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Geek Culture / flame war on big corps!

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UnderLord
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 06:16
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OK so anyhow time for my weekly flame war =)


this weeks topic big corperations (is that spelled right?)

Why must they over charge us with late fee's and or high prices for stuff that is so cheap to make they reep millions off profits for over priced badly made products.

Why i ask myself?

Don't they realize that if people like me start to get fed up with it they will turn to re-sellers or people who are cheaper? like e-bay?

But maybe if they can hold out a little longer they can make enough to last them 4 life times. They should make there product with the people inmind and the common worker like myself but instead stuff that cost 10$ to make will cost over 100$ (some of it atleast) i know they need to pay there workers pay for shipping and all but i mean with that 10$ and pricing it over 100$ they can make enough to pay there workers (alot less) and then give themselfs big fat paychecks!

considering most of the stuff now adays is made in japan or china ect...they get paid like what 10$ a day maybe more or less so thats how cheap they do it and sell it here for so much more think about big profits...

Why am i flaming because im board....and big corperations bought our president...its true i think....

SO DIE BIG CORPERATIONS OR MAKE THINGS FAIR THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND NOT HOW MUCH MONEY YOU CAN MAKE!

peace out

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 06:28
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Dude, business is about making money. Bill Gates was not the best programmer, he borrowed the code for a disk management system, then added what he needed and voila! MSDOS.
Microsoft IS overpriced and their products take up too much memory..... but hey! Without them we could still be using Apples.....and that is a scary thought.
I suggest you take a course on business, start a software company, make quality software. Deal it out to major retailers, make mucho mula, expand, but don't become a corporation with a senior executive board and all that. But rewrite the way that software monopolies are run. Write bug-free OS's and apps that run smooth as silk on even the crummiest machines.

And watch the movie "Antitrust".....

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UnderLord
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 09:44
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JI - there is linux you know yes him! and linux is free (i think) and customizable...but i don't wanna learn the code to customize it =\ maybe a user friendly linux would do better =)

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mm0zct
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 15:15
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get mandrake linux then, very easy to start with, interface is almost like windows but less buggy lol. i have it set up on a pc i built from old comp bits.

http://www.larinar.tk
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indi
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 16:23
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try knoppix or redhat or GENTOO
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heartbone
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 17:51
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I hear you UnderLord.

The fat-cat 'corporate executives' are true practicing socialists. Just the descriptions have been changed to protect the guilty: company paid...expense accounts, vacations, insured car, per diem, travel, full health insurance, generous life insurance, severance packages, bonuses, stock options, house servants, relocation assistance, get the picture? True socialism reserved for the privledged few. One ugly thing is that this social class is over 3/4 the same gender and ethnicity. Another ugly thing is their corporate operations (the twentieth century replacement for the nineteenth century plantations) ALL maintain a communist political system in their workplaces for their workers. The only democratic institution permitted within the multinational corporations, the workers unions, are marginalized, persecuted and practically eliminated.

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UnderLord
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 07:22
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im in the local 655 union in saint louis we just went on strike a while back for the first time ever...boy was that lousy although i got 100$ a week for nothing =P but....

thats besides the point im quitting my job becuase i hate working for a union. Go back to my old crappy job with crappy hours but it pays 2x as well.

i hear what your sayin heartbone! wooooo! someday i'll rule the world and if not the world then the galaxy!

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JeKu
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 10:36
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Quote: "company paid...expense accounts, vacations, insured car, per diem, travel, full health insurance, generous life insurance, severance packages, bonuses, stock options, house servants, relocation assistance, get the picture?"


Excuse me for being ignorant, but this is a bad thing!?! I had to work hard for my degree so I can enjoy some of that you mentioned. I feel bad for anyone who thinks this is a negative thing. OK, I don't have house servants, but what's wrong with getting a company car? Or stock options?? What planet are you from???

Quote: "One ugly thing is that this social class is over 3/4 the same gender and ethnicity."


