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Geek Culture / set object effect

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mr Handy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:08
While you were setting object effect to get shadow mapping effect, they did this back in 2011.

Kinda depressing, right?



Kuper
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 03:13 Edited at: 20th Oct 2013 03:18
also check this.someone write similar plugin for unity
http://youtu.be/Z1o_CCHhBTQ
http://youtu.be/H1wkX3zffbU
Mobiius
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 13:08 Edited at: 20th Oct 2013 13:09
That hand is scary! Especially when it disappears into the shadows at 1:12. lol

Nice effects though.

Kuper
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 21:35
DBPro graphics are much much more scarier
mr Handy
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 22:33
Quote: "That hand is scary!"

Very!!!

Quote: "DBPro graphics are much much more scarier"

If you write ugly shader then yes.

Wolf
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 06:21 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 06:21
Quote: "DBPro graphics are much much more scarier "


Texture, light, mesh and shader compose whats generally seen as graphics. You must be inexperienced with one or all of these, otherwise you would not write this comment.



by Irradic.



-Wolf

http://www.serygalacaffeine.com
"absurdity has become necessity"
mr Handy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 11:07 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 11:08
Quote: "You must be inexperienced with one or all of these"

What You See Is What You've Done

But still, voxels are not available in DBP.

Indicium
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 19:08
Quote: "But still, voxels are not available in DBP."


Surely they are - voxels are an abstract idea that still relies on polygons, as that's how current hardware works.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
mr Handy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 23:58
I mean rendering the massive (voxel) data arrays is not available in DBP at playable FPS. It should be multi-threaded, or, better, be as an external plugin.

Kuper
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 17:20
Quote: "Texture, light, mesh and shader compose whats generally seen as graphics. You must be inexperienced with one or all of these, otherwise you would not write this comment."
LOL game engine is not the summary of shader, character models or good textures.Game engine must have a graphic core which give you opportunities to use al of them! And also scripting engine, resource manager and all what called SDK. If i create a stunning still picture it is all my achievements not game engine's.
baxslash
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 17:35
Quote: "But still, voxels are not available in DBP"

Voxels are as available in DBP as in any other language and can be displayed in 2D or 3D.

Quote: "I mean rendering the massive (voxel) data arrays is not available in DBP at playable FPS. It should be multi-threaded, or, better, be as an external plugin."

So what you are talking about is not voxels but 'a lot' of polygons?

Using LOD and a good voxel engine both of these statements are not correct. DBPro is totally capable of generating a large terrain built in a similar way to minecraft (for example) at a good framerate. It is hardware that is incapable of displaying what DBPro can generate.

DBPro is not as efficient as other engines but it doesn't mean a pretty decent voxel engine can't be built that runs well on a normal PC. Minecraft itself doesn't run particularly well most of the time...

oct(31) = dec(25)
Van B
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 17:59
There was a pretty nice demo made by Kevin Verbeek (Kevil) a while ago, basically a cave system that you cut out. He used voxels and memblock meshes to represent them. It was cool, but the sheer amount of data required for a decent size environment is pretty scary. I guess it's the same problem with Minecraft - it's an easy system to replicate so long as you discount the scale of things. Like, a typical Minecraft cave would probably run pretty well in DBPro, but then to get anything like the scale of the world in MC is asking a lot.

I'm a little bit sad that voxel terrains didn't take off - Delta Force 1-3 were great, the voxel engine gave much better results than polygon terrain... I wonder what we'd be doing with voxels nowadays if it panned out - and I don't mean Unlimited Detail, I mean an actual game engine with terrain we can dig up etc.

I am the one who knocks...
mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 18:02 Edited at: 24th Oct 2013 18:23
Quote: "It is hardware that is incapable of displaying what DBPro can generate."

So looking from the other side, incapable ~= unavailable. It is like a lvl 10 sword in your backpack when you are only lvl 1. No use.

Quote: "Game engine must have a graphic core which give you opportunities to use al of them!"

Now I should perform a tripleflip dual powerfacepalm.

