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Geek Culture / Code that generates copyrighted art - is it legal?

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Seditious
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 07:35 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 07:36
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I was just thinking about how one could make a media-less clone of a game by recreating the art using algorithms in place of image files, and distribute just the source code that others compile themselves, which means technically no redistribution of original media, which would at least get around copyright issues.

Would this be legal? Can someone be prosecuted for distributing instructions for recreating copyrighted works?

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 08:31 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 08:43
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Quote: "Would this be legal?"

Only if it distibuted in small amount for educational purpose.

Everything in the game is copyrighted - title, names, levels, objects' look, art, sound etc...

How would you recreate a soundtrack? I bet you will get same sound wave.

P.S. just mail the copyright holder, every company could answer differently.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 08:57
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That's an interesting question. Would it be illegal to own the code and distribute it? Would it be against the law to run the code? Would it only break the law once the code was run? If running the code was the illegal part then would the owner of the computer be liable or the coder?

As far as I am aware copyright does not protect a process so it would not cover a description of how to draw a logo, for example, it would only protect the image itself.

They could take out a patent describing how to draw the logo but then someone could find a different way to draw the same logo, but the resulting image would still break the copyright.

So who is responsible? I could draw a replica of the Coca-Cola logo in Inkscape but the developers couldn't be held responsible for that. There's actually quite a good example of that, which is Pro Evolution Soccer: for years now the developers have included a kit editor to allow people to create kits and distribute them to others, obviously the most popular idea is to make all the kits Konami couldn't get licensed and distribute them. Is this Konamis fault? Should they regulate what people use and share in the game? Do the copyright holders have a claim?

If it is the responsibility of the consumer because they chose to download or create these kits then couldn't Konami equally just make all the kits and give an option to the player, "Do you want to install unlicensed kits? Konami does not take responsibility for you using unlicensed kits.", then is it the player's responsibility because they chose to use the unlicensed kits and otherwise they would not have appeared in the game?


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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 09:04
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Quote: "idea is to make all the kits Konami couldn't get licensed and distribute them"

Hey that's smart.

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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 09:22
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I don't think you could "pass the blame" for breaking the law to a computer program. Think about other examples:

A program that hacks away at user/passwords until it gets into an account and then steals money etc.

A program that finds and decrypts confidential government data

A program that automatically posts defamatory statements to Twitter

The responsibility always lies with somebody. On top of that, IP laws prevent likenesses of the protected property from being created. If your program created Mario, you would be liable.

In a 3D game there is no Mario, but there is a series of instructions (an algorithm)on how to create a 3D mesh and texture it so that it becomes Mario. That is essentially what you are talking about doing. They are both algorithms.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 09:27
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So is it the code that is illegal or the running of the code? In the UK it is legal to buy and sell any quantity of hemp seeds but it is illegal to grow the plant!


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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 10:07 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 10:08
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I guess it depends on your intention and awareness.

If the seeds said "Grow your own plants" and that is all you were told, then you wouldn't be expected to know that growing them was illegal.

I recently bought M$ Office legitimately but the product turns out to be illegitimate. Now I know it is a pirated copy I'd be just as liable if I continued to use it.

[EDIT]
It may also come under "derivative works". You can't take a copyrighted work of art, change it and take ownership of the derivative (e.g painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa).

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 10:35
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It can't be black or white. You did run the code? Did you know that the code is illegal or not? Everything is relative.

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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 11:04
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Quote: "It can't be black or white"


It can be black or white
I bought the product
I installed it
I entered the product key from the card in the box and it ran
30 days later it deactivated itself, this is the first I knew that it was illegitimate. I bought it from a high-street shop, but via the web.
I checked the product key with M$ and at this point it was confirmed to me that it was an illegitimate product key
I have uninstalled the software.

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Seditious
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 11:14 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 11:15
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Well, to my knowledge it's not illegal (or at least you won't get prosecuted) to write a piece of software that uses copyrighted media if it's for personal use ie. you don't distribute it. Even if it is illegal no one is going to know (or care), so for all intents and purposes it could be considered legal.

As an example of my idea imagine creating a clone of Mario, or at least a game that uses his likeness. Obviously you can't use the original media (copyright), but what if the sprite was generated from a plain (albeit verbose) English 'description' interpreted by the engine?

My questions are:

1) Ignoring trademarks, would I not be allowed to distribute this game that programmatically recreates the copyrighted sprite?

2) Would it make a difference if I released the game as an executable (ready-to-play) game or as source code that needs compiling?

3) Am I not allowed to distribute a piece of my own original code that recreates copyrighted art using algorithms?

4) What about a text document detailing the colours of each pixel?

