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Geek Culture / Leadwerks for Linux Kickstarter Campaign!

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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:49
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Quote: "You don't know about Wine?

I think the only solution is to put Wine Project to Kickstarter and make it complete. Then there will be no need in Linux ports."

It sends out the wrong message sometimes. Many companies see Wine as an excuse to not bother with a decent Linux port. That said, some companies (Blizzard and Cryptic come to mind) put a lot of effort into making sure their games are compatible with Wine. I would much rather have this than a half-assed native port which is then forgotten about.

You are missing the point though: native code has always, and will always be the best.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 20:28
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Quote: "Well, before I upgraded my RAM, windows took up 2gb + the 1gb that was never used of my 6gb of avalible ram."


It reserves a certain percentage of what you have.

Quote: "Native Windows does not support
-Ripping DVDs and Blueray
-Burning DVDs and CDs (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Playback of numerous, well known formats such as ogg, flac, gif, ogv, and apng
-Compression formats like 7z, tar, gz, rar (Seriously, who uses zip today? It's twice the size as 7z)"


There are so many free applications to do these things, I don't really think it's necessary to bog the OS down with more arbitrary software.

Quote: "In the end, it comes down to what BiggAdd said."


Preference, yes. Windows ships with most computers by default, and since Linux doesn't really have any great advantages over it, I can't see people switching over any time soon.

"Sideboobs are awesome. Getting punched in the face is not." - Jerico2Day on violence and nudity
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TheComet
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 20:46
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Quote: "There are so many free applications to do these things, I don't really think it's necessary to bog the OS down with more arbitrary software."


These "free applications" are ported from Linux. You're basically supporting my arguments for Linux with that statement.

TheComet


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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 20:53
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Quote: "These "free applications" are ported from Linux. You're basically supporting my arguments for Linux with that statement.
"


And the fact that they are ported from linus does not make me more eager to get linux, as either case - they are available on windows.



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TheComet
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 21:24
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That wasn't the original point we were arguing about.

TheComet


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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 21:39
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Quote: "These "free applications" are ported from Linux. "


No they aren't.

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TheComet
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 23:18
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Quote: "Windows has a huge library of drivers for media devices, and a lot of media-related software, some of which Linux could never dream to have because it's commercial and Linux software generally is not."


Quote: "There are so many free applications to do these things, I don't really think it's necessary to bog the OS down with more arbitrary software."


Quote: "No they aren't."


How am I even supposed to answer to any of this if I don't know anything specific you're talking about?

TheComet


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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 23:34
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...Well, this thread has turned into something quite the opposite of what it should be.

Hey look, a game engine for Linux you guys! It's so cool!

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 00:02
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Quote: "How am I even supposed to answer to any of this if I don't know anything specific you're talking about?"


I don't know, you haven't been very specific yourself. You're telling me the free applications I use are ported from linux, yet I haven't even told you what I use.

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TheComet
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 00:18
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Quote: "I don't know, you haven't been very specific yourself. You're telling me the free applications I use are ported from linux, yet I haven't even told you what I use. "


So we're not really getting anywhere.

TheComet


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Quik
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 00:36 Edited at: 19th Jun 2013 00:37
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Skype, spotify, steam, utorrent, paint tool sai, photoshop, zbrush, 3ds max, loads of games, calculator, winrar, tunngle

that about sums it up.
edit: Oh and VLC



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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 00:46
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What's your point?

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Quik
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 00:48
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No I was more or less pointing at

Quote: "I don't know, you haven't been very specific yourself. You're telling me the free applications I use are ported from linux, yet I haven't even told you what I use. "


So I thought I would start ~



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mr Handy
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 00:54
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I still can't understand the difference between porting and Wine. Perfomance? People run GTA4 with Wine.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 01:07
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Quote: "I still can't understand the difference between porting and Wine. Perfomance? People run GTA4 with Wine."


Are you for real?! Wine is an EMULATION PROGRAM. It EMULATES programs designed for WINDOWS, not Linux. PORTING is the process of taking an existing application for a different platform, and reprogramming it to work on another platform without the need for emulation.

As for GTA4 running on Wine, that's probably due to how good Wine's been getting recently, but it's still an emulation program. There is a huge difference between emulating, and supporting a platform natively. HUUUGE.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 01:19
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Emulation is inferior, it can be buggy or glitchy and will not make best use of performance because it is in essense translating. For example. PS2 emulation requires a much higher spec than the PS2 to work smoothly. Emulation may work, but it doesn't work as efficiently as running something native. This may not make a difference to people with the ability to compensate, but it does make a difference. Wine also requires people to configure it and not all configurations necessary work.

