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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK Kickstarter?

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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 20:04
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Hi AppGameKit users,

Internally we've been looking at how to move forward with AGK. We realise there's still a way to go to see the full vision for the product a reality. Imagine a new AppGameKit with all the key features voted for in the recent survey - that's what we'd love to create.

So we're asking in this thread if you would consider backing a Kickstarter for AGK. Our strategy would be to set a low base line fund goal to ensure we succeed and do the first section of work. Then we would have stretch goals that bring in other feature requests.

I know I'm not giving you much info here, I just want to hear what you think about such an idea.

A fully realised AppGameKit would cost significantly more than then current pricing we are offering and by backing us in the Kickstarter (and it being successful) then you would get the new AppGameKit at a discount.

So would you be keen to back it?

Cheers,

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
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SCDC
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 20:19
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If I hadn't already purchased the current AppGameKit I might back a Kickstarter but, as it stands, I think I'll stick with the version I already have.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 20:24
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I'm in.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
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pprem
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 21:00
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Hi Rick

AGK is a great product. I don't use it often, but I think it's the software I need to program games.

If you think you need more money to give us a better product, with HTML5 target or at least packages for Android & Windows without needing an other software. I'm in.

All depends on what do you propose on Kickstarter.

--
Patrick P.
http://www.gamolf.fr
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Matty H
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 21:02
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I would back it.

I feel like agk is way too cheap as it is right now with current features.

I'll just take this opportunity to say that I think Paul is a genius, what he(and Lee) have accomplished so far is nothing short of remarkable, keep it up guys

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Lucas Tiridath
AGK Developer
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 21:30
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It's very hard to give you a definite answer with so few specifics and I don't want to mislead you. I'm very keen to see AppGameKit develop and would certainly be willing to throw some money at it to see it happen. However it would of course depend on what is on offer and what the price tag is.

I guess that isn't very helpful. Having already bought AppGameKit, I guess I'd be willing to throw in up to about £30 to see some improvements that interest me; possibly more for some amazing features. Perhaps the reason I'm cautious is that as a tier 2 developer working almost exclusively in 2D, quite a lot of the features on offer (improved 3D commands, direct export to APK, improvements to/debugger for the BASIC language etc.) wouldn't be of too much use to me. However there were plenty of 2D commands and new platforms included in the survey that I am extremely keen to see and so I'd certainly back you on Kickstarter for even just one of those features.

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Hockeykid
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 21:38 Edited at: 11th Jun 2013 21:39
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Quote: "If I hadn't already purchased the current AppGameKit I might back a Kickstarter"


I agree. Personally, I feel like it's way to early for AppGameKit for there already to be an "AGK Reloaded".

Sean

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baxslash
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:02
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I would, and before anyone says well you would because you work for TGC my title needs updating as I am no longer a TGC developer. I don't want to drag this off topic though, needless to say TGC and I are still buddies and I now have more time for my own project

I have backed a number of game making tools which have far less potential than AppGameKit and I believe AppGameKit could be a heck of a lot better if TGC had enough financial backing to invest more resources into it. That's some clever tactics as well, ask for a little and hope for a lot.

Don't offer anything you can't deliver for the main funding requirement and then ramp up the stretch goals for the really tasty offerings. It would be really great for AppGameKit to get enough funding to take on more people to work on it...

I would 100% definitely back it.


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:15
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iam willing to throw in some Money to simply get a one click apk build feature faster
How much do you guys want for that
Can i donate with paypal on kickstarter?

Android 2.3 , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz , Sony ericson arc 480x854 , 1 ghz
Android 4.0 , Dmtech 3g 9738B , 1024x768 , 9.7 inches , 1.2 ghz
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xCept
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:17 Edited at: 11th Jun 2013 22:21
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Well, the original plan for AppGameKit was to charge users for major upgrades, one such upgrade would have been for the 3D commands. So in that sense AppGameKit users have already gotten more than the original expectations without having to pay anything extra.