5) What about reading out loud (in a public place) the RGB values of each pixel of a copyrighted work?

As you might have guessed these are rhetorical questions. I think it's an interesting topic.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 11:15 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 11:21
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@BatVink
I mean if you know that you are using illegal soft, you are guilty. But if you was fooled, you are not. So saying that user always guilty for running illegal soft is not right, so no black and white.

Quote: "it's not illegal (or at least you won't get prosecuted) to write a piece of software that uses copyrighted media if it's for personal use"

Not sure. It's just nobody will know about it And not legal for use in commercial companies, for sure.

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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 13:04
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@MrHandy I think we are agreeing with each other, but misunderstanding each other's explanations

It's all a very interesting topic and I'm sure that lawyers for each side could battle it out in a court for years and years. My personal opinion, but not founded on absolute knowledge, is that it's not legal, but you'd have to be very successful to be seen as a threat to the IP. You might still expect a cease and desist letter though.

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 13:35
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Copyright protects against distribution of protected media, if you don't release anything with that media then it's not a thing.

Really, the methods by which the copyrighted media is created means nothing - we could just say that any compressed image format does the same thing, it generates the media from encrypted data - no different to generating the media from code.

It boils down to the individual companies involved... some companies will nab media from wherever they can get it and not care too much if people nab it from them in return - but some companies will get lawyers involved even if your game has a passing resemblance to their IP. Some companies IP is worth millions in revenue and has to be protected. I mean, what would happen if Nintendo let people make Mario games for any platform - instantly their share price drops through the floor (further I mean).

Personally, I think that if an artist takes their own digital images and makes textures or whatever from them, or makes them from scratch - they have the right to protect that work.
But if an artist googles for a base texture, the shouldn't have the right of protection, because they can't guarantee that the originator of the base texture is protected. If it's out there then it has to be public domain, even if it has a watermark you should still be allowed to legally use any media that is made directly available online. That's not the case, and we are in the same situation that we've always been - the company with the most lawyers ultimately calls the shots.

I've had media nabbed before without notice, permission etc for a commercial game, but if I went and uploaded my textures somewhere, I might get in trouble for that. That's one messed up situation. I doubt very much that the company involved would do anything, or even care very much - but we can't assume anything. It's a can of worms and copyright lawyers make good money from it and big companies can have their own way everytime, us little guys don't stand a chance, we have to steer clear of questionable content and forgo justification sometimes.

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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 13:40
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I don't know if you guys have heard about a game called Candy Crash, but apparently it's making a tonne of money (approx. $650K US) every DAY. What I don't understand is how is it that they (and a lot of other games before them) were able to basically rip off the game mechanics of Bejewelled and get away with it.
The above conversation speaks about Mario, etc. and how creating a "likeness" is still supposed to be no go - so what's happening here?

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 14:02 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 14:03
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@BatVink yup

Quote: "rip off the game mechanics"

If game mechanics would be protected... what will happen then? No chess? No football? No sports? No simulators? Only from one and only copyright holder? Surely he will be a profiteer by sharing the right to make game.

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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 14:19
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Well, yes, at least until the copyright expires, or the game is put out as open domain in the first place. chess is an ancient game that no-one can be said to have developed individually (and before copyright law existed). if it had been created in modern times, then it probably would have been patented/copyrighted somehow.
I think I can remember that the case that the Rubik's cube was protected and a clone/expansion/derivative was squashed; and we have the above examples mentioned on Mario, etc. I'm sure if someoone release a clone of Mario, but called it Marko or similar that they wouldn't last long. I'm not talking about general mechanics of say platform jumping, but the full mechanics that for all intents and purposes replicated the original such that they "played the same".

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 14:26
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We had match 3 games long before Bejeweled - look up Shariki for example. Heck, most of pop-caps games are derivatives of old ideas but with added shine. Don't get me wrong, I like Pop-cap games, especially Peggle - but success is not the same as invention.

As I said though, it depends on the company - Pop-Cap can't possibly enforce any copyright breaches based on gameplay, nobody really can, because how far back do we go!
The only thing that they could effectively copyright is the name Bejeweled, and they could contest anyone making a similar game with a similar name, but with a straight gameplay clone, using fruit or candy or whatever the heck fits, well Pop-Cap don't have a leg to stand on.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 14:30 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 14:34
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Quote: "the game is put out as open domain in the first place"

And for Mario how long to wait?

Quote: "look up Shariki for example"

This? Looks like a slavic title.