Yeah yeah yeah, I've heard this one before. This is only in the States I assume you're talking about. I work in Canada for a big gaming corp., and it is evenly mixed between Asian, Caucasian, Indian, Blacks, you name it. Plus there are lots of women. But because there's more guys means that less women apply at the company! One of my friends at work, a female, said none of her female friends would like her job, that she's unique to want to work on games all day. This is the company's fault!? Argh...

Go to China or other places like India. Go to their large corporations and their tech sectors. I'll bet you'll find most of them to be the same ethnicity as well. It's all relative.

- JeKu


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 11:22
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JeKu, i think they're more talking from bitter experience.
it's best to keep well out of it to be honest, as this is just another excuse to bitch about Windows retail price (wonder why OSX is never put down for being $100 more than Windows?) and then bitch about how the industry is so one sided.

the sad truth is all the racicial hype in the states actually is causing the problem rather than making awareness of it.
everyone was aware of the problem before hand, there was never a call to shove facts and make everyone act PC just because it seems the right thing to do. :: sighs ::

i dunno, i've never worked in anything outside of the games/cartoon industry really ... cept the armed force but your told what you can and cannot do and anything against that and your doing alot of manual labour. but within the more creative industries i can't say there has ever really been a gap of people who wanted to be there.

there is a simple fact that development you'll fall into 3 categories
- Talented
- UnTalented
- Talented & Greedy

you can't afford to be greedy in a job which has Zero safety margins; sorry but you can't... you either do the job cause you love it, else go into management.
hell i'm paid peanuts for my job; i don't give damn, and most people in my position don't either. Because we get to do something all day we love doing.

What the hell does it matter if we can't afford some mansion plot in the Valley? Atleast we love our jobs and we can come home actually NOT stressed even when everything seems to be crashing down; it is hard to get stressed when you get to have fun all day.
Jobs where rather than sitting there thinking "well if i do such'n'such overtime i get time and a half for that" ... you actually end up thinking two hours after work "oh, i'll be home late" you don't care if you get overtime or not.

sure everyone wants to get thier pot of gold someday to be comfortable or be able to achieve thier dreams, but also i don't have to sit there and stress about market predictions. I don't have to worry about delivery times, i don't have to worry about money in the company, infact to a point scheduals are really not even something that need to be worried about.

I create and i'm paid for it... i have no other stress than that, if some poor shmuch is being paid $100k more than me a year to sit there and just constantly stress and worry for 8-12hrs a day then so be it. Atleast i go home happy and i won't be the one keeling over from a heart attack at an early age


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heartbone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 20:29 Edited at: 10th Jan 2004 20:34
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You are absolutely correct JeKu I'm referring to the USA based multi-national corporations. From personal experience I think Canada is heaven compared to the US for regular non-corporate people.

The biggest hypocrites in the world are the COMMUNIST corporate executives. Most working Americans unconsciously know that we spend most of our waking hours in a Communist styled corporate society, but we need the money.

Maybe some are confused by all of the corporate brainwashing so let's get a few concepts clarified.

MAJOR WORLD PHILOSOPHICAL CONFLICTS
-----------------------------------
POLITICAL SYSTEMS: democracy vs. communism
ECONOMIC SYSTEMS: socialism vs. capitialism

Based on the Bible, I think that Jesus would be closest to a hippie democratic socialist rather than a corporate commie capitialist.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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Chris K
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 20:34
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Raven:

Quote: "What the hell does it matter if we can't afford some mansion plot in the Valley?"


Good job you can afford to spend $50,000 on a computer that you barely use, eh?

