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DarkBASIC Discussion / I'm mad. This gamemaker.

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ZeldaFN
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:42
Theres no way this gamemaker can make a Gamecube quality game. It's a pre-built engine. This gamemaker can only make N64 style crap.
Mattman
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:46
obviously we can't create gamcube-quality 3 million polygons a second with shaders and all, but this is for hobbyists.

Quote: "It's a pre-built engine"


it is as much as C++ is

a
Mattman
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:47
and remember, a tool is only as good as its user...

a
ZeldaFN
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:48
Oh so its definetly confirmed. I cant make a gamcube grahpics. Great. Now I have to learn c++.
Mattman
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:51
you can, just not 3 million polygons with shaders

a
ZeldaFN
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:53
So it will be like N64.
heartbone
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:54
Which ain't half bad.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
ZeldaFN
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 01:55
That sucks. It's terrible. If I have to type up 20 pages of c++ just to make a room, then I will. I'm sorry, but I cant settle for N64. What can I use to make c++ games.
Don Malone
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 02:04
The big question(s) will always be....

How much do you want to spend?
How much time are you willing to put into learning the Language or system?
How good of an artist are you or will you have a talented artist to help?

I am limited because I am not a real good artist. If I had the best system in the world I could do no better than I can in DarkBasic. I don't have that level of talent yet. Maybe someday I will improve enough to do great graphics but I have a lot of learning to do about textures and modeling.

If uou have the proper resources you would probably want Visual Stusio from Microsoft. I dont have that kind of money and if I did I wouldn't spend it on Visual Studio. I am a hobbyest and most likely have spent my last huge sum on a development system I am only going to play with; especially since the cost have gone so high.

I guess I am just advising you to know your limitations and then evaluate the other elements. I know you can do it if you have the resources.

good luck.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
ZeldaFN
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 02:06
I'm talented. I'm dedicated, so much Its all I can think about. I will have my friend and me learn it together so its easier. I have lightwave3d. Dolby digital, and need the Unix system to enter c++.
Don Malone
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 02:13
There are free C++ compilers available but I can not reccomend one because I have not used them. I am sure you can get reccomendations, if not here than other places on the web that deal with development software.

Good luck with the programming because using C++ for graphics can be difficult at times. You may want to check out http://about.com/ and see if some of the items in the computers section may be helpful.

good luck.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
Represent
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 02:16
try http://www.projectfun.digipen.edu. It is the great online gamedev (kinda) it gives you everything you need. For $15.00 per year.
MikeS
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 02:31
LOL!!

You don't have to learn C++ to make gamecube quality games.
It's all in the models themselves. (Not necessarily the shaders.)

@ZeldaFN

Trust me, no newcomer can make gamecube type games on there own. That's why it takes years for professionals to make games.

Want to make gamecube type games? Form a team with pros, and get years of experience. Game development isn't something you can just jump into.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
John H
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 03:58
Sigh, yet another crazy newcomer.

OK, go into C++. If you give up this quickly then your definatly not going to move an inch in C++...


We need help! Email us! [email protected]
John H
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 03:59
BTW - Go find another compiler, for under 100 bucks, thats easy to learn and can make Gamecube quality games, especially those fancy pants models. It has to make those as well. Please do come back when you find this.


We need help! Email us! [email protected]
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 04:22
Ummm, can computers even handle the amount of polys that game consoles can? And DBP is very capable of making things look better than N64, as that console looked horrible. As far as gamecube, I doubt you'll even reach that in C++. If you're as dedicated as you believe, then you could make a great looking game. It's just going to take you several years.
To give an example of how just changing the models affect the quality of game graphics more than actual code, think of quake. Look at Quake3. Compared to todays games, it doesn't look like much. But that same game engine was used for Soldier of Fortune 2, which looks great in my opinion. Same basic code, different models and graphics.

"eureka" - Archimedes
indi
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 05:26
This user is very naive to assume most of things they have suggested.
maximum troll bait material.
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 05:28
GIMME DA CODEZ!!!!!

"eureka" - Archimedes
Jess T
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 14:09 Edited at: 16th Jan 2004 14:10
No, he doesn't want the "codez", just the models, and the GameCube style gameplay and the ability to learn C++ in a matter of hours and punch out a game that can rival the likes of Halo and UT2003 with just two members on his "team"...

lmao...

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
Sjakie
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 17:33
You CAN build something better that N64!!! Ok, not such amazing as gamecube or something but things don't look that bad as N64 games! Get lots of 3d modeling experience and try to make your models as efficient as possible... delete all polygons that will be never seen and keep the model low poly... but not too low of course ... And setting up the game settings in DB is also veeeeeeeeeeeeery important! Here are some useful tips:

-Set the camera range not too far, this eats your FPS
-NEVER use DB build in collision... this kills your FPS to sometimes less than 5!!! Instead use math collision (there lots of posts about this check the forum)
-Only use a matrix when you really need, because they'll eat your FPS for lunch!
-Program efficiently... avoid double use of code in 1 loop
-And if this is not good enough... Buy DBPro, It has more effects
and handy commands and the best thing: Almost 2 times faster than DBC

What are you waiting for? Start programming!!!