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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 14:45
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hmmm...my memory must be playing tricks on me then as I seem to remember that Popcap did in fact stop a copy cat game that played like Bejewelled when that was at it's peak popularity.
My memory also seems to also remind me that the company behind the (physical) game Connect-4 was able to stop a clone.
Oh well, I suppose it all boils down to how much money and lawyers you are able to afford to protect your product...

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 15:56
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Why does the wiki for Color Lines say it was written by Oleg Demin when Handy's video shows "PROGRAMMING: Olga Demina"? Is this another case of people writing women out of history, or is "Olga Demina" a sort of pseudonym used by this "Oleg Demin"?


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Van B
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 16:01
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Exactly - At that time Bejeweled was making PopCap a lot of money, like easily $100 million dollars, the first indie success story really. But it's clear that they could afford to protect, and it was worth protecting, so they protected.

Mid-week ramble time... sorry!

I've had an idea recently that I'd like to make a retro Atari ST game, like a mini project, so I was thinking Bejeweled or one of it's derivatives. But looking into it, someone is already working on an Atari ST Bejeweled game. Bummer, maybe I shouldn't make my game then...
Ha! - screw that - I'll make my game even if it gets released the day after this other bejeweled game. Why should my idea be any less valid just because someone else had it first - it's an idea and a quite silly project to make a game for a system that hasn't really had a commercial game made in about 15 years. I've looked at this other game and it's Bejeweled pretty much, a fairly exacting clone and a little hum-drum if I'm being honest, as exact as you can be in 16 colours but I don't detect a lot of love. I want to take what I've learned and what skills I've improved in the last 25 years, and go and make a full, proper ST game because it died too quickly for me to do that first time around. I'm even considering making a short print run for it - like a full old school boxed disk copy, sold through eBay or something. Heck, they still make games for the C64, Super Crate Box in fact just got ported! - I wanna play retro bedroom coders as well!

It's par the course with hobbyist and indie developers, we tread on each others toes and steal each others thunder all the time, but we know better than to get too butt-hurt about it. Sometimes a nemesis is a good thing, a bit of rivalry, we don't have that very much on this forum these days - they kinda diluted into friendly debates and learning experiences and positive things because of the attitudes here - there's no bitter, late night coding just to proove a point sessions anymore... I miss the old days

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 19:44
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Quote: "Ha! - screw that - I'll make my game even if it gets released the day after this other bejeweled game."

That's right! Now you have a personal rival C'mon, beat him!

Quote: "Why does the wiki for Color Lines say it was written by Oleg Demin when Handy's video shows "PROGRAMMING: Olga Demina"? Is this another case of people writing women out of history, or is "Olga Demina" a sort of pseudonym used by this "Oleg Demin"?"

A sort of pseudonym. Oleg (male) on the condition of some contract could not work elsewhere, so he created the game under the name Olga Demina (female).

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 19:53 Edited at: 6th Nov 2013 19:54
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Ramble II...

There is a lot to be said for retro gaming. The main allure to it for me is the dedication to squeezing out as much character and detail within limited resources; that takes a lot of skill and passion. Today's games really get under my skin for being so damn sloppy; I heard the new CoD: Ghosts is a 60GB download on Steam! And it looks exactly the same as the older versions! What the hell are they doing with all that memory??
It makes me wonder what the working environment on these so-called AAA is like, it must be a chaotic mess beyond all proportion to produce the crap they shovel out every year. I suppose it is inevitable when you have hundreds of people working on a game with a tight deadline. It's still kind of shameful though, I don't think I would want my name in the credits of one of those games.

Not that I think the programmers in big companies are untalented, on the contrary, I am angry because it's obvious 90% of them are capable of making great games, I just wish we didn't have this monolithic gaming culture where we need hundreds of people and hundreds of millions of dollars to make one game. So much talent is being wasted in these developer-factories, how could it possibly surface when everyone is told to toe the line or get out (because there's a dozens guys waiting to take your place)? In any industry those environments only produce formulaic garbage.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 19:59
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Quote: "What the hell are they doing with all that memory??"

Ummm... HQ motion capture, HQ speech, lots of speech. Full HD FMV. lots of it.

I'd play Zelda on NES in 2014 than COD.

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Posted: 6th Nov 2013 20:11
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Battlefield 4 takes half as much (30GB) and looks the far better and higher-fidelity game. Perhaps they have a much shorter pointless single-player campaign that no one will play?


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BMacZero
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Posted: 7th Nov 2013 09:53
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Quote: "What I don't understand is how is it that they (and a lot of other games before them) were able to basically rip off the game mechanics of Bejewelled and get away with it."

Reading I Googled up: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

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mr_d
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Posted: 7th Nov 2013 10:12
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clear as mud

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BatVink
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Posted: 7th Nov 2013 10:52
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I have been to a patent lawyer in the past (UK law). The important bit is this...