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heartbone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 20:38
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THE CORPORATE MESSIAH


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JeKu
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 21:33
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@Raven - I totally agree with you 100%. Again, I worked hard for my degree so, in my own example, I wouldn't have to be stuck as a game tester for the rest of my life Now I can program and work for one of the top 10 places to work in my area. Yeah I get paid peanuts too, and yeah if I went to another company to work in database dev. or worked in the hospital industry to do systems admin., I would make more money. But I stay where I am because I love it. 14, 15, 16 hour days are great when you're in a job that you love

@Chris Nott - Who said he paid for it himself? This is just a guess, but if he's using the computer for his work, his employer could have very well funded that computer system.


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Chris K
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 21:43
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Hmmm... I wonder why a programmer would need to render stuff for TV. The company just lets people have $50,000 dollar computers? Junior workers?? That they can take home?!?

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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 21:59
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Heartbone, can you stop posting this political bullsh.t? I have seen no evidence for any of this crap, and besides that your arguments are backwards-- communism is the direct opposite of our current economical culture, not the epitome of it, and that's the way I and most other people like it...

Business is about making money. That's the point. So you can afford good things for yourself and your family. Money is the merger, the in-between this and that; it's a fantastic concept and the base of a good half of our entire society. There's nothing wrong with not giving your stuff out for free. Some people like to live a good life

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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 22:02 Edited at: 10th Jan 2004 22:02
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And by the way heartbone, the major flaw in your logic is that you're acting like you have no say over what you get from the corperations. That isn't true. You work-- work a good job, job makes money, money buys from corperations, job and products earn benefits-- and you reap the rewards. Do you have a problem with working? With earning your piece of the pie? 'cuz that's how it is in the US and if you don't like it... tough...

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heartbone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 23:12
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Mouse feel free to skip my posts if they make you feel badly. I was responding to the topic in the way that I feel is appropriate. I wonder why you object to my view of democracy vs. communism as the major unresolved political issue. Obviously you disagree else you would not try to silence me. I'm for democracy and free speech. Obviously that is not you.

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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 23:58 Edited at: 10th Jan 2004 23:59
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I'm not trying to silence you and I support free speech. What annoys me is random statements with no sources, no evidence, and ridiculous conclusions. Democracy and communism brush in several areas; I'm a republican myself, though I think monarchies, republics and democracies can form good governments (there is no perfect government). Communism certainly dosen't. But your statements of 'democracy=industry=communism'-- or that's all the sense I could make out of them-- make no sense whatsoever, and again, you cite no sources and show no examples.

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 00:37
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@Underlord / Heartbone

However greedy you might think these corporations are, many of them barely make a profit.

Take McDonalds for example, the food costs nothing to make, the packaging is cheap, wages are minimal. Despite that, it posted a loss not that long ago. Corporations are hugely expensive to run, often the cost of making the product itself is not that significant. It probably costs only a few pounds to produce a copy of DarkBASIC, but TGC would never survive if it sold the package at £10.

Basic economic theory states that market forces will favour equilibrium of supply and demand. Consider eBay for instance, if enough people go there instead of buying direct - the prices will eventually HAVE to be lowered. However people don't - so prices remain high. You can have a system, as in France, where the government intervenes in certain areas to lower prices - however this results in higher taxes. Something which most people won't vote for.


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UnderLord
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 00:58
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@Raven - why don't you read the threat title? it says "Flame war on big corps" gee i wonder why people would want to bitch then eh?

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 01:22
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Raven posted an intelligent argument in a thread about that topic. Like it or not, people will disagree with you no matter how you phrase the topic title.

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empty
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 01:39
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Quote: "Take McDonalds for example, the food costs nothing to make, the packaging is cheap, wages are minimal. Despite that, it posted a loss not that long ago."

Don't know if the McDonald's corporation had a loss in 2003, however, between 1992 and 2002 they had in average net income of 1,500 million dollars (and not a single year with a net loss).

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UnderLord
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 01:51
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and as the people of the world start to become fat....then they wonder was it mcdonals?