For instance, when Neverwinter Nights wasn't getting along with my graphics drivers in Windows I tried running it in Wine on Linux. It worked to a certain degree but there were graphical glitches rendering the game unplayable in places, even with recommendeded settings.

Interestingly, Neverwinter Nights does have a native Linux version, but it's for CD-Rom copies of the game, my copy was from GOG.com so I never tried it.

I also tried running DevC++ and some other software in Wine, some of it works fine, but not all of it. As said, it's meant as an emulator, but is inferior to running something native.

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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 01:32 Edited at: 19th Jun 2013 01:34
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Quote: "Are you for real?! Wine is an EMULATION PROGRAM. It EMULATES programs designed for WINDOWS, not Linux. PORTING is the process of taking an existing application for a different platform, and reprogramming it to work on another platform without the need for emulation. "

Interesting fact: Wine stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. There's probably a clever name for this but I don't remember.

Regardless, Wine does not emulate anything. It intercepts Windows-specific OS API calls and redirects them to the Linux API equivalent. Very few Windows API calls have a direct Linux equivalent (unlike Mac and Linux) and so Wine's job is quite complex and is prone to errors. That said, all things considered it does an incredible job - running things faster than they do in Windows in some cases (more down to how the kernel is engineered as opposed to Wine).

If you want to emulate Windows, download QEMU

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 01:33
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Quote: "There's probably a clever name for this but I don't remember."
Tis a recursive acronym, I believe.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 01:34
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@Seppuku Arts
So the compatibility issue. I mentioned that earlier.

Okay, Leadwerks... nah, Steam will provide more native games for Linux. But what about the old ones? I doubt they will be ported.

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TheComet
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 01:39 Edited at: 19th Jun 2013 01:41
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WINE recompiles as well, doesn't it?

It's definitely NOT an emulator. They say it on their website: http://www.winehq.org/

Quote: "Wine (originally an acronym for "Wine Is Not an Emulator") is a compatibility layer capable of running Windows applications on several POSIX-compliant operating systems, such as Linux, Mac OSX, & BSD. Instead of simulating internal Windows logic like a virtual machine or emulator, Wine translates Windows API calls into POSIX calls on-the-fly, eliminating the performance and memory penalties of other methods and allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."


...and that answers my question.

TheComet


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WLGfx
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 02:52 Edited at: 19th Jun 2013 02:57
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Getting my lappy ready for dual boot.

Windows:

1. Partition HD half for windows.
2. Install windows (takes 30+ minutes)
3. Hunt for the next 30+ minutes for drivers.
4. Ignore the updates for now.
5. Download the "arbitrary" but very useful software.
6. Install firewall only because anti-virus slows it down lots.
7. Ignore updates again for now. (by now about 2 hours in)

Linux:

1. Boot from DVD. (Latest Linux Mint Cinnamon)
2. Install and update. (all done in 20 minutes tops)
2.5. While downloading and installing updates I am not locked out of the computer.

Next steps:

1. Install windows updates. (computer will be ready sometime tomorrow)
2. Telephone MS to get the activation key.
3. Shut down and re-boot windows to finish updates a few more times.

BTW, I've had DBP programs running under Wine. A lot slower than they do on Windows but they run. Other programs run faster.

Leadworks has always seemed to me pretty decent and it'd be nice to see yet another engine ported over. So far I've had success with tons of cross platform API's. With no changes to code they compile and run on both Linux and Windows. I still find windows the awkward one to tweak the compiler settings, paths, etc.

Intel graphics chips (like mine) has slower openGL but that hasn't deterred me yet because I've tested my test apps on my other PC and they run real smooth on Linux and most of the time just a smidgen faster than Windows.

At the moment I have 10 times the amount of software on my Linux partition than I do for Windows. Windows takes up about 12Gb so far while Linux is at about 6Gb.

Arguing about Linux and Windows is pointless really. Linux is free, so argue about Mac OS and Windows instead.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 09:08 Edited at: 19th Jun 2013 09:09
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Okay, Leadwerks... nah, Steam will provide more native games for Linux. But what about the old ones? I doubt they will be ported."


I doubt they will (not all of them anyway). Wine is not useless, but I wouldn't say it's better than having something supported natively.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 16:19
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Ah, ok, so WINE acts more like a translator then? Interesting!

We are so off topic anymore...

Quote: "Okay, Leadwerks... nah, Steam will provide more native games for Linux."


Uhm. Yeah. Leadwerks will be a nice engine to use to MAKE games for Linux, and then provide them through Steam. I really don't see what you meant by that, other than to just dis Leadwerks and continue to be a troll. We get it, you don't like Leadwerks, so really, you could just do the polite thing and leave this thread, so that those who DO like and support Linux and Leadwerks aren't deterred by your contrary arguments.

