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Geek Culture / IT Qualifications

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 11:27 Edited at: 30th Oct 2013 11:30
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Sitting in a call centre listening to people moan and trying to find a job doing something better unsuccessfully has got me thinking about my career path, I've noticed a high number of IT-based jobs and one of the guys I work with ended up talking about his IT qualifications, how it got him work (he's working in a call centre because he wants to add 'technical support' to his CV) and it has had me thinking I should really be on the path to work in IT on some level. The ideal IT job for me would be technical author and I have found a few of these roles in my area for software based companies as there are a whole number of software companies in Cambridgeshire, most notably Jagex (of Runescape fame) and Red Gate (who deal with database & server systems and .NET development), who are both fantastic companies to work for. Most of the jobs in my area are C# & .NET based as well.

I'm not looking to get a degree, I've got one all ready, but am looking to get some certifications - my colleague's mentioned the CompTIA A+, which I will most likely go for, but of course am looking for C# and .NET certification on top. I looked at CompuTeach as they have a package containing certifications that seem suitable, but the price is steep - I either pay ~£1,700 up front or pay £150 monthly for 12 monnths, but it's all inclusive with support, exams etc. which when you think about it, isn't all that bad - just steep because I'm on the bottom of the wage bracket. But before I set myself in, I would prefer to shop around. I am using the 7 day trial of Computeach to see if it feels worth it.

But does anybody else have any recommendations of where to go? Ideally with certifications that will be recognised by an employer. Obviously UK based.

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baxslash
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 11:57 Edited at: 30th Oct 2013 11:58
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The best thing you can do is get a degree in computer science. If you can't go full time open university do one. I wish I had time and / or money to do it but with 3 kids it's really hard.

It will stand you in much better stead than any other course in IT in the UK, particularly if you get a 2:1 or higher.

Not sure but generally if you don't have a degree you will most likely be tested. I have 7 online tests to do for a potential employer at the moment, if you know your stuff you'll be ok if you have some experience. A lot of places will consider you for 'junior' positions with a little experience and no qualification but a degree is best really.

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Van B
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 12:42
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Your colleague is working in a call centre to boost his CV?

Seriously!? - come on, you know that doesn't happen!, working in a call centre on a CV is only marginally better than saying you've been unemployed. Call centre work is only useful if your applying for a job in a call centre.

A degree is the ideal situation, but if that's not possible, then maybe a MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer), as that covers servers, active directory, SQL admin, everything you would need to support a reasonable sized company.
The main benefit in an MCSE, is that word Microsoft at the start - it's recognisable as an IT qualification, much more than CompTIA A+ or whatever the heck they do. A MCSE course can also be a great place to make contacts, maybe even get a headsup on an available job.

I am the one who knocks...
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baxslash
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 12:59 Edited at: 30th Oct 2013 13:00
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Quote: "Call centre work is only useful if your applying for a job in a call centre."

I guess it depends on what level of support he is providing. There are tiers of IT support that you can progress through in call centres. It does depend on whether it's an IT support call centre or just a complaints line for hoover bags.

Yes, I forgot about the MCSE. Good shout.

oct(31) = dec(25)
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 21:39 Edited at: 30th Oct 2013 22:09
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He's going for a couple of interviews this month. From what I understand, perhaps I am wrong, but he's wanting to show he can do technical support, his job is dealing with mobile phones specifically and he offers support from a customer point of view, given his IT experience is mainly customer focused I suspect it makes sense. If he's wanting to get into say, being a systems administrator, then probably not. Skills for a support line of course aren't just in 'knowing what you're talking about', but having the skill of dealing with people with an appropriate telephone manner and having the patience to do it. Granted his support doesn't go into instructing engineers how to fix a mobile phone.



As for the Computer Science degree, I realise it's the best thing you could possibly go for to offer the best opportunities. But not a viable option given cost. It'd be £15k, I've already got a degree, so no loans from government and I don't fancy getting into more debt with student financing. In hindsight, I wish I did a joint degree with Computer Science, but of course, I thought my degree would be sufficient to get a job doing something I want to do at the time I started. Not having to deal with the job market I suppose made it difficult to judge exactly how difficult it is to get a job doing x, y and z.

