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Geek Culture / TCPA - the end of DB?

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JamesBlond
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 14:48
If this technology really comes, would this be the end of DarkBasic?

Quote: "This secures that the TCPA can prevent any unwanted software and hardware. The long term result will be that it will be impossible to use hardware and software that's not approved by the TCPA. Presumably there will be high costs to get this certification and that these would be too much for little and mid-range companies. Therefore open-source and freeware would be condemned to die, because without such a certification the software will simply not work."


http://www.againsttcpa.com/what-is-tcpa.html

Smile and be happy, things could be worse!
So I smiled and was happy, and things got worse...
Preston C
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 15:01
Quote: "If this technology really comes, would this be the end of DarkBasic?"


If it comes, there will be hell to pay. Personally I don't think it will come.


Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz 512MB Ram NVIDIA GeForceFX 5200 128MB
Dave J
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 15:08
Yeah, it would also be one of the stupidest moves ever considering how popular freeware and OpenSource has become and is growing.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Easily Confused
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 15:22
You can dress this up in any fancy word play you like but to me it's saying: "You're going to have to pay if you want to survive."

Greedy, sons of bitches.

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 15:44
I dont understand.
can anyone tell me wat this means and why its the end of db?

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klariza
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:09
that is not welcomed into my world.
if that is introduced - i would use whats left of my pooter and when it dies - thats it - i am packing up my stuff and find something else to do - cause they are just taking the p*** now.

I am obsessed by Toasters - especially talking ones...bizaare really isn't it?
klariza
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:10 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 16:10
then again - thats just saying i am going to give in and why should i?
stuff em! cheeky £"$£$^$%&^$*$&$£((^%

I am obsessed by Toasters - especially talking ones...bizaare really isn't it?
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:21
now where did I put my old assault rifle? *digs thru cushins*

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JamesBlond
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:21
Quote: "can anyone tell me wat this means and why its the end of db?"


It means that only those firms who have the money to buy the certificates can sell software that will run on future computers. It also means that our programs we write might not run on it since we don't own the certificates. It means that only approved files can be opened on those computers (ie. the end of file-sharing, kazaa etc.). It also means that if a lightining strikes your future computer, and the tcpa-chip on the motherboard gets damaged, you will not only have to buy a new motherboard, but you will also have to rebuy all other software you own, since the old software was registered to run on that chip alone (meant to be a measure against software-piracy).

Quote: "Personally I don't think it will come"

http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-members.html
http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-hardware.html
These firms are working on it... The hardware already exists... The next Windows will run on it...

Smile and be happy, things could be worse!
So I smiled and was happy, and things got worse...
Arrow
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:27 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 16:27
Lol, and I bet at least 15 hackers have allready found a way around it.


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:32
Why is there so much evil in the world?

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Easily Confused
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:40
You mean to tell me, that if this thing actualy gets implimented, anything we create in future we would not be able to share with anyone else? Then what is the point of being a bedroom programmer? When all we could do is develope things for one machine and no other (Or am I missing the point completly?).

If this is their solution to piracy well, that's like curing a disease by killing the patient, his family, his neighbour and his dog (just to be on the safe side).

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
DrakeX
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:46
you can bet your ass this thing was thought up by people who know next to nothing about computers. kinda like the judge in the MS vs. netscape case who didn't even know what netscape or windows were

if this happens you can also be sure that there will be a lot of building burning. particularly the buildings of Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Adobe, AMD, Fujitsu-Siemens, Gateway, Motorola, Samsung, Toshiba...

stop looking at me!
MikeS
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:51
Why the heck stop freeware/Open Source? That would totally kill future game development employees,companies, etc. It could really kill the market. I doubt it would pass though.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:03
YESSSSSS!! BURNINGSS!!! I LOVE BURNINGS!
GET THE TORCHES EVERYONE!

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Shadow
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:14
We shall show no mercy.

Fallout
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:24
I'll believe it when I see it.