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Quik
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 16:31
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Quote: "We are so off topic anymore... "

of topic- but still on topic... more of a sidetopic to the normal topic~~ the topic is about a software moving to linux

we're talking about linux, and cross softwares between linux and windows.



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Van B
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 16:44
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Wine, no matter what is an emulator.

It might claim to do this that and anything else - but it's working exactly the same way as emulators work, it's just that it might be doing it better than the open source emulators we're used to. It's not a virtual machine, it's not an OS, it's emulating the requirements to run certain programs, it's an emulator.

They can start calling it 'not an emulator' when it provides 100% accurate speed and compatibility, which it never will. It's certainly not a solution for cross-platform compatibility for software - the last thing on earth Wine should be considered a solution for is games. It's something you use when you need a Windows program running on a Mac, people just don't expect it to do everything flawlessly, unless they are an idiot of course.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 16:47
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What Leadwerks games would be ported on Linux?

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 17:05
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Quote: "What Leadwerks games would be ported on Linux?"


Have you even READ my first post, or the link? This is for Leadwerks on Linux. Make games for Linux, ON Linux, with the version of Leadwerks that's built for Linux! You can make games directly for Linux with no porting whatsoever once Leadwers FOR LINUX is released.

Quote: "Wine, no matter what is an emulator."


See, that's how I felt, even after people said it wasn't.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 17:12
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Emulation refers to interpreting instructions for a different CPU, or recompiling to the native instruction set. Wine just acts as a proxy for certain APIs, so it's not at all an emulator really, unless you want to redefine the term.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 17:22
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Hmm, that's interesting. I never really thought about it like that before. Of course, I've never really used WINE since I just dual-boot anyway...

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Van B
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 17:55
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Emulation is not limited to hardware - it's not limited to anything really - the creators of Wine are trying to limit the term so that they can claim that it doesn't apply to them.
If a program mimicks the behavior of a piece of hardware or software on any level, then that's emulation. The end goal of Wine is to emulate a Windows environment - how is that not emulation!

Wine does not replace the OS, it runs alongside it and emulates the target OS behavior. No need to redefine the term, the people making Wine just need to look it up and pipe down

1. Effort or ambition to equal or surpass another.
2. Imitation of another.
3. Computer Science The process or technique of emulating.
4. Obsolete Jealous rivalry.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 17:59
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Quote: "The end goal of Wine is to emulate a Windows environment - how is that not emulation!"


I humbly agree with this statement. No matter how you define it, Wine is pretty much an emulator. They may have a different word for it on their website, but really, when broken down, Wine is an emulator.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 20:31
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No, emulation is literally just interpreting or translating machine code from another processor architecture. Wine doesn't mimic any hardware or software; it merely provides a compatibility layer. That's not called emulation unless you can find a reliable source that says the contrary.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 20:38
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Let's see what the Oxford Dictionary thinks.

Emulate
Quote: "Computing reproduce the function or action of (a different computer, software system, etc.): the adaptor is factory set to emulate a Hercules graphics board"


So if that's to be believed it's not just different hardware but also different software systems, which I would say includes 'OS'.

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Quik
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 20:38
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soa ll these console emulators are... .... just... compability thingies?



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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 21:56
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Quote: "soa ll these console emulators are... .... just... compability thingies?"


Exactly how many console emulators do you know that don't either reinterpret or translate machine code?

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WLGfx
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 02:14
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When I first installed Wine I didn't have a clue how to run stuff at all. I was a noob to Linux then. Now it is just a case of double clicking on the .exe file and it just simply runs. You're still in the Linux desktop, you do not have anything of the Windows OS desktop, etc, the .exe file just runs and that's it. Speed depends on the type of application though. Windowed programs and fullscreen programs just simply run from a double click.

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TheComet
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 22:29
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@ Van B

From Here

Quote: " Wine's not that kind of emulator

When users think of emulators, they think of programs like Dosbox or zsnes. These applications run as virtual machines and are slow, having to emulate each processor instruction. Wine does not do any CPU emulation - hence the name "Wine Is Not an Emulator."

Some people argue that since Wine introduces an extra layer above the system a Windows application will run slowly. While technically true, Wine is no different from any other software library in this regard; even newer versions of Windows must load extra resources to support older applications.

Importantly, the combination of Wine and Unix can sometimes be faster than Windows itself. This is especially true when the system has good drivers and the application isn't exposing any Performance Related Bugs."


http://superuser.com/questions/14594/why-is-wine-not-an-emulator

Emulation is the process of mimicking the outwardly observable behavior to match an existing target. The internal state of the emulation mechanism does not have to accurately reflect the internal state of the target which it is emulating.

