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Geek Culture / Foreign Languages

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 01:10 Edited at: 6th Jan 2014 01:13
Who here speaks multiple languages? I feel ashamed that I can only speak English. I really dislike the attitude of British people towards other languages, they are so ignorant and arrogant. I used to work at Blockbuster and I lost track of the number of times someone would choose a film and then, when I told them it was foreign, be disappointed and put it back on the shelf. I remember one time in particular that I'd seen the film and we were chatting about it and I said how great it was but he still didn\'t want to even try it. Not everyone is like that of course, some people came almost exclusively for foreign films but they were a small minority.

I feel excluded from so much that is going on in the world and when I do meet a foreigner and they slip effortlessly between English and their native tongue I feel like a small infant or a chimp that has learned to use sign language but is totally lost when the researchers talk amongst themselves.
This is a very easy ignorance for an English-speaker to fall into. I have never "needed" to speak another language. I don't get to travel that much and when I have it has primarily been to English-speaking countries or countries where everyone speaks English (if you want to observe that subtle difference), although this was not a reason for choosing those destinations. Even on the internet it's rare that I find myself wandering into the outskirts of foreign cyberspace -- the internet is far more segregated than I had expected, especially between languages. It would be very interesting to see a map of cyberspace where sites visited by the same person are linked together, and where many people visit the same sites and create the same links these links become highways, and sites that share no links are isolated islands.

Anyway, back to languages. I would like to learn a language, possibly French or Spanish. Does anyone have any advice for doing this? Does anyone speak these languages here and know of any good websites/books/etc in those languages (or whatever language you speak) that would give me an incentive to learn them? I have looked at videos and websites for learning languages and they are all crap IMO, they all focus parrot learning and reciting words and stock phrases rather than actually providing any understanding of the language. I use far more English than I "know", I know the skeletal structure of words, so I can figuratively reverse-engineer words and make assumptions that are usually correct.


Formerly OBese87.
Quik
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 01:25 Edited at: 6th Jan 2014 01:27
It's very hard to get by in the world today, and not know English.

"Read this manual" - it's in English, of course - cuz.. why'd you need Swedish when we learn English from the moment we learn to read?
I can speak English, and I understand basic German - sadly, that's about it. Would love to learn Russian - as I do find that language to be just amazing. German is beautiful as well.
I do regret not paying more attention to German class back in 6th-9th grade.. ahh >:

edit: And obviously I speak Swedish xD
(and understand Norwegian and Danish, since they're so similar)



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 02:10
If it helps with restoring some faith in humanity, I like to try and speak in people's native tongue, I have best tried to keep my German from what I learned at school, given I go to a German music festival each year I do my best to speak German as I am in their country, my German sucks but my aim this year is to improve it.

With regards to learning, there's a lot out there, like Rosetta Stone, which is expensive, alternatively there's Tranparent Languages.

Personally I love language, at one point I was learning Japanese, I would love to finish, likewise, Swedish, Icelandic, Norwegian and Finnish all interest me. Hyvva Paiva! Hvardan gar det! God kvel! Okay that was a mix and without the accents, but I do greetings at best lol.

Kezzla
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 06:47
I can speak Australian.

I am trying to learn Chinese at the moment as I will be going there in april.

very basic Italian and Japanese -eg Hello, goodbye, how are you, what is your name etc.


I remember one funny day when I used to work in hotels. I walked up to the elevator and pressed the button. There was a Japanese man standing there, he feebly uttered "hello" then held out a piece of paper and pointed at it. I looked at the English room number written on it. Being four digits long, sign language became a little messy. I thought back to my primary school days and said each of the numbers in Japanese. we both lit up with glee at my achievement. He said something in Japanese I didn't understand, I looked at him blankly and counted to ten in Japanese. He laughed and said "hello, how are you" then laughed hysterically. I replied that I was well, I could remember half of how to ask your name but couldn't get it, I started playing with the bits i could remember, he cottoned on and said the phrase, I told him my name, but the girls way. laughing he yelled at me "no no no san! san!" we both proceeded to use up every bit of the others language that we could remember. we both then said thank-you in each others language and then good bye, and went our merry ways.

