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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Keep Calm Program On

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XanthorXIII
AGK Gold Backer
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 06:21
Hopefully this won't happen but yet I fear it is starting to happen already. Getting angry, frustrated, posting nasty posts will not get us any closer to having V2 completed. I don't think its called for in any given situation. I don't expect all of you to agree with me, but I think TGC needs to be given more time. The Kickstarter may have been a little ambitious and the time table ambitious, but I think that is because they were excited to bring us new features through it. This is the classic Sales People vs Programmers tale that has been told many times before. Sales People promise lofty goals and the programmers have to bring them back to Earth. This is where TGC needs to re-focus.
So here is what I ask of both sides, myself included as I am a Gold Backer.

Kickstarter Investors: Develop your games as much as you can. Get them working, test new ideas and refine. Learn C++ if you want to get into Tier 2 programming during this time, it will help you out greatly. Get a plan together of what you want to do. Sure programming a game is one thing but think of what you need to do to make it visible.

TGC: Refocus on AGK. Complete any project that will help you out in the long run financially wise but make sure to keep AppGameKit your top priority. Set realistic deadlines and tell us how you plan to stick to it. If you need to hire additional help please do so. Get someone on board that can help with getting deployment across many devices as you support. Maybe call the role Czar of Device Deployment researches building for multiple devices and document.

Now I can't say what TGC is doing or planning on doing, these are just suggestions but I would hope they would inspire them and everyone else on this board. I appreciate all they have done for us and think very highly of them.
Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Mar 2014 10:48
Everything takes longer than you expect, no matter how much experience you have, and in the computing world this is an inherent problem.

''How long will that take? 1 week?, great, see you in a month.''

People who work with me tend to allow a 200% deadline extension on anything I promise them, because although I'd give a estimate time, it'll always be an ideal - it won't allow for anything going wrong, anything posing more of a challenge. I could meet deadlines, but I'd never be happy with the work. Paul probably isn't feeding back because he's stuck in developer mode - where every spare second should be spent on coding, any time spent not coding is a waste, including eating and sleeping.

Anyway, just saying I agree - hang in there guys, the end results will be better than if they had met the deadline, I'm sure of it. We don't need any rushed features, or bugged implementations, we need a solid platform that will nudge AGKv1 to the side and make all the awesome happen.

I am the one who knocks...
The Daddy
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 12:27
Firstly, of course all purchasers of V1.xx, I am sure were upset when TGC announced V2! Of course investors in V2 will be unhappy that not only are deadlines not met, but those deadlines that have been met have issues! This is a natural progression of the software release cycle.

Of course, in an ideal world, we would get what we expect when it is promised!

I feel we must keep in mind that, unfortunately, the TGC AppGameKit 'team' is.....small! This is due to several things, first being financial restrictions and the second being other project focus. Now before you all say, 'so stop work on FPSC R and focus on AGK', would you put all your eggs in one basket? Will you only release one game? Will you employ (paid) one or more other people to help you? Probably not!

Also, as said above, being annoyed is an understandable feeling, venting that in the forum is not useful. At best it will be ignored, at worst, you may put others off buying into V2! The more people that BUY AppGameKit V2, theoretically the more funds are available for development in the future.

Of course TGC would, IMHO, do well to release MONTHLY reports on what, in AppGameKit, is being worked on, why it is not easy, what is the next item they will work on. This would, as a minimum, confirm work is being actively undertaken. Other cross platform engines do this and it works.

As you may be aware, AppGameKit pascal is now at v1.088, which gives another, probably more robust development option. I am not pushing AppGameKit pascal here as I will do that elsewhere, but what I am pointing out is that the more *stable* development options available, the wider the audience.

Another thing those that are frustrated should ask themselves is "why did I buy Agk over another product?", outside of 'I have stuck with TGC since 19xx', I would think that the cost was low compared to other options, the one off payment rather than yearly subscriptions, the option of BASIC providing those with little coding skill to write games on different platforms, other Tiers providing those with more experience to have more control whilst giving the option of adding to AppGameKit, that the forums provide a good response to coding problems you may have....

