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Geek Culture / I could use some help to upgrade pc

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Lukas W
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 16:22 Edited at: 30th Jun 2013 17:05
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It's summer times with warm and sunny weather. What a great time to stay inside and play computer games, and what a good time to prepare your pc for Thief 4.

I mainly play Tera these days since its release in EU. I had some problems with this game in the past [link], but it has turned out there was a lot of dust inside the cooling pipes. Nevertheless I have not been able to enjoy this game at higher fps than 20. Playing mainly as a tank I feel the low fps (sometimes 3-10 fps depending on group size and area) is a big handicap and I'm now looking forward to experience the game in higher framerate.

Please note regarding Tera that this game is badly optimized (for being an UE3 game) and value cpu power above anything else. I choose here i5 3570K due to price tag and in hopes to overclock it if needed.

What do you guys think about these items that I have found:
Geforce GTX 660 ti (vs my current Geforce GT 130M)
Intel i5 3570K (vs my current Intel Core2 Duo P8600)

What would be a good GTX 660ti card? [GV-N66TOC-2GD] (is there an ATI equivalent that would be cheaper?)
Motherboard? [GA-Z77-DS3H]
Memory, is 4 gb still enough these days? [BLE4G3D1608DE1TX0CEU]
SSD [SH103S3/120G] (120gb)
And finally a PSU [CP-9020060-EU] running 45A at +12v

I am on a budget at 10000 sek, it's been so long since I look on computer parts, I don't even know what to look for.

Edit:
for the sake of completion, I supply my complete list of components. If you have any input on something feel free to express yourself.


The Taffer (+TaffED)
A thief inspired game along with the mission editor (DBPro). [on hiatus]
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 17:16
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Quote: "Geforce GTX 660 ti (vs my current Geforce GT 130M)"


The 660ti is a good card, but maybe you should look into the 760 instead is that is replacing the 660ti and should have the same price

Quote: "Intel i5 3570K (vs my current Intel Core2 Duo P8600)"


Should also work well, you may want to look into a haswell (No idea of the number name) i5 as it is the latest version, I have no idea about the price of them though.

Quote: "Motherboard? [GA-Z77-DS3H]"


No idea, if it fits with the CPU, it should work I believe

Quote: "Memory, is 4 gb still enough these days? [BLE4G3D1608DE1TX0CEU]"


I had to upgrade from 6gb, but I do like having lots of programs running. I would go for 8 gigs as it is fairly cheap anyway

Quote: "SSD [SH103S3/120G] (120gb)"


Personaly I feel that 120 gb is a bit to small, but it depends on how much you want to spend

Quote: "And finally a PSU [CP-9020060-EU] running 45A at +12v"


It should be enough, but im not an expert
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 18:05
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I've got a GeForce GTX 650ti 1gb and love it, I usually get between 30 and 60 fps on highest settings on the latest games at 1920 x 1080. Depends on the title, the new Tomb Raider is the exception, if TresFX is turned on the frame rate drops significantly, still it looks absolutely fantastic without it.

For memory, I went 8gb, it's not that expensive these days. i5 is good, though I went for an AMD FX 6300 6 core 3.5 ghz, but I think the i5 is similar.

For storage I went 500gb, these days it doesn't take too long to fill up a large HDD due to the size of video games. If you wanted SSD you could have a HDD as a secondary drive.

As for PSU, I'm doing fine with 550w, so I suspect 600 would be sufficient.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 18:11
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Yes, you will need more than just one SSD, but I believe he already has that since he has 2 HDD in the code snippet
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 18:13
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Ah, I wasn't very observant then.

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Melancholic
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 19:02 Edited at: 30th Jun 2013 19:03
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With that budget here is what i came up with, you'll be hard pressed to find more performance out of a build than this for the same money, there are of course some draw backs, for example it only has 8gb of ram so you'll have to download some more, just go to http://downloadmoreram.com/ and sort yourself out, build is complete with all cables and stuff youll need.




I can count to banana...

