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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Offering AGK V1 as part of a Kickstarter pledge

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RickV
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 11:15
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Hi,

Someone asked us to consider offering V1 AppGameKit as part of a pledge prize on the AppGameKit V2 Kickstarter campaign.

We realise that we've had awesome support from all our early adopters and so we want to ask how you would feel about this.

We're thinking that a pledge of at least £50 would sit well. So anyone pledging £50 or more will get both V1 and V2.

What do you think?

Rick

Financial Director
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MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 11:24
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Personally although you gave us some TGCStore credits which was nice, I would expect the £55-75 area to be fair play... But at £50 makes V1 investors a bit of a kick in the teeth feel...

I was happy to have purchased V1 so early even though I am yet to even make any actual use of it... Waiting for 3D to be solidified... And as such I bought into AppGameKit in support of you guys...

In short... Don't sell yourselves cheap...

Entirely my viewpoint so I shall leave it there

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Ranietz
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 12:20
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I'm not sure if I understand this. Wouldn't everything in AKG V1 work in AKG V2? Or is AKG V2 an add on to V1 so you can't use V2 with out allready owning V1?
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RickV
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 12:40
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Hi,

The Kickstarter is for funding V2, that's the purpose of it.

So anyone backing it will get V2 when it's done.

If does not automatically mean they get V1. They have to wait for V2 to be developed.

So I'm asking what you feel about us offering V1 and V2 as prizes to pledgers and what price would seem correct?

Rick

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Zwarteziel
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 12:41 Edited at: 28th Jun 2013 12:43
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Quote: "I'm not sure if I understand this. Wouldn't everything in AKG V1 work in AKG V2? Or is AKG V2 an add on to V1 so you can't use V2 with out allready owning V1? "


@Ranietz: Yes, but you'd have to wait for version 2 to arrive (Q4 2013 and Q1 2014), whereas you'd be able to start using AppGameKit immediately when it would be part of a tier.

@RickV: I'd say "Go for it!". If I was a potential new user, it would appeal to me tremendously to be able to start learing AppGameKit immediately at the end of the campaign. Plus: it would strengthen your user-base / enlarge the community very quickly.
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Ranietz
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 12:49 Edited at: 28th Jun 2013 12:51
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I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up.

I agree with Zerotown. Go for it.

As for price: I don't know.
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RickV
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 12:57
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Hi,

Thanks for the support. I will let this debate run over this weekend.

Rick

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Markus
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 13:12
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i think it is ok,
all backers(new customers) that give $59.99 or more in kickstarter get the actual version+beta access
for free now and they get the "v2" later.
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Funnell7
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 13:32
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Go for it! I personally have no issues what so ever... Anything that helps TGC helps us too, right?!... That's how I see it at least...
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 13:34
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I would also say go for it, there is no harm in giving a backer something to use imedietly.
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sjbaines
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 13:35
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I'm completely new to AppGameKit (though not to development!), having just signed up for V2 on Kickstarter, and thought it might be worth giving my view on this as an outsider...


Although it's not stated anywhere, I'd kind-of assumed that by backing V2, I'd be given access to V1 whilst waiting for the first beta.

Reason being that I'd have thought that anyone who pledges for V2 is unlikely to then go out and buy V1 as well anyway, so you aren't really going to lose many sales of V1 by offering it, so why not offer it?

If V1 is not included, no problem, I'll use the watermarked demo to have a play with it until the first V2 beta is ready.

There's no way I'm going to have anything ready to release before V2 comes out anyway, so using a watermarked demo isn't really going to cause a problem, and I'd have thought that that would be the situation for most of your KS backers who don't already own V1. And for those that do own V1, it's academic whether you include it or not.

If you don't want to include V1 so as to not upset existing customers, I can understand that.

Oh yes, and Hello!

Cheers - Steve
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 15:08
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It sounds like a good idea to promote interest. I don't know what level makes it cost effective for TGC. Certainly nothing under £50.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
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Battoad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:04
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I already have AGK(v1) but at a final price of $149 for AGKV2, I assumed that AGKV2 would include AGK(v1), hence my comments in the pledge thread.
I think that using the term "V2" confuses the issue in that you are really providing a stand alone plug-in or add-on for V1 but it does not include V1. I thought that version increases included or improved upon earlier releases but did not exclude earlier functionality.

As long as the forum is clear as to what is being offered I am ok with any price for the supply of AGK(v1) from 0 to £75 but clearly the more investment received the better we all will be with the final product.

