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AppGameKit Classic Chat / When is the PC screen resolution setting coming?

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nz0
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 21:34
I am sure I saw this somewhere - setting the actual resolution for the screen instead of AppGameKit stretch drawing to the desktop resolution?

I looked again and didn't see it in the kickstarter stuff..

It's become my #1 issue at the moment, concentrating on a PC only release at the moment.

Markus
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 21:52
i read window resize will come.
full screen is ok for me because its the best view with 1:1 pixels.
maybe you can use zoom out in fullscreen or window mode as option.
in setup.agc the width & heigth is only for window size.
nz0
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Posted: 5th Jul 2013 22:18
Window mode? No chance..

I don't mind the stretch from 4:3 to 16:9 but stretching 1024x768 to 1920x720 isn't viable on lower spec PCs.

I've spent a while getting my game to run great on PCs without a proper graphics card, now it's just this resolution problem.

nz0
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Posted: 9th Jul 2013 23:00
Markus, where did you read it? Can it be confirmed?

thanks

Markus
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 00:20
Quote: "App Window Size
This feature will allow you to change the size of the app window at game run-time for Windows and Mac."

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tgc/app-game-kit-v2

what is the problem if u use a virtual resolution of 1024x768 on a 1920x720 screen? did you mean it is really slower?
nz0
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 03:15
The problem is although you draw to a 1024x768 screen, the renderer sends a (possible) 1920x1080 screen if this is the user desktop resolution.

Try your self - you will see

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 05:07
Unless you make the app full screen, in Windows (and Mac) it will be the resolution you specify (1024x768) exactly (plus the title bar). And there is no stretching issue.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Markus
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 09:40
nz0
jo, did you mean the upscale looks ugly?
the aspect ratio should be correct.
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 10:59 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 12:28
Hi nz0,

it isn't listed in the Kickstarter-thread, but Rick has mentioned he thinks it will be added in this post, in response to an earlier request.
nz0
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:08
AL: I was only talking about it being a fullscreen issue.

Markus: No, nothing wrong with the upscale itself, it's just a 1024x768 game needs to run in a 1024x768 fullscreen mode, not whatever resolution desktop the user has on Windows.

Zerotown: Yes, I think this was where I saw it. Rick, can you confirm where this change is at in the roadmap?

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:24
Quote: "it's just a 1024x768 game needs to run in a 1024x768 fullscreen mode"

I take it to mean that you expect the app to change the actual resolution on the PC. Bad idea. Unless the app remembers the original resolution and restores it, it is a problem. Also (and I have experienced this), if the app resolution is less than the current one, all desktop items will be repositioned and then not be right when the app closes.

What AppGameKit does is make the app the full screen and size up everything (like it does on other devices) but treats everything as if it were the original intended size. Internally the AppGameKit engine uses a multiplier (I suppose) to handle the different resolution issues (both in larger than and smaller than target resolution).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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fog
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:34
Quote: "I take it to mean that you expect the app to change the actual resolution on the PC. Bad idea."

It's a bad idea to behave like 99% of other games and other programming languages, including DBPro, do?

nz0 is right, this is needed.

nz0
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:41
Quote: "I take it to mean that you expect the app to change the actual resolution on the PC. Bad idea"


I disagree. Any PC game worth it's salt already does this (and always has since DOS days). The resolution is set back to what it was upon exit. Only "some" games screw up the icons - normally during abnormal closing.

The problem being is that many people can operate a hires desktop, like 1920x1080 for desktop apps but when running games, they set the game resolution in-game to something appropriate that their config can cope with or what the game was designed to run in.

For instance, I had a pretty good spec machine and can run most games in 1920x1080 with high settings. A lot of people don't but should they be forced to run a game in 1920x1080, that could well have been designed for 960x640 on mobile devices?

This way, I could make a game with 2 bouncing squares on it that requires an I7 and a £300 gpu just to run at 60fps, should the user wish to run a high res desktop....

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:04
The current method agk uses slows my game down from steady 60 fps to 30 when expanding the window.

So there is issues with how agk does it right now.