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TheComet
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 19:04
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Quote: "Geforce GTX 660 ti (vs my current Geforce GT 130M)"


Oooh, the 660? that's not really a good choice, because it's incompatible with propitiatory incubation drivers. Should probably get at least two of these and connect them in parallel for twice the power: http://www.steg-electronics.ch/de/article/pny-quadro-6000-503978.aspx

Quote: "Intel i5 3570K (vs my current Intel Core2 Duo P8600)"


Gaming doesn't require a good CPU. You could probably even get away with this: http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Intel-Celeron-800-MHz-BXM80533B800128-Processor-/74029494

Might look old, but you can overclock it.

Quote: "Motherboard?"


Everyone knows big motherboards are better, because you can make yo mammaboard so fat jokes. This one is pretty cheap: http://www.steg-electronics.ch/de/article/gigabyte-g1sniper-5-152123.aspx

Quote: "SSD"


Yes! Get lots of these and hook them up using RAID0. I recommend something like this: http://www.brack.ch/hd-ocz-ssd-z-drive-rev-4-800gb-186742

Quote: "PSU"


Since you're not using a powerful CPU, you can cut right back with this. I found this on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Buck-Adjustable-Voltage-Regulator-Power-4-5-30V-to-1-25-26V-Power-Adapter-/350822013807?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51ae9f1b6f

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT: Water cooling! You need to first dismantle any fans you have in your case. Next, buy a lot of silicon glue and carefully seal all cracks on your case.

Once you're sure that the case is completely sealed and water proof, the only opening should be an empty slot where your DVD drive would go. Insert a garden hose and turn on the water. It will take a while to fill up the case, so you may as well make yourself a coffee.

Once full, you will have a completely silent computer!

Don't worry, water doesn't conduct electricity. I'm an electronic engineer and have studied electronics for over 5 years.

TheComet

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Melancholic
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 19:08 Edited at: 30th Jun 2013 19:12
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WARNING!

Whilst TheComet is correct you will need to also fit a expansion chamber to your pc as the water will expand once hot, similar mechanism to those found is older car radiator systems.


I can count to banana...
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 19:41 Edited at: 30th Jun 2013 19:43
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Quote: "ALSO VERY IMPORTANT: Water cooling! You need to first dismantle any fans you have in your case. Next, buy a lot of silicon glue and carefully seal all cracks on your case."


I don't have watercooling. I've got the fan on my GPU, the fan at the back, and 3 external fans on the top (I stole them from my laptop's cooling pad). I tend to remain at a cool enough temperature. Even in this hot weather, I pretty much played Final Fantasy XIV: ARR BETA all day yesterday constantly at full settings, have had long gaming sessions in Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR Borderlands 2, Skyrim (modded out with graphics mods) and some others.

Okay, perhaps there are better cooling methods than this XD but it does the job, usually get an average of 65 degrees centigrade ingame (which is cooler than my laptop with an inferior card). The card will tolerate up to 105c, but I wouldn't let it get anywhere near that.



I was tempted by water cooling myself, but I have no complaints about my set up.

Though to be fair, even without the 3 fans on top it stays cool enough.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 19:44
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Quote: "Don't worry, water doesn't conduct electricity. I'm an electronic engineer and have studied electronics for over 5 years."

But water from a garden hose does because it's not pure H2O.


Your build looks fine. The i5 is a great CPU that will keep up with an i7 in most day to day things.

I would go with 8GB of ram at least. I'm running with 16 right now.

600w should be fine with this build and graphics card.

I have 2 SSDs myself; a 240gb mushkin for my system drive and its awesome. Then another 120gb crucial as a swap disk simply because it was on sale that day and less than $100.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 20:11
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Quote: "I would go with 8GB of ram at least. I'm running with 16 right now."


Interestingly I was recently looking at how much it would cost me to upgrade to 32gb, it's a lot cheaper than I expected, Crucial are selling 32gb RAM upgrade packs for £220. I remember not too long ago selecting the option to go 32gb would break the bank.

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Lukas W
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Posted: 30th Jun 2013 23:07
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Quote: "The 660ti is a good card, but maybe you should look into the 760 instead is that is replacing the 660ti and should have the same price"

I was making comparision after I read this, and it looks like the 760 is indeed a better choice 760 vs 660Ti. It has even a same price tag >.> Might be worth it to consider.

