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Geek Culture / Good or bad?

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NIlooc223
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 05:56 Edited at: 5th Feb 2014 05:57
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What defines good exactly? Good and bad... Is good and bad only defined by society? Or are we born with a natural idea of good and bad? For example... In say America we teach that killing is bad... But you go to some random tribe and they teach killing is good and shows power and strength and makes you a \"man\" so is good and bad only a concept of what people deem to be good or bad? Basically.. Are we born with a natural idea of what is good or bad? Opinions? Sorry if this is confusing. I am not the best at explaining what I am trying to get across.

Edit: Can a mod fix the title? It is supposed to say "good". Sorry for the mistake!
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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 07:30 Edited at: 5th Feb 2014 07:39
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There is no absolute good and evil. It is a relative therm. Good is what other people wants you to behave, evil - what they don't want you to behave. What is good for you - that don't make you feel bad/hurt. Everything else is a demagogy.

What people usually do in games? Killing, stealing, there is even a japanese popular rapist "simulator". Why? Because you are allowed to do anything you want in game.

P.S. If you feel good when killing, then it is good for you. But it is bad for whom you kill, so that's why society builds borders to restrict everyone in their wills to make them possible live together. In africa tribes are too small so they build other borders, therefore tribes attacks each other.
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Quik
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 07:35
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Ahh now this is fun - Good is indeed a relative term, what I believe is good might be something completely else in another persons mind. and we're absolutely not born with a "Natural idea" of what is good or bad - it very much depends on how we are raised, and later on on what we are affected by: Media, friends, family all comes into play to shape you as a person.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 07:42
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Quote: "we're absolutely not born with a "Natural idea" of what is good or bad"

No. Food is good, pain is bad. Don't shrink that terms only to [behaviour in front of others].
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Quik
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 07:51
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Can't say I agree that that's a definition of morals but okay. Sure - we do have instincts that tell us: Don't hurt yourself, and food is nice to have
but nothing that tells us: Other feels pain, and that sucks
or: Other people needs food



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 08:05 Edited at: 5th Feb 2014 08:08
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Quote: "but nothing that tells us: Other feels pain, and that sucks"

The society tells you the rules you need to follow to live inside it. Or go to jail, pay fine, whatever.

In the family you are decide what to do. For example, some parents decide to abandon the child and he is moving to orphanage.

Also I want to warn that this thread could be easily derailed to government/religion discussion!
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mr_d
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 09:56
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My personal belief is that there is a universal or inherent knowledg or state of good or bad/evil, and anyone that argues against this is just making excuses in order for them to do evil acts.

Taking the example of this kill-good-tribe, I belive it would be a matter of need and the lesser evil; i.e. the need for limited resources for your own tribe to succeed as opposed to some neighbouring/enemy tribe. If the notion of killing was not bad, then why doesn't each and every member of such a tribe just willy nilly kill off everyone else? This brings us back to society.

Society is just a semi-formalised agreement between individuals not to go around killing each other any time the felt like it. Why - simple, because it's agreed to be a known fact that killing = bad.

All normal humans, no matter where they have been brought up in whatever environment, have human emotions, and one of these emotional by-products is empathy. i.e. the ability to put ourselves in the shoes of the other party to understand what they are going through and experiencing. So, even though in that kill-good-tribe, the tribe may say it's good to kill, the individual will always experience empathy to the victim and hence know that it is an evil act to take that other persons life.

I conjecture that parents who abandon their children also know in their hearts, if they're truthful to themselves, that they are performing a bad act.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 12:38
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Quote: "My personal belief is that there is a universal or inherent knowledg or state of good or bad/evil, and anyone that argues against this is just making excuses in order for them to do evil acts."

No way, mr_d is the Captain Good!!!
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mr_d
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:00
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does that make you ?

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Quik
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:02
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Quote: "My personal belief is that there is a universal or inherent knowledg or state of good or bad/evil, and anyone that argues against this is just making excuses in order for them to do evil acts."