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JeKu
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@UnderLord - No it wasn't McDonald's that make people fat. People who routinely eat lots of junk, who don't exercise, and who sit around on their couch all day make themselves fat. People in the west have a right to eat whatever they want. If they don't want to get fat, there are dozens of other places to eat that cost the same or less. Take Subway. I've found that there's lots of healthy things one can eat at Subway for a comparable cost to McDonald's. I hate when people blame McDonald's for the fat problem we have.

If McDonald's didn't exist, people would blame Wendy's. It would go on forever. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.

If McDonald's made 1.5 billion in average net income, well good for them. Success breeds inspiration, which breeds success, etc.

Heartbone - If you don't mind, where do you live? In the States? Canada? Other "western" civilizations? If so, it's pretty easy to complain about large corporations making all the money and the poor getting poorer etc. Try living in countries where there's no choice but to stay the same for the rest of your life. Where there's no option to "get ahead" which frustrates people like you. In the "west", it's the poor who have a choice to stay poor. There are countless rags to riches stories, people who were bums who ended up making scatloads of dough. What do you think about that?

- JeKu (likes ranting)


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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 02:41
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'Don't know if the McDonald's corporation had a loss in 2003, however, between 1992 and 2002 they had in average net income of 1,500 million dollars (and not a single year with a net loss).'

I'd expect far more from such a bloated corperation. Looks like they have managment issues.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 07:14
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RobK if McDonalds posted a loss it was AFTER the greedy fat cats took all the profits in executive "compensation". Millions to each no doubt. Else they couldn't hold their heads up at the country club.

Mouse I've noticed you attempt to silence others, I don't feel picked on. I've typed no random statements, they must be over your head. Please ignore them.

UnderLord I'm from St. Louis too. Sorry about those Rams, I was rooting for them but they deserved to lose that game. Yes US unions suck big time. We need to have a social democracy like in happy countries like Sweden and the Nederlands where the management of the companies actually work with and respect their workforce instead of schemeing to dominate them. The union leadership has to be very very strong here not to be corrupted, and here (in the US) it is usually the scum that floats to the top.

Jeku sorry good buddy, come again? (Could you please rephrase that?)

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UnderLord
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 07:23
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Jeku - Wrong i eat a crap load of junk food every friggin day and im 145 pounds and barly ever gain weight im such a skinny bastard.
if the food served was a little more healthy then those people wouldnt get fat sure those people that eat alot do get fat and probably do sit around alot...and its half there fault and half the companys fault for making food with such fat in it =\

Heartbone - where in saint louis do you come from? me im in richmond heights.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 07:28 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 07:31
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Mouse I don't want you to feel slighted. Here is my point restated.

The corporate executives practice socialism. Once in the class they get the benefits. They talk capitialism but practice socialism for themselves. I like socialism and wish that they would include all of us. The companies wave the flag as patriotic Americans but work hard to subvert our democracy by stifling free expression. In addition they operate workplaces managed through a communist political system. If I owned a private company I'd operate it as a kingdom, but these are publicly held corporations with vastly greater impact on society. Once you take some political science and understand what a political system is, then you'll be able to recognize the difference between a capitalist/communist society such as China and a socialist/democratic society such as Germany. Why one is good and one is bad.

There can never truly be a totally socialist society, you will always need capital.

There can never truly be a totally capitalist society, you will always need taxes.

But you can have a totally communist society, and if the multinational corporations get any stronger that is exactly where we are headed.

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heartbone
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Originally from the inner city, north side by I-70 & Kingshighway. Northwest High class of '71.

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Shadow Robert
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OT :- Chris ... where the heck do you get the idea that i was a professional programmer? o_O
i've been bought home machines before, but my Quad Opteron system isn't one of them; i've not always been a Jnr, it's just circumstances i'm in right now.

i don't have the experience to just jump into a Snr position at such a big company. i only have 5years professional experience.


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JeKu
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Quote: "if McDonalds posted a loss it was AFTER the greedy fat cats took all the profits in executive "compensation". Millions to each no doubt. Else they couldn't hold their heads up at the country club."