Ok, Jokes over, No more eye burn.
Quik
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 09:31 Edited at: 6th Jan 2014 09:32
Kezzla, that sounds like a really fun encounter! ^^
Something to remember :3



Whose eyes are those eyes?
The Zoq2
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 10:52
Like quick said, getting by without englis is pretty hard atleast in sweden and I think I use englis about as much as I use swedish even though I use them in diffirent situations of course. The only thing I feel I cant do that well in english is pronounciation (and spelling some words like that one ).

I also learned some German in school but I barley remember anything from that even though it was less than 3 years ago. I feel like in most cases I would be able to just talk english instead of german. Plus I never got to actually use the language so the knowledge went away pretty quickly.

Since we are sharing stories about languages, we went to ukraine in school as a sort of exchange student program where we spent one week living with students in ukraine and the spent one living with us in Sweden. The weird and (sort of) scary part was that the only people speaking english in the country were the students we lived with (it was a school with a focus on english). You couldnt even order MC donalds food because nobody else spoke any English. One day the TV was on when we got home to the house I lived in and there was a movie that looked very much american but was dubbed to ukrainan, aparently there were no english shows on TV what so ever.

Learning english must have been really tough when the only way to hear the lanaguage is from your friends and teacher (who had a pretty bad pronounciation).

Like quick I also understand norwegian and written danish since they are so similar to swedish. Spoken danish is almost impossible for me to understand since they speak really quickly and it sort of sounds like they have a hot potato in there mouth when speaking making it verry unclear what they are actually saying and words sort of flow together to someone that is not used to it.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 18:04
With regards to learning resources, the best stuff I have found is the Teach Yourself series of books. I used them when I tried learning Japanese and they were really good, granted it has been years and I've forgotten a lot of what I've learned, but a refresher would soon fix that.

They were great in that they went into a lot of detail and broke things down and it wasn't too dissimilar to learning languages at school, most language resources tend to be about teaching stock phrases and words, but really don't cover rules or even memory techniques. An example was the Kanji book I used, they had a visual for each character to help you memorise it.

This is the book I started with for Japanese, though I bought the book separately, so it was significantly less than paying for the full pack.

Link

They do it for a lot of other stuff as well. I just liked how comprehensive it was.


However, they've got Spanish and French, dunno what the books are like, but if they're like the Japanese ones, then I would rate them, though the French one seems to only get 3 stars on Amazon.

Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 20:11
Quote: ""Read this manual" - it's in English,"

I can't think of the last manual I saw that didn't come in 12 different languages on the same page.

mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 20:57
Quik says:
Quote: "Would love to learn Russian - as I do find that language to be just amazing."


Tee hee.
"Quik".
Let's add some endearment suffixes:



That's all means the same Quik but with different flavour of endearment
May be added some negative endearment (but I am too lazy to print another list)

bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 21:09 Edited at: 6th Jan 2014 21:10
Quote: "I can't think of the last manual I saw that didn't come in 12 different languages on the same page."


Ya but they always have English don't they

I hate watching foreign films. When they are good, you have to read the whole time, so you have to stay transfixed on the subtitles the whole time, rather than, you know, watch the movie or have it playing in the background.

That said, I have seen a few subbed movies I truly enjoyed.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jan 2014 21:42
Quote: "Ya but they always have English don't they "


Surprisingly not, I've had customers call about products they've bought abroad, thinking it's a smart way to save money to find there's no international warranty and of course, the manual's only in whatever foreign language it's printed on. Sometime's it's a waste of paper.

Of course, manuals can be found for UK equivalent models with some minor variations to foreign models. You just got to know what you're looking for. That said, sometimes you could turn a blank and find that there is no equivalent model and you're doomed to learn another language.

Libervurto
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Posted: 7th Jan 2014 02:55
Learning something as alien as Japanese is pretty cool but a bit daunting for me.

I was going through some old books and found a short French book called "La pipe de Maigret", it even has an old Métro ticket in it.

I imagine some time in the future everyone will speak some mongrel form of English and all these languages will just be for nostalgia. Like in Wales where they still put Welsh on all the signs but less than half a million people actually speak Welsh (around 15% of the population).


Formerly OBese87.
Van B
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Posted: 9th Jan 2014 23:03
Maybe the attitude is kinda old now though - I mean they tech kids languages in primary school now, it's a block of society that had to endure German and French classes, which in the 90's were absolutely terrible. Nowadays learning a language is more accesible and easier, the attitude won't last long.

I am the one who knocks...
PixelF
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Posted: 10th Jan 2014 05:45 Edited at: 10th Jan 2014 05:45
I speak French.