Juzt a dude who likez progging
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 19:59
anyone look at the thread title? me thinks he's talking about the 3dgamemaker... which would also explain his reference to a pre-built engine. go on guys, read it again he probably doesn't know about dbc/p


GO TO THE ETERNAL DESTINY FORUMS!!! http://forums.eternaldestinyonline.com
Do it now!!!
Mentor
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 20:09
Quote: "Theres no way this gamemaker can make a Gamecube quality game. It's a pre-built engine. This gamemaker "


I think this guy is talking about the 3DGM, not Darkbasic Pro , either that or he is trying to run it on a onboard 8mb gfx chipset with a P300, Pro isn`t a prebuilt engine, it`s a compiler that builds a engine, you can leave out the 3d dlls and still get code that runs (if you don`t use 3D natch!!), so the "engine" varies
according to what you have written.

Pro can match the Gamecube toy thing if you have the 3D card and the CPU to handle it, and it definitley can if you write puzzle games , if you have pro then you can`t have assesed just what it is capable of in the brief (as in I never saw you ask for help once...so you haven`t been trying to do anything serious with it ) attempts you may have made to build a worldbeater program, and if you have bought 3DGM and you had asked me about 3DGM beforehand I could have told you it was pants, just intended to allow kiddys to play at codeing, I would have even given you the copy I passed onto my Bro`s kids that they gave me back

but looking at your post I feel sure you are talking about the 3DGM, try commenting on the 3DGM forums and someone may be able to help you (if there are any 3DGM forums that is)

Mentor.

System spec : Pentium 3.0Ghz, 512MB DDR, 2x160Gb HD (using icewave hd coolers ), DVD RW/CD RW (all modes), multimedia front panel, 6 way surround sound, ATI radeon 9800Pro 128mb.
Gumshoe
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Posted: 16th Jan 2004 20:41
I'm not a great programmer yet and I'm trying to learn about it slowly, I'll say this, if you have the money and want to have relly good 3d models learn 3dmax or some other similar 3d program. Bottom line it take time to get good in that, I should know, I went to school for animation at AIH and it took me 2 years just to get the hang of making good models, animate and etc. I wish you all the luck and if anyone can answer my question under get image I can maybe provide some art tips or something in that nature. Cheers
Major Payn
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 00:53
The visuals depend on the artist and the modeler if you are really good at 3d modeling you can have very good characters and models. Just look at star wraith, that game has great graphics it may not be gamecube quality but it darn good. The reason it is so good is because it has alot of good models and textures. And gamecube is using top of the line software that will cost you hundreds if not thousands of dollars!!! dbc only costs $50 or if you do like me and go to ebay you can get it for less than $5.

Alienware area 51/radeon 9800 pro 256mb/sound blaster audigy 2/5.1 surround sound speakers.
Arkheii
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Location: QC, Philippines
Posted: 17th Jan 2004 03:45
Quote: "Oh so its definetly confirmed. I cant make a gamcube grahpics. Great. Now I have to learn c++."


You wanna learn C++? 3 easy steps:

-learn c++ fundamentals
-learn win32 api and/or MFC
-d/load directx sdk and learn directx or learn opengl

Here's how to make a triangle poly in opengl. Read the comments for the copyright info coz I'm not gonna spend one hour writing opengl for a noob on my own. Go forth and learn, little 3-year-old:


Almost the same thing in DB:



So, young grasshopper thinks he's l337 enough? Dedicated my ASS.

Major Payn
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 03:50
wow I never knew how much dbc simplifies the game process oh well I still find it hard lol. After all I am nearly failing in math class so you can see why I am a crappy programmer. ha ha ha ha.

Alienware area 51/radeon 9800 pro 256mb/sound blaster audigy 2/5.1 surround sound speakers.
Arkheii
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 04:00
I just got pissed because I grew up learning DB. If the code doesn't scare him off yet, then nothing will... maybe ASM, but I'm not that dedicated

Steele
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 05:41
It's funny. I've been programming for twenty plus years now, and it is all database development and business style applications. Programming a game is something different for me. I'm just using DBC (will go to DBP very soon) and what I have isn't half bad. The thing is, it's fun to do!

In four months, I've accomplished a lot. Is it Quake 3? Hardly. Quake 1? I doubt it. But I'm proud of it and in another couple of months I hope to have it playable where I can show it to my friends. I can imagine someone saying, "It isn't Serious Sam," but I think most will say, "Wow, you did this? How?" Just me, DBC, and a low cost or even free modeller.

