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Geek Culture / Newsletter Puzzle - April 2014

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Hodgey
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Posted: 4th Apr 2014 00:16
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Quote: "According to Wikipedia, double factorials are odd numbers only."

Did you read the "Extension" part? It has a definition for even numbers. I've also seen a few sources across the net which show double factorial for even numbers. It's not a great stretch of the mind to see it work for even numbers.

Quote: "The various "double factorial" solutions seem to add to the misery"

I thought it worked quite nicely.
PS - those eyes in your sig GG are hypnotic.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 4th Apr 2014 00:27
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Quote: "PS - those eyes in your sig GG are hypnotic."


They probably infringe some health and safety regulations as well.



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nonZero
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Posted: 4th Apr 2014 08:56
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Quote: " Quote:"notation of 8^1/3 implies 8/3"http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=8^1%2F3"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations
Your site is not coded correctly. EXP, MUL, ADD. LHS to RHS. Parenthesis do change things which is why it's better practice to always use them to avoid ambiguity.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Apr 2014 19:24 Edited at: 4th Apr 2014 19:50
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And what about my version with counting circles in 8s? It was based on another puzzle btw.

Edit:
Quote: "Your site is not coded correctly."

Oh yeah, wolframalpha coded by lamers. Sure, pal.

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nonZero
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Posted: 4th Apr 2014 21:24
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Quote: "Oh yeah, wolframalpha coded by lamers. Sure, pal."

1) Us all makin' mistakes, even dem real smart uns.
2) It may be coded that way intentionally to make it user-centric. user_centric!=coded_correctly.
3) Dude, smile. I just spouted an opinion. Ya don't gotta agree wit it or nuthin'


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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 00:33 Edited at: 5th Apr 2014 00:35
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http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zh100ckf.aspx
Quote: "
exp5 = 8 ^ (1.0 / 3.0)
exp6 = 8 ^ (-1.0 / 3.0)

exp5 is set to 2 (cube root of 8).
exp6 is set to 0.5 (1.0 divided by the cube root of 8).

Note the importance of the parentheses in the expressions in the preceding example. Because of operator precedence, Visual Basic normally performs the ^ operator before any others, even the unary – operator. If exp4 and exp6 had been calculated without parentheses, they would have produced the following results:

exp4 = -5 ^ 4 would be calculated as –(5 to the fourth power), which would result in -625.
exp6 = 8 ^ -1.0 / 3.0 would be calculated as (8 to the –1 power, or 0.125) divided by 3.0, which would result in 0.041666666666666666666666666666667."


Microsoft recommends to use brackets. But... look at their example fractions - they have decimal numbers. Wolframalpha and DarkBasic handles both 8^-1/3 and 8^1/3 correctly, but 8^1.0/3.0 or 8^-1.0/3.0 truly need to have brackets. Programs are smarter then you think when it comes to normal fractions like 1/3 and others. Also all programs know that 0.333333333333333*3=1, not 0.999999999999999

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 01:47
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Quote: "DarkBasic handles both 8^-1/3 and 8^1/3 correctly"


Confusing example.

DBPro (I can't speak for DB itself) evaluates the latter as 2 - probably because of integer arithmetic rather than misplaced operator precedence. On the other hand 8.0^1/3 is evaluated to the probably more or less correct 2.66667.



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K3rn3L
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 02:54
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Got them all, and found an interesting way of answering all of these the same way, as well as really any 3 numbers.



The other way.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 03:57
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Quote: "On the other hand 8.0^1/3 is evaluated to the probably more or less correct 2.66667"


My instincts would think a computer would interpret that as (8^1) / 3 since without parenthesis it wouldn't know the 3 was part of the same superscript and would simply rely on basic order of operations.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 06:02 Edited at: 5th Apr 2014 06:02
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A superscript and subscript key on a keyboard, similar to shift, would be really nice for things like this. And of course, fonts that supported the scripts correctly.