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Max Tillberg
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:06
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I asked for this since I don't have AKG v1 and wonder if Kickstarter let you upgrade your pledge? It would feel strange to pay for AppGameKit V2 twice.

Sincerely,
Max Tillberg
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:18
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Juney, the V2 AppGameKit will include all of the current V1.

The idea being proposed here is for the benefit of potential backers who don't already have AGK.

Since it is going to take some time before V2 is ready, offering the current version of AppGameKit to people who want to support the expansion of AppGameKit, but don't currently have it, gives them a chance to start playing with AppGameKit and get familiar with what it can do. And then they can really get excited about what they will get when V2 comes out.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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sjbaines
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:22
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Quote: "I think that using the term "V2" confuses the issue in that you are really providing a stand alone plug-in or add-on for V1 but it does not include V1."


Ok, now I am confused.

My understanding is that V2 will be a superset of V1.
Is that correct, or not?
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:44
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I think it's a good idea to offer it to all backers of £55 or higher. That will give new users an extra incentive to back at the higher levels.

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mr_d
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:53 Edited at: 29th Jun 2013 05:33
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EDITED my figures after Digital Awakening's correction - knew I should have checked to make sure instead of relying on my memory

Since AGKv1 is currently selling for $59 (£39) and it has been stated a number of different times that after the current beta version becomes a release that the price would raise to $99 (£66), then I would think it only fair to existing v1 owners, that only KS pledges above at least say £75 should get v1 now along with v2 when developed.

Along these same lines, it would be good if there was a low KS tier for existing v1 owners only to allow upgrades to v2 from their v1 AppGameKit now instead of waiting for after v2 comes out, so that this could add to the stretch goals of this KS campaign. I would expect this new tier to be maybe say £10 or there about (during KS) with the real upgrade post KS to be say £30.

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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 16:57
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I think pledges above £50 should have access to it. If they're already getting AGKV2 as part of the deal for £25 then double that should get them AGKV1 access.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 17:00
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sjbaines, read my post just before yours.

V2 is a standalone, expanded version of V1. It will include all of the V1 functionality.

The use of the term V2 is to mean it is a major improvement over V1.

Bigger, better, able to leap more dimensions!

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Battoad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 17:10
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Thanks A-L but it is not how I have read or understood it from RickV earlier comments above;

Quote: "Someone asked us to consider offering V1 AppGameKit as part of a pledge prize on the AppGameKit V2 Kickstarter campaign. "


And

Quote: "If does not automatically mean they get V1."



If the new release is suffixed V2, it should include AGK(v1) and I think it would be good to offer 2 options. Option 1) get V1 now and V2 later for price pledge £60+, and Option 2) get V1 with V2 release for price pledge £25+, (i.e V1 for free).

If the new release doesn't include V1 I can't see how they can call it V2 and somehow they need to recover from this mistake without upsetting anyone.

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sjbaines
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 17:23
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Ancient Lady said
Quote: "sjbaines, read my post just before yours."


Your post makes it clear, thank you.

(BTW, I actually posted before you, but because I'm new and still moderated, my post didn't appear until after yours - making it look like I just hadn't bothered reading the thread.)

So:
V1 is what is currently on sale.
V2 will contain all of the functionality of V1.
Pledging for V2 alone does not get a standalone copy of V1.
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xCept
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 17:59 Edited at: 28th Jun 2013 18:00
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@Juney,

As Ancient Lady said, V2 will include all components of V1. However, V2 will not be developed and released for a long time, so Rick's proposal is to give backers of V2 free access to the existing AppGameKit V1 (1.08) so they can start developing with AppGameKit right now--and then when V2 is released they'll have complete access to all the new features as well.

Personally I have no problem with this.
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Naphier
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 18:37
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I say why not!
It's a good marketing idea and will get more non-AGK users into the fold.

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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 19:13
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Anyone making a pledge is actually also paying for agk1.

Agk 2 is a enhanced agk 1 so why shouldt all pledgers of 25 £ and higher get a free agk 1?

There may be some new agk users that dont want to wait and could learn with it until version 2 is out.

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Matty H
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 19:23
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I agree with Cliff.

If V2 has everything V1 has and more and they are already getting V2 on release (therefore everything V1 has and more) then why not give them V1 now?

That said, it makes perfect sense to put the price at 50 because anyone buying AppGameKit right now would be pretty mad to find out they could have backed the kickstarter and got it cheaper

If you go ahead with this then you should put the kickstarter option on the AppGameKit site before people buy AppGameKit V1 now, only to realise they could get both for a little more money

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 20:30
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Since there's a £55 tier I think offering v1 to backers from £50 is a bit weird. Unless you add a £50 all digital option (no crib sheet).