MSI are good with graphics cards? [N760 TF 2GD5/OC] caught my interest.

Quote: "I would go with 8GB of ram at least."

This take me to another question regardin RAM. My chosen motherboard is asking 1.5V memory sticks. Is this very important? Also is a lower CL value better than a higher CL value? For example the 4gb stick I have chosen is CL8-8-8-24 (also 1.5v) whereas many 8gb sticks are CL9-9-9-24.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 00:02
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Am I the only one here that knows what TheComet is referring to?

Level 100 Forumer - 456,000 Health, 264,543 Keystroke Power.
Special Abilities: Flame Resistance, Troll Shield.
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Indicium
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 01:01
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Quote: "Am I the only one here that knows what TheComet is referring to?"


No.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 01:46 Edited at: 1st Jul 2013 01:49
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Quote: "Also is a lower CL value better than a higher CL value?"


It's a latency value, so technically speaking lower would be better. But I wouldn't worry about that or the other timing values. You can always check your motherboard's manual (look online) for a list of compatible ram sticks just to make sure.


And for some reason, I feel I need to point out that Comet is being sarcastic. If anyone takes his advice on water-cooling, you deserve what happens!

Btw, mine's water cooled and I've nearly pushed it to 5GHz.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 01:50
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Quote: "If anyone takes his advice on water-cooling, you deserve what happens!"
I use gasoline instead of water, it works great!
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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 01:51
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I hear gas will turbocharge your cpu

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TheComet
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 02:55
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Just for the record, and so someone doesn't completely screw up their future job interview by mentioning to fill up their case with a garden hose, my entire post was complete sarcasm and none of what I said should be taken seriously. Not even the part where I said water doesn't conduct electricity.

TheComet

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Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 04:31
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256GB SSD as a minimum, and go with a brand that has a 3 year warranty, preferably 5 years.

My favourite cases are by Fractal Design, and the best PSU's are by Thermaltake, mainly due to their after market & warranty service.

Help build an online DarkBASIC Professional help archive.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 04:35
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Quote: "Not even the part where I said water doesn't conduct electricity."


well technically, water doesn't conduct electricity... if it's 100% pure water. It's all the other particles in most water that conduct.

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TheComet
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 14:27
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You smart ass

Lets get back on topic

TheComet

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Melancholic
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 20:32
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Quote: "well technically, water doesn't conduct electricity... if it's 100% pure water. It's all the other particles in most water that conduct."


Not entirely true, even pure water conducts slightly (though with massive resistance) due to H2O dissociating slightly into [H3O]+ and OH- ions


I can count to banana...
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 22:17
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Never put water in your PC!!!!


...try ice instead.. it's cooler.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 00:01
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Quote: "Never put water in your PC!!!!"


No, it's better to put your PC in water.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:09
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This is the famous thread....

http://www.avforums.com/forums/computer-systems/56924-kramer-other-members-promoting-water-cooling-you-have-alot-answer.html

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Phaelax
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:29
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Omg someone can't really be that stupid can they?

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:38 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2013 02:38
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Quote: "Omg someone can't really be that stupid can they?"


They can't be stupid, the thread has one hell of a big hit 845,512.

If 'Gimme Da Codez' was still running it would probably beat it.

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TheComet
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 13:07
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It's fake. No one is that stupid.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/computer-systems/57008-you-must-really-honest-now-did-u-really-believe-i-drowned-my-pc.html

TheComet

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 18:45
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There are some extremely stupid people out there, you'd be surprised, but that one was an obvious fake, though I wanted it to be true, it seemed to over the top to be true.

But I think there are people stupid enough to think if they did use a garden hose it wouldn't cause a problem. I think anybody dumb enough to mix electricity and water (with it filling up with water) would be probably have difficulty string sentences together, let alone take a computer apart or even post on the internet, with the exception of Facebook maybe.

We've had some interesting dumb people call in work, but none as dumb as that mind you.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 19:00 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2013 19:02
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I had a Sony Music Deck in the 80's, and it said...