You guys forget bespoke software. Imagine the amount of people out of jobs as thousands of bespoke software companies etc etc are destroyed by it.

It's blatently either (a) crap or (b) genuine, but not gonna happen. It'd crush the whole computing industry.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
Preston C
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:27
/me lines up the nukes, bunker bomb launchers, and Barney the Dinosaur video tapes

Yes, No Mercy!!!


Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz 512MB Ram NVIDIA GeForceFX 5200 128MB
Easily Confused
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:30
"Barney the Dinosaur video tapes"

Hehe! Now there's a destructive weapon

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:36
Fallout is right, the public outrage will tear our nations apart.
We need a better solution!
We need peace and freedom!
We need more nukes!

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Rob K
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:37 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 17:38
Open source is far too popular to make this a reality. Rather ironically, Microsoft are a key player in TCPA. How ironic.


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net / BLUE IDE [href]http://blueide.sf.net/ - Replacement editor for DBPro[/href]
Preston C
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 17:44
If this pulls through, lets have Lee and them make Dark Basic for OpenGL Linux, and then we can all migrate to a Linux system, where hopefully this will not exist.


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KNau
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 18:14
If I'm not mistaken, with WineX we can already run most Dark Basic programs in Linux and (in the future) Mac.

http://www.canceriannewmedia.com
Ian T
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 19:59
That's what I've heard . WineX is getting pretty powerful.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
Shock
AGK Developer
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 20:02
there is a good side to this, microsoft will most probably kill themselves.

the BIG linux companies (like rehat) will develop machines without these chips, and redhat would more than likely become the most used OS in the world.

Amiga's will still be alive, and will grow (with the possibility of an Amiga One style amiga becoming a big seller)

Apple would probably say "feck this, we're not stupid" and also develop mac's without this chip. But that's not certain, Apple could easily be behind this project.

If there is something in a new law, saying all computer's must have these chips, i'd ask- "Define what a computer is".

It's a fantastically stupid idea, and could cause the death of the modern day PC, which in turn will be replaced by games consoles with operating system's.

They seem to forget, that without hackers and crackers, we wouldn't be where we are today. Micosoft would still just be the dream of a little nerd (pointing no fingers at who).


TMB - under construction
Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken.
D Man
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 20:28
Quote: "If this pulls through, lets have Lee and them make Dark Basic for OpenGL Linux, and then we can all migrate to a Linux system, where hopefully this will not exist.
"


There is a hardware component, too.
You won't be able to run Linux, since it won't get licensed.
btw. there are already computers with TCPA-abilities sold; one of them is Microsofts X-Box.

God is real, unless declared integer.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 20:56
If the day ever comes that someone else can tell me that I can't do what I want with something I created (in dbp or anything else) I will leave the planet!!!

-RUST-
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 21:04
Quote: "I will leave the planet!!!
"


can I come with u?
Call me when u do.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 21:23
yes - all are welcome to join me!!!
Off to planet Blarknar!



-RUST-
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 21:48
Balrknar sounds too far away, hows about mars?
btw, this is a stupid idea! Is this similar to the certified driver thingies that windows xp has? so everything must be passed by microsoft before the comp will allow it? Couldn't dbp as a program be given one of these certificates and then anything made in it would be covered by that certificate? just a thought


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Do it now!!!
HZence
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 22:44
They do that, we sue. If that doesn't work, we start up our own organization, make programs and call the "smoftware", encrypt them differently, develop our own technology...WHATEVER it takes. No way I'd ever agree with that load of BS.

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
Wik
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 22:44
Quote: "Presumably there will be high costs to get this certification and that these would be too much for little and mid-range companies."




What is this world comming to?


I wanted to learn C++ but then I started having nightmares.
I would scream at night, "AHHHHH!!! THE SEMI-COLONS"
HZence
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 22:49
Quote: "If this pulls through, lets have Lee and them make Dark Basic for OpenGL Linux, and then we can all migrate to a Linux system, where hopefully this will not exist."