I know that Lee once conceded that the DBP revenue model (pay once, get infinite updates) is not feasible to support long-term updates. DBP has the benefit of supporting external plugins which TGC can publish. I also understood the Freedom Engine business model of having a monthly subscription fee, so if a large enough user base existed there would be a continuous supply of revenue. But alas, that didn't go over so well either.

I would likely support a Kickstarter initiative, but would also need to know very specific details about what features would be added or improved and when. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how big the AppGameKit community is currently and fear that many outside of the existing community may be more reluctant to jump on board.

The truth is there are many alternatives that are open-source or free which support cross platform development and enormous communities. Even Unity has begun offering a very powerful free version to develop and deploy on PC, iOS and Android. I have used at least a dozen other engines over the years for mobile and desktop development and still find AppGameKit to be the most enjoyable and quickest to develop concepts. But, I know those who have never used AppGameKit may be reluctant to even try it over these alternatives. Therefore, raising enough funds for a successful Kickstarter may not be in reach.

The first goal, of course, is to bring 108 to completion and get everything finalized for it across all avenues (update the website, make sure the players are all in check, etc). Right now a newcomer may purchase and download 1.076 but be completely lost about where to go or how to even test it on their devices since the players (e.g., on Google Play) only support the latest beta version. It will be a great feeling to have 108 in final form.
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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:27
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Not sure I'm fond of Kickstarter. Whose to say when the money gathered from this kickstarter is done and then what run another kickstarter?
Here is what I think should be done.
Run a subscription based model for AGK. Drop the Freedom Engine product as its really just a clone of the AGK.
The subscription based model would give users accesss to the latest library for that month/year etc.... For new users charge a higher amount and for early users cut that rate in half.
Something along those lines.
If you drop off subscription you lose the right to publish games for sale however you can continue to work with last version you had access to and can release games for free.
I know some will hate me for that but if we need to resort to kickstarter I think this would be a better option.
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Ched80
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:28
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I probably wouldn't pledge after the experience with reloaded, the pledge rewards were good enough, but the target and secondary targets were far too high and I'd be worried the same would happen for this.

If TGC are looking for additional funding for AppGameKit, I'd rather pay an annual subscription to continue to receive updates and betas and give the non subscribers only access to the previous version. That way non subscribers would still get updates, but they would sit one version behind the subscribers.

Just a thought.

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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:29
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surely all these kickstarters are just upgrades to the existing products...just my own personal view.
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MikeMax
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:35
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i'll be there
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fog
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 22:36
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The problem with a general Kickstarter project, as highlighted by the recent AppGameKit survey, is that everyone wants different things added so would only likely give it minimal backing.

Quote: "Perhaps the reason I'm cautious is that as a tier 2 developer working almost exclusively in 2D, quite a lot of the features on offer (improved 3D commands, direct export to APK, improvements to/debugger for the BASIC language etc.) wouldn't be of too much use to me. However there were plenty of 2D commands and new platforms included in the survey that I am extremely keen to see and so I'd certainly back you on Kickstarter for even just one of those features."

This is very much how I feel. Everyone who bought AppGameKit early bought it on the understanding it was a 2D language, so likely had little initial demand for 3D and associated bells and whistles.

I know why 3D was added and appreciate all the great work Paul has put into it, but certain areas of 2D and core areas like music and sound still lack what should be basic features in any language.

I'd happily pay you guys for specific add-on modules rather than a general Kickstarter project. So for example I might shove £20 in a Kickstarter, but I'd happily throw £50 at a module that greatly expanded the sound commands.

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Funnell7
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 23:36
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AGK is an excellent product and I would most definitely back this if it helped TGC/AGK to develop further.

