to crack on.

Modern science itself has proven itself not only through experimentation but also through practice. We use the modern scientific method for medical science and as a result of our understanding of physics there's a great deal of technology we use that wouldn't function without it, for example, GPS.

I won't deal with pseudoscience because it's often sold like snake oil, the job of pseudoscience to persuade, it never needs any real evidence - it might use circumstantial evidence or play various other tricks to give itself the appearance of authenticity. Some pseudoscience can be pretty damn convincing (seriously, I looked at the website for homeopathy and they've really put the effort in).

Quote: "I define existence based on consciousness. It's an arbitrary way of thinking about things, but nonetheless it's the only way I keep my sanity. I rationalize whatever closest resembles consciousness to me and call it thought. Somebody has to think the thoughts, so whoever thinks the thoughts I call "me". "


Cogito Ergo Sum. (I think therefore I am)

Prolly the only sensible thing I've read from Descartes. Did you know the man used to meditate in an oven? Philosophers are weird people.

Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 12th Dec 2012 11:06 Edited at: 12th Dec 2012 11:18
@Matty-

That sounds like a great way to instantly travel anywhere in the universe, except when you realize that according to the same crackpot special relativists who gave us those theories, it is also true that an object becomes more and more massive the faster it goes, meaning that in reality, travelling great distances through space in any reasonable period of time is quite impossible. Thanks, science.

EDIT: Woah, I didn't see the second page.

@OBese-

Yes, yes, classic thoughts on the nature of reality. But how do I know that the standards against which we compare what we observe, what we observe, and our very own logic are not all illusions? You may exist within a separate yet connected reality, a reality within my reality, or the same reality that I am in, but I can never know for sure unless I suddenly start accepting a lot more suggestions, in which case you might as well consider me misled. No matter what, there seems to be no absolute truth, science, or logic to anything.

Quote: "Cogito Ergo Sum. (I think therefore I am)

Prolly the only sensible thing I've read from Descartes. Did you know the man used to meditate in an oven? Philosophers are weird people."


I tried to avoid going there. I have heard of several who have used that phrase, and by the sound of it oven meditation is one of the less strange things they do.
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Dec 2012 11:24
You should really watch this since you seem to have no understanding of how science works.



You're signature has been erased by a mod
Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 12th Dec 2012 11:29 Edited at: 12th Dec 2012 11:33
@Benjamin-

I hate science, but even so it is not as bad as our legal system. It always seems to be biased towards results rather than simple logic. What are you going to do in a million years when you need a special computer implant just to survive, but it breaks and you need to repair it? It should have been designed with simple logic in mind first and foremost.

If a young retarded brain damaged child cannot instantly, completely and fully understand a theory, then it is NO GOOD. Any higher level thought just complicates the situation and leaves too much room for error. That's why the medieval knights used swords and not lightsabers. Had lightsabers been introduced to them, they would have thrown them out due to reasons of unreliability. Where does that unreliability come from? Overthinking the design. This is the story of every scientific investigation ever performed. It eventually gets too complicated, and ends in disaster. Special relativity is an example of this. Why waste years on false theories when we can just use Newtonian physics? It's not like anybody's ever built a space ship that can slow down time.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Dec 2012 12:21 Edited at: 12th Dec 2012 12:22
What about medical science? I am sure a brain damaged child cannot instantly fully understand the science (though, I'm not sure why 'brain damaged' has any significance here, my cousin is brain damaged and is very intelligent), theories and practices of medical science, yet there it is, saving people's lives every day, without that 'complicated' science, we'd still be using dark age medicine and blood letting.

Without science you wouldn't be able to communicate with us right now. It is through science we have computers (and to the insane power they work) and it is also through science we have the internet.

It is through our understand of physics that allow our satellites to work and it is through that we gain many uses. It's through science that man safely landed on the moon and back again. It is through science that we have a rover on mars. It's also through science that we are able to feed our largely dense populations and why we have reduced crop failures.

The complicated science you speak isn't just logic, it's all very practical. It's this complicated 'overthinking' that's brought so many things that shape our lives and heck, are responsible for us living.

So I can't understand why somebody would hate science, especially when so, so, so, so many people rely on it without even realising it.

Fluffy Rabbit
User Banned
Posted: 12th Dec 2012 12:34
@Seppuku Arts-

I dislike things that I cannot understand. I don't want to live in a world where everybody but me thinks a certain way and claims some kind of magical "science" like special relativity or electronics. I'll admit we take a lot of stuff for granted, but I hope and pray that at least the nerds have forgotten how to operate the lower level technologies so that at least we're on a level playing field. If you want to win me over to the dark side, math is not the way to do it. I can understand simple math, but when you go dragging quantum physics into it, it gets unnecessarily complicated. Science used to be trial and error, and that's how it should be, not this quantum physics mumbo jumbo.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Dec 2012 13:08 Edited at: 12th Dec 2012 13:13
There are many things we don't understand in life and in general, heck plenty of things I find difficult to understand. For me, what's important is the results. I don't even understand how my computer works, I am sure if I picked up a text book and read I'd understand. I don't think it matters that I don't understands because I know that whatever science lies behind it works.

When it comes to science, evidence and testing are still necessary factors to the scientific process, because hypotheses and theories are still scrutinised it's very difficult for something speculative to be accepted as fact. I would very much like to be able to understand all of the complicated sides of physics - I wouldn't know where to begin in regards to quantum physics and the likes. Heck, my mathematic skills suck, sure I was really good at science at school, but really, I'm a writer, I use a whole different part of the brain. My maths skills are good enough for programming and that's about it.

But I understand what the scientific process is and I understand how the scientific community works and I have used the scientific process too. It is enough for me to trust that they are working in the right direction. Knowing they're producing results and heck, even developing and improving technology as a result suggests to me there's something to it. So I don't think there's an air of 'magic', though I think it may be portrayed in that way sometimes, like when watching science documentaries - they don't really explain what's going on or explain why a scientist has come to that conclusion and in how it's presented, they might as well be saying "Aliens". Heck, some docs really are that speculative and they may shove on a pseudoscientist to back them.

The way I see it, there is a lot we don't understand out there, but I seem no harm in not understanding. We have a choice to accept it, by all means be a sceptic, to me, scepticism is a healthy thing - it means we question and that's what's needed in a scientific mind. But it won't change the facts. It would be nice to be able to explain the world in simple terms, unfortunately, it's no simple matter.


Also, I don't understand how anybody would think One Direction are talented, but yet, they keep selling records.

Matty H
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Posted: 12th Dec 2012 14:58
Quote: " travelling great distances through space in any reasonable period of time is quite impossible."


Not at all. In fact, as you travel faster, the universe gets smaller meaning you don't have as far to travel.

It is quite reasonable to think that one day we will be able to travel the universe using 'conventional'(not worm holes or warp drive) methods. The big drawback is you can never really go home, or you can but time will have passed much quicker there and everyone you know may have been dead for many years

Also, are you saying science should stop at the point YOU stop being able to understand it? This is very selfish and quite limiting, no offence

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