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nonZero
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 09:15
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Why I put everything in parenthesis. It's sad but you can't rely on higher levels of machine functionality to have a certain behavior (the correct one) any more. This is a prime example as the code "knows" what the user means. I find this behaviour trend annoying because everything then becomes harder to use out-the-box for people who actually know what they're doing while the target audience still have a steep learning curve because, well, they aren't that way inclined. I'd like to cite Win8's new Metro GUI as a perfect example. Those working with PCs for years expect a certain functionality and it does the opposite of anything you want it to. On the other hand, people who lack experience or computer know-how suffer the same thing as they would in any environment; confusion. Theirs is incurable but the industry doesn't get that so we keep seeing interaces attempting to understand the user when, to be quite brutal, the user should understand the interface (and in turn it should behave in a predictable manner, ie take everything literally with no presumption). So the user types x^y/z, the interface should take it at face value and the user should learn to use better notation. Creating uniform interfaces is probably the biggest challenge this century but I believe it's possible through using absolute basic logic, adhering to standards and, for the first time in well over a decade, saying "tough, the user will have to just learn".


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 10:35 Edited at: 5th Apr 2014 10:38
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AHH!! What you said sums up my opinion quite perfectly. Windows 8 makes me cry for that reason, btw.

What really ticked me the ***** off was when say, I had one instance of Notepad opened, and I wanted another one. I would go use the stupid start search thingy to find it, and when I clicked on it, instead of starting a new Notepad like I intended and expected it to do, and like any other version of Windows would do, it just took me to the one I already had running. I think I almost threw the computer at the wall when it did that.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 11:02
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I went laptop shopping with my mom and every employee kept saying the same thing; yea you can use win8 without a touchscreen but you should really buy the touchscreen to make it work well. Did microsoft forget that not all of us are using tablets because we need a pc to do real work?

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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 12:24
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Quote: "I find this behaviour trend annoying"

I find annoying to write 0,33333333333333333333333333333333 instead of 1/3, 0,16666666666666666666666666666667 instead of 1/6 and so on in my code.

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nonZero
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 13:00 Edited at: 5th Apr 2014 13:07
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With regard to the posts just before the abovepost...
Apparently this sort of thing is "the future". Imagine a world where there's no need for a PC, we all have tablets tied to an OS and built with cheap and nasty components. Desktop and server PCs become a niche once more and society regresses into the Legion of Stupid, playing Crappy Turd and watching YouTube videos of dancing Santa-Clauses, cats with singing mouths superimposed on them and old people slipping off deck chairs, all-the-while stuffing their faces with cardboard-flavoured processed food and laughing at everyone else because of how clearly unique and individual they are.

I'm so good at painting a picture of a dystopian future yet here I sit, not even doing so much as an armchair-crusade towards stopping it. That makes ME the even bigger joke. /off-topic

Disclaimer (for those members who always chew my ear off for my social commentary and conspiracy-thoeries as they are bound to find this): This post is light-hearted and the result of my inescapable digression. It is satyrical reflection of society's faults as well as the faults of those who're aware of those faults.


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 13:04
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Quote: "It's sad but you can't rely on higher levels of machine functionality to have a certain behavior (the correct one) any more. This is a prime example as the code "knows" what the user means."


I agree.

Quote: "My instincts would think a computer would interpret that as (8^1) / 3 since without parenthesis it wouldn't know the 3 was part of the same superscript and would simply rely on basic order of operations."


Agree with that as well.

Quote: "I find annoying to write 0,33333333333333333333333333333333 instead of 1/3, 0,16666666666666666666666666666667 instead of 1/6 and so on in my code."


I've never found a need to do that - so it certainly doesn't annoy me.

Quote: "What really ticked me the ***** off was when say, I had one instance of Notepad opened, and I wanted another one. I would go use the stupid start search thingy to find it, and when I clicked on it, instead of starting a new Notepad like I intended and expected it to do, and like any other version of Windows would do, it just took me to the one I already had running. I think I almost threw the computer at the wall when it did that."


If that is really true then that sounds like a good reason to avoid W8. I've been put off by every demo I've seen so far.

Will W9 make matters even worse though?



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nonZero
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 13:04 Edited at: 5th Apr 2014 13:11
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Quote: "I find annoying to write 0,33333333333333333333333333333333 instead of 1/3, 0,16666666666666666666666666666667 instead of 1/6 and so on in my code."