It isn't about trying to outdo the big companies. It's a personal satisfaction thing just to say, "I did this." ZeldaFN, this is what it's all about for most of us.

Steele

-- I straddle the line between genius and insanity. Guess which side I am on now? --
Mattman
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 05:45
I know, there is a group of kids (like all the popular ones) a year older then me I get to hang out with like 4 times a year, and once I showed them one of my games (Eventually got trashed) and i was in pre-alpha and they were impressed! just satisfaction man, not $$$. I learned that the hard way (is that nintendo calling again? )

a
The Dream Keeper!
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 13:23
@ Steele, your damned right! If i want to be a real programmer like halo, i'll learn C++. But that kills the fun

Bring fun to life!!!!!
Steele
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 17:43
I just read a few posts above. It seems people were writing while I was. LOL!!!

DB is a programming language in every sense of the word. There is no drag and drop. You have an editor and hundreds of commands and functions to choose from. The creators simplified the 3D math, and built in much of the graphics needed so that we don't have to reinvent anything.

I program for a company using Progress 4 G/L. Inside this language, they've already done all the overhead such as opening files, closing them, rollback and commit to a database and a lot of other things. This lets me concentrate on just what the company needs, and the company is worth 8 billion dollars.

Both DB and Progress are very high level languages and while I could go to C++ and do all this, give me a year or two, or I can just delve into what I want my game to do and not worry about rotation, translation, etc.

DB is a fun language to learn and fun to watch come alive with each new thing I try. I'm hooked!

Steele

-- I straddle the line between genius and insanity. Guess which side I am on now? --
MiRRoRMaN 64
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Posted: 17th Jan 2004 19:46
Such nonsence. I get this crap from sceners every day, telling me ASM is better blablabla.

I did stuff on the Amiga and they didn't even notice it was AMOS and I'm doing the same thing right now with DarkBASIC. They don't know until I tell em and then they say ohhhh crap it's basic, thats not good blabla. Right after flipping their wig at the awesome speed, gfx etc.

There's a taboo on the word BASIC, if they would have named it DarkFUSION or Wizzytechs Ubergame engine nobody would complain. I mean, nobody complains at flash, which is total crapola, and a SCRIPT engine (which is even worse, so to speak.)

It's just the name with Basic, well, people who judge a book on that cover are just narrow minded and stupid if you ask me. Have fun programming in C++, where as soon as your almost done your engine is already outdated again.

Talk about reinventing the wheel, sheesj.


amigacam.commodore.at
bob23
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Posted: 18th Jan 2004 03:14
um this makes games for the PC, if you were talking about grahpics you will need to learn how to make them very good. also the people that make GC games went to school to learn how they did not just find a c++ program and start codeing great games. Also whats wrong with N64 grahpics?(there not the best but there still good)

HI I LIKE MAKEING GAMES I LOVE ZELDA GAMES
vist my web site www.freewebs.com/bobgames
Doucan
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Posted: 18th Jan 2004 16:42
I agree with bob

A few things to say:

1. I get the "Console has better graphics than PC!" thing all the time and it bugs the heck out of me. Gamecube has very good graphics because every GC is the same so the programmers don't have to worry about whether or not the consumers will have a good enough system to handle the game because everybody's got the same thing. PC games are never really made to their full graphics capabilities so that they can market them to the average PC user.

2. Now, I'm a beginner so give me a little room. You can make good graphics with DBC or Pro if you have a good enough computer or 3D program. I've seen some really good graphics with DBP.

3. Zelda, Are you or are you not using the 3D gamemaker?

Doucan

If you come to a fork in the road, take it!

-Yogi Berra
Reaperman
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Posted: 18th Jan 2004 17:11
Quote: " Such nonsence. I get this crap from sceners every day, telling me ASM is better blablabla.

I did stuff on the Amiga and they didn't even notice it was AMOS and I'm doing the same thing right now with DarkBASIC. They don't know until I tell em and then they say ohhhh crap it's basic, thats not good blabla. Right after flipping their wig at the awesome speed, gfx etc.

There's a taboo on the word BASIC, if they would have named it DarkFUSION or Wizzytechs Ubergame engine nobody would complain. I mean, nobody complains at flash, which is total crapola, and a SCRIPT engine (which is even worse, so to speak.)"


Yes I agree.

I have worked on a few Amiga games that sold and went to No1, such as "Valhalla". That one was done in AMOS and it was not till people found out that it was in a "Basic" language that sales went down.

I have programmed in all formats, not just High Level, but also Intermediate and Low Level, but interestingly DarkBasic offers a great deal for the price and is very capable of producing commercial quality games. It can certainly produce all the "old" games and you can have a crack at making "Doom" type and "C&C" type too. In fact just about everything is within your grasp.