Android 2.3 , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz , Sony ericson arc 480x854 , 1 ghz
Android 4.0 , Dmtech 3g 9738B , 1024x768 , 9.7 inches , 1.2 ghz
JimHawkins
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 23:44
Nobody with any brains changes the screen resolution any more. You can use DirectX in full-screen mode at any resolution you want without messing with the desktop.

Anybody trying to run a 960x640 game full-screen is mad!

Far better to check to resolutions available and at least give users the choice.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
nz0
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:19
Really Jim? You think we should expect our game to run at 1920x1080 on PC, regardless? Not with AppGameKit we don't. It's just too damn slow for most people with modest kit.

Unfortunately, we aren't using DirectX here are we!

JimHawkins
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 09:58
Same thing applies with OpenGL. Users should have a choice of either running in a smaller window, or trying a setting, surely?

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
nz0
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Posted: 25th Jul 2013 01:23
Can we get an AppGameKit team comment on this issue please?
This is a major stumbling block for putting out PC games !

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Jul 2013 10:32
Not seen this thread before. Just wanted to add that I have a laptop with a 1080p screen. But I prefer to run games in 720p because that runs faster. BTW, I don't like PC games that doesn't support true 720p resolution.

nz0
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Posted: 8th Aug 2013 22:32
*bump*

Can TGC confirm what's hapenning here please.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 00:05
I still don't get this. Full screen means running at the current screen resolution. Actually, on all versions of Windows, you can do a StretchBlit() to an HDC created for 'DEVICE' (the screen), provided the aspect ratio of the source is the same as the target. It can still get a bit nasty if an un-handled exception occurs.

In the unspeakable event that you want to force a screen resolution change, it's import to iterate the DeviceCaps for the display, including the refresh rate, or you can mess the system up totally. And there's the little issues of multiple monitors and what do you do when the app loses focus?

Ultimately, something has to make your little pixels into big pixels. Performance is usually better if you provide reasonably sized varieties of graphics.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
nz0
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 01:05
Pick any game.

Set your desktop res to 1920x1080

Set the game resolution to 1024x768

Take a screenshot.
It will be 1024x768 and not 1920x1080

Similarly,
Play said game at 1920x1080. It crawls along
Set game res to 1024x768. It runs at 100fps.

All I want it to open a full screen at the resolution I choose and not be held to the desktop resolution.
In my experience, any partially serious attempt at creating a "proper" game is going to fail miserably for a large proportion of the target audience.

Zwarteziel
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 09:11
I'm still hoping this function will be implemented as well. I'd like to give a user control over the resolution at which my products run for the same reason that nz0 states. In this day and age, consumers often use monitors with large resolutions of 1920x1080. Defaulting apps to run on these native resolutions, however can result in incredible slowdowns. A lot of gamers are used to choosing a lower resolution than their monitor can actually handle, to help things speed up a bit.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 11:52
That is so true. My laptop is 1080p but most games are unplayable at that resolution.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 14:46
This is really only a T1 issue. T2/Pascal has full control of the window that's used for the OGL surface. Consequently it's easy to pick a format that will work on the monitor - letter-boxed of full extent - and if you want to force a resolution change you can.

But you have to handle a large number of nasties:

* You get an incoming Skype call.
* You click on a second monitor.
* Your program crashes and/or exits unexpectedly.
* You want to pause the program and send an email.

These are part of the many reasons that the DirectX team was formed - in competition with Microsoft's OGL team - to overcome many of the manifest shortcomings of OGL's architecture. It's all very well having a cross-platform hardware abstraction layer like OGL if it can perform well on a specific platform. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

There is no free lunch on this.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 16:14
Would it be possible to render to a smaller frame buffer and then upscale? This is what devs do on Ouya. Tegra 3 can upscale to 1080p with almost no hit to performance. Is that possible on PC? I have asked Paul to allow this on at least Ouya because it's really slow otherwise.

nz0
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 18:40
@Jim:
Quote: "This is really only a T1 issue"

Yes, of course it is (sorry, I was making an assumption there).

Quote: "* You get an incoming Skype call.
* You click on a second monitor.
* Your program crashes and/or exits unexpectedly.
* You want to pause the program and send an email."