A game engine is a complex application that runs all stuff inside the video game. The leading game engines provide a software framework that developers use to create stuff that engine runs. DBP is not an engine, as C++. Engine is a compiled application. You can use Lua to make scripts for DBP app on the fly, but you still need to add support for them, so you will write an engine core. DBP have everything you need to make an engine core, and some advanced features could be done as external plugins. Just take in mind that Bink plugin (runs ingame full motion video) is still in use, from HOMM3 to present day. Because developers are not so silly to write own video plugin when they can just plug one into the engine with ease. So some modern engines does not support FMV without third-party plugins. Same for Miles audio plugin, and many more.

Game engine can be outdated if it using some designed limitations, like size of the textures. It is done by design, the code itself is not limited. Who will write an engine with 100000x100000 shadow maps now? Nobody, this is silly. But 100 years later 4096x4096 shadow maps will be laughable. Also you must know about graphic "mods" for games, like texture mod, shader mod and so on - look at the Gothic 3 game, community patch added SSAO!

P.S. so yeah, DBP's slow perfomance is done by Lee's design. Meh.
P.P.S. spent 20 min on this msg

Kuper
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 21:09 Edited at: 24th Oct 2013 21:10
DBP is not clear language like C++. it is like a software development kit. As a result you dont have to write heavy code for displaying mesh on screen , you dont and you can control how shader data pass to your graphic card!All this most important things are already written and written to work very slow.
Quote: "A game engine is a complex application that runs all stuff inside the video game"
and DBPro dont? I have heard that you write single string "load object" for displaying object on your PC.
Quote: "DBP have everything you need to make an engine core"
- no you cant.You have no accses to internal proceses in DBPro. So you cant control for example how mesh is loading or displaying in your game.Only way to control it is to write external plugin.
mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 23:35
Quote: "So you cant control for example how mesh is loading or displaying in your game."

Control? What control? Flags? We have flags. Convert to fvf of any desired format? Yes We Can. Is DBO closed format? No, do whatever you like.

Quote: "So you cant control for example how mesh is loading or displaying in your game."

What? Shader controls the appearance of mesh. And low-level access from DBP. What control, again?

Quote: "Only way to control it is to write external plugin."

Then why so many games are using Bink, Miles, Granny, Havoc, Gamespy, Scaleform and most of Microsoft extensions and many other rare plugins? Oh no, it is so bad to use plugins!

Here what you have said:
Quote: "DBPro graphics are much much more scarier"

This is a false, everything you have done bad is your own fault. DBP does not make your game looks bad. DBP allows you almost everything, and something is not available only because of your lack of skills and knowledge. And if you think that C will allow you to be a pro coder just because it is C — no. You will do bad graphics in every language until you gain skills and knowledge.

Kuper
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 23:58
Quote: "And if you think that C will allow you to be a pro coder just because it is C — no. You will do bad graphics in every language until you gain skills and knowledge."
I didnt say that everybody must go to C. I said that DBPro has horrible perfomance and poor capabilities.Also it have tons of bugs and no updates for years.In fact its good for 2004 year maybe.
Quote: "What? Shader controls the appearance of mesh. And low-level access from DBP. What control, again?"
Some days ago I want to save cubemap from DBPrо and... What is it? It cant!! And were is your low-level access now? Maybe its time for me to write plugin for it? May be ill write letter to support and they patched it in few days?No! After it became free especially. But after all i find solution - save with Nvidia image tools usibg command line.After all have you ever tried to write something heavier then tetris on DBPro? Maybe you think it is 2004 today? Its 2014 soon.
mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 00:18 Edited at: 25th Oct 2013 00:26
Quote: "And were is your low-level access now?"

lock vertexdata

Quote: "Some days ago I want to save cubemap from DBPrо and... What is it? It cant!!"

You can't render 6 images and save them?

Oh my. Why just you came here to throw some crap at DBP when you even not good at knowing DBP?

P.S. Van B, if you reading this, do you know any good showcase with voxels on DBP?