However, MCSE sounds like a good idea as an alternative. At the end of the day I want to get a job doing something I enjoy using the skills I've developed, if certification helps me along the way, then great. The biggest challenge I've found looking into technical author roles is that I can at best back myself as a hobbyist programmer and computer geek, which could mean I'm a crackpot who thinks he knows what he's talking about. I can really sell the writing side of things, but the technical? Not so much, I have skills but nothing to back them up and of course, I don't have all of the skills for IT-based jobs.

Ceritifcation at least gives me something concrete to say I'm not crazy.

Anyhow, I'll look into it. Also looks like Computeach also offer Microsoft Certifications as part of their programs (like they do with a CompTIA), but I will research before I start anything to make sure I am happy with the qualifications, perhaps even speak to IT-based companies in the area for what they like to see in candidates. Perhaps call Redgate who turned down my technical author application, at least shows my interest in the company and that I'm not applying for jobs blindly.


Cheers.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 23:36 Edited at: 30th Oct 2013 23:48
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There is nothing a degree won't teach you that you can't actually teach yourself. The only thing a degree will give you is a foot into the interview, but if you don't know your stuff past that point then you are buggered either way!

If you don't have a degree, there are tonnes of books/online resources that will teach you all you need to know about computer science.

After that point, I'll say this:
Portfolio, portfolio, portfolio (sing it in the style of Steve Ballmer).

Often software engineering jobs will ask for 'degree or equivalent experience' and the only way to show that is to have a solid portfolio.

This can include things like personal projects, Open source contributions etc etc.




The time has never been more perfect to actually go out and teach yourself computer science. Sites such as:
https://www.edx.org/
https://www.udacity.com/
https://www.coursera.org/

Have just sprung up out of nowhere and offer some pretty decent courses on computer science related topics.

Harvard, Stanford (and I forget who else) have also had lectures up on iTunes U for ages:
http://itunes.stanford.edu/
http://www.harvard.edu/itunes


There are also places that offer purely developer training for specific languages, such as:
http://www.lynda.com/

I cannot stress enough just how amazing lynda.com is. It is well worth the 25$ a month subscription fee!



So yeah. Who needs a certificate these days?
If you've been in the industry long enough, you'll know that a degree means diddly squat in the real world (for computer science anyway). Its not completely useless, it does make you into a much more conscious computer scientist/software engineer. But a lack of a computer science degree doesn't mean you are worth less than someone with one!



Coursera are about to start a module on Automata:
https://www.coursera.org/course/automata

Out of all the modules I took during my degree, Automata was one of the ones that was most enjoyable and also most useful in the real world. It does a great job of turning your brain into computation mode.
Its useful for things like Regular expressions, pattern matching and even just computation as a whole. A Turing machine is an Automata for example!

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Phaelax
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 23:42
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Quote: "he's working in a call centre because he wants to add 'technical support' to his CV"


*cough* BS *cough*

People work in a call center because they haven't found anything else.


A+ cert I think is worthless. Granted I was turned down from an interview solely based on the fact I didn't have that certification. They didn't care I taught A+ or knew a million things beyond what it teaches. But that just shows the kind of people I would've been working for.

I'm currently working on my CCNA, but I already have my BS.

http://zimnox.com
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 23:53 Edited at: 30th Oct 2013 23:58
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Quote: "They didn't care I taught A+ or knew a million things beyond what it teaches. But that just shows the kind of people I would've been working for."


Exactly! There is nothing worse than having to work with someone because they have certificate A or degree B and its clear from the get go they have absolutely no idea what they hell it is they are doing. And if you work for someone who puts so much stock in pieces of paper, you'll be surrounded by people with excellent pieces of paper and some of them won't have a clue what they are doing!

Getting a 1st in Computer Science at University A may sound good on paper, but the assessment systems at Universities are incredibility broken, so much so that a 1st in Computer Science could mean just about anything (it could mean that you are really good, but it can also mean that you don't have the first idea when getting into the hands on stuff). I didn't even attend half my lectures and hardly handed in any coursework, and I still got a 2:1!