I can only assume you don't play many games. Not too many gamers are going to think about sending an email in the middle of a game in my experience! Similarly, I play several AAA games where skype would break the game if a call came in. If you are using skype for in-game chat, simply make your skype call earlier.
These issues are acceptable for gamers - at least they can actually play the game in the first place.

Not knowing enough about OGL, but didn't directX just upscale at the GPU ?

Anyway, the ultimate issue is that we have a choice, because without it, 20-40% of your user base is lost before you start.

I have an example where my timer based updates failed on a laptop because operations that should have occurred in 1/60 second took over a second! This laptop should easily run at 100fps - and it does so in the desired resolution (1024x768) but runs more than 60 (sixty!) times slower at 1920x1080 !!

JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 19:51
Quote: "I can only assume you don't play many games. "


Err - yes I do. Quite a few.

Let's take Settlers 7 as an example:

* Scales perfectly.
* When an interrupting event occurs will minimise correctly.
* When restoring may have a few second where the DX Surface is lost, but comes back.

Same applies to the rather aged Titan Quest and its new incarnation Grim Dawn. Same applies to Flight Simulator.

Any game which slams my display into something else and is too stupid to handle exceptional states will be binned immediately.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
The Zoq2
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Posted: 9th Aug 2013 19:58
If a game crashes when I alt tab out of it, I would be really mad. Luckily most games survive it and the only game that has had issues for me latley is skyrim which you have to use the task manager to get back to the game after alttabing.

It is also true that being able to change resolution in games is realy important. Mostly because of performance (I almost doubbled my performance in ARMA 3 when reducing the render resolution to 1280x720 instead ov 1920x1080) but I believe that there are other reasons to do it (bigger text for example)

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Santman
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 01:20
I'm very confused about a lot of things in this thread. I have a game that isn't massively technical in it's demands, and is set to run at 720, however my desktop is 1080. If I hit the maximize button it fills the screen no problem and suffers absolutely no slow down at all (I know this as for debugging I have a constant on screen frame rate displayed). Also, if you look at benchmarks for almost any graphics card released in the last few years (Tom's hardware is excellent for this) then many, in particular the mid to high end ones, perform better with larger resolutions as they are designed at an architectural level to run that res (can't remember the name of the article, but they did a huge comparison and many AAA games actually ran a few frames faster at 1080p than 480p, depending on the game - shader based games seemed to benefit the most, like CoD).

I, like AL, am not really following why stretching a 720 window to a 1080 screen is halving your frame rate - that quite literally shouldn't be happening as to modern hardware that requires a miniscule amount of processing power, comparatively speaking. Have you tried various other configurations to see if you get the same result? If you can upload something I'll happily tell you if I see the same slow down.
nz0
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 01:31
AAA games are generally using DirectX, so no real comparison with say, OGL.

I'm suspecting that DirectX is leveraging the huge power of a typical graphics card of today, where scaling is relatively inexpensive.

I am unable to comment further on how AppGameKit deals with scaling and aspect internally. I have many testers who are feeding back regarding performance and I've used my own laptop to see for myself.

No, it's not halving frame rate on that upscale - it's over 60x slower (!)

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 01:45
Running an app in AppGameKit with setsyncrate(0,0) will do less FPS the larger the window gets. And I am not lying when I say that games that are slow in 1080p on my laptop runs much faster at 720p

Zwarteziel
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 09:41 Edited at: 12th Aug 2013 10:15
Quote: "I'm very confused about a lot of things in this thread."


It has become a bit complicated, to be sure. Currently, a selection of AGK-users is unhappy with the way AppGameKit handles different resolutions on (mainly) Windows. The following problems exist:

1. Setting a resolution is unwieldy and requires editing of the file 'setup.agc';
2. Once it is set, it can not be changed by a user - either ingame or outside;
3. If you've set the game to run 'fullscreen', it doesn't run it at the specified resolution, but instead scales to the size of your desktop.

The discussion in this thread focuses mainly on the problems that arise from point 3, but the the other items listed generate their own set of issues. For instance: Suppose I've set my game to run at a resolution of 1280x1024, but a player has a 1920x1080 display? He or she will always sees a large portion of the desktop when playing, (unless the 'maximize screen' button is pressed - but even then the taskbar shows). This kills immersion.