"Clean the tape heads with alcohol"

So I used wine, and the tape heads were sticky for months, and when I put a tape in it stuck to the heads, and tangled up all inside the player!

So that's true.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 19:11 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2013 19:12
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Talking of stupid, my Dad picked up a football t-shirt (think it was Newcastle Utd) that had the label, "wash when dirty"

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Lukas W
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 20:24
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Thank you for all tips and assistance. I decided on these parts:

MSI GeForce GTX 760 [N760 TF 2GD5/OC]
Samsung SSD 840 PRO (5year warranty) [MZ-7PD128BW]
Western Digital Blue [WD5000AAKX]
Intel i5 3570K [BX80637I53570K]
Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H [GA-Z77-DS3H]
Kingston HyperX [KHX1600C9D3P1K2/8G]

The Taffer (+TaffED)
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 05:09
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You missed "Chunk Of Ice"

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easter bunny
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 06:51
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I heard of someone doing technical support who once had someone call, asking why his graphics card wasn't working. After a while, the guy finally mentioned that he'd used an angle grinder to straighten it up because it 'didn't look quite right'

I reckon technical support would be an interesting [but frustrating] job......

Dodge those Balls, awesomest app on the Play Store
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TheComet
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 13:29
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Quote: "MSI GeForce GTX 760 [N760 TF 2GD5/OC]"


I know I made a crap post before, but listen to me. This is serious.

Don't buy this card. The GTX x60s aren't that much of a high performance card. In your case, buying the GTX 760 is a waste of money. If I were you, I would buy a GTX 480, which costs over 200 bucks less than the 760, but it has around the same performance.

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+760&id=2561
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+480&id=100

Save your money and buy something better in the future, such as the GTX 680, or even GTX 780.

TheComet

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Lukas W
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 15:00
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Here in sweden the 760 is cheaper than 480
cheapest gtx 480 vs gtx 760. On the other hand, a 680 is only marginally more expensive than 760 - with such an performance gain over 760 maybe it will be worth it.
Thanks for the heads up!

The Taffer (+TaffED)
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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 18:44
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Quote: " The GTX x60s aren't that much of a high performance card"

My gtx 560 does just fine with games and wasn't that expensive.

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TheComet
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 19:38
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Yes, but the price/performance ratio of the x60s generally isn't efficient. For example, the GTX 460, GTX 470 and GTX 480 easily out-perform the GTX 560, and cost (in Switzerland) 20$ - 40$ more.

TheComet

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Lukas W
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Posted: 6th Jul 2013 15:30
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Regarding overclocking,

The motherboard I chose is limited in voltage control (there is none) but people manage to stabilize the i5 3500k at 4ghz using stock voltages.

Will I notice any difference 3.4Ghz -> 4Ghz?
Will I need an aftermarket cooler for the cpu?

I'm not interested in watercooling, especially not using a garden hose

The Taffer (+TaffED)
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Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Jul 2013 16:53
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I have yet to see any CPU that requires more than the stock cooler. Unless you plan to overclock, you don't need one, but chances are an aftermarket would run a little cooler.

The 480 apparently uses almost 50% more power than the 560. Probably a good reason why I picked the 560 at the time.

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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Jul 2013 17:58 Edited at: 6th Jul 2013 18:08
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Quote: "Will I notice any difference 3.4Ghz -> 4Ghz?
Will I need an aftermarket cooler for the cpu?"


In my own experience, I've overclocked an AMD Phenom II x6 1090T from 3.2 GHz to 4.2 GHz, and I can't really claim I've noticed a difference when gaming. I did notice a small improvement when encoding videos, using Libre Office, and calculating fractals.

CPUs don't play THAT big of a role in gaming. All it does is perform I/O tasks such as user input, RAM<->CPU, GPU<->RAM, HDD<->RAM, and prepare things for rendering. The stock clock rate is more than enough.

So I wouldn't buy a water cooler unless you intend to do some intense CPU calculations. The fan shipped with the CPU is probably already enough, otherwise look for a good solid air fan.