Great that you atleast realize it's your personal belief - because I don't agree ; )
Every society is different, and part of our culture is this "common morale ground" - a very obvious difference is views on women.
Heck, me myself believe that there's good and "less good" acts, but I have no evil in my good/evil slider. I view things as less good - but nothing is EVIL.
I wouldn't condemn anyone for doing anything bad - because I know that bad, in their eyes are good.
quite.. fizzly trying to talk about something this abstract but.
I absolutly think that we all have "some sort of common ground" - like you shouldnt kill.
But then, that doesnt apply to ALL humans - and it absolutly doesn't apply to all cultures - it varies. Everyone is molded differently depending on experiences, what your closest people think and feel and such.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:08
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Honestly I respect his point, it is a point of view of a healthy society member. But, alas, such society does not exist. People are not perfect.
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Seditious
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:11 Edited at: 5th Feb 2014 14:12
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I believe to some extent there is objective good - for example, that people shouldn't be kept as slaves, that women (and coloured people) should have equal rights as men, etc. It's just that we've only recently become civilized enough to realise this.

It's not all clear-cut though. For example stealing is wrong, but what if you're stealing food to feed your starving family? It's stuff like that that's fuzzy.
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mr_d
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:19 Edited at: 5th Feb 2014 14:24
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but the point is that the party stealing knows it's wrong, but chooses to go with the lesser of the wrongs (i.e. stealing) over the larger wrong (i.e. of letting their family die from starvation).

and the other comment about society doesn't exist is obviously untrue, as the fact that the majority is not out there killing everyone else proves. people are not perfect - but I believe that they know that already, and know when they have crossed the line (or at least know that there is a line to crossed).

the argument isn't whether people do good or evil; it's about whether they know that what they do is good or evil (and possibly choose to do evil anyway).

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Quik
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:45
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Quote: "People are not perfect."


Matter of opinion, again. What is a perfect person to you? One that is "flawless" in your own values? Or perhaps someone who follows whatever rules society puts up?

To me, a perfect individual is.. well everyone. Because there's no such thing as perfect - if anyone is to be perfect it's me. Because I do follow my own ideas and values - nobody else can replicate that.
Quote: "the argument isn't whether people do good or evil; it's about whether they know that what they do is good or evil (and possibly choose to do evil anyway)."


But what is good, or evil is simply what society (or the majority of people) says it is. Doesn't make it a fact, it just makes it a overwhelming opinion. I can steal, knowing full well that others WONT LIKE IT. But i won't view it as "evil" or in the right circumstance even Wrong. I'd say OTHERS are wrong.



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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 14:55
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For instance, a perfect society don't need weapons and jails.
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mr_d
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 15:15
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people not perfect => society is not perfect

never said that (our) society is perfect, only that we have one and that everyone has to live in one, no matter if it's large or small, the western world, the eastern, or 1st world or 3rd world, etc.

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 16:07
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There is no right or wrong, good or bad...

The only factors are where things sit with your moral compass, and whether or not you got caught

I am the one who knocks...
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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 16:48
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Quote: "or 1st world or 3rd world"

A bit insulting, you know.

Quote: "There is no right or wrong, good or bad..."

It's just about who's got the biggest gun
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KeithC
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 18:03
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Quote: "My personal belief is that there is a universal or inherent knowledge or state of good or bad/evil, and anyone that argues against this is just making excuses in order for them to do evil acts."


I can agree with this statement. How many people here have been to different areas (continents/countries) of the World for a significant amount of time (not just a week or two)? How many people here have had their life directly threatened? How many people here have experienced actual War? How many people here have directly witnessed abject poverty (as in see and smell)?

You cannot have a good sense of what is right and wrong in this World, until you've experienced the extremes; both in societal standing, and in witnessing absolute despair...up close and personal.