But as has been said before, you have to be professional over it, and have a good team along with dedication and (hopefully) some strong game design skills thrown in.
Mentor
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Posted: 18th Jan 2004 20:45
AMEN! Reaperman and Mirrorman64 have it in one!, that one little acronym "B.A.S.I.C" could kill anything dead, I was all for dropping the "basic" from the name when Pro was announced along with some other forum members, I had always suspected that anything associated with basic would suffer saleswise if the fact came out, so that some game written in Amos would lose sales once the buyers found out is no surprise to me, people are so petty, if Darkbasic Pro was called Xi eXtremE or something then people would be raving about this new awesome directx language for games and cutting it loads of slack while fighting in the aisles at the local PC shop, but call it basic and all you get is flack from everyone.

I will admit I have given DB a fair bit of flack (where required), but mainly because they obviously released it way too soon, I would have been happy if it had been at p5 status on release, but they even had some of the most basic core commands messed up to the point that you can`t convince me they ever tested them at all, why they don`t just take the ID attitude (it`s done when it`s done) I don`t know, they claimed pressure from existing customers influenced them, but would people have realy walked away and never returned if they had to wait another year?, you can bet I will be buying Doom III and Halflife II (not to mention Quake IV) when they come out, whatever century that may be and however long I wait .

I also notice this weird misconception that DB is not as "good" as the consoles, just what is that supposed to mean?, how do you compare a language to a chunk of hardware?, when was the last time you saw a console game at 1600x1200 pixels widescreen?, pro can do that if the hardware supports it, I doubt a cubetoy has the capability to do that, but you could in pro, likewise a X-box has a 700mhz cpu and a dated Nvidia (pre Fx) chipset, how does that compare to either of my systems?, I should be able to render screens better than the X_box on either of them (if all the commands worked properly I undoubtably could ), even my lower specced machine could eat the Xbox for breakfast (1200mhz AMD and FX5200 ultra), people are just making themselves look silly when they try to compare hardware to a programming language, its like trying to compare a road to a car, pointless.

I agree with the contention that the language is needlessly verbose, I personaly prefer

set object a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h

to

set object cull objnum,flag
set object wireframe objnum,flag
set object fog objnum,flag
etc

likewise

pitch object up and
pitch object down

could be

pitch object +-angle

and that makes it easier to code as well (IMO), the language certainly isn`t perfect, some of the commands seem to be just added for no good reason, some, like the "set object ambient" command are just a duplication of a function performed by the the existing set object command, but you just have to be thankful that there is a Darkbasic Pro and that we arent still discussing add ons to DB classic.

That so many DLL`s have surfaced in such a short space of time, shows (IMO) that DB still has some serious lacks and ommisions, I think that memblocks are often pulled into use to help perform actions that DB should be doing it`self, for example an explode object command should be relativley simple to add, as should commands to allow objects to follow terrain and set the matrix up to respond to lighting, or commands to allow for the creation of simple interfaces, small additions that would make external commands redundant, that they exist shows that they are possible in the first place, so why not add them in?.

Anyway, enough ranting for the moment, DB has lacks...yes, no argument here, that it is inferior to console x is so laughable I ain`t gonna debate the point, that they should have called it Xi eXtreMe or UltraDX turbo++ or whatever is debateable, what is for sure is that we have what we have got, we will get what Lee thinks the language needs, and (dons asbestos suit)....not one in 100 of the people on this forum is able to make Pro perform as well as it could, you can do a surpriseing amount of stuff in Pro if you take the time to write efficient code, once they have some of the more annoying bugs out of it then you will see more and more good code surface, the demos they have up on the site are just the tip of the iceberg, awesome games realy are possible, I know!, I have some on my HD

Mentor.

System spec : Pentium 3.0Ghz, 512MB DDR, 2x160Gb HD (using icewave hd coolers ), DVD RW/CD RW (all modes), multimedia front panel, 6 way surround sound, ATI radeon 9800Pro 128mb.
John H
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 19th Jan 2004 01:17
I think he left, realizing he was wrong


We need help! Email us! [email protected]
bob23
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Posted: 19th Jan 2004 01:53
yep I think he left also. Like you said he knows he was wrong now

HI I LIKE MAKEING GAMES I LOVE ZELDA GAMES
vist my web site www.freewebs.com/bobgames
Dave J
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 19th Jan 2004 02:44
Quote: "You wanna learn C++? 3 easy steps:

-learn c++ fundamentals
-learn win32 api and/or MFC
-d/load directx sdk and learn directx or learn opengl"


lol, well those are the exact same steps I took!


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Represent
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Posted: 19th Jan 2004 03:17
I just got a C++ compiler and a huge 2000+ page book on learining it from my library.

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