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Geek Culture / Could the Earth be hidden in the CMB?

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 12:29
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Well? What do you think? Possible? Yes or No?
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MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 13:17
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CMB

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 14:30
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Yes... I think you've completely figured it out. Earth, a tiny spec in the sandpit that is the universe, is mirrored very poorly in the CMB for some reason.

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Seditious
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 14:31
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Yes, because the observable universe is the same shape as a planet...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 14:34
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It doesn't really show what the other 'islands' are. It's a rather vague representation.

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 14:49 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 14:53
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If it was the Earth I am thinking of some sort of gravity reference, or a reflection of some sort. Or even a stream of Neutrinos from the sun passing through the Earth. If you imagine where plank is positioned, and pointing L2, the image would be concave most likely. I had difficulty getting the shapes into the right positions, but concave helps.
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Seditious
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 16:00
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Quote: "If it was the Earth I am thinking of some sort of gravity reference, or a reflection of some sort. Or even a stream of Neutrinos from the sun passing through the Earth. If you imagine where plank is positioned, and pointing L2, the image would be concave most likely. I had difficulty getting the shapes into the right positions, but concave helps."


Yes, if you try really hard to make yourself think it has something to do with Earth you can make yourself think it has something to do with Earth . Reminds me of this:

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 16:18
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You can make the inflating Earth idea work as well. Everything has to be checked out.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 17:38
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In what way can you make the inflating Earth idea work?

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 18:16 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 18:17
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Quote: "In what way can you make the inflating Earth idea work?"


Some people have suggested an inflating Earth causing continental drift. You can make it work if black holes are super dense objects, and not actually black holes. These super dense objects are making a comeback in science at the moment. They would trap energy, and this would scale matter down. This matter then becomes Dark Matter, and shoots out of the black hole sideways. Dark Matter would be like HD particles. These particles would eventually hit the Earth, and shrink matter down into HD atoms. The HD atoms working from top to bottom of the Earth is relatively the same as an inflating Earth. Life becomes smaller, dinosaurs disappear. You get a red shift from shrinkage.

That's how you can make it work, with real observations. It doesn't mean that it's true though. Just that you can make it work.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 18:47
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This slightly reminds me of Pincho's infamous old thread... only this one is much less crazy!

You have to keep in mind that the Earth really wasn't around at the birth of the Universe, so... how would this theory work, then? Also Earth started out as kind of a big blob of goo that slowly took its shape due to gravity and grew landscapes thanks to volcanic eruptions (read: God ate a burrito and burped a big one!), also Pangaea happened and moved the continents...


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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 18:52
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I don't think that Planck is seeing something far away. It is near the Earth, and perhaps seeing a projection of The Earth nearby. Scientists have recently found zebra stripes on the inner radiation belt...

http://www.sen.com/news/twin-probes-discover-zebra-stripe-pattern-in-earth-s-inner-radiation-belt

So you just extend the stripes outwards.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 19:04
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Well you made one portion of the idea work I'll grant you that, simultaneously ignoring any other issues that such a preposterous theory would provide.

Your evidence is not evidence at all. You took a picture and painted lines around it the very slightly resembles that of Earth but more or less ignores white and dark spots that are inconvenient. According to your idea there should be a large island between south america and africa which of course there is not.

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 19:11 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 19:14
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Not really. If you get 80% of the Earth, you can get 20% of something else. You are not ignoring anything. Even my rear projection TV has bits in it. I said in my post "Can the Earth be hidden in the CMB?" I didn't say it was all the Earth.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 19:36 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 19:37
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You might be a little off. Also I find it quite shocking that the CMB map is oriented exactly the same way we commonly map the Earth. In fact I would like you to provide evidence that the CMB map was taken in the same orientation.



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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 19:42
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Quote: "...If you get 80% of the Earth, you can get 20% of something else. You are not ignoring anything. Even my rear projection TV has bits in it. I said in my post "Can the Earth be hidden in the CMB?" I didn't say it was all the Earth."



I... I don't even follow what you're trying to say here...

Now this is really starting to remind me of Pincho!


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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 19:47
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He's saying that it's not a perfect representation of the Earth because what scientists are trying to measure is also making an impression.

Which basically means he can ignore any data he doesn't like cuz it's inconvenient.

Interestingly enough, my friend John's face matches up pretty closely to the CMB I believe it must be more than a coincidence. I would hypothesize that the Earth has somehow shaped his face.

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:00 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:10
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The CMB is taken from L2 it looks like this...

https://community.emc.com/people/ble/blog/2011/09/16/deeper-into-cosmology-inflation

L2 is an orbit in a position similar to the Earth image, probably because the Earth image is also taken close to L2 in the middle. Plank satellite points around the Earth. I don't know the exact location of the projection point. It could be the sun, or gravity, or the magnetic field.

But by saying that the orientation looks right, you seem to be admitting that it looks like the Earth.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:01 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:03
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I retract my earlier statement, stating that this thread is less crazy than Pincho's. *retracts*

That being said, it is a rather fun idea... but that's all it is. An idea. It's not even a theory. Just because it looks ... similar (I really hesitate to even say that) ... doesn't mean that's what it is. As Jericho said, it's an amazing coincidence that the way the CMB looks matches the orientation of the way we map our small little chunk of space.