Pure speculation. You think that any successful company that makes millions of net a year has greedy fat cats sitting at the top making tons of dough? And if that's the case, who cares? You obviously have something against people who earn their money.

There's a billionaire who lives in my province-- he came from a lower income family. He started working at a car dealership as a salesman. After a while, he was so good at selling cars, that he bought the dealership. Then he used the profits to buy another dealership. Now, after a few decades, he's the richest guy in the province. He is not, under any circumstances, a "greedy fat cat". He still plays trumpet at his local church. He still helps new inventors get their foot in the door in the industry. He still builds new additions to schools and gives lots of money to charities.

That's just one example. I think if someone works hard for their money and they don't squander it, then that's the American (or Canadian in my case) dream. If I missed the gist of your rant, tell me in a constructively critical way.

What do you mean you would run a company like a kingdom?

- JeKu


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Chris K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 12:08
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What was your job before, Raven?
It must have been extremely well paid.

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Shadow Robert
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Senior Game Artist / Production Manager ... $85,000 p.a. (£38,000)
this rose every 6months when i asked for more pay, but in return i got more responsibilities.
This was ontop of full reallocation (at no cost to myself), a nice rent controlled house, 401k + benifits, etc...

was a good job which i ended up on around $180,000 just before i left that is. But considering we'd kept 3 titles from slipping thier release dates i think we earnt what we were all making quite rightly... we weren't paid by the hour, we had set contracts meaning if we worked our contracted 128hrs / month or 200hr+ / month we were paid the exact same

i've not jumped from Game Artwork and Management over to Cinematics which hopefully i can then move into film Cinematics at somepoint, which is paid ridiculously.

the same goes for Interior Design, because in the Valley people have like money to literally burn as alot of the big time moogles, pop stars, movie starts and such live out there... most of them are aparently pretty tight; but when it comes to doing up thier houses particularly if they know that MTV Cribs is about to do an Expo on them some very very happily paid interior designers around.

thing is as JeKu has noted, you don't just get money thrown in your lap. Most people who are million or billionaires have worked and worked very very hard for it.
really as an artist i'd have a choice, either i can work until i drop to make a better than adverage pay ... else i can change professions.

right now i'm on $15,000 p.a. (around $12/hour i believe) which for the area of the States i live in is truely horrible pay. i mean finding anywhere around for less than $400/month is a challenge, keeping insurance on cars like my imported MG-VF for a 21yo is just insanely expensive which is why i've let it slide and use my bike now. There's also the flights home just to see my family, which are around $2,800 return (and thats in traveller/coach!!).

but still i'm happy not alot to worry about hehee, just have to make sure i do some nice artwork and everyone's happy.
plus i get to work under some of the best Cinematic guys/gals in the business, plus the experience gained from where i am. really although when i get back there is a renogiation of my contract for a more reasonable living pay; i'm still happy getting peanuts. just means i can't see family as often as i'd like, or such.
that said i work 4days a week, around 9-10hrs a day doing what i love hehee


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Chris K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 12:47
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Sounds cool. Who have you worked with (as in Cinematic Guys/Gals)?

I'm honestly not trying to annoy you here, I actually want to know.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 13:04
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hmm, Cinematics wise depends; i mean professionally, just who i'm working for right now.
Toby Magure and Richard Haywood are really the guys who are currently in the little team i'm in.
But on a personal level i've worked with a few guys on some silly things. Problem is remembering what they're last names are lol

see this is why i find it so funny when people believe i'm making things up; my memory is so bad i wouldn't be able to remember if i had or hadn't.

alot of guys i've worked with hang out on the Polycount.com boards actually.
let's see i've worked Yveon Sanchez, she's a pretty good cinematic artist; she recently worked on films like 2Fast2Furious and Matrix:Reloaded.
There was Fredriqué ... something or other, Netherlands guy; fantastic artist. He does alot of the poster work for Caligari now.
David too, again can't remember the last name - but he did the "Goldfish" adverts for TV. The guy has a funny sense of humour, once sent me an mpeg of his goldfish doing the macaraina hehee
i dunno, right now i have like 5 Kevin's in my head of who i've worked with; can't think of a last name for any of them.

worked with alot of cool peeps though, and i've recently had the chance to meet some new up comming gals ... which was hehee fun


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empty
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 14:43
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I'm wondering where you get your currency exchange rates from...

