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AppGameKit Classic Chat / m4a files work with AGK, right?

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ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 29th Mar 2014 00:23 Edited at: 29th Mar 2014 00:30
I'm pretty sure I have the correct codecs, as I just went through something similar with .ogg files. But the music will not play, and I get these errors right after trying to play the .m4a file:



Keep trying more codecs?

EDIT: Not sure if this matters, but I can play .m4a's through Windows Media Player. So it would seem I have the codec already, right?
easter bunny
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Posted: 29th Mar 2014 02:15 Edited at: 29th Mar 2014 02:16
I'm pretty sure you need .mp4's for Android, iOS and Mac, and wmv's for Windows.

You could try reencoding your file with VLC making sure you use the right codecs for both Video and Audio

ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 29th Mar 2014 03:23
We're not looking to make a video, we're looking for audio. MP3's are out, and the audio engineer knew right away how to make m4a's, but wasn't sure how to make ogg's yet.

I saw a thread earlier that implied both ogg's and m4a's should work, but am having no luck with the m4a's.
ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 29th Mar 2014 04:11
Solved. Not sure if it was just user error, or that I didn't get enough of the codecs. I downloaded a codec pack from Microsoft, and also noticed my text file that I was loading things from didn't have the correct directory. I'm guessing it was both, actually.

Thanks!
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 29th Mar 2014 09:34
I wonder if you can get music to work on all platforms without mp3. You don't want to rely on the user getting drivers.

ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 29th Mar 2014 17:03
I think there is native support for Android and iPhone for .m4a.

Anyone know otherwise?
Naphier
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Posted: 30th Mar 2014 20:31
I would not use m4a
What's wrong with converting them to mp3?
Audactiy does it with lame and it is free.
Yes you may have to pay for MP3 licensing someday for your title, but only after distribution of 5000 titles.
http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/games.html

I do wish that an open format like OGG was supported on all platforms, but I doubt that will ever happen with iOS...
iPhone doesn't support much for audio formats so m4a is out of the question if you want to support iOS.

ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 30th Mar 2014 21:55
With my first title, I've gotten over 5000 sales already, so that's a pretty low threshold.

Why wouldn't you use m4a?
Naphier
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Posted: 30th Mar 2014 22:03
It is a low threshold, you're right.
I wouldn't use m4a because it doesn't work on iOS.

If it does then please tell me right away because I don't want to pay that licensing fee either!!

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 30th Mar 2014 22:20
How well is m4a supported on PC and Mac?

The big issue with the fee is that it doesn't take price of the software into consideration. I am scared to go over 5000 downloads on my alpha, which I will release for free.

ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 30th Mar 2014 23:02
Naphier, I thought I saw Paul Johnston say that m4a was definitely supported on iOS, but may be I mis-read it?

Digital Awakening, I was able to play m4a on my PC, but in order to play it on my app, it wouldn't work right away until I had downloaded some extra filters/codecs/whatever. My understanding is that the m4a format is essentially Apple's aac format (I might have gotten the letters wrong on that), so one would think it would have no issues playing on Mac. I agree also, that when you release it for free (ad-supported or freemium) it becomes a bigger issue.

I'll update if/when I find something that contradicts this.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 30th Mar 2014 23:19 Edited at: 30th Mar 2014 23:20
The best solution would be something that doesn't require the user to download anything else. Even if that means using different file formats for different platforms.

Naphier
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 00:58
I'm going to try out m4a on my 3GS this next week sometime. If it works I will be very happy and will have saved myself $2,500!

Paul made mention of updating AGK's sound system and I asked if OGG would work on all platforms, but I never heard an answer. If m4a works it would have also been nice to know. Instead there is so much focus on ouya...

Naphier
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 03:59
Well after a bit of research I've found that m4a is supported by android and ios pretty fully.
I'm not sure if AppGameKit can do them still, but this is great news since I can convet our mp3s over and save $2,500!!
I will test on iOS and Android this week and let you know if there are any bumps.

ManOfActionTM you rock!!
I asked so many times here about OGG and explained it was because of the licensing fee and not a single person knew about m4a.
You, sir, are owed a fat favor from me if this works!

ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 04:44
Well, I was able to get the m4a to work with PC AppGameKit, so hopefully it'll work on iOS and Android. Let me know what you come up with!

Good Luck!
Naphier
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 07:07
Well, I can play m4a on my Nexus 7 and 5 as well as my Droid Incredible 2 which is Android 2.3.

Won't play on Windows via AppGameKit (WMP and VLC have no issue).

What codec did you grab that helped, do you know? I'm not worried about windows support for m4a because I don't develop for Windows, but AppGameKit should make it work without the need of some obscure codec. Maybe OGG does now? I would like to be able to hear my game music without broadcasting to Android... So those codecs would be a nice link

I'll report back about the iPhone 3GS later this week, but from what I'm reading it looks like it will be good and at worse I'll need to change from AAC to ALAC.

ManOfActionTM
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 08:57
I think it was this one, Naphier:

http://www.windows7codecs.com/
JimHawkins
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 17:59
Ogg would have been supported in all browsers in HTML5 but, as usual, Apple refused.

Without installing codecs Windows will only support MPEG-1, WAV, MP3 and WMV. Don't confuse this with what Media Player or VLC will play, because they do NOT use the DirectShow filters.

If you want to use a specific filter, you should add it to your installer build to ensure that it's active. I know it's a pain, but that's the way it is. It's not AGK's fault.

I know all about this, so if you want more info, just ask!

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Naphier
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Posted: 31st Mar 2014 21:38
Works great, thanks. Now hopefully on to successful testing on iOS 6.

29 games
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Posted: 1st Apr 2014 22:15
Quote: "the audio engineer knew right away how to make m4a's, but wasn't sure how to make ogg's yet."


I don't know if you sorted out the ogg files (or if you still need to) but I use Audacity 1.3 beta (which is free) for all my music and sound and it'll export .ogg and .m4a (and .mp3 but you need to download a separate dll).

Naphier
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 01:46
Good news everyone!
I finally had the apportunity to test this on my 3GS and M4A is playing like a charm!
Thanks for saving me $2,500 (and more)!

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th May 2014 09:48
When I posted about music files for RTA on TIG Source I got this reply:

Quote: "For Break Blocks, I used OGG on all platforms: Mac, Windows, and iOS. M4A, if you're using the AAC codec, may require licensing fees, as well. On iOS, it is widely believed, though not necessarily confirmed, that if you use the native hardware decoder to play music(rather than implementing your own decoder), AAC is free. In my experience, though, unless you are playing multiple music streams or your game is CPU intensive, OGG decoding is perfectly fast on iPhone4S and above. On Android, I believe OpenSL/OGG is pretty standard, from what I can gather."


Naphier
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Posted: 20th May 2014 18:58
M4A/AAC codec does not require licensing to distribute. You can find thousands of references to this on the internet. The license that is required is for encoder/decoder development.
From the VIA Licensing site:


Since AppGameKit nor your game will likely contain an encoder/decoder, then you don't have to get licensing. MP3 is completely different and requires a license for distribution as well as encoding/decoding.

However, if we can get confirmation from AppGameKit that OGG will work with OpenAL that they are using, then I'd be happy to switch over because I'd prefer to use an open source product out of principle.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 22nd May 2014 12:42
m4a works on both of my Windows 7 PCs but ogg doesn't. So I'll be going with m4a and hope it works on everything.

Naphier
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Posted: 22nd May 2014 18:48
M4a won't work on many Windows machines. I had to install a codec for it myself. If you can use WMA then that is free of licensing and natively supported by windows.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 22nd May 2014 23:35
So AppGameKit have support for WMA? Then that sounds like a good solution for Windows. Will give it a try.

Naphier
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Posted: 22nd May 2014 23:37
Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure. Let us know how it goes.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 23rd May 2014 22:17 Edited at: 23rd May 2014 22:18
I got the same error as with OGG, asking for codecs. So far M4A is the best option for Windows, at least with AGK. All files plays in Winamp.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 23rd May 2014 22:47
My question right now is: What is the best solution? For example should we ask for OGG support? Would that solve all our problems? Or would for example WMA support be better for games released on PC? BTW, WMA takes up twice the space of MP3 and OGG while M4A is only slightly larger. If OGG works on all platforms without the end user having to install any drivers then that seems like the best solution. If we have a definite solution and enough people asking for it, then maybe we can make it happen!