Quote: "But by saying that the orientation looks right, you seem to be admitting that it looks like the Earth."


....No, no, you have that all wrong, I believe. It looks almost nothing like the earth, and just slapping a really crappy MS Paint job over a certain section to make it look like Earth (which, btw, it wouldn't look anything like how Earth looks right now due to PANGEA) was what he was saying. I think.


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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:12 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:20
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Why do you think that the image would be as old as Pangea? It would be nearby. The planck satellite is nearby. They have to delete the Milky Way from the image, and that is close by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background

Quote: " in practice, the galaxy has to be removed, resulting in a CMB map that is not a full-sky map"
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:17 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:21
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Quote: "....No, no, you have that all wrong, I believe. It looks almost nothing like the earth, and just slapping a really crappy MS Paint job over a certain section to make it look like Earth (which, btw, it wouldn't look anything like how Earth looks right now due to PANGEA) was what he was saying. I think."


The Earth wasn't around at the formation of the universe, so Pangea has nothing to do with it. The CMB map looks nothing like the Earth. Look at the position of Australia. The lack of Antarctica on the CMB map, the spots in the middle of the oceans and the blank areas where there should be continents. You can't say the map is different because of interference with both land mass and the lack of land. The CMB is measured like a photograph, radio waves coming in. The only interference would be additive, meaning you would either have too much "land mass" added to the map or if we're reading things backwards, too much water added to the map. You're just painting something that looks similar to our continents onto seemingly randomized data points. (As far as we can tell the hot and cool spots of the CMB is random and is what caused our universe to have galaxies, for if the explosion of the universe was truly evenly distributed we would have a universe filled with evenly spaced particles.)

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:27 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:28
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Like I said, it would be concave, and that would move Australia. And the sun angle would also move Australia, if the image is made by Neutrinos from the sun.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:28
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Visually it would look the same. Are you saying due to parallax? The elevation of the earth at that altitude of the map would have no discernible affect. What about the other issues?

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:31 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:33
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I'm saying that if it were a projection onto space through the Earth by Neutrinos from the sun, it would be at a strangely bent angle in the microwave background from L2.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:33
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It would also only affect data from the detectors that are pointed straight at the sun :/

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:34 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:36
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No a projection, a hologram. The planck satelllite never points at the sun, is follows the Earth around the sun. Neutrinos pass right through the Earth. They may have a slight change through solid rock.
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Seditious
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:39
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While I appreciate your enthusiasm your ideas are grounded in nothing more than fantasy, sorry.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:41
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And the reason we have light spots and darkspots in the wrong places?

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:44 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 20:45
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Neutrinos passing through the Earth may change states to become tau and electron neutrinos...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7101-zapped-neutrinos-zip-through-the-earth.html#.Uy85S86F8fM


Quote: "And the reason we have light spots and darkspots in the wrong places?"


Because the Planck satellite is looking for a microwave background, so it is finding one.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:47
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Is background microwave only the dark or the light spots on the CMB map?

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 20:58
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It's a temperature map of the microwave background. It has some editing done on it to remove things. Hard to say if they removed everything.
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Matty H
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 21:35
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I came on to make a point that has already been made:

Quote: "You might be a little off. Also I find it quite shocking that the CMB map is oriented exactly the same way we commonly map the Earth. In fact I would like you to provide evidence that the CMB map was taken in the same orientation."


What are the odds? Not only is the orientation spot on but the translation too. Unless the CMB reader secretly took a peek at one of our maps

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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 21:50
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I find the orientation odd too. I would have thought that a projection would be mirrored. The only way to make it not mirrored is to have the Neutrinos passing through Australia first, and then out the other side of the Earth.
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nonZero
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 22:09 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2014 22:12
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The Earth wasn't a sphere. It was, like all celestial bodies, a cube that was worn down into its shape by corrosion from space and many schools of space fish that swam in it millions of years ago before they were extinct by a team of time-travellers who came from future earth to ensure the fish got wiped out or earth would be too corroded in the future and not the shape it is now but more a rounded pyramid.
What? You disagree with my theory? You're all idiots!!!

...Sorry, just had to when I saw this thread going this direction. Just ignore my silliness. Now everyone's had a little laugh (for those who remember how all physics were proven wrong by an mspaint image an alleged DarkBasic program), I hope. Seriously, from what I understand of it, it's interesting and there's nothing shameful in hypothesizing about it. But, OP, friendly warning: these guys are tough and they'll rip you a new one if they think you're being stubborn so I'd suggest maintaining a flexible attitude when they point out flaws in your thinking. I was present in two Pincho threads and it got ugly because he got stubborn and ended up losing his cool. I felt sorry for him, he was smart but allowed himself to become obsessed with his 'theory of everything'. I'm not saying you will but this thread already has warning signs. I'd also hate TGC to ban scientific debate because of another thread gone bad.

Edit: Ah, everyone's back to playing nice, sorry put my phone down to do something and didn't refresh before my post... Yes, I'll put on my dunce cap and go sit in the corner now.


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2014 22:12
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Quote: "This matter then becomes Dark Matter"


I thought TGC had the rights to that.

Dark Matter



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