Kuper
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 00:31
Quote: "You can't render 6 images and save them?"
CubeMap is a single image with mipmapping and so on
Quote: "lock vertexdata"
Its not crap =(( I love DBPro because of its easy style code but other engines go far far away when DBPro seems to be abandoned forever.
Van B
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 09:56
Quote: "After all have you ever tried to write something heavier then tetris on DBPro?"


Yes, what's your point?

Your failings <> everyone elses failings!

Mr.Handy, I doubt it's still online, but I'll see if I can find Kevil's demo, I might have it somewhere.

I am the one who knocks...
Chris Tate
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 12:46
Quote: "DBP is not clear language like C++. it is like a software development kit"


DBP is a programming language. If it is not a programming language, then what language exactly are we using?

mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 13:01
Van B
Oh, cool! I hope you'll find it.

baxslash
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 13:27
Quote: "After all have you ever tried to write something heavier then tetris on DBPro?"

I've seen and made much more complicated games using DBPro than Tetris that run fine on a 3 year old Netbook. I don't think you have a very realistic idea of what is possible using DBPro.

oct(31) = dec(25)
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 22:01 Edited at: 25th Oct 2013 22:03
Quote: "Quote: "Some days ago I want to save cubemap from DBPrо and... What is it? It cant!!"
You can't render 6 images and save them?"


What Kuper said.

It is very annoying to be able to create magnificent cube maps in DBPro but be unable to save them as a standard DDS format cube map.

That would be near the top of my "features to add" list.

Edit Actually you can save them - but you need to do all the work yourself as in my volume texture demo which Lee described in a Newsletter a while back.



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Rudolpho
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 22:17 Edited at: 25th Oct 2013 22:24
Quote: "I love DBPro because of its easy style code but other engines go far far away when DBPro seems to be abandoned forever."

DBPro was essentially made by what, two guys in a basement?
Meanwhile, from unity3d.com:
Quote: "Unity is a rapidly growing company with more than 300 employees from 30 different nations, working in 27 locations"


Then we have the price differences... lots of the high-end game engines costs thousands upon thousands of dollars for a (single) license and then they'll take a cut of whatever profit you make using them as well.


If you prefer it, go use Unity or CryEngine. Myself I tend to get annoyed at those because everything's already done for you and then you don't get to feel as much satisfaction from achieving something.
Also those engines really don't allow you to change their base functionality. DBP is open source and can be modified as you wish.
That said, yes it is written to be easy to use and somewhat extendible, not super fast and thus a lot more complicated.


"Why do programmers get Halloween and Christmas mixed up?"
Kuper
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Posted: 26th Oct 2013 03:16 Edited at: 26th Oct 2013 03:18
Quote: "That would be near the top of my "features to add" list."
and this list is getting longer and longer =( Also I get from Bamber's blog that there will be no great changes for DBPRO and all all the forces will be left to develop AGK2.
Quote: "Then we have the price differences... lots of the high-end game engines costs thousands upon thousands of dollars for a (single) license and then they'll take a cut of whatever profit you make using them as well."
I dont think that 1500 $ is great money for good working engine and support.You also forget that Unity have tonns of free assets and snippets so you never will make your game from scratch.

P.S. If Lee will decide to upgrade DBPro and this will be cost for example 100$ ill pay this money without a doubt.
mr Handy
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Posted: 26th Oct 2013 09:31
@GreenGandalf
Quote: "Edit Actually you can save them - but you need to do all the work yourself as in my volume texture demo which Lee described in a Newsletter a while back."

I've seen that. Pretty smart, but I would like to see an extended tutorial on dds headers and so on. Have any link?

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Oct 2013 12:00 Edited at: 26th Oct 2013 12:01
Quote: "but I would like to see an extended tutorial on dds headers and so on. Have any link?"


I just read up the DDS format in the MS DX9 SDK docs and proceeded from there (plus a bit of experimentation). Here's an extract to point you in the right direction. Make sure you use the formats for DX9 if you're using DBPro (I believe some details changed after DX9):





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mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Oct 2013 17:00
Thanks!

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