I also used to speak a fairly good amount of Spanish and German but forgot most of it years ago. Where I grew up, there were a lot of Spanish and German speakers, but when I moved to a different city, the amount of German and Spanish diminished. Which is why I lost those languages.

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nonZero
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Posted: 12th Jan 2014 17:15
I speak English (American, British and South African) with decent proficiency.

Ek praat Afrikaans, maar my Afrikaans is rerig kak en ek kan nie good spel nie.

I picked up a little Japanese because I watch lots of anime and can string a few barely-intelligible sentences together verbally. Could prolly get by if I went on holiday to Japan as I know a little J-Culture, too. Would love to learn the language properly some day. Resources and time are my biggest set-back atm.

Oh, I also speak a little Fox so I could prolly tell you 'what the fox says'.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Jan 2014 23:43
I am going to make it my mission to improve my German this year, I would like to be able to speak more fluently when I visit again this year so I sound less like a blithering idiot. I always view myself as that English policeman on Allo Allo, only worse.

That said, I know NOT to say "Ich bin heiss" on a hot day, apparently it means I'm horny.

Quote: "Oh, I also speak a little Fox so I could prolly tell you 'what the fox says'."





nonZero
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Posted: 13th Jan 2014 09:47
Good point!

RedFlames
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Posted: 13th Jan 2014 14:41 Edited at: 13th Jan 2014 14:46
Hm, I've been meaning to reply here for a while now (basically since the thread was started ) so I might as well do that now.

First off, to the OP:
@Libervurto:
Quote: "Who here speaks multiple languages?"

I speak german (which is my mother tongue) and english.
I've been learning russian for a few weeks/month now so I got the very basics of that down... wouldn't say I "speak" russian though.

Quote: "I feel ashamed that I can only speak English. "

Even though I do speak more than one language I still feel kinda the same. After all I grew up here in Germany so I sort of speak german "by default"... and english - well a lot of people all over the world speak english and the internet would be pretty boring if I only knew german, same goes for other media like books / movies / TV series (I'm not a fan of translations; I try to avoid them unless necessary) - sooo I don't feel like speaking english is special in any way either.

Quote: "[...]
I feel excluded from so much that is going on in the world and when I do meet a foreigner and they slip effortlessly between English and their native tongue I feel like a small infant or a chimp that has learned to use sign language but is totally lost when the researchers talk amongst themselves."

Well, I'll admit it's pretty neat to know more than one language now that I think about it... even if it's just to confuse non-germans dadurch, dass ich einen Satz auf deutsch beende.
Just kidding.
(translation of the above, just to negate the intended confusion: "...by ending a sentence in german.")

Quote: "This is a very easy ignorance for an English-speaker to fall into. I have never "needed" to speak another language. I don't get to travel that much and when I have it has primarily been to English-speaking countries or countries where everyone speaks English (if you want to observe that subtle difference), although this was not a reason for choosing those destinations.
[...]"

I guess that exactly is the difference here - I am german but use english on the internet because it became such a universal language, but native english speakers don't even have to choose. They already speak the lingua franca of the internet (or the world for that matter) and have no need for another language...

@Quik:
Quote: "I can speak English, and I understand basic German - sadly, that's about it. Would love to learn Russian - as I do find that language to be just amazing. German is beautiful as well.
I do regret not paying more attention to German class back in 6th-9th grade.. ahh >:
"

It's strange how some people say German is beautiful, while otherwise the consensus seems to be that germans always sound angry.
Nah, I know that the latter is just a stereotype but everytime I come across one of those memes (you know, the one with words in other languages compared to long german words like "Schmetterling" or "Krankenwagen" or "Kugelschreiber"... ^^) I think to myself: Surely german isn't the only language the sounds angry if you pronounce everything like Hitler?
Anways, the point was, yeah german isn't all that bad. Sentences might be longer than their equivalent in english and we have stuff like "der/die/das" instead of just "the" for all 3 grammatical genders. Also the endings of words often change depending on the cases etc. so while that's a no-brainer to native speakers foreigners often have a hard time getting that stuff right for example... buuut german can be quite beautiful nontheless in my opinion.

Quote: "edit: And obviously I speak Swedish xD
(and understand Norwegian and Danish, since they're so similar)"

Now that's just cheating. Atleast ou don't understand Finnish and Islandic, now that'd just be unfair.