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 15:00
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the exchange rates change depending on which way you go...
USD -> BPS = 0.45 ish
BPS -> USB = 1.65 ish

although the market always fluxes you generally stick to them and your about right.
it's confusing though because the more money that is processed the smaller the exchange gets because $1,000,000 = £1,000,000 (which is crazy because $500,000 != £500,000)

i believe thats about right though, because i'm sure thats how much was actually in my account before i finally got a US side account. So i got a payslip saying how much i'd been paid in USD but my money was transfered to my Natwest account that came up in BPS, then confused the whole put by using my credit card to pay for everything. Only way i got cash for the first 2months whilst the bank fart arsed around was through cashback at the local 7/11


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empty
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 15:09 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 15:10
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You're a funny guy Raven, really.

So I buy GBP 1,000,000 for USD 1,000,000, then I sell that money in small amounts and end up with for example USD 1,500,000. Why do I still work?

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 15:15
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empty i don't understand it either, and i'm being perfectly serious. i've never understood why this is, or completely how they figure it out. i'm sure someone else has heard of this fact too
you can go research this to prove me wrong if you like

and you know how often i invite you people to do that
just one of those strange but true things lol


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empty
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 16:51
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Quote: "you can go research this to prove me wrong if you like
and you know how often i invite you people to do that "

And you know how often you were proven wrong.

The exchange rates are fixed by the markets where these currencies are traded. The only thing that depends on the sum you wish to buy or sell, is the fee your bank or agency wants from you.

Anyway, $1,000,000 is not £1,000,000. And more important, $85,000 is not £38,000. The current exchange rate is around USD 1.80 to 1.00 GBP (the USD is extremely week at the moment).

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 17:06 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 17:08
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fine the check and find out for yourself...

85,000 * .45 = 38,250 ... and as i said .45 is roughly the standard exchange rate.

Quote: "Tuesday, January 1, 2002

85,000 US Dollar = 58,415.2 British Pound
85,000 British Pound (GBP) = 123,684 US Dollar (USD)"


so i was 20k out, no biggie
what i don't understand is it says the rate for that week was

1.45 GBP -> USD
0.68 USD -> GBP

wierd thing is aparently on conversion back i actually gained $200 hahaa .. well no worries anyways, most of that to getting a new version of the car i had. ^_^

and it's not like i got it in a lump sum anyways, as i was paid monthly not yearly ... plus every six months i renegotiated
i only got that cause i never got a Full working Visa, only an Emergency Skilled Worker Visa.

So every 6months they had to reevaluate if i was worth saying i was skilled enough to stay there and tell immigration ^_^


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 17:10
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didn't say you could make massive profits doing it, and i think thats why at 1,000,000 both values level out... because else everyone would be converting money back and forth.

if you think about it the larger thier money the lower the value; which encourages people to play the stock market because it's an actual gamble.


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Chris K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 17:21
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Exchange rates aren't based on how much money is being exchanged.

From Xe.com:

1,000,000.00 GBP = 1,836,502.22 USD

Seems, you're about $800,000 out, do you know where you read that the exchange rate changed for different amounts?

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UnderLord
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 18:46
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Quote: "Pure speculation. You think that any successful company that makes millions of net a year has greedy fat cats sitting at the top making tons of dough? And if that's the case, who cares? You obviously have something against people who earn their money.
"


You think someone who sits on there ass all day and dosnt do a damn bit of work in a office maybe sign 2 or 3 papers befor he leaves and fires one or two bad employees has earned there money?