Of course TGC MUST play their part, they must focus on development and not see it as a 'thorn in their side' rather the possibility of creating a leading product which will provide a great legacy! They SHOULD provide monthly updates of AppGameKit, maybe even a development blog as we have with FPSCr...this will go a long way...,they SHOULD be more visibly active...this puts people at ease!

I would state that as far as AppGameKit pascal is concerned, Rick Vanner was very helpful in creating a forum fork for it and allowing the latest version to be uploaded etc.! For that I am grateful.

We ALL want a final product, in which we can do everything we want on all the platforms we want. In reality, what software really offers this.....homestly?

www.bitmanip.com
All the juicy you could ever dream of!
The Daddy
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 12:34
Also, what may help TGC IMHO is, like FPSCr, let AppGameKit have its own webspace...let it be more of a focus?

I also wonder if TGC have done any valid research AppGameKit? What percentage use basic, what percentage use Tier 2 & 3, what is the average time a user takes to develop an app from coding start to release, what would people most like TGC to focus on?

The last one is asking for flack, BUT, if a majority want feature X before feature Y, it gives TGC development focus.

I have also wondered for a long time why TGC is only released with VC++ as its only C++ development option, why not mingw libraries? Other systems do this! Once again, it opens up development more in line with a true Indie! Just a thought!

www.bitmanip.com
All the juicy you could ever dream of!
JimHawkins
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 13:47
Because I'm an old fart, my long experience tells me that creating new "features" before the old "features" have been thoroughly tested can create a whole raft of subsequent problems.

There really should have been a "final" release of V1 before V2 was even embarked upon. V2 could then be Blue Sky for as long as it wanted to, with specific milestones reached if they were practical.

TGC did poll users asking what they required in V2. Needless to say, these requests were varied and many. Some wanted meat, some wanted salad, many wanted pasta, and then there was the curry brigade.

FPSC-R has frequent blogs and pictures. Why is that? Because FPSC-R is PC-only. AppGameKit is vastly more problematic, and I feel sorry for Paul. New Android devices come out every five minutes, each with their own little featurettes. This cross-platform stuff is a nightmare.

Nobody wants Paul to take his eye off the ball to make blogs - but he can report to somebody else, like Rick, who can then give some feedback.

It totally agree about the use of VC++. About 99% of the posts about C++ concern template problems with the 900 flavours of incompatible templates as a result of version conflicts in VC++. GnuC++ or any other open source compiler would be a better choice for the Indie area. I suspect that a lot of slow-downs are caused by the archaic Basic compiler.

I'd like to see TGC give Paul more support, and give us a bit more information.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Marl
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 14:29
Quote: "This is a natural progression of the software release cycle."

No it's not - though it seems to be a stock answer these days.

Some years ago, I worked for a development company that produced timetabling software for a number of large transport companies. Projects had milestones, and those milestones had late delivery penalties - often hundreds of thousands per milestone.

No surprise then, that milestones were rarely missed. Any that were, had better explanations than "it's just the way it is in the software industry".
Van B
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 16:51
That's like comparing Pizza to Cats Marl. AppGameKit is not bespoke business software costing £500,000 and being sold to 1 or 2 companies - it's pointless to compare them and you know it!

Everyone who backed AGKv2 has a reason to complain.

Everyone who backed AGKv2 has a reason to let the delays slide and be patient.

Please don't waste your time explaining why my opinion on this is wrong.

I am the one who knocks...
nz0
AGK Developer
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 17:48
Everyone has different requirements and expectations. I personally will soldier on with V1 for a while yet and won't dabble in v2 until it's stable enough to develop a game in, even though I am also a gold backer.