JimHawkins
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Posted: 23rd May 2014 23:20
OGG would have worked on all platforms (for HTML5 support) but Apple wouldn't do it. It's NOT natively supported on Windows.

Only two things will work on all platforms without additional installation: WAV and MP3.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th May 2014 00:30
Quote: "OGG would have worked on all platforms (for HTML5 support) but Apple wouldn't do it. It's NOT natively supported on Windows."

OGG and M4A works on my new Windows 7 PC out of the box. M4A should work on Mac and iOS.

Quote: "Only two things will work on all platforms without additional installation: WAV and MP3."

And none of them is a good solution to music. Unless you can afford the MP3 license.

Naphier
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Posted: 24th May 2014 00:31
@DA - are you asking if we should ask AppGameKit to work on supporting these? The AppGameKit engine already supports all of these formats. There's no one single format solution for all platforms. I think it is more of an OS issue.
The solution is to pack the appropriate format for the platform. Also I understand your concern about the size of WMV, but when deploying for Windows PC does file size matter all that much?

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th May 2014 00:51
OGG and WMA doesn't work for me in AGK. MP3 and M4A does. I can play all files in Winamp and other programs.

Naphier
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Posted: 24th May 2014 01:23
I had to add a codec to Windows 7 Pro to get M4A to play.
I'm surprised and disappointed that WMA doesn't work via AppGameKit in Windows. That's a major bummer!

I believe VLC and Winamp and such have their own decoders built in for the most part. I could be wrong, but I've often had files play in VLC that won't in Windows Media player. I think they use software decoding to do that instead of hardware decoding, which is, I believe, what requires the codec.

Maybe there is a possibility that AppGameKit could have its own software decoder for OGG so that files work on all platforms. I think OpenSL might do this. But it's all a bit beyond my understanding.

wooo
After a bit of digging I found out this:
AGK uses DirectX for audio on Windows (not sure what on Mac) and openAL on mobile.
From microsoft I found:
Quote: "Audio formats. Music and sound effects can be stored in a variety of digital formats for your game. There are uncompressed formats, like WAV, and compressed formats like MP3 and OGG. The more a sample is compressed -- typically designated by its bit rate, where the lower the bit rate is, the more lossy the compression -- the worse fidelity it has. Fidelity can vary across compression schemes and bit rates, so experiment with them to find what works best for your game."


It certainly doesn't have a definitive list of formats to tell us! But from that statement it looks like OGG should be safe. I know I had to install a codec for W4A so I know it is not safe.
So... I think the only issue with OGG is iOS and maybe Mac. I don't really have time to set up a project for Mac just to test M4A, but if someone does it and wants to send the DMG file to me I'll give it a shot on my Mac which has nothing extra installed. Same goes for M4A.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th May 2014 10:51 Edited at: 24th May 2014 10:51
I just realized that I have CCCP installed. On audio it lists AAC so I guess that's why I got M4A support. It lists OGG only under containers. On my PC, Media Player Classic plays OGG files but not AGK. Does anybody got OGG files working in AppGameKit on Windows?

JimHawkins
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Posted: 24th May 2014 11:51
To make OGG work in AppGameKit you must install the OGG DirectShow filters.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th May 2014 15:04
That means that it currently doesn't matter if we use m4a or ogg. Unless AppGameKit could be made to work without installing anything, like media software does. That would be awesome.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 24th May 2014 16:09
Quote: " Unless AppGameKit could be made to work without installing anything, like media software does"


For example?

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th May 2014 16:20 Edited at: 24th May 2014 16:21
On my system Winamp, Media Player Classic and Audacity all play OGG but AppGameKit doesn't. So I guess that I don't have OGG installed.

Naphier
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Posted: 24th May 2014 18:53
Need a dll for ogg and m4a. This is pretty important for small devs that can't afford $2,500 per title or want to make a game fully free.

According to wikipedia:

Quote: "Almost all current computer media players include built-in decoders for AAC, or can utilize a library to decode it. On Microsoft Windows, DirectShow can be used this way with the corresponding filters to enable AAC playback in any DirectShow based player. Mac OS X supports AAC via the QuickTime libraries."