Then use parenthesis; (1/3) not 1/3. The only right way.

Edit: Fixed chronology of my previous post.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 16:59
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Microsoft recommends to use brackets too, but why if it is working without them in all languages? Let it go, it doesn't broken*

Also 8^1 = 8, why you even need this operation??

Also about notepad - have you tried to middle-click on it's icaon in taskbar? In Win7 it opens a new notepad. (also same does winkey+numberkey)

Quote: "I've never found a need to do that"

There is no cuberoot command in DarkBasic, and some calculations require it.

*don't fix it then!!!!!111111

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 22:02
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Quote: "If that is really true then that sounds like a good reason to avoid W8. I've been put off by every demo I've seen so far. "
Lol. And of course, that's not the only issue with Windows 8 obviously, but it's definitely one of the many symptoms arising from the 'Appeal to the new users' design paradigm that MS used to create Windows 8.

I'm trying to think of another silly thing 8 did... You see, I got a laptop back in the summer, and 8 came on it. I put up with 8 for a long time, but I have recently installed 7 over it. It's back to heaven, from hell! I guess the most obvious thing wrong with it is the complete omission of the traditional interface. You can get around it, but it's just a bear.

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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Apr 2014 22:53
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If you want the windows 7 experience in windows 8 just install Pokki. I have it installed and never use the metro interface. If you need an endorsement it's preinstalled on all new Lenovo machines.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 00:57
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Quote: "There is no cuberoot command in DarkBasic, and some calculations require it."


Very true - but I've never found the need to do it this way:



(which would be very silly in DBPro anyway).



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 01:35
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My laptop was a Lenovo, but I guess I got it too long ago for it to have had that. I installed things like Start 8, but that caused sooo many problems. But yeah, glad to be back on 7 again!

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nonZero
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 11:08 Edited at: 6th Apr 2014 13:13
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Quote: "Microsoft recommends to use brackets too, but why if it is working without them in all languages? Let it go, it doesn't broken*

*don't fix it then!!!!!111111"


<Insert Dr Cox's "Wrong Song">

It does NOT work in all languages.
In C and C++, the ^ symbol is a bitwise operation known as XOR (True only if 0 OR 1 when "XOR'ing" numbers) so it'll give you an answer which is chalk and cheese.
In DarkBasic, 8^1/3 will give you an answer of 2. However, 64^1/3 will give you 21 as an answer.
Try:

Return value for "myval" is 21 which is not the cube root of 64 (it's 4).

So why? DBP does this: 8^1/3 = (8^1)/3 = 8/3 = 2. The casting system in DBP is about as stable as me when I drink too much. It performs lots of casts in the asm output (as previously posted by many users) somewhere in the process, it very poorly casts floats to ints by simply dropping everything beyond the decimal. This is seen in the 64^1/3 example as 64/3 = 21.3...4 but 8/3 = 2.6...7 and yet they become 21 and 2.
Proof?

Output is 1. Should be 2 but it's 1. DBP is a game-creation language. DBP is not intended as a maths, physics or science language which is partly why when a certain user made a DBP simulation to prove his outlandish (but interesting) physics theories, he got flamed -- no immolated -- by the forumites.

Now enough trolling me, Handy, you're only supposed to troll n00bs. Gawd ><

Are you satisfied with this answer? Please rate this article below
Rate this answer: []1 []2 []3 []4 []5

Click here to download free RAM torrents from TPB


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 11:46
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Quote: "Click here to download free RAM torrents from TPB"
Quote: "You're a bad man!"


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nonZero
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 13:19
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@DJD: Verkeerde thread. Jy't in "News Letter Puzzle" thread gepos, maar dit lyk soos 'n "Postcom" pos. Het Ek iets gemiss?

(En ja, Ek spell rerig kak in Afrikaans, Ek weet did).


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 13:31 Edited at: 6th Apr 2014 13:33
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?!geen begryp!?

Error 285:
Foreign language 'Afrikaans' detected; the information transfer attempt failed due to a comprehension failure (Afrikaans language libraries not installed)

The brain user has been advised to take a foreign languages class.