Whilst I have had my share of problems with v1, I have managed to overcome or work around them - which may be an interesting challenge for me, not so for others.

I am thinking about my next project, but won't be relying on v2 to be ready, as there's plenty that can still be done with v1.

Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 19:10
Quote: "AGK is not bespoke business software costing £500,000 and being sold to 1 or 2 companies - it's pointless to compare them and you know it!"


I have to disagree. They asked for money to help produce an enhanced product. People obliged but aren't seeing much progress. This totally is a business, and it's a product that's already been paid for by many people. Milestones most certainly should be met, or at least come close. From what I've been hearing, they're not behind just a little, they're behind by a lot. Why do you think those people should just let that slide? Doesn't matter the size of the company or the cost of the project. People paid for certain promises that so far haven't been fully kept.

At least they should give regular updates on progress. I had to report daily on my progress as a developer, it's not asking them too much to take 30min to write up a quick report once a week. If anything, it reassures their customers that they're still working.

xCept
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 19:46 Edited at: 4th Mar 2014 19:49
The persistent communication black hole between TGC and its users only fuels the frustration. For months I and others have pleaded for some form of regular communication about V2, even weekly or bi-weekly status updates. Lee had been doing this during the Freedom Engine era, and is currently doing a superb job with FPSC:R via daily blog updates, forum interaction and Q&As about the product.

Since this is a Kickstarter-funded project, it should be TGC's utmost responsibility to send out regular updates about any progress and delays. We are now approaching 11 weeks without a single Kickstarter update about development, only a few words about the t-shirts. Development isn't just lagging, it is approaching half a year behind schedule. Surely Rick understands the PR and marketing consequences of such poor communication.

As others have mentioned, TGC really should pull out good old MS Project and create realistic and very specific milestones, goals and deadlines while tracking progress. This project plan should be sent regularly to backers for us to see the progress and what areas are falling behind.
The Zoq2
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 20:57
Quote: "The persistent communication black hole between TGC and its users only fuels the frustration."


This is most likley the main reason everyone is upset. We all know that software development takes time, and we know that setting realistic (finishing all the features of V2 by february was never realistic) deadlines and following them is very difficult. Most people would normally accept the delay with the mindset that they will get a better product in the end. In this case the issue is that we have no information about the progress, almost nothing has been said for a few months and what was said was that Paul wasn't even working on the project right now. I noticed that after the kickstarter had ended, TGC were actually doing some updates whenever new features were implemented, that was just enough, we got to see what was working and some form of communication. I also noticed this line in the risks and challenges section of the kickstarter page
Quote: ""We will work through these challenges until we find a suitable solution. We will also talk with our backers to gain their views of any such problems and how best to fix them.""


Quote: "Because I'm an old fart, my long experience tells me that creating new "features" before the old "features" have been thoroughly tested can create a whole raft of subsequent problems."


This seems to be one of TGCs biggest issues, they move on from projects, they start to work on 3d before they are done with 2d. It seems like the whole compiler is built on an old compiler which nobody knows how to change which causes a lot of weird bugs in the language itself. The features in the current alpha versions are not working propperly on one platform and last time anything was said, it sounded like they are now moving on to the 3d features. Wouldn't it be better to finish the 2d features on all platforms and make sure they are working, then start working on the 3d features.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
bjadams
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 22:40
@Daddy: I bought AppGameKit v1 and I was NOT disappointed when AppGameKit v2 was announced. AppGameKit v1 had a life of 1 year and it's price paid for itself.

But I am disappointed that AppGameKit v2 Android & IOS are nowhere to be seen, as I paid KS money for nothing
bjadams
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 22:43
Also some talented people on the forum (Like GEKKO) even wanted to buy the source code of AppGameKit v1 and fix the bugs & problems and then offer the new version free for users.

Why don't TGC talk to these knowledgeable people who want to help?
The Zoq2
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 23:18
I agree with both things bjadams said, TGC always said that they would eventually make a new version of AppGameKit which would need to be purchased again.