Fortunately for my employer I spent all my spare time teaching myself the stuff my University wasn't teaching me. And working on my own projects to make sure I had the experience I needed to enter the professional world.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 00:14 Edited at: 31st Oct 2013 00:17
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Quote: "
Quote: "he's working in a call centre because he wants to add 'technical support' to his CV"

*cough* BS *cough*"


I know it sounds like it. I know how he got the job, why he was looking and why he took the opportunity. I would say it was a simple case of "I want to work in a call centre to get into IT", it's out of context. I could probably sit and put everything into context, but I think it's irrelevant.

Quote: "A+ cert I think is worthless. Granted I was turned down from an interview solely based on the fact I didn't have that certification. They didn't care I taught A+ or knew a million things beyond what it teaches. But that just shows the kind of people I would've been working for."


Sounds like people with little knowledge in IT. I think this is probably why it's a good idea I contact employers in the area too, maninly IT based ones, mainly the ones I wouldn't mind working for and see what's important to them. I suppose if they wanted somebody lesser with a qualification who may not know as much, then it's their loss. I know when it comes to recruitment, it seems a bit of paper is what is important to demonstrate what you know, because it's a form of evidence. The amount of jobs asking for a qualification or experience doing something is quite high. I suppose, it's a way for recruiters to sift through the wannabes away from potential candidates, obviously a flawed system. Turning you away for that reason at interview stage, of course, ridiculous.


Also BigAdd, cheers for the information. I can see a portfolio being useful of course. Regardless, I can see the advantage of having a bit of paper to say I'm certified. Also, I could probably learn more from the courses that offer certification. From the way I understand things from a recruitment perspective is that you will have a number of 1 page CVs to sift through and you'll need to pick candidates who look like they'll be able to do the job and decide who to call. I can see certification help in that respect, when it comes to the interview stage, that's when you can show you know what you're talking about - for that, there's a lot of resources and of course the ones you've posted will no doubt be valuable.

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Indicium
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 00:42
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Quote: "I didn't even attend half my lectures and hardly handed in any coursework, and I still got a 2:1!"


Oh thank god, this is the way my first semester is going. Nothing to worry about then.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 01:56 Edited at: 31st Oct 2013 02:08
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Quote: "Oh thank god, this is the way my first semester is going. Nothing to worry about then."


Its still worth going for at least a 2:1 or a 1st, because it does help getting your foot in the door for an interview.

But I strongly suggest spending quite a bit of your free time practicing what you learn/learning new things that they aren't teaching you.

You have 3 years in a computer science degree. That is a huge amount of time to build up an extra set of skills they don't teach! That is whats going to separate you from the rest of the people in your degree!


The reason I didn't turn up to lectures is because I was often a semester ahead in the material. Lectures were too slow paced and they wanted me to sit in a room for an hour or two looking at slides, when I could easily be at home and be learning by doing.



Quote: "Also BigAdd, cheers for the information. I can see a portfolio being useful of course. Regardless, I can see the advantage of having a bit of paper to say I'm certified. Also, I could probably learn more from the courses that offer certification. From the way I understand things from a recruitment perspective is that you will have a number of 1 page CVs to sift through and you'll need to pick candidates who look like they'll be able to do the job and decide who to call. I can see certification help in that respect, when it comes to the interview stage, that's when you can show you know what you're talking about - for that, there's a lot of resources and of course the ones you've posted will no doubt be valuable."


It depends on the employer. If it was me I'd be more interested in what you have done in your spare time. Its a good indication about how much you enjoy your work and how diverse your skill set is.

If someone came to me with no piece of paper and someone came to me with a piece of paper then I'd probably be more interested with the guy with the piece of paper.

If however someone came to me with a super special piece of paper who hasn't done anything other than achieve their piece of paper and then they were up against someone who has written a couple of games in their spare time, worked on a few open source projects, made some websites. I'd be interested in the last guy.