Quote: "since AGKv1 is currently selling for £59"

It's selling for $59.99. Which is currently £39.45 according to Google.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 28th Jun 2013 20:39
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Perhaps the "bronze tier" and higher should be given access? Because right now there is no difference between bronze tier and early bird besides the amount paid, and I would be willing to bump up my pledge to bronze tier if it gives me access to v1 right away (when the kickstarter ends).

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haliop
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 02:58 Edited at: 29th Jun 2013 03:08
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not only i agree with you Rick giving AppGameKit v1 is good no matter how you look at it, more users = more games = more publishing = more cool stuff ...

and about the price 50 E and up is fine
however ... i would put 55 E as it is already
and 65 E for getting the same as the 55 E donation plus! AppGameKit v1
buying it for additional 10 E.

and also i would encourage you that everyone who backed low donation and is not an AppGameKit v1 user.. give them a disscount if they want to purchase AppGameKit v1 before the release of v2.

Edit: the best option is this:

if the pledge is higher or equal to the current price of AppGameKit v1 , let them have it.
if its low then the current price of AppGameKit v1 , the price should be minus their pledge amount.
simple and efficient so no body here on the forum feels weird ...

Great idea Rick.



http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=198467&b=22
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Auger
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 03:04
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Actually sounds like a good idea, I'd have no problem if TGC's did this.

Auger
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wargasmic
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 06:50 Edited at: 29th Jun 2013 06:52
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Do owners of agk get agk v2? if not give all your "early adopters" AppGameKit v2 for free, since they never saw it coming.
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Lost Dragon
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 07:31 Edited at: 29th Jun 2013 21:13
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It sounds fine to me.

I don't care if someone else gets v1 cheaper than I got it. I've had it long enough now that I feel like I got my money's worth.

If I just bought v1 two weeks ago I might feel differently. I'm sure you'll handle it in a way that nobody is too annoyed by it.
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CyberGamer
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 13:43
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Quote: "Anyone making a pledge is actually also paying for agk1.

Agk 2 is a enhanced agk 1 so why shouldt all pledgers of 25 £ and higher get a free agk 1?

There may be some new agk users that dont want to wait and could learn with it until version 2 is out."


I totaly agree with Cliff Mellangard ,it usually is the long waiting time for new users that puts them off.
I think TGC should release AppGameKit v1 to pledgers on terms that they (TGC) deem appropriate.
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Zwarteziel
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 14:12 Edited at: 29th Jun 2013 14:14
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It seems that most of us agree on including AppGameKit V1 as part of a tier. I for one am happy about that, because it shows the positive attitude of the AGK-community. Should TGC decide to include AppGameKit, I think it work out well to offer it from the bronze tier and up: it sets the tier apart from the 'early bird'-ones and makes investing in such a tier very worthwhile for the person pledging.

Just my two cents, though
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Bravolta
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 15:49
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Hello to all from Spain
I bought a month ago AppGameKit V1 of 57 € and believed that he was entitled to the new AppGameKit V2
Would that have changed?
It would seem to me that someone page right now € 50 and you give AGKv1 - AGKv2 and my no.


PD1: Sorry for the English, is a translation with Google Translator
PD2: For when Spanish Help?

Help in Spanish now!
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BatVink
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 17:05 Edited at: 29th Jun 2013 17:08
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For anyone that has pledged £25 or more and already owns AppGameKit, it makes complete sense to give away V1 as a reward and get more money in the pot for V2 where we all benefit. Isn't it better that outsiders come in and invest now for our benefit? It's only the level at which this happens that needs to be considered.

The price of AppGameKit V1 is £39.99, $59.99. Therefore you can't offer it below this threshold. I think you need to turn the question on its head...At what price are you prepared to provide a free upgrade to V2 if you buy V1 now? The answer should probably be £39.99, or $59.99

Existing customers will have paid for V1 + an upgrade cost to V2. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. You could have chosen to sit out M$ Office 95,97,2000,2003,2007 and waited for 2010 but you wouldn't have been able to benefit while you were waiting, so you pay for each version. Equally, we have all benefited from V1 and it's time to upgrade if we want to keep up with the future.

As an aside, I think the Academic Pledge should get V1 for genuine schools and colleges. They need it for September, otherwise V2 may be of no use for another full year.