Prior to AppGameKit I used a different SDK, I won't mention the name, but it begins with 'D' and ends in 'ragonfire' and in the year I used it, I don't recall ever getting an update. AppGameKit is just awesome!
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ACKohollic
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Posted: 11th Jun 2013 23:38
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Sure I will Back a Kick-starter for the AppGameKit product. I think the current version is great and if a little money will allow the development of a bigger and better product then all that use it should contribute. I do understand the reservations that some may have about the current versions and issues with fixes but, progress requires money, and you already know what the product is now.

Addicted to Coding Kits.
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Impetus73
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 00:11
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Yes I will back it! Get it on Kickstarter!

----------------
AGK programmer
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 00:52
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I would probably back it, AppGameKit has been a great product and TGC's support has been pretty good so far. My only concern is that they have been a bit to hasty with descitions. (Starting freedom engine, almost focusing soley on FPSCR for a while ect) However, I do believe that a successful kickstarter would make that better not worse. If there are features that im relativley interested in, I can probably throw in 10-20 €
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swissolo
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 02:12
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Already owning AppGameKit this makes me slightly unsure. As a few have mentioned, most AppGameKit updates aren't really relevant to me and I don't see extra money making it go much faster. That being said, as long as it isn't subscription, I'd be happy to put more money forward for AGK. I'm not sure Kickstarter would truly be the right choice though. Could TGC hold this themselves instead of following the Kickstarter structure?

swis
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Interstellar
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kslam212003
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 03:35
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I like to use AppGameKit, because it is easy to use compare to others framework. But I won't use AppGameKit for my project. I will use Cocos2d-x for my project, because it is a cross platform framework (Support iOS, Android, WP and Html5). It save me a lot of time.

I want to know the roadmap of AGK. When it can support WP and Html5 ?

Anyway I will support the Kickstarter.
Once AppGameKit can support iOS, Android, WP and Html5,
I will use it for my project.
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wargasmic
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 07:35
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The original post gives me a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach. You're basically asking people who have already bought the product (since you're asking on the product forum) if they are willing to give more for future development. If they don't, what happens to AppGameKit then?

I have suddenly got the feeling that there are problems with AppGameKit development and more incentive is needed to keep developing a product that people have already bought.

I could be completely wrong here, but that's my initial feeling.
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Zwarteziel
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 08:11 Edited at: 12th Jun 2013 09:34
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I will certainly back it. I find AppGameKit to be a very elegant language, with a broad range of possibilities and good performance. Looking at the recent suvery-results however, I think that quite some work still has to be done in order to bring AppGameKit to 'maturity' (better debugger, .APK export, AGO) and beyond. While the maturity-part can most likely be done by the current team within a reasonable time-frame, more momentum is always a good thing, certainly when it gives us a chance to quickly move to the 'beyond' part. So, yes: take my money! Please!
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Tone Dialer
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 09:05
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Back in March Rick said...
Quote: "
AGK Development Roadmap

We're currently beta testing V1.08 and are now close to completing that work.

Following this version we will roll out these new features;

3D Animation support (bone based 3D models)
"AGO" 3D format
Shader commands
Faster Compiler
Debugger
Improved help files

Once these are in place the product will be considered a stable version and will become a full commercial version costing $99.

All existing users will gain all these updates for free."


As a AppGameKit purchaser, user and beta tester I think AppGameKit should continue as above.
Get AppGameKit to a final stable version and sell it for a fair price.

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LittlePIC
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 10:04
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Will wait for the dollar amount but yeah would help back the development
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Barros
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 10:05
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I love AppGameKit,it easy to use.
But I'm purchased on 6/06/2013,now I have not received the product yet.
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Barros
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 10:13
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I love AppGameKit,it easy to use.
But I'm purchased on 6/06/2013,now I have not received the product yet.
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baxslash
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 11:18
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@Barros, as you are new to the forum your posts will not appear until you are out of the initial moderation period. Please wait for your posts to appear.

Products often take a few days to appear in your products page but you should get an email when it goes through.