A true leader of a company wouldnt sit on his ass and let others do the work a true leader goes out and help's with the work.
If i owned a company i would never sit on my ass for fear of looking like my dad but anyhow i'd go out and help people with the work im sure theres someone out there with a work load they can't handal and on the bigger point why would you need a big fat check to give to yourself if you own the company? You could give yourself the smallest check and stil lbe rich becuase you'd own a company! and a big one at that.

You see its people like you money hungry everyone needs money yes. But if you own a multimillion dollar company and sit on your ass and give yourself the biggest check out of every little person under you then you don't deserve that company.

You can fight with me all you want. But you know what? I don't care because those are my views and im sticking to them. If you don't see reasoning in my views then you should think long and hard then you'll get my views.

oh yeah BTW WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 21:35
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'If you don't see reasoning in my views then you should think long and hard then you'll get my views.'

Very childish of you. I could say the same thing to you and we'd never convince one another. But if you looked at the people you are debating with with respect and tried to understand their views, you would end up with a better understanding of them and perhaps even shake those rock solid foundations you believe are the ultimate truth a little bit

If it's truly the only right answer, then it won't hurt to actually try and understand what other people are saying, will it?

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 10:59 Edited at: 12th Jan 2004 11:01
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Quote: "A true leader of a company wouldnt sit on his ass and let others do the work a true leader goes out and help's with the work."


Right, and you're proving my point. The top business guys I know, at least the one's I'm familiar with, do work hard every day. And yes, you could hire a high school student to sign a bunch of papers and fire some bad employees, then pay him his $8/hr. minimum wage. Or you could have the guy that worked his way, slowly, to the top of the firm, over many years, and who may have personally built the company himself, to do the same job and pay him 100 x more. I believe he/she is worth it because of the hard work he put in.

If a young guy, like TOm Cruise in that lawyer movie (forget the name off the top of my head), gets moved up the corp. ladder almost immediately and starts making tons of dough--- he earned it by going to law school for 7 years.

Quote: "But if you own a multimillion dollar company and sit on your ass and give yourself the biggest check out of every little person under you then you don't deserve that company. "


Actually that's a funny statement you've made. Name me three examples of the top guy of a multimillion dollar company who works "just as hard" as the bottom lankies and makes the same amount (min. wage) based on principle. Just three examples, I'd love to hear them. That's just nonsense and you know it. It would be like Michael Eisner selling hot dogs in Disney Land for $5/hr. or Bill Gates doing telephone tech support for dial-up MSN customers

But yes, I do believe there are many people who take advantage of people from other countries to make a fast buck, and I don't know if I agree with that. Sweat factories in poor countries, for example.

- JeKu

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UnderLord
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 12:02
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@ mouse - i do

@jeku - why do i need to give you 3 you gave me one already so i'll give you two - Oil companys - tobacco companys


LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 17:45
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Somebody's got bad data.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MCD

McDonald's
FINANCIAL HIGHLIGHTS

Fiscal Year
Fiscal Year Ends: 31-Dec
Most Recent Quarter (mrq): 30-Sep-03


Profitability
Profit Margin (ttm): 6.30%
Operating Margin (ttm): 13.72%


Management Effectiveness
Return on Assets (ttm): 4.25%
Return on Equity (ttm): 9.43%


Income Statement
Revenue (ttm): 16.48B
Revenue Per Share (ttm): 12.935
Revenue Growth (lfy)³: 3.60%
Gross Profit (ttm)²: 4.66B

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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UnderLord
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 19:49
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who is that somebody?

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 20:26
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Quote: "Oil companys - tobacco companys"


Wow, Underlord, good examples you have there! Now would you mind giving a name to them? Just three names--- come on. Don't just say 'alcohol companies' etc.. because I want names

Quote: "why do i need to give you 3 you gave me one already"


Oh I did? Which one? Microsoft? How so?

- JeKu

http://www.automatongames.com/
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