Watching YouTube videos and documentaries on the above doesn't cut it...not even close. I can sufficiently say that I have been around and experienced all of the above in my lifetime. In doing so, I can conclude that my Country (great as it is) is not the center of the World as some of my compatriots will suggest. I can also suggest that many views I see around here are those of either young minds, or un-traveled ones....or both.

There are absolutely gray areas of both good and bad, such as the one eluded to above concerning stealing to feed your family. Stealing/pirating a game you "want", is not the same thing (for example). You don't need a game to survive. Disbelief in the principles of "good" and "bad", does not negate their existence in societal and personal accountability.

At the end of it all, you have to deal with your own conscience. Some people cannot, and choose to take their own life; that is on them.

-Keith

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nonZero
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 18:26
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Deep down, we all know right from wrong, for we have all read the Giant Pickle's teachings; "Thou shalt not stand upon a lily, nor shalt thou pour milk upon a sleeping man's face..."

"have to write here. As, we may not throw the fan. He's sure to blow your way. You can say to another. do not spit into the well from which you drink. do not spit into the wind." ~ greenpavel
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Van B
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 18:29
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There's always karma, which IMO boils down all belief structures into a universal rulebook. People can't really hide what they do these days, countries and governments are held accountable globally. When the economy is as bad as it is, it doesn't take much to cause a negative effect, whether that's reluctance to trade with countries who violate human rights, or squander aid money... whatever - it's not a good time to be an anti-social neighbor.

I am the one who knocks...
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Quik
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 19:20
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Quote: "You cannot have a good sense of what is right and wrong in this World, until you've experienced the extremes; both in societal standing, and in witnessing absolute despair...up close and personal."


Quite true, and it's important to have this in the back of your head - I have my beliefs and values but I KNOW that they may, at any time alter - if I do experience a circumstance in which any of those values are affected. Doesn't currently change how I feel about them, but I know it MIGHT happen once such a extreme circumstance would happen.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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Mobiius
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Posted: 5th Feb 2014 23:37
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There is no right or wrong, there is only fun, and boring.

\r\nNow Visit My Website
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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Feb 2014 18:12
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You would not stick a needle into someone's eye not because it is not fun or bad, but becasue it is boring, right? I like that concept, close to reality in some cases.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Feb 2014 19:28 Edited at: 6th Feb 2014 19:30
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Quote: "Society is just a semi-formalised agreement between individuals not to go around killing each other any time the felt like it. Why - simple, because it's agreed to be a known fact that killing = bad."

Close, but you draw the wrong conclusion. Killing is outlawed in all societies around the world for the simple reason that societies with less killing are more successful. There have been countless instances where high rates of killing resulted in the ultimate demise of entire civilisations, we call it war.

Formerly OBese87.
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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Feb 2014 22:43
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Quote: "Close, but you draw the wrong conclusion."

I don't think so...

Quote: "Killing is outlawed in all societies around the world for the simple reason that societies with less killing are more successful. There have been countless instances where high rates of killing resulted in the ultimate demise of entire civilizations, we call it war."

That may all be true, however, you are just pushing the argument 1 step back; we are talking about good and bad (evil), not just killing (that's only one manifestation of bad).
So you have to ask yourself why society (and practically all life) values life over death (obviously), but why is that so? Why is living better (or good) than being dead (bad)? If there were truly no good or bad, then being in either state would be just as good and we'd all be ambivalent on what we'd like to be.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Feb 2014 23:07
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Quote: "values life over death"

and money over life. (A money crime is very likely to have a heavier punishment than a crime involving another persons life. (IE Murder)



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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 00:21
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Killing-shmilling. This thread becames boring. Even OP has logic flaws - why "good vs bad" and not "good vs evil"? Why not "right vs wrong?" Why so serious?
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Libervurto
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 01:47 Edited at: 7th Feb 2014 01:50
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Mobius 22:37 - There is no right or wrong, there is only fun, and boring.

mr_d wrote: "So you have to ask yourself why society (and practically all life) values life over death (obviously), but why is that so?"