Welcome to the forums


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
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RickV
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 11:23
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Hi,

Thanks for your quick feedback. There does seem to be some strong support for this. I have answered everyone's message below.

Soon I'll be able to share a preview of the Kickstarter page to gain feedback again.

Rick


@SCDC - OK, understood

@Ancient Lady - thanks for the support

@pprem - HTML5 is not on the list right now. It's a very big work to get our engine to that level. I think we need to round off what we have for the plaforms we have now and then revisit HTML5.
- We are working on a one click deploy for APK files now. That should be available very soon to all AppGameKit users.

@Matty H - thanks for your support and appreciation, and yes Paul is a genius!

@Lucas Tiridath - thanks for your support. Extra 2D features will be a main focus (playing to our strengths)

@Hockeykid - we have been developing AppGameKit since 2010. Re-investing sales into the continued development of the product. With a mix of our own re-investing and additional revenue from Kickstarter we can secure the funding we need to see this project evolve further.

@baxslash - thanks for your support mate!

@Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS - your first wish is being worked on! We will have both Kickstarter and direct paypal funding routes. Thanks for your support.

@xCept - you are right, there are a lot of engines we're up against. We still feel we have a very special product with AppGameKit and can compete with the big boys. We'll take a look at the AppGameKit website today re the players too.

@XanthorXIII - We're not sure a subscription model will work for AGK. We have frozen all work on Freedom Engine and are unlikely to go back to it any time soon. AppGameKit and RELOADED are our only core products we are spending time on now.

@Ched80 - we will not be looking for too much revenue from the Kickstarter.

@Bored of the Rings - we're looking to pre-fund the development by using Kickstarter.

@MikeMax - thanks for your support!

@fog - We will be focusing on the extra 2D features in the first additions list. The sound is also very important so we can lift that into the high priority zone.

@Funnell7 - thanks for your kind words and support

@ACKohollic - thanks for your views and support

@Impetus73 - thanks for your support!

@The Zoq2 - thanks for your support.

@Swissolo - thanks for your support. By using Kickstarter we should also find more customers who might jump in and support the product.

@kslam212003 - thanks for your support. We are not planning new platforms for now. Maybe in 2014!

@wargasmic - like many developers we need to cover our costs. Kickstarter is one option for moving forward and we are exploring this today with you. We have been in business since 1999 and hope to be for many years to come, so please try to calm down and relax

@zerotown - thanks for your support.

@Tone Dialer - the compiler is fast again now in Beta13. The help files have also been updated and you will be seeing a way for the community to be able to create examples that can slot into the help via the server in the next few days. The key problem we have is one of falling sales revenue of older products while we develop our new tool sets. We have to set a new course to ensure we can continue the development of AGK.

@LittlePIC - thanks for your support

@Barros - thanks for your support

Financial Director
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Markus
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 12:06
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hmmm,
there are to less people for a kickstarter, in my mind.
i think about by rent but it is the similarly problem.

sample calculation:
2 developers 2x3000€ each month
1 year = 6000*12 = 72000€
agk by rent 5€ each month = 60€ per year
72000€/60€ = 1200 People/Customers

if there come more Customers its possible to reduce monthly cost
or get one more developer.
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MarcoBruti
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As soon as the next stable version of AppGameKit will be released and will be satisfactory from my point of view (to produce T1 stable Android apps, with an acceptable compiler without macroscopic bugs, and without huge issues as with music), I'll consider to fund the project.
But I need to see a working 1.08 stable version.
I have spent too much time and writing in giving suggestions that have not been taken into account, so I think that a minimum of skepticism is reasonable.
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mr_d
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Looks like I missed the initial replies and response to this, but here's my thoughts on this anyway for anyone remotely interested...

Firstly, I'd like to join those that have already expressed their appreciation to the wonderful work that Lee and Paul have done for this product since it's release.