Giving the source to gekko might be a bad idea for TGC though since they would probably be undermining their product in some way, however letting gekko edit the code and make bugfixes to V1 and publishing it via TGC shouldn't be an issue for TGC. I do understand if they don't just want to sell the whole source code to someone who could become a compeditor in the future using their own code My guess is that since gekko is willing to pay for the code, he wouldn't have anything against doing his changes for TGC for free, he will still have the benefits and not have to pay

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
JimHawkins
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Posted: 4th Mar 2014 23:48
GEKKO can't get Eclipse to work. He's the last person to give it to!

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 03:06 Edited at: 5th Mar 2014 03:09
nice....

Well yeah id say the same... keep coding on! Use dbpro if your wanting to go back to animated 3d model support. Then convert your project/code once v2 becomes available. Or use v1 for now....

Im a v2 backer and will never ask for my money back as v1 has earned me enough money easy enough to invest back into the product. I stand patient and strong!

xGEKKOx
AGK Master
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 13:32
If i was a KickStarter pledger i would request the refund.
That's all.

Gekko maybe don't get it working under Eclipse, but Gekko do in 1 day what you do in 1 month, maybe Gekko can do 1 update a day, and fix 1 bug a day, and much more important, to talk to users.

In the end, is important what you earn, not the words.
And i think users are bored of words (non words, as TGC don't speak anymore on this forum).

Long life to Steve!
The Zoq2
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 14:36
Gekko, if you are having troubble setting up eclipse, I can suggest trying to do it in linux instead, that means that you don't have to worry about cygwin when building the app. All I had to do was download the ADK (eclipse bundled with Android SDK) and use the SDK manager to install the APIs that are required (basicaly follow the android T2 guide until you get to the cygwin step). Then you just download the NDK and build the app using it

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
xGEKKOx
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 15:08
Zoq, the problem is not that it doesn't work at all, but the problem is it sometimes work and sometimes not.
Eclipse lost the settings 3 times on 5....
I have the AppGameKit with my personal template under NetBeans, that work better than eclipse, but is AppGameKit that crash with no reason.
You can do a game that do nothing at all and it work. But if you do a game that require more codings, it crash, and i have no time to see where it crash in the AGK.
This is a TGC problem, not mine.

When i pay for a product i want it work 100%, or at least it got updated regularly.

I know is cheap, but the Italian in this forum is me not TGC.
TGC now is having a typical Italian mind....

Long life to Steve!
JimHawkins
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 15:20
GEKKO - Eclipse is not an TGC product. Cygwin is not an TGC product. Android is not an TGC product.

I strongly suspect that it's your code that is to blame. If my programs crash I don't blame the compiler. I put more debug in and try to isolate the problem.

Random crashes are usually because of a time-critical assumption that is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
xGEKKOx
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 15:42 Edited at: 5th Mar 2014 15:42
Jim are you really thinking i come from Mars?
You know.... i think Eclipse is by TGC and Android is by Apple....
This forum is becoming a funny place.

Are you using TIER 2 for Android????
Pass me your Template + Export Eclipse settings, and i will trust you or who ever do it.

I offered also money for the setting and template, and nobody answered, so for me all words are air until i see a real template and settings.

Long life to Steve!
The Zoq2
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Posted: 5th Mar 2014 15:53
The android template lite worked out of the box for me and so far I havn't had any problems with crashes that I havn't caused.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Naphier
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Posted: 13th Mar 2014 17:51
Scott's first law -
Never tell them how long it will really take.

Lost Dragon
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Posted: 14th Mar 2014 00:04
Admittedly I have seen better organized and better run Kickstarter after-care.

I can work with v1 for a while.

If v2 never appears or if it fails to meet its advertised goals then I will move on (and never purchase another TGC product again, but that should go without saying).

I only give people and companies on Kickstarter one shot to pull through.

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