Wine doesn't emulate.

TheComet


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 22:36
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This thread has actually made me interested in Leadwerks as an engine. I'm still learning how to use it, but it's kinda cool, it might be the right step for me getting the hang of C++.

Because the editor is best on C-Shop and 3D World Studio, I've found it to be better than the editors for other engines, though Unity3D has a lot more features as far as that's concerned.

It's pretty damn solid as well. Looking at the rate the KS is getting support it looks like it might actually get Kickstarted, so I'll be looking forward to try it out on Ubuntu.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 17:11
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The editor is pretty cool! I just can't find many tutorials on it, and so I'm not getting far with it...

Lua looks like a great scripting language though! Definitely interested in it!

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Van B
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 17:48
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Wine might not do CPU emulation, but when I say it's an emulator - it's because it's doing EXACTLY what the dictionary definition of emulation/emulate is. The dictionary is not explicit enough maybe - it doesn't cater to the obtuse, it doesn't self-adjust every time someone decides to re-invent a word for themselves and ignore the definition for the sake of marketing.

There is a bigger world than just the internet and those in it - the word Emulate was defined long before Wine's developers decided to ignore it.

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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 20:45
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Wine is not an emulator for only one reason. The day they call it an emulator will be the same day Microsoft sues them. People are just playing with terminology to avoid the wrath of Microsoft. I suspect they will not even get away with that in the future if Wine becomes a real threat to Microsofts sales.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 22:22
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Well, if you take an incredibly loose definition such as this:

Quote: "hardware or software that permits programs written for one computer to be run on another computer"


I guess you could call it an emulator. Along with any cross-platform libraries.

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TheComet
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 22:29
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Yeah, but then every single interpreted language is "emulated", which is incorrect.

TheComet


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 22:44 Edited at: 21st Jun 2013 23:25
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The definition I used says to 'reproduce' the function or action, which would suggest imitation.

To my mind that wouldn't include language or software that's interpretive. I would read that as, emulation on computers is where a the functions of a software system or the actions of a piece of hardware are reproduced in order for a piece of software to function.

If we're to rely on the Oxford Dictionary definition, the question would then be, "does Wine reproduce the Windows software environment in order to run Windows applications?" To me mind, the answer to that question would tell us whether it's an emulator or not.

I know that things like PCSX2 (PS2 emulator) recreates the hardware instructions needed to run a PS2 bios. Hence you need a legal copy of the PS2 bios to run a PS2 emulator. I suspect this might be where and why Wine claims not to be an emulator, because A) you don't need the Windows OS, B) you don't need to emulate the hardware environment in order to run Windows and C) the legality of it. However, I don't know how Wine works, but I suppose it's possible it's emulating a software system rather than hardware.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 23:30
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Quote: "Wine is not an emulator for only one reason. The day they call it an emulator will be the same day Microsoft sues them. People are just playing with terminology to avoid the wrath of Microsoft. I suspect they will not even get away with that in the future if Wine becomes a real threat to Microsofts sales."
Wine is free and open source if I recall? If so, Microsoft can't sue them. Similar to how MS can't sue the organization that maintains Open Office.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 23:45 Edited at: 21st Jun 2013 23:50
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@Van B
You see, Wine allows you to run a Windows application using only Linux files. Wine replaces the calls to Windows files by calls to Linux files. So basically, Wine can get any (game) application run on Linux. Windows, Mac, whatever. How do you call it then, The Emulator Of Everything? Wine is an adapter. Don't you call RGB-DVI adapter an emulator of DVI? Or transformer an emulator of different power? Emulation of NES means virtual NES environment, while Wine running real Linux environment.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2013 00:00
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Quote: "So basically, Wine can get any (game) application run on Linux. Windows, Mac, whatever. How do you call it then, The Emulator Of Everything? Wine is an adapter."


That's a pretty good analogy. All Wine does is translate calls to native libraries, like an adaptor translates input to a different output.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2013 00:09
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@Benjamin
Indeed! Also I remembered the term for Wine: it is a midware, while emulator is an endware.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2013 00:55 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2013 00:56
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Hey Seppuku, I found some good looking tutorials for Leadwerks on YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC272E30DD2883EC3

Some are old, but most are new. Looks like Leadwerks has a lot of amazing features hidden underneath the simplistic engine! I can't wait to try it out more.

EDIT: That playlist is for version 2, but he has a ton of Leadwerks 3 tutorials on his channel, he just hasn't created a playlist yet. I highly recommend them!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2013 01:28
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Cheers, they seem like a decent tutorial set. I'll go check 'em out when I've got a day free to do so.

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