Like many, I'm not sure KS is the way to go for this in the normal sense of initial goal and then stretch targets, as has been mentioned, everyone has their own pet wants and needs that would dilute the overall collection of funds.

Now, my ideas for possible future funding are a little different to those already mentioned, but if successful, could prove very beneficial to TGC.

My first idea is that TGC provides a service similar to that of the recent educational game competition, in that TCG could help developers improve their creations via either improving game mechanics, gameplay input, or just improved professional media.

It could include help in the building to a number of platforms, as well as publishing to the numerous portals and distribution sites.

TCG would either charge a flat fee for this overall service until the game is released, and/or can accept a percentage of any profits that the finished product makes.

My second idea, is pretty similar to this, but instead of this all accomplishing service of the above package, they would provide/assist in only the publishing aspect of this service.

My personal idea of what TCGs cut would be, would be say 10-15%, as opposed to the 50% that they mentioned for the recent competition.

We have a number of very talented developers using AppGameKit, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them strikes the big one using this product.

Anyway, sorry for this being mildly Off Topic, but I believe it relates, and could be a new avenue that TGCs hasn't really traveled to any significant degree.

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MarcoBruti
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I am not sure that a fee on profits is not reasonable on Android market, where revenues are too low or based on in-app purchase or advertisements, that are hard to evaluate.
But there are a lot of people that are keen on developing as an hobby (like me), so their living does not rely on sales, and will be happy to give a little amount of money to improve their tool, as an hobbyst carpeenter that pays for a good hammer.
TGC must concentrate on the big effort, i.e. produce a good, stable and reliable BASE product (both T1 and T2), create some demo games, developed completely with that product (specifying if Tier-1 or Tier-2) to showcase all the main features, raise a little the price, and then ask for additional contributions.
I have already paid for the product, but I will be ready to pay for an upgrade or a kickstarter...but the stable product must be NON BETA.
To pay a monthly fee at this stage, I feel that would not be very successful.
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CodeGit
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 13:57
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I'm in.

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TDavid
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 15:25
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I don't know if a kickstarter would really attract more people, but it's worth trying.

I'd be glad to support the development of AppGameKit by prepurchasing a MAJOR update, but I would in no way pay a monthly fee to use agk.

I'm sorry but I'd rather learn a cheaper language.
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Munchy2007
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 15:41
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From what I seen of AppGameKit so far in the short time I've been using it I can say I'd be happy to invest more money (up to a point) in it to ensure continued development and support.

I'm not entirely against a subscription model myself, as long as the monthly cost was similar to something like World of Warcraft monthly subs.

Alternatively I'd be happy to pay for major upgrades and additions, there again as long as the price is within reason.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 18:27 Edited at: 12th Jun 2013 18:28
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It would be hard for me to put money towards a project's kickstarter when I've already paid for it. But I might be willing to pitch something in if I knew html5 support was coming.

Oh, and I would never pay a monthly subscription for anything game or dev related.

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Markus
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 18:53
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i think it is a misunderstanding about the idea for a fee each month/year.
please do not compare with dubious Microsoft methods.
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Grook
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 19:12
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I'd be willing to chip in for new features I guess even though I'm a hobbyist rather than looking to make money from it. Can't see I'd be up to putting much in though, times are hard. AppGameKit is superb.

Ricky, you stated "We are working on a one click deploy for APK files now. That should be available very soon to all AppGameKit users.". This is my biggest bug bear at the moment with AppGameKit - are we talking months, weeks or days?

"Happiness is contrary to the human condition" --White (to Black)
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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 19:24
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Rick - I'd support a kickstarter for this once but I think you need to seriously look at a subscription. GameSalad and CoronaSDK are good examples of what I think can be done with one from a business sense. Not saying you should charge as much as they do but I think it would help with getting additional developers for your group.
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29 games
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 19:45
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I would support this as either a proper Kickstarter campaign or a TGC compaign, like FPSC Reloaded.