It doesn't. All living things value reproduction over death. In certain species of insect the adults only live barely long enough to mate and lay eggs before dying, and often do not even eat a single meal as adults. Their goal is reproduction, not survival.

We seem to be the first species capable of valuing life over reproduction.

Formerly OBese87.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 06:39
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Quote: "We seem to be the first species capable of valuing life over reproduction."

And the terrorists are...?
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NIlooc223
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 06:45
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I believe everyone is born with a simple sense of good and bad. Humans are born with empathy. We are born knowing that we would not want our lives taken. Therefore are we would feel a since of empathy for someone else losing there life.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 06:52
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You should add: empathy for creatures bigger that insect and better be fluffy. Would you feel anything about dead fish or chicken? Vegans "feel", that's why they don't eat meat.
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Quik
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 07:51 Edited at: 7th Feb 2014 07:53
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Quote: "Humans are born with empathy."


This is very much a lie - as a father for 4 years now, I do now that empathy is something that has to be LEARNED. I know that both from my own daughter, and other children. You're not born with empathy (hence why children are VERY happy to drag your beard - even though you continue screaming - or why hitting dogs are completely fine - after they've learned that hitting humans aren't - you have to TEACH them that it's wrong.)
You can believe that humans are born with empathy as much as you like, but that's flat out false.


edit: We're not born EVIL - We just don't know what empathy are - or grasp the concept of that other creatures than yourself have feelings.



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mr_d
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 09:16
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Quote: "I know that both from my own daughter"

maybe your daughter is just evil

I don't think it's a matter of children being born not knowing right from wrong (good and bad, etc), but just that to them the cost benefit equation works to their favour (i.e. they are not really punished to any significant degree for doing bad acts) and they get away with not being good - they get a thrill out of the response.

Quote: "empathy for creatures bigger that insect and better be fluffy. Would you feel anything about dead fish or chicken"

that's because these days, most kids don't even know where their food comes from, and if they do then they don't really care (but still know to some extent that it's wrong), but their own needs/wants are more important in comparison.

Quote: "All living things value reproduction over death"

Quote: "Their goal is reproduction, not survival"

this is just a matter of semantics; i.e. why reproduce at all if not to propagate life to the next generation?
i.e. reproduction is the means to new life.

A interesting side note: I remember something that I heard in a documentary sometime ago which has stuck in my memory; I don't know how true it actually is, but the gist of it was that humans are the only species that apparently control when they perform the act of reproduction (for pleasures sake), all other species supposedly only do it when the time is right (ie. they are in heat or it's the right season)...

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Seditious
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 10:09 Edited at: 7th Feb 2014 10:10
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Quote: "I do now that empathy is something that has to be LEARNED"


If only it could be learned, it could be taught to all the violent criminals.

Quote: "You're not born with empathy (hence why children are VERY happy to drag your beard - even though you continue screaming - or why hitting dogs are completely fine - after they've learned that hitting humans aren't - you have to TEACH them that it's wrong.)"


I think these things are partially due to the child not yet understanding the golden rule. And they don't necessarily understand that these things may hurt someone else.

Btw, it's "hitting humans isn't", unless you are talking about a "hitting human" ie. a human that hits. Just thought I'd point that out since I see a few people making this mistake. The verb agrees with the noun, in this case a noun phrase (hitting humans).
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Van B
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 12:19
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Nah, Mr_D - just go to a park, or a zoo, monkeys and dogs are as 'bad' as us - but most animals have a seemingly more intellectual attitude. Like, animals won't breed if the area isn't safe or there aren't enough resources.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 15:18
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Quote: "Humans are born with empathy."

Why children don't understand what death is? Humans born with default perks like auto breath, hunger and lust, and some perks like love or responsibility they gain at level up, but flexible system G.O.D. allows to choose any perk at any level. You can choos your first profession as "evildoer" and gain +10 evil aura, so that will giv you some + and - because G.O.D. patching and balancing for las few thousand of years, it's pretty good system.
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Quik
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 15:47 Edited at: 7th Feb 2014 15:48
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Quote: "If only it could be learned, it could be taught to all the violent criminals.
"


That's like saying: "All people can understand supermegarocketsceience (good word)" - no, everyone can't learn that. Everyones brains work differently and we all take in different kinds of knowledge better than others.