@The Zoq2:
Quote: "I also learned some German in school but I barley remember anything from that even though it was less than 3 years ago. I feel like in most cases I would be able to just talk english instead of german. Plus I never got to actually use the language so the knowledge went away pretty quickly."

I'm afraid the same might happen to my patchy russian skills... I just don't have any use for them as of yet. Oh well.

Quote: "Since we are sharing stories about languages, we went to ukraine in school [...] One day the TV was on when we got home to the house I lived in and there was a movie that looked very much american but was dubbed to ukrainan, aparently there were no english shows on TV what so ever."

Well, how is that handled in Sweden? Germany has a strong history of dubbing movies and series so most of the time it's actually pretty good, especially for people who can't understand english very well (for example kids).
The downside is that it's not that easy to get the original (english) audio versions. I mostly rent DVDs for that reason and recently also started going to the netherlands to the cinema as that's right across the border from here, so it's not too far, and they often show movies in english (although with dutch subtitles at times).

Quote: "Learning english must have been really tough when the only way to hear the lanaguage is from your friends and teacher (who had a pretty bad pronounciation)."

TV and Internet taught me way more about proper pronounciation than teachers back in school. German teachers tend to suck at actually speaking without an accent for some reason.

Quote: "I hate watching foreign films. When they are good, you have to read the whole time, so you have to stay transfixed on the subtitles the whole time, rather than, you know, watch the movie or have it playing in the background.

That said, I have seen a few subbed movies I truly enjoyed."

I can fully understand that... listen to gibberish and reading all the time while you want to enjoy a purely visual piece of media (medium? Would the singular make sense in this context?) pretty much sucks. Hence the dubbing quality here in Germany is pretty cool, even if it has the aforementioned downside.

@Seppuku Arts: (I swear this is the last person I reply to! This post shall end somewhat soon-ish, I promise D: )
Quote: "I am going to make it my mission to improve my German this year, I would like to be able to speak more fluently when I visit again this year so I sound less like a blithering idiot. I always view myself as that English policeman on Allo Allo, only worse."

Good luck with that! I've read this somewhere before (wasn't that even in the old MLP thread? ) that you attended Wacken festival and I assume you'll be heading there again. That's pretty cool.

Quote: "That said, I know NOT to say "Ich bin heiss" on a hot day, apparently it means I'm horny."

That's true. I assume "I am hot" is just a statement about body temperature in this context? That would indeed translate to "Mir ist heiß". If it means "I am buff/sexy/etc." it could very well translate to "Ich bin heiß" and yes that can also be interpreted as "I'm horny". xD

This reminds me, back in primary school we had a classmate with the surname Horn and his nickname was "horny"... until we started to learn english and became aware of the translation of that. Turned out to be a rather unfortunate choice in hindsight.


....I don't even wanna know how long this post 'll be with all the quotes and stuff! If you read this all up to here: Kudos and sorry and thanks for reading I guess?

~RedFlames

Edit: hightlighted the "@username" parts to delimit the sections better... this post looks so spaghetti. :I
The Zoq2
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Posted: 13th Jan 2014 17:56
Quote: "Well, how is that handled in Sweden? Germany has a strong history of dubbing movies"


Almost nothing is dubbed and presented in the original language , there are subtitles of course. I guess it does make it harder for kids to understand, but since we start learning english so early I never found that to be a problem, and usning the original language was a pretty good "motivator" to learn english.

The only things that are dubbed is TV shows for kids and for some reason, documentaries on the government owned TV channels, which gets really annoying because they only use the same two "voice actors" that get really repedative after a while

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Jan 2014 20:14
Quote: " I've read this somewhere before (wasn't that even in the old MLP thread? ) that you attended Wacken festival and I assume you'll be heading there again. That's pretty cool."


Yep! It was a lot of fun, this will be my 5th time going I think. Line up this year is looking damn good. I find versus UK festivals people are a lot more relaxed at the same time, crazy. The thing I love is that it feels like you're in a community, possibly helped by the fact the entire village is involved with the festival and it literally does merge with it.

In the UK, people would just moan about it, we've got a hippy festival right next to where I live and people constantly moan about it and it's not like it's stupidly close, nor as if there's any trouble and it's only 1 weekend a year.

Quote: "That's true. I assume "I am hot" is just a statement about body temperature in this context? That would indeed translate to "Mir ist heiß". If it means "I am buff/sexy/etc." it could very well translate to "Ich bin heiß" and yes that can also be interpreted as "I'm horny". xD"


Hot as in temperature. Double meanings are fun, but it makes me curious about how as a foreigner with poor German skills how many double meanings are lost on me.