There are values to having that piece of paper for sure. Its that one extra thing you have over the next guy. Just don't put all your eggs in one basket.

If someone one day decides my piece of paper is worthless and I've spent all my time earning it I'm completely buggered. Nobody however, can take away my portfolio/experience.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 02:26 Edited at: 31st Oct 2013 02:27
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Here is a really cool video that explains how regular expressions can be described using finite automata.


Its only 6 minutes long, but you can immediately see how computers can evaluate complicated regex strings and pattern matching.
Thinking about regex as state machines can help you write some complicated regex patterns too!


I just find it so cool! I was really into semantics/automata/discreet mathematics during my degree!

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baxslash
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 09:41
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Quote: "Its still worth going for at least a 2:1 or a 1st, because it does help getting your foot in the door for an interview."

Often getting a foot in the door is the hard part. It's no good knowing if you can't prove you know. Getting to the interview often requires that you meet the minimum requirements.

It's easy to say you don't need qualifications when you have them. I would say a great portfolio is fantastic if you get to show it to someone and some kind of qualification (if you have no experience) can give you the chance to show your great portfolio.

I have not even been interviewed for jobs I could do because I didn't have the qualification and either the recruiter or the employer couldn't see past the fact I didn't have the degree. I know from experience that it matters. I took a 30% pay cut largely because of it.

oct(31) = dec(25)
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 10:21
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Quote: "Often getting a foot in the door is the hard part. It's no good knowing if you can't prove you know. Getting to the interview often requires that you meet the minimum requirements.

It's easy to say you don't need qualifications when you have them. I would say a great portfolio is fantastic if you get to show it to someone and some kind of qualification (if you have no experience) can give you the chance to show your great portfolio.

I have not even been interviewed for jobs I could do because I didn't have the qualification and either the recruiter or the employer couldn't see past the fact I didn't have the degree. I know from experience that it matters. I took a 30% pay cut largely because of it."


Thats the sad state of the industry. It should be this way but it is.

But because of that, there is no point putting all your stock in them, especially if you can't afford them! University is £27k now just for tuition. I think pretty soon there will be a bit of a revolution (in the UK at least) when people start asking if degrees are actually worth anything like they used to be.


My degree cost me around £15k and I feel that it did not in any way shape or form prepare me for the real working world, which at the end of the day, should be what a degree in part does!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 10:51 Edited at: 31st Oct 2013 10:52
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Yes, I don't think I was in the least bit prepared, plenty of skills, transferable ones, but saying I've got a degree has almost been worthless,for some applications I even omitted the fact I had one where a degree was not required so I'd at least get a job. I've got a great portfolio, but never even had the opportunity to show it off. Employers are worried if you're overqualified that you'll run off at the first opportunity, I was even asked that in my Cash Converters interview, but they didn't keep me permanently in the end.

I did get a permanent job in the end, but for my job all I really require is some GCSE's. I earn £12k, not the £20k+ that was sold to me as a starter for graduates when having career talks at school. When I go to a recruitment agency and suggest I would mind a job to start on £16k they tell me I'm aiming high for a man with my level of experience. Yet there's job with a higher pay bracket I know I have the skills to do, but not the credentials or experience to get me to the interview stage where I can really prove my worth. Trouble is, there's a lot of competition and graduate unemployment is high, so in that respect I am thankful I have a job and that I like the people I work with, but I just hate the job itself.

This is why I'm considering IT, despite it not being my original career goal, but I enjoy it, find it interesting, there's a lot of jobs, it's a growing market and there's certifications I can get to stand out when I hand in my CV.

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Van B
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Posted: 31st Oct 2013 11:37
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I was kinda lucky, couldn't find anything worthwhile after college (HND in IT) so I took a job working in a vegetable processing place, sitting at a conveyor belt, flipping over bags of carrots - basically doing a job that a machine could do, but it's just cheaper to have me sitting there, turning to cheese.