I think we need to make a case for AppGameKit to have software decoding for M4A at the very least. OGG would be great too, but I'm not convinced that they will play on Mac as easily.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th May 2014 21:34
Made a post about this on Facebook with a link to this thread. Hopefully we can get some reply.

Naphier
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Posted: 25th May 2014 01:13
Followed your lead hopefully more will follow too. FB post was a great idea!

TDavid
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Posted: 25th May 2014 06:15
According to mobiius, the use of mp3 is free on android and iphone. Is that right?

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=192140&b=41
Naphier
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Posted: 25th May 2014 06:23
Not according to everything else in the world. Including the MP# licensing website which make no distinction of the platform.
http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/games.html
Distribution specifically: http://www.mp3licensing.com/help/#5
Why would it be free to use on mobile, but not on desktop? Mobuiis is confusing the decoder/encoder licensing with distribution licensing.
The decoder/encoder licensing doesn't apply to us, but the distribution licensing does.
It is a very common issue also discussed among musicians who look to distribute their music on their own.

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 25th May 2014 15:41
In theory we could include an OGG/Vorbis decoder in AppGameKit, but it wouldn't be able to use the hardware to decode on mobile devices like M4A/AAC can, I don't know how that would affect performance. But we can't build an M4A decoder into AppGameKit for Windows since then we become subject to the decoder license fee, and potentially users as well if they distribute an AppGameKit game.

Either way it would require a huge rewrite of the music subsystem, so for now I recommend using M4A as it is widely supported on mobile devices, and if you want to distribute on Windows include a DirectShow M4A codec in your installer.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th May 2014 18:17
Quote: "include a DirectShow M4A codec"


Do you or anyone else have a suggestion on which one we can distribute?

JimHawkins
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Posted: 25th May 2014 21:01
Try the KLite Codec Pack.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Naphier
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Posted: 25th May 2014 21:11 Edited at: 25th May 2014 21:13
Right, there a re a lot of Codec packs out there, but they all have a separate installer. Might not be a big deal to many users, but if you only need to ensure audio support I think I've found an option
http://1f0.de/lav-audio/
They have a zip file for the 32-bit and 64-bit codecs for many formats. The ZIP files contain bat files that will install just the audio, video, or splitters(not sure what those are for). It's all under GNU license so it is safe to redistribute and even modify. I'm not sure what files you'd exactly exclude if you just want the audio codecs. You might just be able to include all of the files in your installer and run the install_audio.bat file. I don't have time to test it out on my Win 7 PC that has no codecs installed.
I'll post here if I find out more options.

EDIT:
Also I've no idea how to programatically determine if a system is 32 or 64 bit so to know what package to install. Could be a big reason why there are always a 32-bit and 64-bit installer for many programs. Maybe just going with 32-bit is always OK?

JimHawkins
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Posted: 25th May 2014 22:16
I'd use 32-bit for AGK. Really the filters need to be installed by a proper installer, and not a batch file: regserv32 really does need admin rights, and I doubt if it would work on Windows 8+ without a lot of fiddling.

The main problem is Tier 1. There are plenty of solutions for T2 and Pascal, where there's not need to use AGK's audio at all. Our language lab software uses an ffmpeg sub-system, which plays just about everything, and has video frame callbacks (for cut overlays or effects) and an audio block callback for audio manipulation.

For T1, having Lua would solve a lot of things. Lua can interface to DLLs or dynamic libraries. Reloaded uses Lua extensively, so I can't understand why T1 can't massively extend its power by using Lua.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
Naphier
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Posted: 25th May 2014 23:01
@Jim - good points on the admin rights. That site also has a standalone installer. The problem is mainly with T1, you're correct.
Vorbis doesn't require licensing fees for the decoders. AppGameKit could include a decoder for that so we have OGG.
http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#com
But as Paul says that would require a major rewrite of the audio system. This is a bit of a bummer as it seems we are just stuck with either trying to write an installer that also installs a codec pack or using mp3 on Windows/Mac.
I've no clue how to write an installer that does this and most of the installer building tools/wizards I've found to be quite shoddy.
I doubt if any of them include a way to install 2 packages.
sigh

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