Quote: "This reminds me, back in primary school we had a classmate with the surname Horn and his nickname was "horny"... until we started to learn english and became aware of the translation of that. Turned out to be a rather unfortunate choice in hindsight."


Of course, like true friends I'm sure you still called him Horny. Like somebody I went to school with, his surname was 'Hiscock', naturally there was an immature nickname.


Quote: "Now that's just cheating. Atleast ou don't understand Finnish and Islandic, now that'd just be unfair."


Finnish will be the challenge, it's actually a lot closer to Hungarian than it is Swedish. Still, out of curiosity I did start trying to learn Finnish. Hyvaa Paiva!

However, I maintain the argument that Norwegian is just Swedish with an accent.

skinner
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Posted: 13th Jan 2014 20:59
Knowing English is enough, at least when we have the possibility to find the necessary subtitling. Besides English i know French and Russian, however it is easier to understand movies, games and cartoons in English, which should be universal for everyone.

Hello!
nonZero
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Posted: 14th Jan 2014 20:09
iirc, some lot invented a language that was to be universal but it never took off coz English pretty much already was, lol.

As far as subtitles go, I'm in a tiny minority who selects the original language and subs when I pop in a foreign DVD? Seriously, I must be a freak then coz subs never bother me. In fact I use subs on English stuff too sometimes coz stereo sound makes voices tough to hear. I guess being an avid anime otaku for over a decade has gotten me pretty used to subs. I have no problems watching and reading.

Seditious
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Posted: 14th Jan 2014 20:20
Quote: "I'm in a tiny minority who selects the original language and subs when I pop in a foreign DVD? Seriously, I must be a freak then coz subs never bother me."


Subs are always better than dubs, for me at least. It keeps that feel of authenticity.
RedFlames
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Posted: 14th Jan 2014 20:27
Quote: "iirc, some lot invented a language that was to be universal but it never took off coz English pretty much already was, lol."


Do you perhaps mean Esperanto? There's a few of those constructed languages, but yeah they are not very well known and thus definitely not quite universal at all. ^^
Van B
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Posted: 15th Jan 2014 12:46
The argument for a new universal language has always been that English is so difficult to learn. I never saw the point myself, English is the international standard, and it's not like the requirements are even the same... really people want to communicate with everyone - not just people from Europe, the internet has changed things a lot. What I didn't like was the attitude back then, that people who questioned why not just stick with English were just arrogant, as if it isn't the obvious choice.

If anything, a simplified English standard would be better, something easier to learn that bypasses the inconsistencies and meticulous grammar. I don't think a new language would ever work, but a simplified and optimized version of English might.

I am the one who knocks...
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jan 2014 18:37
I remember listening to a talk in Cambridge about Global Language, there is a coin termed 'Globish', which is essentially International English. In fact, it was led by the author of Globish: How the English Language Became the World's Language.

From what I understood, it's English, but how it is spoken by foreigners, so may not necessarily have all of the complexity native speakers such as ourselves offer.

More info

Also, if you were to follow the source of our indo-European languages back in time you will find that there is a close linguistic link. There is a hypothetical language (hypothetical, because there's no known records to give us an idea of how the language was constructed) we call 'Proto-Indo European' or 'PIE' for short, we can see how it has branched out and it can be interesting to see where linguistic links lie, even between words in English and words in Sanskrit. However, here's a nice tree of Indo-European languages and how they've evolving.

wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2014 05:30
Quote: "Ek praat Afrikaans, maar my Afrikaans is rerig kak en ek kan nie good spel nie."
onse moeder taal :p But thanks to afrikaans, you can understand a fair bit of Hollands , a little German wouldn't be too odd might pick up a few words here and there.

Don't know if I should say Hollands or Netherlands, because often the people that live there don't know the difference :p Oddly enough in afrikaans we refer to the country as the Netherlands and the language as hollands and vice versa.
easter bunny
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2014 05:47
Quote: "If anything, a simplified English standard would be better, something easier to learn that bypasses the inconsistencies and meticulous grammar. I don't think a new language would ever work, but a simplified and optimized version of English might."


Somebody already made one, Ogdens Basic English
http://ogden.basic-english.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English

But it didn't really hit off very well

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