Anyway, I heard about a small fabrication company who needed a technical clerk, so I got an interview and luckily my IT skills and technical drawing O'Level got me the job.
Then I spread out like a virus, writing systems anywhere that needed one, bespoke software, CAD tools etc etc. In hindsight I should have probably stayed there and went onto more project management and engineering, but I left and am now an IT engineer in a semiconductor plant, all my systems spread out like tendrils, just like the last place. Working towards an MCSE so that I can go onto IT management.
Anyway I'm on a decent wage, have unrivaled job security (tendrils), and I don't have a degree and don't see the need. Years of experience is more valuable than a degree, whether recruiters see that or not - but as people have said and you know yourself - getting a foot in the door is the tricky part and often a degree is the only real way.

What I don't get, is why you don't just find an entry level position in a smaller company that's hoping to expand. Technical clerk lead onto all sorts of things - if you can show a willingness to learn, show some solid skill sets, then you will progress - but the more you progress, the more you move into job security and opportunities... you just have to get into a company and start growing some tendrils.

I still remember the people at the veggie processing place, blowhards who are only there temporarily, are there but just as soon as X Y and Z happen they'll be running the place, are there but don't need the money, are there but have a degree. For all I know some of them are still there, because they have tunnel vision and procrastination to keep them there. Sometimes the best move is just to move sideways and find an easier path forward. Also, don't always rely on an employment agency, these guys cost a lot of money that some companies just won't spend - I got out of veggie produce by word of mouth. Heck, the money wasn't even any better but the path was a lot clearer which made it worthwhile.

I am the one who knocks...
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Nov 2013 17:22 Edited at: 12th Nov 2013 18:30
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Okay, what I've decided I'll do is go for the Microsoft Certifications, I'm doing a trial at the moment for MCSE before I decide to give up some money. CompuTeach was a nice idea, but I have done my research (and looking at competitors too) and found a lot of issues with such e-learning, granted they offer recognisable certifications, but in fact, from reading reviews, I would personally stay away from CompuTeach altogether.

MCSE seems like the better alternative.

From there, what I can do is get some other certificates, Reed offer MCTS courses and also MCSE, which should tick my C# and .NET boxes on top of the MCSE. In the process, I build up a portfolio and hopefully seal the deal and of course, talk to potential employers in the process to express my interest. I might seek a simple admin job whilst I'm working through these as I dislike my current job that much.


Courses that interest me, I'll inquire about pricing:

http://www.reed.co.uk/courses/mcts-net-framework-4-windows-application-development/21710#/courses/reedcouk/p77/microsoft

http://www.reed.co.uk/courses/mcse-2012-microsoft-official-exam-and-free-retakes/24103#/courses/microsoft-certified-systems-engineer-mcse

http://www.reed.co.uk/courses/mcts-net-framework-4-web-applications/21701#/courses/microsoft-certified-technology-specialist-mcts

Alternatively, I suppose I could learn the content without the courses and just pay for the exams via MS. I'll take a look.

Cheers for the advice, it has been most useful.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Nov 2013 19:58 Edited at: 27th Nov 2013 20:01
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Update:

I've decided I'd go with MCTS - .NET Web Applications. It assumes I have prior programming knowledge (and I already know how to code in C#), which allows me somewhat of a headstart, vs. if I went for the oh-so-expensive Computeach.

I started the course today and am currently laying the groundworks for ASP.NET, which I've always fancied learning anyway. Bigg Add mentioned portfolios, this to my mind would be a great way to get started and to apply what I'm learning as I'm learning, obviously create a ASP.NET website for my CV/Resume followed by my own Seppuku Arts website (currently relies on a CMS) and my guild website for FFXIV (which relies on Enjin.com).

They suspect I could do the exam in Jan/Feb time if I stick to the course at a decent enough pace and I will start applying for jobs around then. I will probably build on top of that MS Certification as I go along, but if this one gets me my job and gets me out of working in a damn call center then I will be a happy bunny anyway.

Reed also threw in their Careers/job hunting skills course for free, which I suppose was nice, generally I like to think I've been doing the right thing, but it's free and it might have me think of something I've not considered, so no harm in it.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2013 16:20 Edited at: 28th Nov 2013 16:20
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Sepp, Gambatte! Jia You!