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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 16:03
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Quote: "Everyones brains work differently"

Objection! Don't mess brain's work and it's content.

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Quik
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 16:15
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Quote: "Objection! Don't mess brain's work and it's content.
"


I'm pretty sure I didn't. I'm saying that everyone has different learning paces and can learn certain things more effectivly than others.



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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 16:36
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Objection. Blah blah blah lots of text about psychology goes here blah. If you force your children from birth do math and they will at least don't hate it - you surely will get a pair of super-nerds. If you force your children from birth drink booze, pick up girls and other stuff - you surely will get a hostile criminals (or corpses). If you make your ... etc.

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Quik
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 16:54
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Quote: "Objection. Blah blah blah lots of text about psychology goes here blah. If you force your children from birth do math and they will at least don't hate it - you surely will get a pair of super-nerds. If you force your children from birth drink booze, pick up girls and other stuff - you surely will get a hostile criminals (or corpses). If you make your ... etc.
"

Absolutely. That's absolutely true - and somewhat related to what i'm getting at.
If you force your children to learn about morals from birth, then obv it will SEEM as if they were born with that knowledge.



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Seditious
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 17:06 Edited at: 7th Feb 2014 17:06
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Quote: "Everyones brains work differently and we all take in different kinds of knowledge better than others."


So you're saying some people don't have the capacity for empathy? I agree with that sentiment.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 7th Feb 2014 17:21
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Me feels itself agree now.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 8th Feb 2014 23:47
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Quote: "I don't think it's a matter of children being born not knowing right from wrong (good and bad, etc), but just that to them the cost benefit equation works to their favour (i.e. they are not really punished to any significant degree for doing bad acts) and they get away with not being good - they get a thrill out of the response."

Isn't that the same as not knowing right from wrong? If they felt bad about it then that would usually be enough negative stimulation to prevent them from doing it. We don't even have an innate ability to walk or talk so how on earth could we have something as complex and tenuous as morality hard-coded into our brains? How could we disagree on moral issues if morality were hard-wired? It is only on matters that have the most explicit and far-reaching consequences that we all agree on, such as murder and rape. Actually, we can't even agree on those two! I personally believe that capital punishment is immoral but there are plenty of people who think it is justified. And there are cultures that also see rape as justified under certain circumstances.

I don't mean to offend you, mr_d, as I don't know if you are even aware of implication of your statement, but it seems to me to imply that children are accountable for their own moral behaviour from birth, and that their upbringing and external influences have no responsibility for how the individual behaves in later life. I believe that we are the product of our environment and no one is truly to "blame" for their views or actions; that doesn't mean I want to release dangerous murderers, I would keep them locked up if they are a threat but I wouldn't feel any sense of justice. (That last bit is my own reflection, not an argument against you.)

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Quik
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Posted: 9th Feb 2014 01:26
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Quote: "I believe that we are the product of our environment and no one is truly to "blame" for their views or actions; that doesn't mean I want to release dangerous murderers, I would keep them locked up if they are a threat but I wouldn't feel any sense of justice. (That last bit is my own reflection, not an argument against you.)"

Exciting, someone who is delving into my view of things ^^



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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nonZero
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Joined: 10th Jul 2011
Location: Dark Empire HQ, Otherworld, Silent Hill
Posted: 9th Feb 2014 19:59
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Good and bad come from the same place: desire. It's your desire almost always. If you don't kill tje neighbour who steals your apples, it's because more of you wanted not to, that is you desired the higher ground OR you desired not to be caught -- ie you pussied-out, like a boss.

Me, I desire chocnut sundaes.

Formerly nonZero
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