Quote: ""Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.""


The reason why characters like Mario are so vehemently protected is because this is the part that can be protected. Anybody can build a platformer where a character does exactly what Mario does. But you can't use Mario (or any of the protected assets of the game).

Back with the original question, the fact that methods cannot be protected, it is likely that the things you are talking about generating will be more aggressively protected.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 7th Nov 2013 16:50
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Quote: " which means technically no redistribution of original media, which would at least get around copyright issues"


It doesn't have to be the original media, it's about the original design. How it's created/generated is irrelevant. That's why people can sue simply for something having a likeness of their design.

Quote: "How would you recreate a soundtrack? I bet you will get same sound wave."

Ask Vanilla Ice. He barely used a measure or two from Under Pressure but Bowie won in court.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Nov 2013 18:26 Edited at: 7th Nov 2013 18:26
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Quote: "What the hell are they doing with all that memory??"


Good question - and it isn't just the gaming industry that wastes memory. There was a time when a simple text message such as an agenda for a meeting would be just that, i.e. nothing more than a few hundred bytes. Now it would be circulated as some sort of grossly inflated file with graphics, logos, etc. And the actual useful information content? Just the same - or less as you probably get distracted by the pretty pictures, fonts, etc. Worse still, you probably have to buy a new printer just to get a hard copy of the damn thing.

Well, that's my grumble of the day over and done with.



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mr Handy
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Posted: 8th Nov 2013 07:03 Edited at: 8th Nov 2013 07:07
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Quote: "I heard the new CoD: Ghosts is a 60GB download on Steam!"

I checked - 50GB. But some people say that 30GB.

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Phaelax
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I got a free game with my new graphics card. I was quite upset when I found out I had to download 20GB on Uplay. Why oh why do people insist on running an additional 3rd party software to download and play another game? Just stamp out the 10 cent dvd and send it to me!

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Quik
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Posted: 12th Nov 2013 13:02
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Quote: " Just stamp out the 10 cent dvd and send it to me!"


Explain to me how many DVDs can take 20-30GB?



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Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Nov 2013 19:37
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Quote: "Explain to me how many DVDs can take 20-30GB?"

Ok, so I didn't think of that. But how are these compressed installs still so large? I mean, Diablo 3 is a newer game and has a ton of graphics, but it's only 12GB installed (came on a single dvd).

The game I had to download was Splinter Cell Blacklist, and I can download Assassin's Creed once it's released.

USB sticks are fairly cheap these days. You can get a 32GB for like $15. Maybe they can start shipping games on those?

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Indicium
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Posted: 12th Nov 2013 19:43
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No fibre optic where you live yet? I upgraded a couple of months ago and now the prospect of downloading 20GBs of data is laughable. Probably done inside of 45 minutes.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Quik
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Posted: 12th Nov 2013 19:51
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Quote: "USB sticks are fairly cheap these days. You can get a 32GB for like $15. Maybe they can start shipping games on those?"


problem is that, once agian - that costs a fair bit of money. Compare that to a 1$CD (if not less)
Now I wouldnt know what crazy deals they'd get on USBs but, I still think it's a bit of a pricing issue



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The Zoq2
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Posted: 12th Nov 2013 19:52
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Quote: "You can get a 32GB for like $15"


Still, that would add 15$ to the price for either you or the developer. Just leave your computer on while downloading one night or while at school/work and you can play when you get home.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
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bitJericho
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Posted: 13th Nov 2013 01:32
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I imagine game developers would like to distribute on bluray but it's probably the same issue (most people don't have bluray drives). I bet way more people have always on internet connections and can download a 40gig file within a few hours. Looks like about 12 hours for a 1mbps connection.

The alternative is to distribute multiple DVDs which is actually fairly reasonable.

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Airslide
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Posted: 13th Nov 2013 18:06
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Quote: "The alternative is to distribute multiple DVDs which is actually fairly reasonable."


I remember picking up a boxed copy of Half Life 2 when it first came out and swapping out something like five CDs to install the thing.
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Phaelax
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I have a copy of Unreal Tournament that came on like 4 CDs, so why not multiple DVDs?

Yes fiber is in the city (not sure about my specific area), but I'm not paying $80/mo for internet. Plus, think about all the other countries that have download limits.

Personally, games should just go back to fitting on a floppy!

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Libervurto
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Quote: "Personally, games should just go back to fitting on a floppy!"

Now there's a challenge for some ProcGen nerds: make a clone of a game that takes up at least 20GB and squeeze it down to 1.4MB!

This was made with 98KB, yes that's right 98-kilo-bytes!



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