Quote: "The 480 apparently uses almost 50% more power than the 560. Probably a good reason why I picked the 560 at the time."


That's something I didn't consider, good thinking Gamers will probably not factor in the power consumption, because the primary goal is performance.

TheComet

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jul 2013 18:43
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I have a question as well. I've got a 550W Corsair PSU on my desktop. In fact the specs are below:

CPU: AMD FX 6300 Black Edition
Motherboard Asus M5A97 R2.0
RAM: 8GB DDR3 1333mhz (2x4GB)
Hard Drive: 500GB S-ATAIII 6.0Gb/s
Optical Drive: 22x DVD±RW DL S-ATA
Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1GB
Sound card: Onboard 7.1 Audio
Case: Xigmatek Asgard 382 Window
PSU: 550W Corsair VS

Without upgrading the PSU, how upgradeable do you think my graphics would be? I went for a GeForce GTX 650ti with the aim to upgrade later. No problem upgrading a PSU, but I'm curious.

I assume I wouldn't be able to go as far as a Titan without replacing the PSU, but maybe something like a 760 or 770?

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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Jul 2013 19:16
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Hi Seppuku, I recommend checking out one of those PSU wattage calculators: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

See how much power your computer currently uses (without the graphics card), and subtract it from your current PSU wattage rating. The result will be the remaining power you could theoretically use for your upgraded card. GPU vendors always tell you the peak power that is required, so that's the number you need to compare with what you calculated.

Note that those PSU calculators are quite generous.

TheComet

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Phaelax
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 08:00
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Quote: "Without upgrading the PSU, how upgradeable do you think my graphics would be? "

I looked up the 650 and it has pretty lower power requirements, only asking for system with 400w. The card itself says it uses 64w, so I'd say you could probably handle a card up to about 150w

The 680 suggests a minimum 550w, 690 asks for 650w. I'd say you could probably buy any card with exception to today's top of the line cards.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 10:26
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The 680 is a pretty damn respectable card. Performance wise it just creeps up to the 770 and the specs are pretty sexy. A 690 would be pretty damn groovy though, I looked at the specs and it's very shiny, but probably a lot more than I would pay for a graphics card. You're paying about £750 for the 690 4gb, but £370 for the 4gb 680. When I've got the spare cash around I might actually be tempted by that upgrade to future proof my system a little.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 19:12
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In July last year, I bought a 2GB superclocked GTX 560 for $210. Now, I could get a 660 for the same price and it'd have a decent power boost.

Looking at benchmarks, the 690 costs $1k but the 780 is significantly more powerful and a few hundred less.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 20:09
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Im fairly cirtain that a single 780 is not better than a 690. The 690 is a dual 680 which a single GPU can not outpower yet
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 20:40
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Interesting how it fairs in that benchmark though. I was looking at the specs for the 690 and they are insanely high, I wonder why it didn't do so well in that benchmark, it's actually lower than the 680.

Still comparing the 650ti and 680, there's a significant difference in performance:

2,693(650ti) vs 5,697(680). Which makes it a tempting upgrade from my 550w PSU.

Quote: "In July last year, I bought a 2GB superclocked GTX 560 for $21"


Looking at price for performance, this card is actually of a very good value. As well as the 650ti (hence I went for it originally).


Another question, if I were to upgrade to the GTX 680,would I need to rethink some of my cooling? My 650ti is running beautifully at cool temperatures.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 22:15
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Quote: "Interesting how it fairs in that benchmark though. I was looking at the specs for the 690 and they are insanely high, I wonder why it didn't do so well in that benchmark, it's actually lower than the 680."


Are sure you wern't looking at 680 SLI which is also 2 680s, just 2 cards and not 2 GPUs.

If I remember correctly, the cores in the 690 are underclocked which would explain the 680 SLIs victory.

Also, 2 cards in SLI or 2 GPUs don't scale very well so you do loose some performance.
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TheComet
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Posted: 7th Jul 2013 23:42
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Quote: "just 2 cards and not 2 GPUs"


What's the difference between "card" and "GPU"? I thought "card" was just a slang term for GPU?

TheComet

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