Heh, yeah, right on Preston, I'd do whatever the hell I had to.

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
JamesBlond
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 23:18
Want to have a good laugh?

http://www.trustedcomputing.org/home

It's just unbelievable how much they "increased" my trust.

Smile and be happy, things could be worse!
So I smiled and was happy, and things got worse...
Fallout
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 23:52
Are you sure this isn't just one big piss-take/hoax?

Seems too stupid to be true, and I'm very surprised none of my lecturers who are all well informed and all very out-spoken (especially about microsoft) haven't mentioned it. It seems like the sort of thing one of my lecturers (the main programming one) would have a field day with.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
Preston C
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 23:56
Quote: "Are you sure this isn't just one big piss-take/hoax?

Seems too stupid to be true, and I'm very surprised none of my lecturers who are all well informed and all very out-spoken (especially about microsoft) haven't mentioned it. It seems like the sort of thing one of my lecturers (the main programming one) would have a field day with."


Yeah, I still think its a hoax, but if its real

*makes a movement with his fist to show that there will be hell to pay*

I posted about it in the Microsoft Communities under general security (since this is for security purposes) and I havent gotten any serious responses yet.


Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz 512MB Ram NVIDIA GeForceFX 5200 128MB
D Man
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 00:18
HZence
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 00:24
Quote: "NGSCB extends the Windows operating system to provide a set of new secure computing capabilities."


Should be:

Quote: "NGSCB confines all programs within the Windows operating system to provide a set of new secure computing capabilities and giving you less and less freedom. P.S. We're going to own the world by the end of next quarter."


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
Preston C
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 00:39
IT WONT STOP OUR PROGRAMMING!!!

Here's a few snippets from that article that can aide my theory.

Quote: "Q: I have heard that NGSCB will force people to run only Microsoft-approved software.

A: This is simply not true. The nexus-aware security chip (the SSC) and other NGSCB features are not involved in the boot process of the operating system or in its decision to load an application that does not use the nexus. Because the nexus is not involved in the boot process, it cannot block an operating system or drivers or any nexus-unaware PC application from running. Only the user decides what nexus-aware applications get to run. Anyone can write an application to take advantage of new APIs that call to the nexus and related components without notifying Microsoft or getting Microsoft's approval.

It will be possible, of course, to write applications that require access to nexus-aware services in order to run. Such an application could implement access policies that would require some type of cryptographically signed license or certificate before running. However, the application itself would enforce that policy and this would not impact other nexus-aware applications. The nexus and NCAs isolate applications from each other, so it is not possible for an individual nexus-aware application to prevent another one from running.

Q: Will other software products still run on machines with the TPM?

A: Yes. If the software runs on systems today, it is very likely that it will continue to run on systems with a TPM.

Q: Some people have claimed that running the Windows operating system with the nexus will enable Microsoft or other parties to detect and remotely delete unlicensed software from my PC. Is this true?

A: This is not true. NGSCB does not include mechanisms that delete or disable any content or file that currently runs on a PC. In fact, the NGSCB architecture is built on the premise that no policy will be imposed that is not approved by the user. Microsoft is firmly opposed to putting "policing functions" into nexus-aware PCs and does not intend to do so. A machine's owner, whether an individual or enterprise, has sole discretion to determine what programs run on the nexus-aware system. Programs that run under nexus-aware systems, just like programs that run under Windows, will do whatever they are allowed to do, based on the security settings on the user's machine. NGSCB not only respects existing user controls, it strengthens them.

As stated earlier, the function of the nexus, NCAs and related components is to make digitally signed statements about code identity and to protect secrets from other nexus-aware applications and regular Windows kernel- and user-mode spaces. Enhancements to the Windows operating system introduced as part of NGSCB do not have any features that make it easier for an application to detect or delete files.

#########

* These exceptions include the following:

Some debuggers may need to be updated to work in the NGSCB architecture environment, but they can still work.