Oh yeah you're right; I guess somewhat wrong thread. Well, I was calling you a bad man for posting the link to the illegal RAM torrent.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 14:00
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nonZero
Quote: "enough trolling me"

y u no liek it?



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nonZero
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Posted: 6th Apr 2014 14:31
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Quote: "Well, I was calling you a bad man for posting the link to the illegal RAM torrent."

Ah, wakata. Gommen, DJD-nii-chan.

Quote: "y u no liek it?"

Because it tastes too spicy.


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easter bunny
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Posted: 8th Apr 2014 10:44 Edited at: 8th Apr 2014 11:04
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[MOD EDIT] Hidden so people can have a go{/MOD EDIT]
This is cool



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BatVink
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Posted: 8th Apr 2014 11:07 Edited at: 8th Apr 2014 11:10
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@Easter Bunny, I hid it so people can have a go at solving it.

@All: It's a picture of an analogue clock where all of the numbers (1 to 12) are replaced by arithmetic expressions. They all use only the number 9, and each one has the number 9 up to three times.

To clarify, One O'Clock needs to equal one, Two O'Clock needs to equal two, and so on.

[EDIT] Each one of them can be solved using exactly three number 9s (although the picture doesn't show this). However, you are not restricted to the same format as the previous puzzle, where all of them were effectively side by side.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 8th Apr 2014 13:35 Edited at: 8th Apr 2014 13:39
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Hmm? I don't understand the displayed solutions for five and seven o'clock.

Edit Actually I do - but one uses notation unfamiliar to me and the other has a crucial symbol in the wrong place.



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BatVink
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Posted: 8th Apr 2014 15:33
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Quote: "Hmm? I don't understand the displayed solutions for five and seven o'clock.

Edit Actually I do - but one uses notation unfamiliar to me and the other has a crucial symbol in the wrong place.
"


I don't like their answer to 7, it's untidy in my mind. It could have been solved almost identically to 5, which would benefit from a set of parentheses!

I feel like redrawing this clock with 1, 5 and 7 represented better.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 8th Apr 2014 18:16
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Yep - and 9 could be simpler too.



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mr Handy
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Posted: 8th Apr 2014 23:38
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And I (1) has only two 9, not three. Fail, sort of

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Apr 2014 00:22
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Quote: "Yep - and 9 could be simpler too."
Aww now don't wear the rose colored glasses for too long, my dear.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 9th Apr 2014 02:06
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Why not?



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Apr 2014 03:28
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It is not possible to represent the value of any number more simply. It is more appropriate and formal to say "X root of (X^X)" than it is to simply say "X".

Just kidding.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 9th Apr 2014 19:50
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Did you know that you can represent the value of any number as arabic numerals?!

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 9th Apr 2014 21:23
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How about π or e?



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easter bunny
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 05:50 Edited at: 25th Apr 2014 05:52
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Solved 8 again




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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 16:51
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Quote: "Solved 8 again"


Why?



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easter bunny
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 03:39
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I ran these past a friend, but she couldn't solve 8. Unfortunately, I forgot the correct answer so I had to go re-solve it


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 13:45
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I think there's more than one correct answer for 8 but our answer is my favourite.

I hope BatVink comes up with more puzzles like this. This one gave us all a good opportunity to sharpen our minds.



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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 14:42
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Quote: "I hope BatVink comes up with more puzzles like this. This one gave us all a good opportunity to sharpen our minds."


I have lots of similar and fascinating puzzles that are from psychology studies over the past few decades, focused around why human beings are inherently irrational and make incorrect decisions and assumptions. The problem is finding puzzles that aren't already revealed on a thousand websites in one guise or another. I'll see if I can find one between now and the next newsletter.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 18:22
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Quote: "The problem is finding puzzles that aren't already revealed on a thousand websites"


I wouldn't worry about that. No-one has to look up the answer after all.

Quote: "I'll see if I can find one between now and the next newsletter."






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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Apr 2014 02:21
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Quote: "I wouldn't worry about that. No-one has to look up the answer after all."

Yes, don't try to make puzzles for people who don't want to do puzzles.

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