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Tone Dialer
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 18:52
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@Rick,

I already have AppGameKit 108beta14 and am having fun writing loads of code examples to help get it out of beta.
I would be happy with a new pledge set at £45 which would include a copy of AppGameKit 108 (V1) made available to backers on August 9th, you could call it 'AGK Starter Backer', it might well tempt some of the £25, £30 and £35 backers who do not currently have V1 to move up a tier or two.
BatVink is correct, all the upper tiers should also include V1, Academic Backers could make good use of V1 in schools from September.

Good luck to all the TGC team.

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MyQly
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 19:52
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Even though I just purchased AppGameKit V1 last weekend I would be happy to see it added to the AppGameKit V2 KS.

In that, I agree with both BatVink and Tone Dialer above on their notes and recommendations.
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 29th Jun 2013 20:00
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Considering the KS, TGC should lower the price of v1.

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DVader
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Can't see it hurting anything, apart from people feeling upset about it. No problems here, go for it.

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MarcoBruti
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No problem for me, I am not envious. The more AppGameKit users, the more the platform will gain features and reliability.
But, when it will be ready I want my V2 AppGameKit, having pledged 30 pounds.
Do not forget me, otherwise...
Joking, of course
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ET3D
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Hi. I'm a backer of the Kickstarter campaign and saw it mentioned there that you're discussing giving V1 so decided to join the discussion. I'm at the £25 level and I've never used AppGameKit before (or any other TCG products).

Here's how I look at it:

I plan to download the trial and use it to learn about AGK. I will probably do it before the Kickstarter campaign ends so that I have some idea if I like it and that pledge feels worth it.

I think that if October is a realistic target and backers will get a usable version of V2 at that point which they could develop and publish games with, then it's not too far into the future and using a trial of V1 until then would be good enough. If it's not, then I think some people might look at other tools (I've already dabbled with NME for example).

On the other hand I don't think that offering V1 to every backer of V2 will really hurt. It's a short term promotion and that's fine.

On the gripping hand I see offering it at higher tiers mainly as a means to drive these tiers. Since Bronze backer has no meaning except a badge, that may be a good way to drive that tier.


Regarding current sales, I do feel that current buyers (who buy during the Kickstarter campaign) will rightly feel cheated if they discover the Kickstarter later. There are several ways to go about this:

- Direct buyers to Kickstarter.
- Reduce the V1 price significantly for the duration of the campaign.
- Offer V2 for free to everyone who buys V1 during the Kickstarter campaign.

Directing buyers to the Kickstarter should probably be done anyway. Offering V2 to V1 buyers could even be done retroactively, for example to anyone who bought AppGameKit in the two weeks before the campaign started.
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RickV
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Hi,

Thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread.

I think the best way forward is to allow anyone with a bronze level pledge or above to gain access to V1 when the funding process is completed. The main objective here is to fund as many of the stretch goals as possible and this initiative might help in some way.

I'll make an announcement about this once we're over the next stretch goals (oh so close at present).

We'll also make this very clear on the AppGameKit web site.

I will be spending as much of my time finding new ways to bring the campaign to more people's attention.

Cheers,

Rick

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Max Tillberg
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 15:16
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Will it be possible to upgrade to a bronze level pledge?

Sincerely,
Max Tillberg
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BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 15:21
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You can manage your pledge on the Kickstarter site, and increase it

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 16:17
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Quote: "On the gripping hand"

I love the reference (and loved the book). It is very useful at times.

There are two gotchas with the trial version. The first is that you cannot work in Tier 2 (C++) with it. The other (I think) is that it is probably v1076, not v108<anything>. So there are a bunch of features not testable. (I expect someone in TGC will correct me if I am wrong about this.)

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Ancient Lady
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Digital Awakening
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If the trial is 107 then collisions work differently in the full version. So, that might not be a great idea. There are also tons of bug fixes in the current full version so 107.6 is not the best way to show off AGK.

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ET3D
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I understand that 108 is still in beta, so it makes sense that the trial is an earlier version. But yes, looking at the "what's new" page, there seems to be a hell of a lot new stuff in 108. Maybe a new trial version is in order.
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JokerZ
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I was already going to register for silver on kickstarter before I saw this, but decided that it was a worthy deal sweetener. Not that the price for AGK2 isn't already great!

I am the Rocker, the Roller, the OutOfController
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Ancient Lady
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Joined: 17th Mar 2004
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posted: 8th Jul 2013 00:28
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ET3D, the trial version is made of 'final' versions and v108 is still in beta. Once it is out of beta, then the trial version will be made from it.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
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