Some special performance tools may need to be updated.


Software that writes directly to TCPA hardware will need to be updated.


Memory scrub routines (at the hardware level) will need attention.


Non-Microsoft crash dump software may need to be updated.


BIOS mode hibernation features will need to be updated.
Microsoft and Windows are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corp. in the United States and/or other countries.

The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.





"


But just in case, I'm sending them an email.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 01:16
hi, I just came.
What are you guys talking about?

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Mattman
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 01:16
holy god of floppy-eared fogs, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wanna come with ya rusty!

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Ian T
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 01:48
Why don't you try reading the post

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 01:50
Quote: "Disney will be able to sell you DVDs that will decrypt and run on a TC platform, but which you won't be able to copy. The music industry will be able to sell you music downloads that you won't be able to swap. They will be able to sell you CDs that you'll only be able to play three times, or only on your birthday. All sorts of new marketing possibilities will open up."


I really can't see this being an issue. Microsoft and all the other companies involved have had DECADES to come up with a solution (hardware or otherwise) to piracy and content duplication and they've never managed it yet. For as long as computers operate via electrodes, chips, circuitry and solder there will *always* be a way to circumvent anything they come up with and I can never see that changing. The very digital nature of computing is its weak point and there's nothing they can do about it.

Cheers,

Rich

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"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 01:57
yea!...what he said.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 02:00
Quote: "Why don't you try reading the post "


I sorta posted that as a stupid joke...
I'll shutup now.

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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 02:13 Edited at: 17th Nov 2003 02:13
as i see it this is just try to make a secure system like the ones on the net browns.

bit it may my just **** you more then stop you makeing softwear.

ie.
1)you make hello world in DB
2)you run it
3)windows says the "this program is not TCPA certification it may haer you computer if ues it"
4)you click ok
5)the progame runs and says "hello"
the end

and you have to do thet ever time it will drive progarmers mad

--Dr 0--
Fallout
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 02:51
I have a feeling if Microsoft is behind it, it'll all go tits up drastically. With more powerful security, there's bound to be more detrimental bugs/backdoors.

Microsoft have a long history of farkin their creations up the wrinkle old mans japseye! Imagine if a hacker/virus got hold of that nexus thingamee bob. Imagine how much computer mashing he/it could do.

Imagine all the absolutely cack companies out there making nexus friendly software. In theory, you could save 100s of MBs of files in an application that uses the nexus to disallow any other application from opening those files, then lose/delete/corrupt that application, not be able to access those files cos the program is gone, and lose the disk space. That's just the first example I can think of, but I guarentee there'll be soooo many more seeing as microsoft is behind it.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
the_winch
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 03:33
I can't see how any system designed by content providers can ever do well. The software is allways crap, badly designed and doesn't do what the user wants because it's too restrictive.

dbpro : p166mmx @ 233 : 256mb : sb 128pci : sis onboard
Dave J
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 06:43
Quote: "If the day ever comes that someone else can tell me that I can't do what I want with something I created (in dbp or anything else) I will leave the planet!!!"


Well if you made a sword or gun then you can't kill someone with it. Similarly, if you made a virus you can't run it on other people's computers. Then again, we're not talking about those things, we're talking about games.

They did say Nexus won't affect the Boot-up process, therefore we can easily run something other then Windows that doesn't support the TCPA system. In which case, I can guarantee a large portion of users will simply pack up and move to Linux if the system is implemented.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
D Man
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 08:15
But implementing the TCPA-hardware is only the first step.
Microsoft has complete control over your computer, using this technology i.e. it's like a censorship over the internet.
@Rich:
Quote: "The complete communication works with a 2048 bit strong encryption, so it's also secure enough to make it impossible to decrypt this in realtime for a longer time."

There's no chance of hacking it using software.
If you try to disable the chip on your computer, you could loose your motherboard.

God is real, unless declared integer.

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