I'm guessing that the minimal goal would be the additional functionality outlined in the current news letter and general bug fixes. That to me would be ideal. A price that below £100 would pretty much seal the deal.

I would also support the idea of paid for upgrades in the future that added functionality or just enable AppGameKit to keep up with changes that are out of TGC's control (such as changes to operating systems, facebook requirements, new hardware like Ouya etc) as I think it's unrealistic to expect TGC to do this for nothing.

one of these days I'll come up with a better signature
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 19:58
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Quote: "please do not compare with dubious Microsoft methods."


I've been developing for PCs since Windows 95 and have never had to pay Microsoft a penny. What are you talking about?

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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Ian Rees
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 20:31
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I have been using AppGameKit for about a year now and I think it is excellent. Paul and Lee have done an amazing job - thanks guys!

I'm personally not convinced that a Kickstarter project is right or the way to go with AGK.

AGK is way too cheap. It's a great programming language and is powerful enough to produce great games for multiple platforms. Is $59.99 the right price for AGK. I think it's worth more than this.

However, with such a low price in the first place, having to pay for stable upgrades is reasonable, and this makes more sense than Kickstarter for me.

I'm certainly prepared to support the development of AGK. I want to say "I'm in" and I probably am in but I think we need more information.

E

www.superiorinteractive.com/galaforceworlds
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Markus
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 20:42
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@JimHawkins
xbox 360 , xna
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Max Tillberg
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 21:02
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To speed up development I would absolutely support a Kickstarter campaign. HTML and simple agk compiling would be great.

Max

Sincerely,
Max Tillberg
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 22:51
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That's a totally different environment.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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313
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 23:06
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One click deploy for Android is on the way, this message made my day (still don't know how to compile game to apk) I will support AppGameKit on Kickstarter but I think it's fair to make one BIG paid release a year.

AGK
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Santman
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 00:27
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Hi Rick,

I'm going to say something controversial here, so please up front accept my apologies and please don;t take it the wrong way. And I'm also not saying I wouldn't support a kickstarter, but I do have a concern that perhaps you can ease.

I am a realist and accept that TGC are a business and need to make money. I am also aware that AppGameKit isn't likely to be the product that makes you guys rich, but that you do use it yourself to create products, such as your recently released driving software. And there in lies the concern. I am aware that the IAP was at least partially worked out as you guys needed it for one of your own upcoming projects, and I imagine that a few other bits and pieces, such as social network commands etc, were also possibly as a result of this. So on the face of it, helping to fund AppGameKit development to get new features and commands isn't an issue: I myself have suggested in the past charging for additional command sets, though I'm not sure how the compiler and IDE would work for that. But, I would have a major problem supporting you financially to develop new commands/functions that you guys may be looking at yourselves anyway and simply masking that. In a nutshell I suppose what I am saying, to reflect others, is that I would only be interested in commands that were genuinely expanding AppGameKit in the right way, if that makes sense. I do also think that it is important that this version of AppGameKit be made as stable as possible - I know of at least two issues that don't appear to be fixed in the newest beta, least of all the fact that I still can't broadcast at all to my mobile device (a problem that popped up at beta 11 and never existed before, and neither my PC nor the mobile changed between beta's).

On a side note, have you guys looked into Steam yet? They have started releasing a few serious apps as of late, including recently an AppGameKit like game creator (it was rubbish though!), and texture creator and a sound studio program. Once AppGameKit is stable (actually even go for it now, the process takes a while I believe) I think that's an excellent opportunity to expand AppGameKit both in terms of sales and user awareness, given it can deploy to PC as well.
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Naphier
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 00:46 Edited at: 13th Jun 2013 00:48
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I would indeed support a kickstarter as well as be willing to pay for upgrade module.
Take my money!!

Napland Games Facebook Twitter Blog
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tornado
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 00:56 Edited at: 13th Jun 2013 00:59
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Chalk&Crayon for iPad - the REAL sketching app!

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