We are here if you need help or advice!

Are you doing these courses through Reed? how much is the course if you don't mind, I think getting a book on the subject is cheaper... as you said, you could just apply for the course exams directly...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Nov 2013 18:01 Edited at: 28th Nov 2013 18:02
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Aye, I actually looked up the books for this particular exam and the general consensus from reviews has been...they're not very good. Apparently they don't help a lot.

I am doing the course from Reed, the learning method I find much better to digest, I am a better visual learner. I would say the price is pretty much what I'd expect, it was around £500, there's some tutor support available and of course exam fees are included. It's about the norm for those types of courses. Reed actually has quite a decent selection of course for various qualifications and certificates. And of course a lot of recruiters use Reed (when I worked in a temp. recruitment job, Reed was a godsend for getting suitable applicants).

Reed are a recruitment agency, so when it comes to recruitment advice with the courses in mind, I feel it's somewhat reliable. I did take what the course sales adviser did say with a pinch of salt (she works in sales, 'nuff said) but did my research based on local employers. As far as I can see, this ticks some of the right boxes.

And I see it more cost effective than, say, Computeach, which offers a 1 year subscription for £150 a month you can't cancel, whilst you do get access to multiple courses for that, there was no way I was going to go down that route. If I didn't like it, I was buggered with a subscription of £150 a month, at least with Reed there's a cancellation period and special circumstances should I struggle financially and of course, I'm buying the course, not subscribing.

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Indicium
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Posted: 28th Nov 2013 20:50
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Quote: "Computeach, which offers a 1 year subscription for £150 a month you can't cancel,"


I find it hard to believe you can't cancel within a certain timeframe if you're not happy with the service.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2013 21:33
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£500 I could learn a lot with that much.......

I did not mean the course material... I meant books dedicated to the languages and tools you intend to work with...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Nov 2013 22:46
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Quote: "I find it hard to believe you can't cancel within a certain timeframe if you're not happy with the service."


There's probably a clause for it, but the webchat conversation I had with one of their agents pretty much suggested you can't cancel the subscription, I've read various reviews of people's experience, some good, but others bad, mostly it seemed most people's grief was with how their payment schemes work. Frankly, I don't think it's worth the hassle. If I were made redundant in 3 months and struggle to get a job then I'd be sat with a direct debit of £150 a month. Or if I was for example unable to study for a period (say, if I was majorly ill), I'd be wasting money and that time lost couldn't be reclaimed as you lose all material once your subscription has ended.

Quote: "I did not mean the course material... I meant books dedicated to the languages and tools you intend to work with..."


Aye, but I'm happy paying £500 for the exam and to be prepared content wise for said exam. I guess it's the price of convenience in that sense. The same could be argued for a plethora of courses people take, heck, one in theory needn't pay for education due to the vastness of information found on the web, but there are advantages to paying and it's a question of what you deem is a worthwhile investment. If it helps me pass the exam quicker and in turn helps me get the job I want, then £500 is peanuts. Junior ASP.NET coders in my area tend to start between £18k-£20k, which would be a decent pay rise from my call centre job.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 1st Dec 2013 17:59
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Anyhow, as per Bigg Add's recommendation, I have been checking out Lynda.com and my verdict is that it is an amazing site. I'm using their beginner session for ASP.NET to give me some of the background knowledge specific to ASP.NET for the course, as the course does assume working knowledge of the language. I can see myself ending up using the site a lot, even after I get pieces of paper to wave in front of potential employers' faces.

So anybody else reading this thread, take that as a recommendation. Previously my favourite training site was 3D Buzz, but this has a lot more on there and is pretty well put together.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 1st Dec 2013 22:42
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Nicely done Sir Seppuku of Artsfordshire.

Lynda are great indeed. 25$ a month is a ruddy steal for amount of information you can cram into your brain thanks to their awesome courses.

I find they are good for the early stages of learning something new (which is often the most difficult part). Once they have you on your feet its fairly simple to master what you've been taught.

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