I understand that switching fullscreen-resolutions might cause issues with the desktop, but surely it must be possible to resize windows? I would really like to have more control over resolutions, like I had in DBPro. I hope AppGameKit will be able to switch resolutions (windowed and fullscreen) during run-time and without the use of the setup.agc-file in the future.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 12:20
Good post Zerotown!

Santman
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 13:27
Hmmmm, I'm focusing on android so I'll be honest I wasn't really trialing anything for windows. I don't have the world's best pc, but iit's not sloppy either, but I also have a very slow laptop. I'll have to test my program on that see if I get the same I think. This may rapidly become a concern for me.....
nickele
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 13:32
Theoretically speaking, could a temporary solution to the full screen/windowed problem in PC be a "settings" introductory program?

That would be a small executable running before the game that would allow the AppGameKit user to change the resolution (only for PC). The width/height/full screen values could then be written to the "setup.agc" file.

After changes, either the "settings" would execute the game, or the user would have to do it manually.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 14:11
Because we have a lot more control in C++ or Pascal I'll make a kind of test program to see what's possible. Then perhaps the results of various methodologies can be passed to TGC to see whether they can easily be incorporated into T1.

Will you be willing to run it? Otherwise, I won't bother!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
nickele
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 14:22
Sir JimHawkins, you would like us to test your C/Pascal compiled exe with an AppGameKit exe? We would be happy to do so.
Are there any other requirements apart from an AppGameKit compiled exe, in order to check the result? (eg. a specific DLL maybe, or a dotnet framework).
And thank you for your time.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 14:28
All will be in the package, nickele. Thanks.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 17:16
A launcher is a good idea if AppGameKit can't change the resolution while running. Or if images have to be reloaded.

Zwarteziel
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 19:38 Edited at: 12th Aug 2013 21:02
EDIT:
double post
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 20:33
Yes, a configuration-tool would be very helpful as an alternative. I'd be grateful and more than willing to test it!
nz0
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Posted: 13th Aug 2013 23:31
Doesn't address the original issue though.

Interesting that at least on my comp, I get a couple hundred more FPS on a 1024x768 game running at fullscreen on 1920x1080 than I do in a 1024x768 window.

Others though, it's catastrophically the other way around, even on an SLI gpu with an I7 cpu.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 13th Aug 2013 23:55
I'll start a new thread on this tomorrow. I've been experimenting today, and will do some more until we have an elegant test.

My initial (and probably wrong) conclusions are that setting an initial window size (say 50% of display size) and maximising it does not cause a significant drop in frame rate. Tomorrow, I'll make it border-less and set a few other flags, and it should be full screen at your chosen resolution without smacking the display settings.

I don't think there's a "one size fits all" solution to this - but a range of strategies would be useful.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
bjadams
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Posted: 14th Aug 2013 00:27
I remember trying to fix core.cpp (or some other internal agk cpp file) in T2 to achieve this effect in Windows but could not get it to work properly.

In DarkGDK I used to use the ChangeDisplaySettings (&newSettings, CDS_FULLSCREEN) winapi command.
Impetus73
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Posted: 16th Aug 2013 21:55
The android phones/tablets, that steals 80 pixels or so for a menu bar at the bottom, is my biggest problem, when it comes to selecting resolutions, and the device scaling it smaller... As an old Amiga coder, I need pixel perfection! Arghh.

----------------
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Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.
Santman
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Posted: 17th Aug 2013 01:53 Edited at: 17th Aug 2013 02:01
EDIT: This was totally the wrong thread!! Lol.

Sorry guys, I was following a "REPLY HERE" link in my email and I think I clicked the wrong one.
nz0
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Posted: 7th Oct 2013 12:36
Can the AppGameKit guys please respond to this thread?

I really need to know what the plans are for this.

thanks

Zwarteziel
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Posted: 7th Oct 2013 13:21
Good news! The latest Kickstater-update adresses this issue! (The video shows the ability to switch resolutions on the fly and mentiones it can also use a fullscreen-mode).
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 7th Oct 2013 14:32
We got full-screen already. The update is about switching within the code. Still no support to actually change the resolution of the screen.

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